I saw a video on TJM about an atheist girl who was descriminated(sp?) against because of her lack of religion. Well in the video there was a question. "How can Atheists be moral persons? How can they be good?" I'll Tell you, at least my personal experiance.

I have my own social contract. Basically, no killing, cheating, stealing, lying, anything immoral. I generally feel I am a good person. I volunteer as an EMT to help other people, using my own time to do good for others. I feel sorrow, sadness, guilt, and remorse just as much as the next person. I am compassionate towards those who deserve it.

I'm not saying that I am perfect, and I may do something every once in a while that others may see or feel to be wrong, but never anything really bad. I just don't understand how christians are unable to understand that we arent bad people, and that we aren't heathens. We are normal people like everyone else. You wouldn't be able to tell that I am an atheist unless I told you.

I just hate the misconception that christians think all atheists are heathens, devil worshipers, or bad people.
I wish people would take time to understand what atheism is. I mean, I spent 16 years learning about christianity, so why cant they learn about atheism.

Believe me, I understand. I love it when hardcore Christians of any persuasion claim the Bible to be a source of moral authority when it permits selling your daughter into slavery and stoning insolent children. And some people think spanking is bad!

Morals are not exclusive to one people or tradition. Rather, they are universal, and I believe each and every one of us to possess an innate sense of what is right and wrong. It's called conscience. And it's not dead.

i agree with you two chaps, although i call myself a buddhist, i was originally a hardcore atheist, and the only reason i became a buddhist is because the morals were what i sort of believed... the whole trying to be good to others, dont steal, dont cheat... all that mcshizzle

But over here i never seem to run into harcore religious folk that think i am heathen scum and whatnot... and i fucking live across the road from a synagogue... but i can still sorta relate

I love it when hardcore Christians of any persuasion claim the Bible to be a source of moral authority when it permits selling your daughter into slavery and stoning insolent children.


I love it when hardcore atheists claim things about religions when they know nothing about it.

I love it when hardcore atheists claim things about religions when they know nothing about it.

I love it when 'devout' christians who have never read the bible make erroneous claims about it, or deny the true statements of those who actually have.

Yes, the bible condones slavery repeatedly, going so far as to give instructions on how to beat them.

Yes, God orders his followers to happily dash children (who you have to admit are innocent) to death against the rocks.

Imagine that scene in a movie. Imagine smiling people throwing small, screaming, crying children off cliffs to blow apart, blood streaming down the stones, smashed bones and gushing organs all over the place. And the people are gleeful and smiling as they do it, having been ordered to perform this atrocity by the all loving creator of the universe.

I'm sorry, but expecting me to believe that is quite insulting to my intelligence.

Seriously, if you have devoted your life and core beliefs to a book, um, go ahead and read the damn book.

If you ever hear that form a christian just ask them, "Is the only thing stopping you from raping and murdering people everyday your belief in god"

Some will then realise that no. Some will respond by saying yes. And those people should be beaten over the head.

If you ever hear that form a christian just ask them, "Is the only thing stopping you from raping and murdering people everyday your belief in god"

Some will then realise that no. Some will respond by saying yes. And those people should be beaten over the head.

That's exactly what I said to one of the pesky mormons that comes to my house. I got into a converstaion with him, and along it, I said, "So the only thing keeping you from drinking, raping, and murdering people, is your belief in God?"

He looked at me serious, and nodded his head yes.

That was the last I saw of that fellow.

I love it when hardcore atheists claim things about religions when they know nothing about it.

I'm not going to deny that spiritual truths can be found in the Bible, but to claim that without it or God human beings would have no morals or integrity is utterly absurd. I'm sorry if you can't recognize this.

And I'm not an atheist.

Saying Athiests lack morality due to their lack of religion is like saying that people are only good because their religious beliefs hold them in check. In otherwords, people will never choose a good deed for it's own sake, just fear of supernatural punishment or desire for supernatural reward drive them to do it.

lack of religion doesn't mean a lack of social responsibility. It seems pretty obvious to me that "most" people understand what is required of them to be productive members of society, and are willing to refrain from negative actions, i.e, raping, pillaging, burning villages. You know the list, all the things the Bible says is OK if God tells you to. Don't think I hate though. The Baggitvagita(I know, I butchered the spelling) says the exact same thing, only it's Krishna to Arjuna.

Anyway, people of any religion can be quite civil, it's all about how much they are willing to adapt to the cultural norms. That's all morality is.

I'm not going to deny that spiritual truths can be found in the Bible, but to claim that without it or God human beings would have no morals or integrity is utterly absurd. I'm sorry if you can't recognize this.

And I'm not an atheist.

so your saying without christianity or the bible we'd still be cave people how do you come up with this when christianity is only 2000 years old judaism was before that but only 1000 years... are you saying that up to 3000 years ago people were feral beasts how can this be true when civilization on earth has been around longer then 20,000 years (guess but it has to be close) how the egyptians had transportation cities farming and what'd you know... MORALS up to 10,000 years ago then the sumerians before that then the countless other civilizations that were untouched by christianity. and you call it moral that the catholic church denied that the earth was not the center of the universe and imprisoned galileo in his house for the rest of his life and only less then 30 years ago forgave him let you know that when they agknoledged the earth was not at the center we had already been in space and had seen that it wasn't. or how about sodom and gommorrah if that even happened it would have been the death of thousands of people. or that they burned people alive just out of suspicion that they were demonic sorceres possesed by the devil is that moral. or that they started some of the bloodiest wars ever in the name of god(the crusades) is this your sense of morals because if this is your sense of morals i find that you my friend are more beastly then gilles de raise himself

lOL i concur. ultimately it boils donw to the fact that most heathens, and what have you believe in god and do what they feel regardless.. in any case or event fucking atheism isn't anything but an ideologic belief and it OUGHT to be treated as so. anyone who doesn't believe as such can go suck a fat one.

lOL i concur.
Of course you do. Your atrocious writing style matches evilman's to a tee. If you're going to make a sock puppet, you should at least change it up a little.

so your saying without christianity or the bible we'd still be cave people how do you come up with this when christianity is only 2000 years old judaism was before that but only 1000 years... are you saying that up to 3000 years ago people were feral beasts how can this be true when civilization on earth has been around longer then 20,000 years (guess but it has to be close) how the egyptians had transportation cities farming and what'd you know... MORALS up to 10,000 years ago then the sumerians before that then the countless other civilizations that were untouched by christianity. and you call it moral that the catholic church denied that the earth was not the center of the universe and imprisoned galileo in his house for the rest of his life and only less then 30 years ago forgave him let you know that when they agknoledged the earth was not at the center we had already been in space and had seen that it wasn't. or how about sodom and gommorrah if that even happened it would have been the death of thousands of people. or that they burned people alive just out of suspicion that they were demonic sorceres possesed by the devil is that moral. or that they started some of the bloodiest wars ever in the name of god(the crusades) is this your sense of morals because if this is your sense of morals i find that you my friend are more beastly then gilles de raise himself

I don't know what you're talking about. I find your post incoherent, I'm sorry. I think you misread me and are putting words in my mouth. I'm trying to say that people don't need religion or scriptures to be moral or ethical.

I said I think there are spiritual truths in the Bible. By that I mean things like the golden rule - love others as you would yourself. That's not hard for most people to swallow is it? Again, I'm saying that you don't need religion to accept or understand things such as the golden rule or have a sense of right and wrong.

I love it when hardcore atheists claim things about religions when they know nothing about it.

I love it when hardcore Christians assume they know everything.

I don't know what you're talking about. I find your post incoherent, I'm sorry. I think you misread me and are putting words in my mouth. I'm trying to say that people don't need religion or scriptures to be moral or ethical.

I said I think there are spiritual truths in the Bible. By that I mean things like the golden rule - love others as you would yourself. That's not hard for most people to swallow is it? Again, I'm saying that you don't need religion to accept or understand things such as the golden rule or have a sense of right and wrong.

srry i just re read your post and it said the opposite of what i thought it said lol

and to martini what the fuck is your problem

"The people's good is the highest law."

No reference manual necessary, here. Golden motherfucking rule.

the real golden rule is do what thou wilt and that shall be the whole of the law

srry i just re read your post and it said the opposite of what i thought it said lol


Don't worry about it.

I honesty don't understand the (abrahamic) religious angle for arguing for morality. Arent these people reading the same holy books as me? The god which justifies slavery, mass genocide and oppression?

Fuck, i worry about you if you take your morals from the Koran or Bible.

the real golden rule is do what thou wilt and that shall be the whole of the law

Oh sorry, I didn't know I was champoining the false golden rule.

OH NOES!

MY golden rule is "treat others the way you want to be treated"

I was not trying to imply that the Cicero quote was the golden rule, that sentence was an afterthought/addition, and left as a slightly unrelated fragment. My earlier post could be translated into cave man speak as "Do good! What you want? Do to other! Good come back!"

Naturally someone in here would pick apart my little dainty post. Probably because of the "Samuel L. Jackson-ism" that has slight emotional charge to it if read incorrectly.

To post in this forum and not be at least corrected is like shitty vegetarian food cooked by an amateur. It can't have anything with flavor, or someone's gonna be like "pass the salt, this tastes like balls, lol."

Yeah... lawl.

Oh sorry, I didn't know I was champoining the false golden rule.

OH NOES!

MY golden rule is "treat others the way you want to be treated"

I was not trying to imply that the Cicero quote was the golden rule, that sentence was an afterthought/addition, and left as a slightly unrelated fragment. My earlier post could be translated into cave man speak as "Do good! What you want? Do to other! Good come back!"

Naturally someone in here would pick apart my little dainty post. Probably because of the "Samuel L. Jackson-ism" that has slight emotional charge to it if read incorrectly.

To post in this forum and not be at least corrected is like shitty vegetarian food cooked by an amateur. It can't have anything with flavor, or someone's gonna be like "pass the salt, this tastes like balls, lol."

Yeah... lawl.

ok 2 things
1. i wasn't argueing i was just giving my oppinion.
2. do you know how many productive things we both could have done in the time it took us to type/read that post

I honesty don't understand the (abrahamic) religious angle for arguing for morality. Arent these people reading the same holy books as me? The god which justifies slavery, mass genocide and oppression?

Fuck, i worry about you if you take your morals from the Koran or Bible.

these people we call normal call us wierd and evil.
isn't it strange

I'm cool about it.

I consider being on TOTSE in general as "wasting time" so it was no bother to execute that particular sustained thought-of-a-post.

I'm cool about it.

I consider being on TOTSE in general as "wasting time" so it was no bother to execute that particular sustained thought-of-a-post.

i completely agree totse is a waste of time, so... off to bltc!!!!!

I honesty don't understand the (abrahamic) religious angle for arguing for morality. Arent these people reading the same holy books as me? The god which justifies slavery, mass genocide and oppression?

Fuck, i worry about you if you take your morals from the Koran or Bible.

Taken at the time they were written, those were the normal things. So it was moral, and quite regular. Now that things have changed, new sets of mores are being established, which is why there is such a gap in orthodox and reformed parties of any religion. And why very few people take a literal reading of any religious text. It just doesn't fit at all. So they look for the "real" meaning, so they can fit in society and maintain belief structure.

Taken at the time they were written, those were the normal things. So it was moral, and quite regular. Now that things have changed, new sets of mores are being established, which is why there is such a gap in orthodox and reformed parties of any religion. And why very few people take a literal reading of any religious text. It just doesn't fit at all. So they look for the "real" meaning, so they can fit in society and maintain belief structure.

i don't understand why people can stay in a religion when it changes every year because theres this kid that says the bible was given to whoever wrote it by god but he also says it shouldn't be read literally and he wont accept that its been rewritten so many times

I saw a video on TJM about an atheist girl who was descriminated(sp?) against because of her lack of religion. Well in the video there was a question. "How can Atheists be moral persons? How can they be good?" I'll Tell you, at least my personal experiance.

I have my own social contract. Basically, no killing, cheating, stealing, lying, anything immoral. I generally feel I am a good person. I volunteer as an EMT to help other people, using my own time to do good for others. I feel sorrow, sadness, guilt, and remorse just as much as the next person. I am compassionate towards those who deserve it.

I'm not saying that I am perfect, and I may do something every once in a while that others may see or feel to be wrong, but never anything really bad. I just don't understand how christians are unable to understand that we arent bad people, and that we aren't heathens. We are normal people like everyone else. You wouldn't be able to tell that I am an atheist unless I told you.

I just hate the misconception that christians think all atheists are heathens, devil worshipers, or bad people.
I wish people would take time to understand what atheism is. I mean, I spent 16 years learning about christianity, so why cant they learn about atheism.

Atheists are not Satanists, we give a middle finger to both God and the fuckin devil himself cuz we dont believe in some quakery-induced bullshit invented by some rich sheep farmers two fucking milleniums ago.

Where is morality derived? If you ask me: I dont mindlessly follow some obscure BOOK and dont need to in order to tell right from wrong. I like to apply some critical thought to whatever philosophy I'm being fed before swallowing it. My morality is derived from personal experience to where I've gained understanding for what it means to be unfortunate, distraught etc. I would not start shit with anyone (although I easily could) and generally... the Golden rule: wouldn't do bad shit to anyone that I wouldn't want happenin to me. And although I think alot of christians are controlling moronic freaks, I realize I got no right to tell anyone what to believe and how to live and actually I wouldnt approve if christians were being singled out of the constitution and were having their rights violated only cuz of their religion/lifestyle.

It's all about having the capacity to have a heart and understanding for other people.

This is a tired conversation, but I'll take a turn spouting the tired talking points.

Speaking as an Atheist, I would find great difficulty trusting someone who would ask such a question.

What does it say about them that they think someone without religion is a complete loose cannon?

I think that it says that they are a complete loose cannon themselves and religion is the only thing keeping them in control.

Considering how eager religious leaders are to release their flock from their guilt, I don't consider it a very effective control at all, and don't find it very comforting to know it is all that is keeping you from freaking out and going ape shit.


I can speak for no one but myself, but I don't go ape shit, because I don't consider it an effective means to my goals.

I'll do you a favor and suggest that you make a habbit of never putting yourself directly in between ape shit and someone's goals. Nothing keeps ape shit in control including religion, outside of putting in place more obstacles than the bannana is worth. Anything else is a craps shoot.

Nothing keeps ape shit in control including religion, outside of putting in place more obstacles than the bannana is worth. Anything else is a craps shoot.

Religion is exactly what keeps them in control specifically because there are "repercussions", i.e. going to hell, reliving life, etc. . .

Which is worth more to you: Killing someone who annoys you and losing your chance at immortally existing with some god, or Killing him and going to hell.

Oh, I forgot, the oogy boogy unforgivable sins...

I think hell is a bit redundant. We have CSI miami now.

I love it when hardcore atheists claim things about religions when they know nothing about it.


What makes you say that athiests dont know about religion? I mean, I spent a good 16 years learning about christianity. I have read the bible. I don't understand how people seriously expect others to believe the fairytales portrayed in the bilbe. Like that of Noah and his arc. That is just absurd. expecting people to believe that the world was flooded and that one man and his family saved all those animals and billions of species of insects and bacteria and what not, and then repopulated the world, in just a few thousand years? give me a break. I just don't get how you people can be so blinded. I bet that christians would even ban Dihydrogen Monoxide.

P.S. W00t on my thread being in hot topics.

Atheism does go hand in hand with Nihilism.

Unless you follow the dogma of morality without ever questioning it.

My ethics are based on the fact that I have instincts and feelings, and they must be there for a reason - so my ethics are based on what I am "meant" to do.

What makes you say that athiests dont know about religion? I mean, I spent a good 16 years learning about christianity. I have read the bible. I don't understand how people seriously expect others to believe the fairytales portrayed in the bilbe. Like that of Noah and his arc. That is just absurd. expecting people to believe that the world was flooded and that one man and his family saved all those animals and billions of species of insects and bacteria and what not, and then repopulated the world, in just a few thousand years? give me a break. I just don't get how you people can be so blinded. I bet that christians would even ban Dihydrogen Monoxide.

P.S. W00t on my thread being in hot topics.

and in the times span they say it happened there is physical proof that civilization existed
but they will never understand that because they say you shouldn't take it literaly but if you dont take it literaly than what were the stories about the dragon of the sea powered by the beast of the 10 heads with the 7 crowns upon the 10 horns and for all you christians who dont know what that is woot i know more about it then you haha but seriously has anyone read that part of the bible and got any meaning out of it other than god gets jealous sometimes?

Atheism does go hand in hand with Nihilism.

Unless you follow the dogma of morality without ever questioning it.



I'm not completely sure about that. I know plenty of people who are atheist, but not nihilist. Atheism doesn't exclude social awareness, and that's all morality is based on.

I do not believe in God.
I do not believe in Heaven, Hell, or Purgatory.
I do not beleive in souls.
I do not beleive in angels.
I do not believe in any supernatural or spiritual forces.
I am atheist.


Atheism has nothing to do with rejection of morals or ethics. Atheism is the disbelief of supernatural or spiritual entities, such as God(s).

Lack of spiritual belief does not deny us of judgement of right or wrong, good or bad, moral or immoral. These are completely seperate ideals, and are completely independant of eachother.

When will Christians and other theists just learn this?

______________________________________
www.oddspot.org

Christians: Does 'good' things because they're afraid to suffer for an eternity in the fiery pits of hell.

Atheist's: Does 'good' things because they feel that it's the right thing to do.


Now you tell me who is morally fucked up.

Christians: Does 'good' things because they're afraid to suffer for an eternity in the fiery pits of hell.

Atheist's: Does 'good' things because they feel that it's the right thing to do.


Now you tell me who is morally fucked up.

Quoted for motherfucking truth!!!!

I'd give you +5 for that if I could.

Christians: Does 'good' things because they're afraid to suffer for an eternity in the fiery pits of hell.

Atheist's: Does 'good' things because they feel that it's the right thing to do.


Now you tell me who is morally fucked up.

Have you developed your own philosophies or have you adopted society's? I believe they are fundamentally derived from Christianity.

Have you developed your own philosophies or have you adopted society's? I believe they are fundamentally derived from Christianity.

I do not question the morals, but the reason for obeying them.

If you're only being moral because of the big camera in the sky, then you're not being a true Christian.

When you let another driver pass you on the freeway, is it because you're afraid God will send you to hell? Atheists have far lower rates of imprisonment than their percentage in the general population, and it's slightly higher with Christians (from the half dozen other threads on this subject). The thing is, a morality of fear is easy to shed; but atheists constantly work on their morals knowing that no matter what the rationalization, there's still no reason to not be a good person towards others.

When Christians shed the "morality of fear", they tend to go apeshit and do whatever they want without the "morality of kindness" to follow along. Atheists tend to go along with the latter, and that is why they are more moral (judging from the prison statistics).

I love it when 'devout' christians who have never read the bible make erroneous claims about it, or deny the true statements of those who actually have.

Yes, the bible condones slavery repeatedly, going so far as to give instructions on how to beat them.

Yes, God orders his followers to happily dash children (who you have to admit are innocent) to death against the rocks.

Imagine that scene in a movie. Imagine smiling people throwing small, screaming, crying children off cliffs to blow apart, blood streaming down the stones, smashed bones and gushing organs all over the place. And the people are gleeful and smiling as they do it, having been ordered to perform this atrocity by the all loving creator of the universe.

I'm sorry, but expecting me to believe that is quite insulting to my intelligence.

Seriously, if you have devoted your life and core beliefs to a book, um, go ahead and read the damn book.

Before I begin, let me state I'm not really arguing with ya, just trying to shed some light on the structure of the OT texts that indeed do condone the killing of entire peoples, and the possible reason why.

Try not to mistake the instructions of the warrior or the priest as the social instructions of the Israelites. Never are the civilian Israelites instructed to kill anything but livestock. The military arm of Israel, on the other hand, is instructed to wipe out entire peoples, livestocks, and crops in order for the civilian population to survive...remember, Israel formed from tribes of nomads journeying through a desert. They had no crop, no livestock, no way to survive but to purge and populate. Life cannot be without death...that's not a biblical principle...but that's the way it is, and very likely the reason the Israelite military is instructed to slash and burn everything from children to fields in their military campaigns.

On slavery (Irrelevant to the point you made, but a thought that occurred to me):

You know that slavery is still universally condoned? If you don't think so, chances are that you're a part of the slave class, working harder than the free class and coming out of it with a sliver of the money you earned them...just enough to feed yourself, clothe yourself, and stay just happy enough to lie yourself into thinking you're not a slave. Make no mistake about your slave status. All you have to do is ask yourself if you can stop serving the rich and survive.

Even to this day, the slave drivers...I mean, government officials...are still instructed in effective ways to punish the dissenters. IRS, DoC, and so on. [If you're not in the US, lemme know the country so I can get the names of your equivalent agencies...I wouldn't want this idea to be lost over something small like that])

...are more moral (judging from the prison statistics).

Following the law has nothing to do with being moral. Is it immoral to walk drunk down the street? Drive too fast? Spray paint a building that's been abandoned for 80 years? Listen to music too loud? Drive uninsured? Unlicensed? Have no shame in your naked body?

These actions may be 'classless', but they're certainly not evil. Any one of those things will at least land you in a holding cell for a couple hours...one of them will even have your name on a publicly available sexual predator list (effectively ruining any chance you had at a career or social life)! Funny how useless statistics are when you take the time to think about the reality behind them.

By the way, I've been to jail several times. Each time for crimes completely unrelated to issues of empathy. While in jail, I came to realize that almost every person in there was in for something completely unrelated to morality. Almost every crime that exists is designated a crime because it upsets the social order. Free action leads to free thought, and free thought leads to free life.

Law enslaves more effectively than religion ever could...why do you think the governments of the world are letting religions die off? Did you think the upper caste suddenly decided to share their power with 7 billion people?

Long post about morality

Your criticisms are false due to the fact that the majority of prisoners are incarcerated due to drug charges (depending on which statistics you believe), upwards of 70%.

Is it moral to take drugs? I guess it's subjective but even if it was right, people of all religions still know that doing so will get them in trouble with the law, and staying on the right side of the law is (at least I would argue) a virtue in itself. Regardless, there are small atheist populations in prison for crimes that everybody would agree are immoral (such as the one that is bolded).

Atheist Prison Population
Canadian Prisons 1925 Ca. prisoners Atheist/ Agnostic, non-religious Uniterain 0% 0 of 1,2061 Steiner and Swancara
Prison Population executed for murder at Sing-sing 1925 US Sing-Sing Pen. non-religious 0.33% * "The New Criminology," Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith
Prison Population 1925 US Prisoners convicts without
religious training 0.1% * "The New Criminology," Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith
Prison Population 1997 U.S. Prisoners Atheist 0.209% 156 of 74,731 Federal Bureau of Prisons +


from http://atheistempire.com/reference/stats/main.html

Your criticisms are false due to the fact that the majority of prisoners are incarcerated due to drug charges (depending on which statistics you believe), upwards of 70%.

Is it moral to take drugs? I guess it's subjective but even if it was right, people of all religions still know that doing so will get them in trouble with the law, and staying on the right side of the law is (at least I would argue) a virtue in itself. Regardless, there are small atheist populations in prison for crimes that everybody would agree are immoral (such as the one that is bolded).

Atheist Prison Population
Canadian Prisons 1925 Ca. prisoners Atheist/ Agnostic, non-religious Uniterain 0% 0 of 1,2061 Steiner and Swancara
Prison Population executed for murder at Sing-sing 1925 US Sing-Sing Pen. non-religious 0.33% * "The New Criminology," Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith
Prison Population 1925 US Prisoners convicts without
religious training 0.1% * "The New Criminology," Max D. Schlapp and Edward E. Smith
Prison Population 1997 U.S. Prisoners Atheist 0.209% 156 of 74,731 Federal Bureau of Prisons +


from http://atheistempire.com/reference/stats/main.html

For the same reason atheists justify their disbelief and disobedience of religious law, I justify my disbelief and disobedience of human law. Is it truly a virtue, in your eyes, to refrain from an activity because the bandwagon has decided to ban it and punish those who dissent? If so, then why is it not also a virtue of yours to refrain from disbelief in god because the bandwagon has decided to shun and mistreat those who dissent? Oh...because you think the covenants are bullshit? Yeah...just like the social contracts are bullshit.

Obey or be punished: Creed of religion and society both. Fuck them both.

Addendum: Funny that our posts were the same length, but you simply ignore mine and claim it's a 'long' morality post (If that's 'long' to you, I wish you luck with your second grade reading comprehension tests!). Nay, it was a post about the uselessness of statistics when taking the reality of life experience into account.

For the same reason atheists justify their disbelief and disobedience of religious law, I justify my disbelief and disobedience of human law. Is it truly a virtue, in your eyes, to refrain from an activity because the bandwagon has decided to ban it and punish those who dissent? If so, then why is it not also a virtue of yours to refrain from disbelief in god because the bandwagon has decided to shun and mistreat those who dissent? Oh...because you think the covenants are bullshit? Yeah...just like the social contracts are bullshit.
Religion is subjective; if I felt the presence of a god or believed the rationality for believing in one, I could very well be a theist, it's not because the covenants are bullshit and I want to stray from the bandwagon, it's just the way I feel and what my mind and soul have revealed to me. Social contracts are subjective; prove that society shouldn't murder. You can't. I accept parts of the social contract, but not all, that's just my subjective reasoning at work. I'm not opposed to murder because society is, I personally feel that taking another life is wrong for personal reasons, and I don't believe that's slavery to the social order just like Christians don't believe they're slaves to it either. But for example, I'm not opposed to shoplifting because it's a social equalizer, among other reasons; that goes against the social contract, but I'm willing to take that view because it coincides with what I feel, and it's not just because I want to rebel against the social norms, but I have personal reasons for my morality.

Addendum: Funny that our posts were the same length, but you simply ignore mine and claim it's a 'long' morality post (If that's 'long' to you, I wish you luck with your second grade reading comprehension tests!). Nay, it was a post about the uselessness of statistics when taking the reality of life experience into account.

Your post provided little substantial arguments but plenty of examples; I merely felt it would be easier to take them out in one fell swoop. I wish you luck in not using logical fallacies in your arguments.

Does murder have nothing to do with morality?

There's no such thing as morality. Or rather, since it's completely and utterly subjective, with millions of different people believing millions of different things, it becomes inconsequential.
An action cannot be 'good' or 'bad', except in your own mind. Who are you to say that murder, or rape, or taking drugs, is wrong? Or that kindness, compassion and humility are right?

This isn't to say you need to be a complete fuckass and go round fucking shit up just because you can (although certainly, you can). I think that once people start doing the things they want to do simply because they want to do them, and not because they feel they need to comply with some set of morals or ethical guidelines, we will truly have mastered ourselves as humans.

Religion is subjective; if I felt the presence of a god or believed the rationality for believing in one, I could very well be a theist, it's not because the covenants are bullshit and I want to stray from the bandwagon, it's just the way I feel and what my mind and soul have revealed to me. Social contracts are subjective; prove that society shouldn't murder. You can't. I accept parts of the social contract, but not all, that's just my subjective reasoning at work. I'm not opposed to murder because society is, I personally feel that taking another life is wrong for personal reasons, and I don't believe that's slavery to the social order just like Christians don't believe they're slaves to it either. But for example, I'm not opposed to shoplifting because it's a social equalizer, among other reasons; that goes against the social contract, but I'm willing to take that view because it coincides with what I feel, and it's not just because I want to rebel against the social norms, but I have personal reasons for my morality.



Your post provided little substantial arguments but plenty of examples; I merely felt it would be easier to take them out in one fell swoop. I wish you luck in not using logical fallacies in your arguments.

Does murder have nothing to do with morality?

Hmm, I'll just say this: Good response. No further points to address. :)

Hmm, I'll just say this: Good response. No further points to address. :)

I responded to you point by point, if you don't think that's sufficient, that's not my problem, I argued the facts, it's up to you to accept them.

Unless of course that wasn't sarcasm.

I responded to you point by point, if you don't think that's sufficient, that's not my problem, I argued the facts, it's up to you to accept them.

Unless of course that wasn't sarcasm.

It wasn't. If I didn't respect your argument I'd have hijacked the thread. :)

I think a problem those of belief have is that they don't picture the biblical scenes spoken about in the bible and other texts as a reality.

If you imagine, as someone said, people being beaten to death with stones, in fact...go on the internet and look for one from Iran or Saudi Arabia! and see how disgusted you are.

Most people, i believe, are rational....even those of religion....they just cant separate out the reality of what certain practices look like and ARE, and what they personally want to believe is true.

It wasn't. If I didn't respect your argument I'd have hijacked the thread. :)

Okay, thanks. :)