Okay, jackketch, you asked for it.

There is no such thing as a monolithic Native American (yeah, I dislike the phrase myself) religion--the 600 or so existing tribes at the time of the European invasion all had different religions. There was one concept which seems almost universal among indigenous peoples, that being animism--the idea that everything has a soul. In the words of a poem from Chuckchee (a tribe in Siberia) shamanism,"Everything that is, is alive." This produced a sort of unity consciousness--as in the Lakota phrase, "All our relations." That is, two-leggeds, four-leggeds, and all were related and all deserved respect. However, this unity consciousness did not seem to extend to other Indians--as far as I know, there was no generic word in any Indian language for "Indian" -- most used a word that is translated as "enemy" or "stranger". The Urantia Book wisely observed that we might have fought off the invaders if it had not been for our "lamentable tendency" to fight among ourselves.

(True unity consciousness has been described as the highest of the seven states of consciousness, embodied in the phrase "We are All One." If everyone subscribed to this notion and grokked it in fullness, there would be no more war, hunger, homelssness or poverty in the world. And no one would have to give up anything to accomplish this. Okay, we WOULD have to give up our fear, hatred, paranoia and so on.)


What's more, many of us massacred each other, took slaves, raped and pillaged when it served our purpose. Forget that "Dances With Wolves" stuff--that was the product of a neo-Rousseau-minded white guy.

To reiterate, at the time of the European invasion, there were roughly 600 tribes on this continent, each with its own language and religion. To get a quick view of how much these religions varied, spend a few hours comparing and contrasting Hopi, Zuni, and Dine (aka Navaho) religion and world views. They varied radically, even though all three lived in contiguous areas.

My tribe, the Muscogee Nation, called the great spirit the Master of Breath--which seems odd at first, but look at how yoga and many other spiritual disciplines stress the importance of breathing as a meditative tool. And the Christian tradition makes a big deal out of the "breath of life."

I find this information interesting.

we are All One. This is the greatest, most fundamental of all spiritual truths. If everyone today grokked it in fullness, there would be no more wars, nor hunger, nor poverty, nor hatred.

I agree with this.

So which is weirder?

Believing Raven is God or believing Raven is not God?

Or should we go with "The Tao that can be spoken is not the True Tao"?

Were there no other defining common features of their faiths, beyond this 'All Are One' thang? A shared belief in spirit/spirit possesion not only of humans (Ghost Dance?) but also of inanimate objects (manitou?)Again I''ll admit I'm a little at a loss on which descriptive terms to use....maybe ''faiths isn't really accurate, perhaps gnosis?

So which is weirder?

Believing Raven is God or believing Raven is not God?

Or should we go with "The Tao that can be spoken is not the True Tao"?

In some cultures, Raven was the trickster--corresponding roughly to Loki in Norse mythology, or Eris in Greek.

Other cultures regarded, variously, Fox, Rabbit, or Coyote as trickster.

Forget that "Dances With Wolves" stuff--that was the product of a neo-Rousseau-minded white guy.


I lolled.

And nice post. I have always been fascinated by the commonality among some traditions of people first populating the earth by emerging from caves. A sense that human beings were born from or are somehow linked with the earth. I think this is most striking with, but not limited to, the Inca, Maya, and Aztec traditions. And of course, there is a parallel with the Christian tradition as God forms man out of the ground.

Were there no other defining common features of their faiths, beyond this 'All Are One' thang? A shared belief in spirit/spirit possesion not only of humans (Ghost Dance?) but also of inanimate objects (manitou?)Again I''ll admit I'm a little at a loss on which descriptive terms to use....maybe ''faiths isn't really accurate, perhaps gnosis?

If I had to narrow it down to one, I'd sat a deep and abiding respect for the earth and the other critters that inhabit it.

As I recall, the ghost dance was a rather late development, and the gnostic thing is debateable.

All shamans are gnostic by definition, but I don't know that all tribes had shamans (all tribes had medicine men, not all of whom were shamans). Numerous tribes--but not all of them--had the vision quest tradition, which is very hard-core gnosticism in action.

To reiterate--it is VERY hard to generalize about a group of, say, 600 different tribes speaking 600 different languages--most of whom hated each other.

Bumped.

Its too bad they all hated each other.

The reds had some real wisdom. That is all I have to say about them.

Its too bad they all hated each other.

Yep. According to the Urantia Book, the European invaders would not have had a chance against us, save for our "lamentable tendency" to fight amongst ourselves.

Yep. According to the Urantia Book, the European invaders would not have had a chance against us, save for our "lamentable tendency" to fight amongst ourselves.

Do you think the quarreling amonst the native american tribes was more a result of having highly varied faiths, than anything else?

If so, could we say in a round about way, religion killed the native americans?

Awesome.

Awesome.

An entire branch of human culture nearly vanishes with very little history about it left behind, and you find this awesome?

An entire branch of human culture nearly vanishes with very little history about it left behind, and you find this awesome?

Not at all.

IF I can determine that the Indians were unable to unite against it's common enemy, directly b/c of varying religious beliefs, then it is an awesome example of the dangers of religious memes.

That should have been clear.

Look up awesome.

... then it is an awesome example of the dangers of religious memes.

Mainly the "I must be right, you must be wrong" one.

I do not think that meme is restricted to religion. ;)

Mainly the "I must be right, you must be wrong" one.

I do not think that meme is restricted to religion. ;)

It is not restricted to religion. What is more restricted to religion is the, I CANNOT BE WRONG NO MATTER WHAT EVIDENCE YOU PUT UNDER MY FUCKING NOSE one.

It doesn't have to be restricted to religion for my theory to work. Your argument is a failure. Try again.

It is funny you would put this jape here, Obbe. Did you look up awesome? Did you understand what I typed the first time, or do I need to dumb it down and repeat it for you, AGAIN?

It doesn't have to be restricted to religion for my theory to work. Your argument is a failure. Try again.

What do you even think I am trying to argue??

What do you even think I am trying to argue??

Realize it or not, that is what you are doing.

NOW, I think you may be done trying.

Realize it or not, that is what you are doing.

NOW, I think you may be done trying.

You didn't answer. What do you think my 'side' is?

Listen BP. I already agree with you that religious difference was probably the reason for the downfall of the NA's culture. I already agree that religion contains that meme.

You didn't answer. What do you think my 'side' is?

Listen BP. I already agree with you that religious difference was probably the reason for the downfall of the NA's culture. I already agree that religion contains that meme.

I see. I thought that you suggesting that the I am right you are wrong meme not being exclusive to religion, meant that you did not agree that religious differnece aided in NA culture.

I see. I thought that you suggesting that the I am right you are wrong meme not being exclusive to religion, meant that you did not agree that religious differnece aided in NA culture.

Nope. Just that the same shit could happen, to any culture, even an atheist one.

Nope. Just that the same shit could happen, to any culture, even an atheist one.

I fail to see how 600 different tribes would fail to unite b/c of atheism.

The ONLY common thread between the 600 tribes was religion. It, by it's very nature, seems to have hindered their ability to act cohesively.

How can you say the same of atheists? (btw, this is/was brokering an argument, you moron)

I fail to see how 600 different tribes would fail to unite b/c of atheism.

Do you also fail to see how that meme exists outside of religion?

How can you say the same of atheists?

What, has atheism suddenly developed more meaning then 'lacking a belief in God'?

Apparently you've never seen the episode of south park (http://www.southparkzone.com/episodes/1012/Go-God-Go!.html) where Cartman becomes frozen in ice and travels to the future.

In this future, all religions & beliefs of Gods have been abandoned. Everyone is atheist. But there are still several different 'groups' of atheists fighting amongst each other. The joke of the show, what they were fighting over, was a name to call one united group.

But cultures could clearly fight over more then a name. Whats the best economic system? How should we treat the environment? Whats beautiful? Who gets what?

Do you think the quarreling amonst the native american tribes was more a result of having highly varied faiths, than anything else?

.

Not at all. Thing is, we had not developed unity consciousness, nor had a sense of community.

As far as I know, NO tribe had a collective term for ALL Indians, and in many tribal languages "stranger"--that is, ANYONE not a member of the tribe--equalled "enemy."

Apparently you've never seen the episode of south park (http://www.southparkzone.com/episodes/1012/Go-God-Go!.html) where Cartman becomes frozen in ice and travels to the future.

But cultures could clearly fight over more then a name. Whats the best economic system? How should we treat the environment? Whats beautiful? Who gets what?

I have seen the episode. Apparently you've never seen the episode where cartman has a 20 foot tall satellite coming out of his ass that was implated by aliens.

Cite a real life example, or stop.

Cultures can fight over more than just religion. I have not been so foolish to suggest otherwise. The problem lies within the religious meme itself. Since religions require no evidence for their beliefs, they cannot be "disproven".

That is to say, when somone believes in God there is almost NOTHING you can do to correct that view. So when two people meet up and have differing Gods, there is a problem which cannot be rectified through dialogue.

Now if those who meet up, have religious cannons which tell them or give example of killing non believers..........you have a problem.

What is the best economic system? How should we treat the environment and why? These questions have more concrete answers as they are based soley in reality. They have evidence.

These matters can be resolved through dialogue. Not saying they always will. Not saying the cessation of religion will lead to a war free utopia. Just saying that problems based in reality have a much better chance of being solved in that same reality.

Not at all. Thing is, we had not developed unity consciousness, nor had a sense of community.

As far as I know, NO tribe had a collective term for ALL Indians, and in many tribal languages "stranger"--that is, ANYONE not a member of the tribe--equalled "enemy."

I thought geronimo had attempted to unite the tribes.

They quickly learned the difference between us and them, didn't they?

Seems to me all of their differences should have been resolved and united them, before the genocide was near completion. I am seriously just wondering what could hae prevented that. I don't even know if it was religion, and am open to the concept that it wasn't.

That is to say, when somone believes in God there is almost NOTHING you can do to correct that view. So when two people meet up and have differing Gods, there is a problem which cannot be rectified through dialogue.

Correct? That assumes that their belief is wrong.

Thats not the point. The problem here is not theism, it is like in the other thread, creating religions by spreading beliefs as truth.

The whole 'problem' disappears when the parties involved realize their beliefs are just that ... beliefs. They have no reason to hate others, and should realize that doing so creates many unnecessary problems for everyone.

These questions have more concrete answers as they are based soley in reality. They have evidence.

Then what is the best economic system, BP? How should society treat the aging? Should we end the war on drugs?

These seem like complex issues, but you're right, we could probably find solutions.

Maybe we will find an answer to the question of God one day too ... you have just assumed that you already have the answer.

Just saying that problems based in reality have a much better chance of being solved in that same reality.

Its that douche-attitude which creates the very problem we're talking about. Why did one tribe hate the other? Cause the other tribes beliefs couldn't possibly be true?

You can't know that, so why be a douche? If everyone stopped being douches spreading their beliefs about as truth, this problem wouldn't exist.

The whole 'problem' disappears when the parties involved realize their beliefs are just that ... beliefs. They have no reason to hate others, and should realize that doing so creates many unnecessary problems for everyone

We are not talking about normal everyday beliefs here. We are talking about beliefs that have DIRE consequences for non-believers, heretics, and blasphemers. Consequences that ARE WORSE THAN DEATH ITSELF.

That is not something most people are willing to bend on. Yes, the problem is that they make truth claims to something that cannot be proven true or false, and set up the aforementioned dire consequences to secure the meme.

As I said, people are prone to fight over anything they disagree on, but answers to those disagreements are more likely to happen if the thing they disagree upon has the ability to proven or disproven (ie has some basis in reality).

Its that douche-attitude which creates the very problem we're talking about. Why did one tribe hate the other? Cause the other tribes beliefs couldn't possibly be true?

You can't know that, so why be a douche? If everyone stopped being douches spreading their beliefs about as truth, this problem wouldn't exist.

I have admitted that I don't know that (read my response to Armsmerchant). So who is being an antagonizing douche now? Enlightenment seem a little further away, space cadet?

I thought geronimo had attempted to unite the tribes.

They quickly learned the difference between us and them, didn't they?

Seems to me all of their differences should have been resolved and united them, before the genocide was near completion. I am seriously just wondering what could hae prevented that. I don't even know if it was religion, and am open to the concept that it wasn't.

Geronimo tried to unite a few southwest tribes--which totalled maybe one percent of us.

Biggest problem was that too many of us believed the lies the European invaders told us.

Geronimo tried to unite a few southwest tribes--which totalled maybe one percent of us.

Biggest problem was that too many of us believed the lies the European invaders told us.

Such as, "Here take these blankets as a peace offering."?