alright, i just had a discussion with my friend, where i explained my religious beliefs to her. she pretty much didn't know what to believe, but i think she may have adapted all (if not some) of my ideas. tell me what you guys think. and, sorry in advance if my beliefs were already told by somebody else.
Keep in mind, there are many other things i haven't discussed yet that people may question, but i'll get to that later.

Susan says:
I was baptised as a "catholic" which was not my choice of course cuz i was a baby so i don't really believe in that kind of thing at all
mike says:
as was I
mike says:
all i believe that they tought me
mike says:
was that jesus was a guy who taught people a way of life that would benefit everyone and just had a nice way of living and interacting with people
mike says:
not the other stuff
Susan says:
It just seems kind of iffy with me i mean i know that we need to trust the thought that he might or might not be there
mike says:
but think about this.....
mike says:
all the things (human condition, state of mind, etc..) were supposedly made BEFORE God said it wasn't ok, so it's as if he wants us to suffer. so, yeah, it's bullshit
mike says:
all the things that made you wanna sin
mike says:
he made us want to do
mike says:
so, i call bullshit
mike says:
but here's the thing
mike says:
i think jesus was a real guy who came down and taught as about a better way of living, as did Buddah and such other "prophets"
mike says:
but the people were so obsessed that they turned it into something it's not
mike says:
and turned the poor guy's life into a story that negatively influences everyone
Susan says:
Exactly, that's a really good way to look at it
mike says:
yeah
Susan says:
I'm just glad neither of us is exactly all that religious when it comes to talking about this. Because, i've known people to freak out at the thought of atheist which is just obserd
mike says:
don't get me wrong, i like the fact that christians like to practice a religion where they have to be good to other people, i just don't like the whole threat of hell.
mike says:
however, i'm not athiest
Susan says:
Well, technically neither am i. But, i really wouldn't consider myself anything at this point. Because i don't know believe in some things that some or most religions believe in. So, i guess you could say i am my own religion
mike says:
exactly as i am
mike says:
however
mike says:
because i believe that my "religion" is exactly pinpointed based on my beliefs, i don't think it should be a religion, just What Is
mike says:
it's like saying if you believe in evolution, then it's a religious belief or religion
mike says:
it's not, it's just an idea you think is right
mike says:
even if your life revolves around it
Susan says:
Yeah, i'm really glad at this point that we can agree with eachother on most of these parts. Because, from what i so far see in you from the other side of my computer. You're a dominant person and that's great. but, so am i and that would just be bad in my opinion to argue about "religion"
mike says:
but, because of the fact that whatever "religion" is correct is inevitable, so a simple exchange of ideas wouldn't be considered an "arguement", because it's not a suitable topic for arguement
mike says:
if u don't mind me asking, what are your views on the afterlife?
Susan says:
Honestly, i'm still thinking about that at this point. But, so far i would have to say....that i think there is an afterlife it might not be in this magical place that people call heaven or hell. Sadly, to me i look at it in two different views.
mike says:
may i give you my views on the matter? after you're done speaking, of course...
Susan says:
Sure, you can go ahead now. Because, honestly i'm just iffy on the subject of afterlife. I'd rather not think about things like that i guess is why
Susan says:
I honestly love hearing your opinions
mike says:
well, first off, i think we do have souls. (i don't know whether "we" should refer to people, all animals, all living things, but w/e). anyway, because of the direct and proven spiritual connection related to sleep (lucid dreams, OBEs) i think that once our body stops, our minds (meaning souls, not brains) go back into a spiritually connecting dream state, but (i'm still typing hold on)
mike says:
but break a link with out bodies, putting us in a state where we can experience a permanent lucid dream-like "heaven", an ideal state created in our minds, because of spiritual connections, and possible shared dreams, i also think you can interact with other souls that are not in the body, perhaps even souls that are still inside people, (based on ghost sightings, aliens, etc...).(i'm typing)
mike says:
in such case, because of the lost limitations of our physical bodies, i think we can return to life (again, either in all animals, just humans, etc) on Earth, where we know life exists, but perhaps on other places where there is physical life
mike says:
the good news is...
mike says:
once we die, we enter a state of infinite information on the universe, so at every other spiritual point in our existence, we'll come to the same realization i came to now
mike says:
but here's two varying beliefs i've been working on
mike says:
it could be that humans are the only ones capable of forming spiritual ideas, thus making them the only ones that have souls. it could be though, that animals have an even more dominant idea, in which case, they'd have souls too. but, i've been considering one celled living particles, plants, etc...which could have them too. and then i asked myself, why would you choose to come back as each...
mike says:
different life form. and i found an answer...
mike says:
because each person's existance is kind of dependent on the fact that something made us (i think we all form "god", each and every soul), i think we may have an actual emotional (spiritually or physically related) need to contribute to each other's physical existance. don't get me wrong, i think that we could create new physical forms and such, but Earth was created for the vast forms of (hold on)
mike says:
interaction between souls. so, i think, souls (people, entities, whatever) who are dedicated become long living animals that support the ecosystem, humans, etc... and souls who want to have little part, and who don't want to have any pressure if something goes wrong, play their part by being one of many plants, cells, etc....
mike says:
but here's the thing with people who thought they could change things for the better....
mike says:
such people who fucked up as george bush, hitler, etc...
mike says:
when they die (or already died) they're going to realize that everything was already ideal, both in their spiritual form and in the physical world, thus, they'll understand that what they were doing wasn't the mission they sent themselves down for. that, along with other factors, should (and will) make them feel like dicks for getting influenced beyond their spiritual forms in the physical world,
mike says:
but, alas, certain parts were beyond their countrol
mike says:
however, some weren't
mike says:
so, in short, they fucked up a good portion of their existance
mike says:
but it's ok (or will be when they die and come into realization)
mike says:
but there is a bad trait in me
mike says:
i can't stand people's ignorance to my ideas, even though everyone didn't (or couldn't) come to my realizations.
mike says:
such as when people mourn for important people
mike says:
they all say it's bad the person died after having had an amazing life
mike says:
but
mike says:
after that person dies, comes to his or her realizations, and realizes that they did help using their chance in the physical world, that person is going to be the happiest person in the situation

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except I read the first two lines...

And are your names seriously Susan and Mike?

"anyway, because of the direct and proven spiritual connection related to sleep (lucid dreams, OBEs) i think that once our body stops, our minds (meaning souls, not brains) go back into a spiritually connecting dream state,"

Sorry to burst your seemingly well thought out ideas but there is no "spiritual" connection with dreams. Its chemical processes going on in our brains. Want proof? Take some LSD.

C'mon, SOULS?!?
That's the biggest piece of bs, bigger than Jesus or Heaven & Hell. It's like something out of a really nutty sci-fi book. See, there's this supernatural thing that's inside of us, this godstuff material which somehow exists in a physical world, which means we'll never be able to find any support for it whatsoever. Then when your life is over in this realm, you get to keep on living through this magical orb ball spirit in another realm foreverr and everrr, wheee.

Replace "soul" with "consciousness" if you'd like. It's not so nutty when you think about it - we are aware in a way that other animals are not, but we can't find any biological reason for our consciousness... now where the hell does it come from? What IS it that separates us from the other animals? It's consciousness, but never in a million years will the elusive origin of our self-awareness be discovered.

Replace "soul" with "consciousness" if you'd like. It's not so nutty when you think about it - we are aware in a way that other animals are not, but we can't find any biological reason for our consciousness... now where the hell does it come from? What IS it that separates us from the other animals? It's consciousness, but never in a million years will the elusive origin of our self-awareness be discovered.

Simply because we're aware of ourselves in a more heightened fashion than the lesser animals (yes, we're animals as well) does not mean that they are without consciousness. How could a being survive without some measure of awareness? I would say the only factor differentiating us from the animal kindgom is that of wisdom. The ability to ascend in cognition, as well as consciousness.

Simply because we're aware of ourselves in a more heightened fashion than the lesser animals (yes, we're animals as well) does not mean that they are without consciousness.

Yes it does. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness)

How could a being survive without some measure of awareness?

Instinct. Survival and reproduction are the only reasons any animal does anything.

To the OP:

Have you been watching Waking Life?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness Yes it does.
No where does this Wikipedia article say that animals are without consciousness. Next time extract a phrase from a link if you believe it somehow proves your point.



Instinct. Survival and reproduction are the only reasons any animal does anything.
What are you trying to prove?

You have stated before that we don't know how to define consciousness, so what is it about consciousness you are arguing for or against?

All sorts of animals show clear signs of being conscious. My cat is certainly conscious. But he isn't self-conscious. In other words, he isn't aware that he is aware - and he can't recognize his own reflection in a mirror. It is probably true to say that only humans and a few other very advanced animals can be self-conscious.

Defining consciousness in terms of itself (subjectively) is useful for the purpose of asking these questions and tackling them philosophically but useless from a scientific point of view because you have defined consciousness in such a way that it is irreducible to the physical world.

The problem of why we are self-conscious is probably easier to answer than the problem of why we are conscious at all. Self-consciousness is the result of increased cognitive capacity. We are clever animals.

Can you stop hijacking threads to make some sort of proof for souls based on the erroneous notion our awareness of ourselves does not reside in the brain? You can always start your own thread instead of attempting to replace 'soul' with 'consciousness' and getting everyone off topic. There is a correlation between advanced, complicated brains and behavior we identify as being associated with self-consciousness. The problem, as I explained above, is providing a scientific definition/explanation of why there is any such thing as consciousness at all. Science can therefore help to explain the "self-" bit of self-consciousness, but has serious problems with the "consciousness" bit.

You can't logically replace 'soul' with 'consciousness' and then claim we can't find any biological reason for our consciousness/soul. We would first have to prove a soul exists before we entertained a reason. There is no evidence for a soul and without a clear-cut definition of consciousness, your argument is meaningless.

If you'd like to discuss this further, start your own thread as I won't (and I hope no one else does either) further entertain your hijacking of threads because you are intent to bring every discussion down to a debate on consciousness.

Yes it does. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness)



Instinct. Survival and reproduction are the only reasons any animal does anything.

I guess all the loving relationships people have with their pets are nothing more than instinctual. Not to mention the strenuous training and accomplishments many animals go through in order for them to complete a task we're less adept at doing physically.

Instinct. Survival and reproduction are the only reasons any animal does anything.

You forgot emotion and cultural/religious dogma.

You try to hard to appear intelligent.

You try to hard to appear intelligent.
I hate it when people try to hard.

You try to hard to appear intelligent.

Maybe I would appear less intelligent if I would only speak as poorly as you do...

xray: I did not realize that I was committing such a heinous offense as thread hijacking. I will go take my raving lunatic drivel somewhere else. Thank you for your time.

All things have a soul.

That post was "obserd."

Anyway, way to go. Always think for yourself, if something doesn't make sense (Christianity, etc.) read up on it and make your own decision. Don't let your parents or your society or your friends make your decisions for you.

Don't let your parents or your society or your friends make your decisions for you.

QFT. :-)