Think about it, I kill 3 people in one day b/c I got drunk and they pissed me off. Because I made this one mistake I have to spend FOREVER in torture...Now that doesn't seem very fair...shouldn't it only be like a couple years or days...I mean its non-stop torture. That sucks. You think they would have made something up more reasonable...but then of course they wouldn't be able to control people and scare them into thinking they have to be perfect, flawless people who will go to hell if they arn't.

Think about it, I kill 3 people in one day b/c I got drunk and they pissed me off. Because I made this one mistake I have to spend FOREVER in torture...Now that doesn't seem very fair...shouldn't it only be like a couple years or days...I mean its non-stop torture. That sucks. You think they would have made something up more reasonable...but then of course they wouldn't be able to control people and scare them into thinking they have to be perfect, flawless people who will go to hell if they arn't.

"Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit."

Ephesians 5:18

You could either interpret that as not being allowed to get drunk.

Or you could interpret that as being able to get drunk as long as it's not on wine.

Other passages: Proverbs 23:29-35 , 1 Corinthians 6:12 , 2 Peter 2:19 , 1 Corinthians 8:9-13 , 1 Corinthians 10:31 .

Think about it, I kill 3 people in one day b/c I got drunk and they pissed me off. Because I made this one mistake I have to spend FOREVER in torture...Now that doesn't seem very fair...shouldn't it only be like a couple years or days...I mean its non-stop torture. That sucks. You think they would have made something up more reasonable...but then of course they wouldn't be able to control people and scare them into thinking they have to be perfect, flawless people who will go to hell if they arn't.

It's perfectly fair. If you made a mistake, it would be perfectly possible to ask forgiveness for the mistake.

It's perfectly fair. If you made a mistake, it would be perfectly possible to ask forgiveness for the mistake.
It's still not fair, worship God or suffer for all eternity. What if I don't want to worship some dude I've never met?

there are even less fair things in christianity like the fact that all who dont believe in god and except jesus go to hell. doesn't that damn just about every single human being that lived before jesus's coming 2000 years ago. so wouldnt that make everyone who lived before the year 0 damned to an eternity of torture just because jesus hadnt come yet

there are even less fair things in christianity like the fact that all who dont believe in god and except jesus go to hell.

Whether it is fair or not is questionable. But you're right those who don't believe in Christ are condemned already.
See: John 3:18 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203:18&version=9)


doesn't that damn just about every single human being that lived before jesus's coming 2000 years ago. so wouldnt that make everyone who lived before the year 0 damned to an eternity of torture just because jesus hadnt come yet

No.

Unless there really are 9 levels of Hell. then the only one you have to worry about is the 9th level, but that's reserved for traitors and mutineers

relax, OP.

hell is a myth.

relax, OP.

hell is a myth.

We make hell in our own image.

So say hell exists as described by Christians and you're sent there. Many Christians say that you'll feel eternal pain and shit. Think about it though. If you're feeling pain for eternity, it wouldn't feel like pain, would it?

This all goes back to the "you can't feel happiness without feeling sad" thing.

This was even brought up in The Simpsons.

Bart (to his Sunday school teacher): "Wouldn't you eventually get used to hell, like a hot tub?"

Something to think about.

No.

...Elaborate?

lol y u engulf me in eternal hell fire?

It's still not fair, worship God or suffer for all eternity. What if I don't want to worship some dude I've never met?

You're right it's not fair, if it were fair everyone would go straight to hell.

Instead, God sent his son Jesus Christ to die on a cross for humanity's sins.

Why should he have had to die on a cross for people who can never repay him?

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Why should he have had to die on a cross for people who can never repay him?

Exactly. Why the fuck would an omnipotent god have to send his "son" to die on a cross? Thank you for that excellent point, troll.

Exactly. Why the fuck would an omnipotent god have to send his "son" to die on a cross? Thank you for that excellent point, troll.

He didn't HAVE to. He could've just said, "Everyone's going to heaven if they believe in me." And he would've been justified in doing nothing. No one deserves to go to heaven. Even people who are good Christians. It's a gift you accept.

^^You're right no one deserves to go to heaven.

But no one deserves eternity in hell either. There shouldn't have to be a whole crazy system setup to compensate for God's stupidity. He knew this shit was going to happen, before he put Jesus on the cross. Why doom people to hell? His system is flawed.

There is no hell; even the Pope says so.

I believe in Jesus but not in Christ... does that mean I'm going to hell?

There is no hell; even the Pope says so.

LOL so an old geezer clarifying it settles it huh?

LOL so an old holy geezer clarifying it settles it.

fixed

He didn't HAVE to. He could've just said, "Everyone's going to heaven if they believe in me." And he would've been justified in doing nothing. No one deserves to go to heaven. Even people who are good Christians. It's a gift you accept.

I know he didn't HAVE to, that's exactly the point I'm making to Rolloffle! Thank you.

He could have just as easily (as in, wasting just as much - or even less - time, energy and resources) decided to blink his eye. The two would be exactly equivalent. He wouldn't need to have "died on the cross for people who can never repay him".

He didn't HAVE to. He could've just said, "Everyone's going to heaven if they believe in me." And he would've been justified in doing nothing. No one deserves to go to heaven. Even people who are good Christians. It's a gift you accept.

God is love. Therefore, God does not judge or punish.

Thing is, most folks get their idea of God from their earthly parents--most of whom routinely withhold love, or even savagely punish, when children fail to satisfy their whim. Therefore, they have no conception of unconditional love. The warped and twisted God of the OT loves his "children" as long as they obey his every whim--i.e., manifests CONDITIONAL love.

Jackketch correctly pointed out that we create our own hell--so, too, do we create our own heaven. It is our choice.

God is love. Therefore, God does not judge or punish.



God not judging or punishing wouldn't follow from His being a loving God.

He could have just as easily (as in, wasting just as much - or even less - time, energy and resources) decided to blink his eye. The two would be exactly equivalent. He wouldn't need to have "died on the cross for people who can never repay him".

Maybe God coming down from heaven, living life here, teaching, performing mirarcles, suffering, and coming back from the dead was better at getting the point across than blinking His eye and sending a scroll down or something.

That would make sense... except he is fucking omnipotent which means he can make "blinking his eye" just as good (or infinitely better) in getting the point across.

Christians are hell bent in limiting their god's power...

It's still not fair, worship God or suffer for all eternity. What if I don't want to worship some dude I've never met?

Since when the fuck is asking forgiveness or mercy equitable to worship? You worship fucking STUPIDITY if you don't see how damned fucking moronic that is.

You step on a guy's foot and ask him to forgive you, does that equate to worship?

Holy fuck! It's not 'bow down and serve without freedom!' It's 'ask forgiveness and mercy and you shall receive them'. I don't recall a SINGLE passage from the entire Bible that says you have to worship God in order to hit up the sky palace.

Do you have to go to church to be saved? Praise God's name all hours of day and night? Sing and dance in a choir? What the hell gives you the idea that you have to sign away your freedom, your mind, and your soul to this Jehovah? What gives you the idea that asking for something you REALLY fucking want is 'worship'?

I think I might know the source of your idiocy...tell me if this is wrong: Lots of folks come to their god in times of hardship, they hit a higher note in life, and believing their life is turned for the better by their God's hand, they CHOOSE to worship their God.

Christians, even of their own belief, are no better than anyone else. They too are liars, thieves, murderers, rapists, and every other type of social outcast. You think these are the kind of folk that just mindlessly worship something? These people can barely ask their families for help because of shame and guilt...you think they've already thrown their arms and heads up in exaltation when they ask a being they've never seen for some mystical help?

Oh! I get it all now...you think faith is a crutch so you're just making some bullshit sarcastic joke about a religious system you rejected and now detest because you had some insane fucking expectations about it and were sorely let down. Sorry man...God doesn't make the bullshit in life stop, but it can give you the inspiration to make it to the other side of a problem (if you actually make the attempt to derive inspiration from your heart/soul/imagination...whatever the fuck you call your mind's eye)...it's the appreciation for the inspiration that brings many to choose worship...because frankly, most of us humans would have given up and turned into crack whores, winos, and suicides without 'divine inspiration'.

If you still follow me, I'd be willing to argue about whether the God in these folks mind is illusion or not...I personally am more concerned about the utility of faith versus the utility of doubt. I've yet to come across something in the physical or imagined realms where outright doubt possessed equal utility to faith. There is NOTHING in the world that would cause a belief in a god to be a disadvantage. (Oooh! I got a nifty idea...if you'd like to try and create a scenario where faith in a god is a weakness, I'd LOVE to tackle it!)

My apologies if I offend...well, not really. If I offended you, fuck you. :P

There is no hell; even the Pope says so.

I believe in Jesus but not in Christ... does that mean I'm going to hell?

I thought I read in the Bible that only those who know Christ and then reject the knowledge of him are doomed. I find it hard to believe that anyone is overcome by a supernatural spirit of heavenly goodness, and would then willingly say and act upon, "Nah, fuck that bullshit." Point being: I don't think Hell is a very kickin' party...getting there would require absolute arrogance and absolute ignorance...supposedly traits that us human folk don't possess (thought politicians make me wonder sometimes). Apparently, we get weak in the knees when the OG comes 'round...

So then, unless you've been overcome by the spirit of Christ, felt him, and known him...then decided it was some bunk shit...nah, I don't think you're gonna burn. :P

Nice rant, but the Christian god asks for more than mercy and forgiveness. He asks that you believe Jesus Christ is your personal Lord and Savior. That, is worship.

I personally am more concerned about the utility of faith versus the utility of doubt. I've yet to come across something in the physical or imagined realms where outright doubt possessed equal utility to faith.

Where faith may motivate people and prod them along to continually become inspired to better themselves, a healthy bout of doubt deposits the need to problem-solve for themselves, a trait that if acquired, will serve them better in the long run than just clutching that proverbial wing and a prayer. Faith strips you of control and puts it in His hands. Doubt insists you take it back and promotes self-sufficiency.

Voltaire said it best:

Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.

He asks that you believe Jesus Christ is your personal Lord and Savior. That, is worship.

Not quite. Christians claim that but the bible simply says that what is required is recognition of Jesus as the Messiah (1John).

The Role of the Messiah does incorporate an element of generic salvation but more in a general sense of saving all of Israel (whoever 'Israel' is). The idea of opening your heart and accepting Jesus as your personal saviour is a more modern thing.

"Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit."

Ephesians 5:18

You could either interpret that as not being allowed to get drunk.

Or you could interpret that as being able to get drunk as long as it's not on wine.

Other passages: Proverbs 23:29-35 , 1 Corinthians 6:12 , 2 Peter 2:19 , 1 Corinthians 8:9-13 , 1 Corinthians 10:31 .

I believe that this quote here is encouraging us to do away with wine, and pick up some liquor. Its right there in clear text. Who's with me in creating a new church. We can take shots for communion.

Nice rant, but the Christian god asks for more than mercy and forgiveness. He asks that you believe Jesus Christ is your personal Lord and Savior. That, is worship.
That was my point, that he totally missed.

"Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit."

Ephesians 5:18

You could either interpret that as not being allowed to get drunk.

Or you could interpret that as being able to get drunk as long as it's not on wine.

Other passages: Proverbs 23:29-35 , 1 Corinthians 6:12 , 2 Peter 2:19 , 1 Corinthians 8:9-13 , 1 Corinthians 10:31 .
obviously, spirits are so much stronger than wine aswell.

That would make sense... except he is fucking omnipotent which means he can make "blinking his eye" just as good (or infinitely better) in getting the point across.

Christians are hell bent in limiting their god's power...

Not without taking away the choice to believe in something or not.

Not without taking away the choice to believe in something or not.

Which he can choose to do, while preserving free will, because he is omnipotent! Great.

Which he can choose to do, while preserving free will, because he is omnipotent! Great.

I don't think anyone claims that God can make 1+1=3....God can't take away free will and preserve it at the same time.

So then the Christian god's power is limited? If so, how do you know what are it's limits? How do you know what he can or cannot do?

If you don't think "anyone" says that, you haven't been talking to many Christians then. For example, DS and extreem, both believe god can do those things. Or at least they did last time I talked to them.

P.S. This is only if we accept your premise to begin with. How would blinking mean "taking away the choice to believe in something or not"? He could plant the idea in people's head without forcing them to believe in a certain manner. You could say that he couldn't make blinking infinitely better (than sending Jesus), but you can't say it couldn't be better; you don't know.

Not quite. Christians claim that but the bible simply says that what is required is recognition of Jesus as the Messiah (1John).

The Role of the Messiah does incorporate an element of generic salvation but more in a general sense of saving all of Israel (whoever 'Israel' is). The idea of opening your heart and accepting Jesus as your personal saviour is a more modern thing.

Well that's your interpretation, not that of countless other Christian who interpret passages such as this one, "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.", to mean Jesus is the path to salvation, thus he is your Savior.

However, in any case, your interpretation doesn't refute my point either. Believing Jesus is the Messiah of Israel would then be worship - much more than just asking for forgiveness.

It is bullshit. Made up. It is a terroristic threat to your very being.

Punch a preacher in the face for that next time you see one.

Since when the fuck is asking forgiveness or mercy equitable to worship? You worship fucking STUPIDITY if you don't see how damned fucking moronic that is.

You step on a guy's foot and ask him to forgive you, does that equate to worship?

Holy fuck! It's not 'bow down and serve without freedom!' It's 'ask forgiveness and mercy and you shall receive them'. I don't recall a SINGLE passage from the entire Bible that says you have to worship God in order to hit up the sky palace.

Do you have to go to church to be saved? Praise God's name all hours of day and night? Sing and dance in a choir? What the hell gives you the idea that you have to sign away your freedom, your mind, and your soul to this Jehovah? What gives you the idea that asking for something you REALLY fucking want is 'worship'?

I think I might know the source of your idiocy...tell me if this is wrong: Lots of folks come to their god in times of hardship, they hit a higher note in life, and believing their life is turned for the better by their God's hand, they CHOOSE to worship their God.

Christians, even of their own belief, are no better than anyone else. They too are liars, thieves, murderers, rapists, and every other type of social outcast. You think these are the kind of folk that just mindlessly worship something? These people can barely ask their families for help because of shame and guilt...you think they've already thrown their arms and heads up in exaltation when they ask a being they've never seen for some mystical help?

Oh! I get it all now...you think faith is a crutch so you're just making some bullshit sarcastic joke about a religious system you rejected and now detest because you had some insane fucking expectations about it and were sorely let down. Sorry man...God doesn't make the bullshit in life stop, but it can give you the inspiration to make it to the other side of a problem (if you actually make the attempt to derive inspiration from your heart/soul/imagination...whatever the fuck you call your mind's eye)...it's the appreciation for the inspiration that brings many to choose worship...because frankly, most of us humans would have given up and turned into crack whores, winos, and suicides without 'divine inspiration'.

If you still follow me, I'd be willing to argue about whether the God in these folks mind is illusion or not...I personally am more concerned about the utility of faith versus the utility of doubt. I've yet to come across something in the physical or imagined realms where outright doubt possessed equal utility to faith. There is NOTHING in the world that would cause a belief in a god to be a disadvantage. (Oooh! I got a nifty idea...if you'd like to try and create a scenario where faith in a god is a weakness, I'd LOVE to tackle it!)

My apologies if I offend...well, not really. If I offended you, fuck you. :P

so then why are so many people christian and why do they beleive that? it would be a lot easier to just do whatever you want, then right before you die say 'god please forgive me'.

How can you be tortured if your dead and you're central nervous system doesnt work ? there for you cant feel antyhing....anyway your dead so your dead and no longer exist.

so then why are so many people christian and why do they beleive that? it would be a lot easier to just do whatever you want, then right before you die say 'god please forgive me'.

God, being omnipotent and all, would probably be able to see the bullshit, and promptly tell you to GTFO.

I like to think each person be judged by all their good acts weighed against all the bad ones.

you pay the different in purgatory (sp) if your a catholic (i am) which doesnt sound like fun - but it sounds fair.

How can you be tortured if your dead and you're central nervous system doesnt work ? there for you cant feel antyhing....anyway your dead so your dead and no longer exist.

From what I hear from Christians, it's a torture of the soul; it's lack of God in hell, so your soul would be tortured, and you (conveniently) can't comprehend the pain the soul feels without God. Too bad there is no soul, and even if there was a God, he would only be able to torture my body, something he has yet to do.

I like to think each person be judged by all their good acts weighed against all the bad ones.

you pay the different in purgatory (sp) if your a catholic (i am) which doesnt sound like fun - but it sounds fair.
But that's giving the atheists a free pass to sin.:mad:

so then why are so many people christian and why do they beleive that? it would be a lot easier to just do whatever you want, then right before you die say 'god please forgive me'.

Gratitude and the like are very very rarely about ease. It's quite easy, as you say, to do whatever you please and then ask for forgiveness. The idea I'm trying to stress though, is that in the presence of the biblical god, we've apparently all chosen without exception to recognize our betrayals and seek forgiveness and mercy...which apparently, we're going to receive without exception.

The only men in the bible's stories that ever said 'no' to god were speaking to messengers and prophets in the form of slaves, wanderers, drunkards, mysterious figures, and so on...not the OG itself. In fact, most accounts given are of folk saying 'no' to the human hierarchies that exist around them in order to say 'yes' to the OG. A good example would be the man asked to curse the Israelites, but rather blesses them and god several times over in disobedience.

It is indeed a compulsion of us humans to acquire unfairly...to lie, cheat, steal, and kill for our own gain. It is also a compulsion of ours to avoid recognition for our less than desirable actions. It is also a compulsion of ours to seek the easiest way out of the holes we dig for ourselves. However, it is also a compulsion of ours to show our thanks to those who show us true mercy...entire social structures have existed based upon the principles of loyalty. Loyalty is, in my opinion, one of the most amazing aspects of humanity. If we see something as worthy, we will devote ourselves to it. Jobs, partners, marriages, hobbies, beliefs, and so on.

What makes something worthy to us though? What would it take for you to devote yourself to something?

For many people, the feeling of being freed from the shackles of guilt for past actions they've long regretted is enough. For many, the relationships that help carry them through dark times are enough. For many, an experience that by all means should have ended far worse can be enough. Sure, it would be easier for these folk to just fuck around and keep screwing their shit up (or as you put it, do whatever they want to), but worship abounds in those who see enough value in their god to show their gratitude in whichever way they choose. "This is worth devoting myself to." Worship is chosen, not commanded.

Just as the pothead sees value in a bud that the straight-edger cannot, so does the believer see value in gods that the atheist cannot.

For those who don't like to read: Different strokes for different folks.

Very informative post, hex... I'd +1 if I could.

Nice rant, but the Christian god asks for more than mercy and forgiveness. He asks that you believe Jesus Christ is your personal Lord and Savior. That, is worship.

Asks?!? Not commands?!? No threat of damnation to those who don't?!? Only a promise of elongation for those who do as asked?!?

Notice that John 3 DOES NOT say that those who do not believe Jesus is the magic baby of god will burn in hell...

Move to Romans and we are able to read that the only sin that won't be forgiven is a denial of the Holy Spirit. Even taking modern Christianity's butchering of the NT into account, Jesus is not THE Holy Spirit, nor IHVH (gotta love 'magic name' gods...makes me feel like I'm talking about Baldur's Gate, haha).

The only commandment to worship god is given to the Israelites. To the gentiles, the commandment is to love everything. Damn Rust, you're almost as bad as those dicks who show up for a big sci-fi movie then bitch the whole time about plot holes and inconsistencies with the original concept.

God->Universe->Life->The End
What does the movie Trading Spaces teach us? All accounts must be settled at the end of trading. The end is owed to life, life is owed to the universe, and the universe is owed to God.

^Major oversimplification...but you don't take anything I say serious anyways (I don't either, so I don't mind), so I figured I'd throw some light shit in there at the end for the fuck of it. And so you don't have to take the time to call me on non sequiturs and ad homs, I'll just say this: My post is full of both, and fuck anyone who thinks I should avoid them. Insults and capriciousness are both quite fun when weighted by nothing but good humour.

Hex: 1
Rust: 0

I'll leave the punchline for later...none of you will get it anyways.

Notice that John 3 DOES NOT say that those who do not believe Jesus is the magic baby of god will burn in hell...

No, it just says they will be "condemned"... :rolleyes:

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

- John 3:18.


Now we all know you're going to attempt some amazing verbal gymanstics to escape this glaring fact that utterly refutes your nonsense, so please spare us the bullshit and just jump to the part where you don't post anymore.

So...

Does god request more than just forgivness? Yes he does. He asks we worship him.

Is the analogy of you stepping on someones shoe valid? No. You're not stepping on anyones shoe; you were simply born, through no fault of your own, and immedietly god demands thay you worship him or be condemned. The two are not comparable in the least.

Very informative post, hex... I'd +1 if I could.

Why not return to the old days where we would express our appreciation with a thumbs up?

No, it just says they will be "condemned"... :rolleyes:

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

- John 3:18.


Now we all know you're going to attempt some amazing verbal gymanstics to escape this glaring fact that utterly refutes your nonsense, so please spare us the bullshit and just jump to the part where you don't post anymore.

So...

Does god request more than just forgivness? Yes he does. He asks we worship him.

Is the analogy of you stepping on someones shoe valid? No. You're not stepping on anyones shoe; you were simply born, through no fault of your own, and immedietly god demands thay you worship him or be condemned. The two are not comparable in the least.

Verbal gymnastics? Nah... You're just taking single verses out of context (which in a work of literature is about as sound as having not read the piece at all).

Alas though Rust, those who do not believe are not the only condemned. All are guilty and condemned before God (Hurrah for taking verses in context!). It is those who fail to recognize the Son that remain condemned at the time of judgment (by the way, the Son sits at the side of the Father...I think that very few folk would fail to recognize the Son when they stand before the Father to receive their final judgment. Of course though, we're arguing about a book of morality tales and social instructions, so none of this really matters. It's about as fruitful as arguing about LotR.)

The shoe step analogy...Good job on missing the idea being conveyed (I could have tried harder, but forgive me for not giving a shit if you understand me). Analogies are analogous, not synonymous. Stepping on a shoe doesn't have to be synonymous with the actions deemed divinely wrong so long as it leads to the aspect of forgiveness, which is the common trait of the analogy I used. It is most definitely valid, whether or not you grasp it/accept it.

And Rust, I'll never stop posting completely. It's far too much fun to fuck with you. :P

Verbal gymnastics? Nah... You're just taking single verses out of context (which in a work of literature is about as sound as having not read the piece at all).

Alas though Rust, those who do not believe are not the only condemned. All are guilty and condemned before God (Hurrah for taking verses in context!). It is those who fail to recognize the Son that remain condemned at the time of judgment (by the way, the Son sits at the side of the Father...I think that very few folk would fail to recognize the Son when they stand before the Father to receive their final judgment. Of course though, we're arguing about a book of morality tales and social instructions, so none of this really matters. It's about as fruitful as arguing about LotR.)

So then those who do not believe are condemned, just like I said (perhaps you'd like to read what I said again, so you can grasp the fact that I never once said what happened to those who believed - if they were initially condemned or not as well)? Great, thank you. I knew you'd see it my way!


The shoe step analogy...Good job on missing the idea being conveyed (I could have tried harder, but forgive me for not giving a shit if you understand me). Analogies are analogous, not synonymous. Stepping on a shoe doesn't have to be synonymous with the actions deemed divinely wrong so long as it leads to the aspect of forgiveness, which is the common trait of the analogy I used. It is most definitely valid, whether or not you grasp it/accept it.So you were using an analogy to explain what exactly? That he demands forgiveness? Who the fuck said otherwise? Everyone here was pretty set on that part of the equation. It's the fact that he demands forgiveness and worship (which you erroneously said he didn't) or we are (or remain) condemned which is the problem - a problem your pathetic shoe analogy doesn't even come close to representing.


And Rust, I'll never stop posting completely. It's far too much fun to fuck with you. :PI regret to inform you then, that you've yet to "fuck with me". Ever. Don't flatter yourself, you're not smart enough.