Atheists commonly use the "question of evil" to suggest that God is not real.

They believe a loving & omniscient God wouldn't allow evil to exist; however, the Bible clearly refutes this and teaches that evil is due to sin and free-will.

How can atheists explain good though? Where do moral absolutes come from?

What makes murder wrong?

Before you say that morality evolved because it is better for the whole species, you should realize that that sort of logic suggests intelligent design.

Natural selection can only make selections based on what is best for an individual.

Example: If I murder, steal your food, and eat it, it may be bad for you & for society, but as long as I am not punished (obviously, there were no courts when we "evolved") it is good for me because I have more food and then can produce more offspring. Therefore, we should have evolved to be murdering eachother, morality is counter-evolutionary.

They believe a loving & omniscient God wouldn't allow evil to exist; however, the Bible clearly refutes this and teaches that evil is due to sin and free-will.

God is a omnipotent all powerful being, he can prevent sin and evil in such a way as not to violate free will.

The idea of a Christian god is simply illogical.

Before you say that morality evolved because it is better for the whole species, you should realize that that sort of logic suggests intelligent design.

Natural selection can only make selections based on what is best for an individual.

Example: If I murder, steal your food, and eat it, it may be bad for you & for society, but as long as I am not punished (obviously, there were no courts when we "evolved") it is good for me because I have more food and then can produce more offspring. Therefore, we should have evolved to be murdering eachother, morality is counter-evolutionary.

Who said we didn't? Sure, we don't do it nowadays but thats mostly because it would lead to anarchy.

Hell, the bible even supports this, if "murder is bad" is an inborn trait then why would you need to tell people it's wrong?

As for your last example, you will be punished, you will be thrown out of the tribe/group and probably die. It's really fucking hard to live alone in the wild even for modern humans, how do you think a caveman would fare? You need other people, thus you are nice to them, viola!, morality evolves.

Who said we didn't? Sure, we don't do it nowadays but thats mostly because it would lead to chaos.There. Fixed that for you. Anarchy != chaos.

its true that if someone killed and whatnot they could get ahead but as the guy above me said, they would probably be kicked out of the tribe or even killed, and of course it doesnt mean that everyone did killed everone else, and thats a mental thing, not genetic so it cant be counted in natural selection.

its true that if someone killed and whatnot they could get ahead but as the guy above me said, they would probably be kicked out of the tribe or even killed, and of course it doesnt mean that everyone did killed everone else, and thats a mental thing, not genetic so it cant be counted in natural selection.

I agree, morality can't be explained through natural selection, but in that case why does morality exist?

Could it be that God has created us with certain moral values? :p

Could it be that God has created us with certain moral values? :p

If we were created with morals then why would we need to be told murder is wrong?

If we were created with morals then why would we need to be told murder is wrong?

That's my point, most people don't need to be told that murder is wrong.

That's my point, most people don't need to be told that murder is wrong.

The Bible. Specifically, the ten commandments.

The Bible. Specifically, the ten commandments.

...and yet people who've never heard of the bible aren't all homicidal maniacs. :p

People have a conscience and a certain level of basic morality (although they can of course suppress this and do evil if they really want to) which evolution cannot explain.

...and yet people who've never heard of the bible aren't all homicidal maniacs. :p

People have a conscience and a certain level of basic morality (although they can of course suppress this and do evil if they really want to) which evolution cannot explain.Morality is only one way to explain such things. For the record, I dont believe in absolute morality.

Perhaps its a person's unconscious self connecting killing a like with the possibility of themselves being killed?

Perhaps (pre-current-society) some person came to the conclusion that they would be able to accomplish a lot more if they werent fearing for their lives, and so would other people. They then explained this to their friends, and collectively explained it to their enemies, and came to a truce?

Perhaps (pre-current-society) some person acquired power over others through fear and eventually stopped unnecessary killing that way? Actually, If I remember my history right, this is what happened - it led to kings and/or lords.

The ten commandments say thou shall not kill. Killing is not necessarily murder. Murder is an illegal killing lacking justification (that can be subjective but for the purposes of this, lets ignore that). Killing includes murder but also includes self-defense, killing for food, etc. Considering the eating of fish, bread, wine is present and okay in the bible, It's safe to say this rule only applies to human beings. So in a nutshell, the Christian moral on this subject is that noone should kill. Many people would argue that there are extenuating circumstances where killing is necessary.

Morality is a social construct, it's not part of biological evolution. Morality is definately learned..I don't see how any of you can think that it is instinct. This morality is not universal as different cultures may have different morals or complete lack of morality.

So basically, there are no moral absolutes. There's no absolutes, period. This also applies to this good and evil you're talking about. How can absolute good and evil exist when people have different viewpoints on what is good and what is evil? What are the definitions of good and evil in the first place? Why does it matter so much? Humans should do whatever works for a situation and doesn't jeopardize their interests and resources no matter if it's "morally right" or not.

...and yet people who've never heard of the bible aren't all homicidal maniacs. :p

People have a conscience and a certain level of basic morality (although they can of course suppress this and do evil if they really want to) which evolution cannot explain.

So what you're saying is, atheists can be decent and moral people?

The core of your argument rests on this assertion that people have morality and a conscience innately. To which I say: prove it.

Why does rolololololofle or whatever his name is always have to bring up religion. Then he says that his religion is the only right one. After that he repeats irrellevent facts, over and over. How can someone be that stupid that he doesn't realize we don't want his christian bull. He does it in all of the forums not just MGCBTSOYG.




Minions Attack!

In the Highest Reality, there is no such thing as good and evil--there is only what works and what does not.

Good and evil are merely labels we place on things to denote whether we approve, or do not approve of them, and the labels say more about us than the things we so label.

In the Highest Reality, there is no such thing as good and evil--there is only what works and what does not.

Good and evil are merely labels we place on things to denote whether we approve, or do not approve of them, and the labels say more about us than the things we so label.

Yes, and this is basically the foundation for active nihilism. Which should be used as a tool to see through the bullshit then find out what really matters to you. People tend to have a negative view of nihilism as they are usually only exposed to the passive, fatalistic nihilism employed by people who give up on the world and themselves.

In the Highest Reality, there is no such thing as good and evil--there is only what works and what does not.

Good and evil are merely labels we place on things to denote whether we approve, or do not approve of them, and the labels say more about us than the things we so label.

This is probably the wisest thing I have read here today...and yesterday...and the day before that (wisdom being about as common as common sense).

Believe it or not and despite all the 'thou shalt nots' this concept is at the very heart of biblical law, morality and christian ethics.

Atheists commonly use the "question of evil" to suggest that God is not real.

They believe a loving & omniscient God wouldn't allow evil to exist; however, the Bible clearly refutes this and teaches that evil is due to sin and free-will.

How can atheists explain good though? Where do moral absolutes come from?

What makes murder wrong?

Before you say that morality evolved because it is better for the whole species, you should realize that that sort of logic suggests intelligent design.

Natural selection can only make selections based on what is best for an individual.

Example: If I murder, steal your food, and eat it, it may be bad for you & for society, but as long as I am not punished (obviously, there were no courts when we "evolved") it is good for me because I have more food and then can produce more offspring. Therefore, we should have evolved to be murdering eachother, morality is counter-evolutionary.

First of all I have never made the claim that god does not exist b/c of evil in the world. EVER.

Secondly morality evolving has nothing to do with intelligent design. It has to do with survival. It is imoral to murder without cause. It is immoral to lie. Here is why we LEARNED these things.

Picture if you will 3 tribes of proto-humans. The first tribe likes to murder and eat each other. The second tribe lies to one another all the time. The third tribe lives in relative peace.

Which one is likely to survive. Which one has an easier time passing on knowledge to offspring? Which one will likely dominate the other?

There is less proof for intelligent design that their is for god. At least god has a really old book and shit. Intelligent design is BRAND FUCKING NEW. Did religion alone come up with it? NO it did not. It is a half assed response to the truth that is evolution.

Intelligent design suggests the masters of the church KNOW what is coming. They KNOW that their bullshit is being defeated. They KNOW that they must do SOMETHING to try and survive amongst the truth.

Pathetic.

Before you say that morality evolved because it is better for the whole species, you should realize that that sort of logic suggests intelligent design.

Natural selection can only make selections based on what is best for an individual.

Example: If I murder, steal your food, and eat it, it may be bad for you & for society, but as long as I am not punished (obviously, there were no courts when we "evolved") it is good for me because I have more food and then can produce more offspring. Therefore, we should have evolved to be murdering eachother, morality is counter-evolutionary.

Bullshit.

Natural Selection says that the species who best can survive will be "selected."

The species that all had murderers in their group that killed each other, they were easily weeded out. The groups that had evolved to work together within the society were selected for and survived best.

Even today we can still see the failed products of evolution, such as the mentally retarded and sociopaths such as charles manson. They had random genetic mutations that caused them to be worse than the average human. In a society a few million years back, these mutations would cause them to be weeded out - thereby removing the negative mutation from being the norm in the gene pool.

In the Highest Reality, there is no such thing as good and evil--there is only what works and what does not.

Good and evil are merely labels we place on things to denote whether we approve, or do not approve of them, and the labels say more about us than the things we so label.

Fuck-ing thank you.

you should realize that that sort of logic suggests intelligent design.

Wonder which is more likely to breed, a hermit rapist or a compassionate pack animal

Idiot. Oh and God "intelligently designed" birth defects. Nice fellow

Wonder which is more likely to breed, a hermit rapist or a compassionate pack animal

Idiot. Oh and God "intelligently designed" birth defects. Nice fellow

According to the Bible, when man was first created he was perfect and would never die; however, man's sin separated him from God and introduced death into the world.

Obviously, a hermit rapist will have more descendants (there was no abortion then of course) because he doesn't care about monogamy or consent.

In the Highest Reality, there is no such thing as good and evil--there is only what works and what does not.

Good and evil are merely labels we place on things to denote whether we approve, or do not approve of them, and the labels say more about us than the things we so label.My thoughts exactly. Give this man a medal or something.

1) Before you say that morality evolved because it is better for the whole species, you should realize that that sort of logic suggests intelligent design.

2) Natural selection can only make selections based on what is best for an individual.

3) obviously, there were no courts when we "evolved"

1) Morality came from how we feel about things, what our emotions tell us. Also my religion and people were (are) much better with morals than Christian scum.

2) Natural selection has nothing to do with individuals, but as a species and a race as a whole.
e.g. a disease comes along and infects humans, most die, but a few, the strongest with the best resistance to it, survive. Or, your tribe is out hunting, you come across a lion. The lion kills and eats the slowest. The strongest survive. Or, extreme weather comes along, either very cold or very hot, only the people that can resist it survive.

3) Yes there were no courts when we "evolved", but I'm sure as hell if you were in a village, and you killed someone for no reason, I'm sure as hell they would all hunt you out and kill you. Which is a more effective jury and court in my opinion

There is no absolute good or absolute evil.

If you disagree with this... you are either religious, or a fool.

In the Highest Reality, there is no such thing as good and evil--there is only what works and what does not.

Good and evil are merely labels we place on things to denote whether we approve, or do not approve of them, and the labels say more about us than the things we so label.

Oh, Both good And 'evil' work, i believe the question is what is it that makes them work.

I suppose we have the same problem with science and it's explanation of why gravity exists - we can only see the symptoms of it's existence, not the actual thing in itself.

an idea i entertained when i was younger (going back to 99' - 00') was that regardless of whether a person does good or not, why should that person be valued more than any other?

If one were to favour only those who were 'good' then why would those who are 'evil' ever bother to look at the world through different eyes?

In this aspect, That which is seen as 'Good' seemed very 'Evil' to me.

But then again, i was 13.

EDIT: Eventually i realised that i should probably stop listening to people who learnt what they know from those who have their own agenda, like social popularity or personal gratification.

Then i went into college.

So basically, OP, you want Athiests to argue about moral relitivism and universalism?

That's an entirely different headache altogether.

According to the Bible, when man was first created he was perfect and would never die; however, man's sin separated him from God and introduced death into the world.

What's that got to do with anything?

Obviously, a hermit rapist will have more descendants (there was no abortion then of course) because he doesn't care about monogamy or consent.

Even if he has no mates available and is killed on sight because he's a threat

People didn't do anything alone back then. Raping isn't exactly easy as is, let alone if the victims aren't idiots jogging alone in a park after 9pm

Atheists commonly use the "question of evil" to suggest that God is not real.

They believe a loving & omniscient God wouldn't allow evil to exist; however, the Bible clearly refutes this and teaches that evil is due to sin and free-will.

How can atheists explain good though? Where do moral absolutes come from?

What makes murder wrong?

Before you say that morality evolved because it is better for the whole species, you should realize that that sort of logic suggests intelligent design.

Natural selection can only make selections based on what is best for an individual.

Example: If I murder, steal your food, and eat it, it may be bad for you & for society, but as long as I am not punished (obviously, there were no courts when we "evolved") it is good for me because I have more food and then can produce more offspring. Therefore, we should have evolved to be murdering eachother, morality is counter-evolutionary.

Why do you think that we have not evolved into murderers that prey on each other?

There are plenty of murders everyday in the world and they are sometime committed by Christians,

And I do not think you know what natural selection means.

Has anyone mentioned how morality has lead to aspirants whom work tirelessly for the benefit of others?

I believe that if it weren't for people like this, the intrawebz would either not exist, to say the least of healthcare, welfare, democracy (the good version), etc.

If you really believe morality is counter-productive, then why is it that those whom are truly counter-productive to society (note i have no clear example here, as such people like to keep to themselves) AND ACCEPT IT tend to be static on the issue of morality?

Natural selection can only make selections based on what is best for an individual.

Example: If I murder, steal your food, and eat it, it may be bad for you & for society, but as long as I am not punished (obviously, there were no courts when we "evolved") it is good for me because I have more food and then can produce more offspring. Therefore, we should have evolved to be murdering eachother, morality is counter-evolutionary.
Not exactly. It's the same reason wolves travel in packs, or ants are in colonies; what's good for the pack, colony, town will also be good for the individuals within it.

As for where morality comes from, I believe it is an inherent part of being human in this particular universe; a law like gravity, or natural selection. Because of how we are formed and how life works, certain things are evil and certain are good. Suffering, for instance - pain - is intensely real to us due to our brains, nervous systems, etc. Therefore, it is an evil... to us. Aliens would undoubtedly have different goods and evils, being completely different in form, function, etc.

Yes, and this is basically the foundation for active nihilism. Which should be used as a tool to see through the bullshit then find out what really matters to you. People tend to have a negative view of nihilism as they are usually only exposed to the passive, fatalistic nihilism employed by people who give up on the world and themselves.

I don't thin so. Nihism includes the idea that life is essentially meaningless, a notion I reject vigourously. My life is filled with meaning and purpose. While I reject most of the myth and metaphor in the Bible, I do know beyond the hint of doubt that the kingdom of God is within me--that is, I share in and in fact am one and the same as the infinite sentient and loving intelligence that permeates all of reality, commonly referred to as God.

My purpose in life is to express and declare who and what I am, in accordance with my highest, grandest, greatest and most noble conception of myself, as I choose to define myself--which is as a being who has transcended fear, manifests universal unconditional love, and experiences unity consciousness--knowing that we are All One, and that whatever I do to anyone else, I do to myself.

Obviously, I often fall short of this goal. Often, I choose to experience anger rather than love, alienation rather than communion, judgement rather than acceptance. Often, I face the need to forgive myself, as I forgive others.

I do this, not in hopes of nonexistant heavenly rewards or in fear of nonexistant hellish punishment, but because I choose to manifest my essential self and transcend my ego.

Or, to put it more plainly, I got really tired of being an asshole all the time.

I don't thin so. Nihism includes the idea that life is essentially meaningless, a notion I reject vigourously. My life is filled with meaning and purpose. While I reject most of the myth and metaphor in the Bible, I do know beyond the hint of doubt that the kingdom of God is within me--that is, I share in and in fact am one and the same as the infinite sentient and loving intelligence that permeates all of reality, commonly referred to as God.

My purpose in life is to express and declare who and what I am, in accordance with my highest, grandest, greatest and most noble conception of myself, as I choose to define myself--which is as a being who has transcended fear, manifests universal unconditional love, and experiences unity consciousness--knowing that we are All One, and that whatever I do to anyone else, I do to myself.

Obviously, I often fall short of this goal. Often, I choose to experience anger rather than love, alienation rather than communion, judgement rather than acceptance. Often, I face the need to forgive myself, as I forgive others.

I do this, not in hopes of nonexistant heavenly rewards or in fear of nonexistant hellish punishment, but because I choose to manifest my essential self and transcend my ego.

Or, to put it more plainly, I got really tired of being an asshole all the time.

It's more about realizing that there is no inherent objective meaning to life. Once you realize that and push away beliefs that require faith you can focus on reality and come up with meanings and purposes that work for you. You have to see nihilism as more of a tool than a philosophy in and of itself. It's sort of a reality check. If you're familiar with Absurdism, it's a lot like that. It's a realization that it is humanly impossible to find meaning in the universe.

Basically I see nihilism as a vital step on the way to an existentialist lifestyle. Once you push aside all the false meanings and morals to life, you can create meaning yourself. All this while accepting all responsibility for yourself and your actions. Some people see nihilism and existentialism as opposites but I think they definately go hand in hand, without nihilism existentialism just wouldn't work.

To sum it all up, existence precedes essence. You could probably argue back and forth about that forever, but that just gives me more reason to doubt inherent meaning or to at least accept that I, as a human, am not in a position to truely know.

By the way, your description of what you believe and how you live your life is a very good example of what I am suggesting.

It is far more difficult to truly accept the fact that death is a complete cessation of life and your ONLY job in this world to procreate and transfer your genetic code to the next generation.
That we are merely a complex combination of proton, nuetrons and electrons that wishes to exist through this transference of genetic code is not appealing. That ALL of our thoughts and emotions are designed by evolution in the successful effort to ensure our ultimate survival.
Anything other than what I listed above is entirely a matter of opinion.

It is far more difficult to truly accept the fact that death is a complete cessation of life and your ONLY job in this world to procreate and transfer your genetic code to the next generation.
That we are merely a complex combination of proton, nuetrons and electrons that wishes to exist through this transference of genetic code is not appealing. That ALL of our thoughts and emotions are designed by evolution in the successful effort to ensure our ultimate survival.
Anything other than what I listed above is entirely a matter of opinion.

That goes against how humans are doing right now though - were exhausting this planet of resources.

Also; don't you think that it's a bit of a cop-out?

Simply saying "Oh, i know what happens - Your brain stops working!" is almost as bad as saying "I don't know", but at least your prepared to disguise that fact.

That goes against how humans are doing right now though - were exhausting this planet of resources.

Responsibility on a global scale is impossible to be created by natural selection unless we somehow develop a hive mind

Also; don't you think that it's a bit of a cop-out?

Cop-out of what? Responsibility? If you need to be God's special child who gets punished if you don't behave to do so, that tells a whole lot of your character

Some of us don't need to be forced by a threat of violence to behave and be nice. I know it sounds like a ridiculous concept to religious fanatics in search of validation but you could humor the thought

Edit: oh right, cop-out to admit you don't know if there's anything beyond and hence, don't make strange assumptions. Some of us would call it common sense, too bad it's anything but common

Simply saying "Oh, i know what happens - Your brain stops working!" is almost as bad as saying "I don't know", but at least your prepared to disguise that fact.

You're the one making a preposterous claim about souls and whatnot with zero evidence. Claiming your brain shuts down with you with it is a logical conclusion based on everything we know about the brain. Claiming you know what comes after is inane

Responsibility on a global scale is impossible to be created by natural selection unless we somehow develop a hive mind

Yes, thank you for proving my point.

Cop-out of what? Responsibility? If you need to be God's special child who gets punished if you don't behave to do so, that tells a whole lot of your character

Nope, i was just saying that the answer 'You die and turn into maggot-food' is an easy answer, perhaps the world is indeed as simplistic as that, but idk - do you?

Oh, stop trying to judge my character - i'm not hiding anything.

Some of us don't need to be forced by a threat of violence to behave and be nice. I know it sounds like a ridiculous concept to religious fanatics in search of validation but you could humor the thought

Edit: oh right, cop-out to admit you don't know if there's anything beyond and hence, don't make strange assumptions. Some of us would call it common sense, too bad it's anything but common

Ah, i see you do indeed have the remarkable perception i've come to expect from totseans, please exercise it more often.

You're the one making a preposterous claim about souls and whatnot with zero evidence. Claiming your brain shuts down with you with it is a logical conclusion based on everything we know about the brain. Claiming you know what comes after is inane

Where did i claim that i 'know' what happens?

The matter is that you will be punished, by the feeling you have harmed people in some way. And you can't just ignore that. It's like when you would steal your life long from the poor to survive on your own, when you die you'll feel the consequences of what you've done and you won't be able to die peacefully.

Yes, thank you for proving my point.

We haven't lived in packs consisting of millions for all that long, it's no surprise we are bad at it. Hardly proves anything

Nope, i was just saying that the answer 'You die and turn into maggot-food' is an easy answer, perhaps the world is indeed as simplistic as that, but idk - do you?

I don't see why the answer should be grand and complicated