I wrote this as a reply to a thread by rollofle that was just closed. Although yes, it was closed... I think my response makes a worthy thread of it's own.

Edit: Thanks Jack. There is hope for political efficacy at totse.com! :P

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I am godless.

And as much as I consider myself a very tolerant and reasonable human being... I find myself pushing atheist values on others (at least judging others) quite often, and as much as it might be politically incorrect to say this, I find it perfectly justified. I know to religious people, and even unrelgious people this often comes across as ugly and arrogant... but out of nothing but true self honestly, I do think that this atheist pushiness is in fact justified. Bare with me, I'm going to attempt to explain.

You said it yourself. I believe that when I die, I'm going to turn into the same exact dust that you, Christians, Muslims, and Hindus all turn into. The difference is that a religious person, has something BEYOND life. To the religious person, this world is just a precursor to an even better "life eternal." However what you need to understand, is that to atheists, this is the ONE shot we've got. THIS is my world, my one chance at getting things right and making the most out of my short time in this universe. With that said, I want to live my life the way I desire. I want to be the best person I can be in my time here, and I don't want to be held back and anchored by somebody else's ( or a two thousand year old book's) moral code.

Before I start, I need to clear this up. When I attack religion, I am not pushing "atheism". Atheism is not something one can "call to arms" for... it's not something that one waves a flag for at all. When I say I'm an atheist, all I'm doing is saying that I lack a belief in a higher being. Atheism is not a belief structure, it is a LACK of just that. IT is not something that unites me with fellow atheists... and its ridiculous to push and fight for atheism itself. However what I do push, and what is worth fighting for, and what does unite me with other atheists, is my desire for a secular environment I can live my life in freely, and humanist values that I would gladly fight and die for. I'm not pushing atheism... I'm pushing humanism. I'm pushing personal freedom. Tying back into the above paragraph... knowing this is my ONE shot in this world, I believe that it's perfectly acceptable to assume and fight for my right to live in a free and secular environment, where somebody else's beliefs aren't pushed onto me.

The sad truth, is that for thousands of years now, somebody else's beliefs HAVE been pushed onto the human race, human societies, humanity's moral systems, laws, government, etc. This I am not okay with. In America the biggest threat to my freedom, the freedom of my human spirit, is Christianity. I am avidly against the Christian moral code, a bloodthirsty blend of stoicism and weakness that dictates the way I must live my life. Fuck the meek. Fuck the fact that a church, no different than any other establishment, somehow has the ability to be tax exempt. Fuck the fact that a drug user can avoid jail time by serving his sentence in a Christian Rehab clinic... and not have the choice to serve in a secular rehab center. Fuck the way Christianity weaves itself into our laws... from the banning of homosexual civil unions to abortions (even though I am personally against the latter.) Fuck the fact that kids everywhere are scumming up their sex lives, not understanding the importance of using a condom because our educators (and whoever else) only preach abstinence, and no safe alternative. Fuck the joke of intelligent design, and the anchor religion has become on the world's education and learning. Fuck the fact that in ten years, we could grow organs on a farm... yet millions will die because of some "other worldly" condemnation of stem cell research. This is probly the biggest one for me personally... the best argument for "pushy atheism." 30 years from now if I need a new kidney, do you know how crushed I would feel if one were not available? The way these heavy morals effect all of our lives are not just interfering with the pursuit of happiness, they could easily mean the death of millions! (Not to mention religion's track record of billions of deaths by war and holocaust in the name of God).

Not only do we suffer and feel weighed down by religion's effects on law and state, but society as well has been so trained into religion that all government aside, we still cannot escape. I've lost friends because of my atheism. People are kicked out of neighborhoods because of atheism. I'm not some human degenerate, I'm simply a human being that values LIFE. Hell, there are even atheists that are by many means, Christian.

It's not that I'm pushing atheism at all, rather I am fighting for humanist values. I'm fighting for a true separation of church and state, a true separation from church and MY life. Unfortunately for the atheist in the modern world, this is virtually impossible. Religion is a large part of all our lives, whether we realize it or not, and like it or not. I don't like it... and frankly it sickens me. I feel helpless and chained down by it... and it's not that I'm pushing atheism per se, but rather pushing for my freedom... or rather my children's (no hope in my lifetime) freedom from religion, thousand year old morals, judgment, etc in their lives. I think religion is a very ugly thing... at least the religion I have been exposed to. I know the church has done good things, beautiful things, etc... but even these intentions can be argued, and I'll save that for another post. (Even these good things to me are plagued down by the denial of life and humanity.)

You say you understand the pushing of Christianity because it "saves"... but for somebody that doesn't believe that it DOES save, why the hell would I want to hear it? And I can't remember the last time a Christian tried to "save" me from my atheism... although I do have a very vivid memory of being told that I will in fact burn in hell for eternity.
Is that how they're supposed to save me? Telling me I'm going to roast? Heh.

I'm sorry if you take this as a rant instead of an explanation. If you have any more questions, I'll try to explain better. Just ask... I won't be offended.

I don't care what people believe in.
I'll admit, that I can't help but pass judgment when somebody does tell me they believe in 2000 year old completely ungrounded stories with no evidence what so ever. However the faith itself is not the crime. The crime is when that faith corrupts people around it, be it children or those under the crossfire. The crime is religion, not faith.

I just want to live my one life on this world, a world many religions don't seem to value a whole lot, freely and without somebody else's ancient set of rules and prejudices. If this means pointing out inconsistencies, flaws, hypocrisy, etc...

Then I will fight and push for what I value.

Athiests are pushy in response to religious prosletyzing.

You tell me I'm going to hell and I'll tell you why you're wrong.

Is that how they're supposed to save me? Telling me I'm going to roast? Heh.

I'm sorry if you take this as a rant instead of an explanation. If you have any more questions, I'll try to explain better. Just ask... I won't be offended. I don't care what people believe in.


okay.

I don't care what you believe in either.

Then I will fight and push for what I value.To quote a most awesome video game:

"I will walk my own path... If you try to stop me... I'll kill you!"

bump + 5 char

Athiests are pushy in response to religious prosletyzing.

You tell me I'm going to hell and I'll tell you why you're wrong.

This pretty much sums it up.

and I don't want to be held back and anchored by somebody else's ( or a two thousand year old book's) moral code.
.

Can you give me an example of how you feel a part of the biblical moral code would hold you back?

okay.

I don't care what you believe in either.

Okay, but see this is the central difference between religious pushiness and atheistic pushiness. I don't care what you believe in, and it doesn't harm you, hurt you, hold you back, or effect you in any way what so ever. You (only assuming you are religious) don't care what I believe in, but I suffer from it every day.

If atheists made the rules... if humans separated from any higher belief structure made the laws and moral system of our world and focused it on solely humanity... then you would be free to believe whatever you want so long as you don't hurt anybody else. You could choose not to participate in stem cell research by not receiving an organ that comes from a stem cell. Your religious domination could choose not to marry homosexuals under the name of a (your religion's) marriage ceremony. You could not get an abortion, but leave it open for people that might really really need it.

You not caring, and me not caring, have very different consequences.

Okay, but see this is the central difference between religious pushiness and atheistic pushiness. I don't care what you believe in, and it doesn't harm you, hurt you, hold you back, or effect you in any way what so ever. You (only assuming you are religious) don't care what I believe in, but I suffer from it every day.

If atheists made the rules... if humans separated from any higher belief structure made the laws and moral system of our world and focused it on solely humanity... then you would be free to believe whatever you want so long as you don't hurt anybody else. You could choose not to participate in stem cell research by not receiving an organ that comes from a stem cell. Your religious domination could choose not to marry homosexuals under the name of a (your religion's) marriage ceremony. You could not get an abortion, but leave it open for people that might really really need it.

You not caring, and me not caring, have very different consequences.


That would not work. It would end Christianity and they know it. Many christians would be like FUCK GOD give me a liver. They would also wanna watch secular television like porn. If christain doctrine said christians should NOT stick their noses in where it is unwanted THE RELIGION ITSELF WOULD DISAPEAR AND THEY KNOW IT.

That would not work. It would end Christianity and they know it. Many christians would be like FUCK GOD give me a liver. They would also wanna watch secular television like porn. If christain doctrine said christians should NOT stick their noses in where it is unwanted THE RELIGION ITSELF WOULD DISAPEAR AND THEY KNOW IT.

That wouldn't be a bad thing IMO, lol.

Can you give me an example of how you feel a part of the biblical moral code would hold you back?

I can try.

One of my biggest beefs with Christian morality, comes with the "blessed are the meek" idea. To me this promotes laziness and weakness... that although might not hold me back personally, have held humanity/society back from reaching it's capable potential.

Another chunk has to do with the life denial I see in the Christian faith. Being based on a sublime heaven, a life external, I feel it truly takes the value out of life on this world. For somebody without a god, like myself, this world is all that I've got!

Then there's the idea of original sin. I do not believe we are sinful creatures, that need the salvation of some god in order to live our lives. I do not believe it is healthy, by practical and psychological standards, to believe we are sinful creatures... evil creatures... whatever you want to call it.

A girl in my creative writing course read a story about two lovers... and although I don't remember the way the story goes (she cheated on him or something, always treated him like shit), at the end of it as she explained it's inspiration she talked about how the man's love for the woman resembled God's love for man... who although is horrible and etc etc, still loves us and saves us.

Her exact words were "to god, humanity is just dirt. We are dirt to him, and are nothing without him." I softly replied: "I am not dirt."

I don't think it's healthy to have this kind of negative self image. Hell, I don't think it's healthy to be constantly forgiving and loving to somebody who constantly hurts you and treats you like shit. That seems very dangerous to me.

Then there are other issues, noted above such as abortion, gay civil union, stem cell research, etc etc... but none of these are truly Christian morality, so much as morals decided upon by the modern Christian establishment... so I'll leave those aside.

Is this enough of an example? I can try to further explain, but as of now I have to go run some errands.

That would not work. It would end Christianity and they know it. Many christians would be like FUCK GOD give me a liver. They would also wanna watch secular television like porn. If christain doctrine said christians should NOT stick their noses in where it is unwanted THE RELIGION ITSELF WOULD DISAPEAR AND THEY KNOW IT.

I disagree. I think that there are actually good Christians out there... and I believe that there are actually true Christians out there. (Although don't confuse this as saying the two are necessarily in the same group). I do think these circumstances would be a huge blow on the numbers and dollar amounts of Christianity... but I don't think the entire faith would crumble to pieces. There would still be Christians, there would still be religion.

Think of the amish. They don't watch porn... they don't even use electricity.

What this would do however, and what you sort of get at, but get lost in teenage angst with... is that it would cut the hypocrisy out of religion entirely... or at least expose it. There would still be Christians... and in my opinion, these would be a much more respectable people than the common Christian today.

I disagree. I think that there are actually good Christians out there... and I believe that there are actually true Christians out there. (Although don't confuse this as saying the two are necessarily in the same group). I do think these circumstances would be a huge blow on the numbers and dollar amounts of Christianity... but I don't think the entire faith would crumble to pieces. There would still be Christians, there would still be religion.

Think of the amish. They don't watch porn... they don't even use electricity.

What this would do however, and what you sort of get at, but get lost in teenage angst with... is that it would cut the hypocrisy out of religion entirely... or at least expose it. There would still be Christians... and in my opinion, these would be a much more respectable people than the common Christian today.


The numbers of the amish are in fact dwindling. I have family that lives near an amish community and they watch more porn and engage in true DEPRAVITY more than you would think. It is impossible and unhealthy to think of sex as unnatural or wrong, but I digress.

I agree that some semblance of christianity MIGHT survive but without the guilt, sexual oppresion, money, and a healthy amount of finger wagging at the sinners christianity would decline very rapidly and eventually go the way of Zues and Ra.

Christians MUST strive for political power and control if their faith is to survive. They know this and have taken steps and measures to ensure they will be a political force rather than a totally spirtual one.

I can try.

One of my biggest beefs with Christian morality, comes with the "blessed are the meek" idea. To me this promotes laziness and weakness... that although might not hold me back personally, have held humanity/society back from reaching it's capable potential.

Another chunk has to do with the life denial I see in the Christian faith. Being based on a sublime heaven, a life external, I feel it truly takes the value out of life on this world. For somebody without a god, like myself, this world is all that I've got!

Then there's the idea of original sin. I do not believe we are sinful creatures, that need the salvation of some god in order to live our lives. I do not believe it is healthy, by practical and psychological standards, to believe we are sinful creatures... evil creatures... whatever you want to call it.

A girl in my creative writing course read a story about two lovers... and although I don't remember the way the story goes (she cheated on him or something, always treated him like shit), at the end of it as she explained it's inspiration she talked about how the man's love for the woman resembled God's love for man... who although is horrible and etc etc, still loves us and saves us.

Her exact words were "to god, humanity is just dirt. We are dirt to him, and are nothing without him." I softly replied: "I am not dirt."

I don't think it's healthy to have this kind of negative self image. Hell, I don't think it's healthy to be constantly forgiving and loving to somebody who constantly hurts you and treats you like shit. That seems very dangerous to me.

Then there are other issues, noted above such as abortion, gay civil union, stem cell research, etc etc... but none of these are truly Christian morality, so much as morals decided upon by the modern Christian establishment... so I'll leave those aside.

Is this enough of an example? I can try to further explain, but as of now I have to go run some errands.

I wasn't expecting that example.

However you and most Xtians giving the word 'meek' connectations that it didn't have in the original.

Years ago I watched a prog on German TV (which btw is really dire).

Bill Gates was there being interviewed.

The interviewer asked him to show everyone the contents of his wallet and to then give his wallet + cash contained therein as a prize in the draw for charity.

Bill opened his wallet and all he had were 400 DM and a credit card.

400 DM was about US$250.

So hardly a fortune, not when you also consider it had just been announced he was now richer than the Sultan Of Brunei and so the richtest man in the world.

That kinda gives a shade of the meaning of 'meek' in the way the bible uses it.

Infact moses was described as the meekest of men. Yet he was rich, powerful and not afraid to take 'direct action'.

*laptop about to die, no time for spell check*

One of my biggest beefs with Christian morality, comes with the "blessed are the meek" idea. To me this promotes laziness and weakness... that although might not hold me back personally, have held humanity/society back from reaching it's capable potential.

Thank you for being so honest about how atheists really feel about the poor & the sick. :)

I, myself, don't care what other people say, do, or think. That's none of my business. But when it comes to religion, the people who are in power, the people who can affect my life, believe in these stupid things. Their beliefs affect my life, therefore I give myself the right to intervene.

I wasn't expecting that example.

However you and most Xtians giving the word 'meek' connectations that it didn't have in the original.

Years ago I watched a prog on German TV (which btw is really dire).

Bill Gates was there being interviewed.

The interviewer asked him to show everyone the contents of his wallet and to then give his wallet + cash contained therein as a prize in the draw for charity.

Bill opened his wallet and all he had were 400 DM and a credit card.

400 DM was about US$250.

So hardly a fortune, not when you also consider it had just been announced he was now richer than the Sultan Of Brunei and so the richtest man in the world.

That kinda gives a shade of the meaning of 'meek' in the way the bible uses it.

Infact moses was described as the meekest of men. Yet he was rich, powerful and not afraid to take 'direct action'.

*laptop about to die, no time for spell check*

This could very well be... I will admit that I have never prudently studied the bible, at least in the sense of grammatical context and diction... and if there is one Christian on here that would know, I trust that would be you, (someone who's done their homework, rather than just taken in the info fed at Sunday school)... so I'll take your word for it.

However even by this definition of meekness... and I'm going to try to say this without sounding like some asshole (and maybe its the fact that Christianity is so prevailant in my life, that would even make me feel like an asshole for saying this)... but isn't it really short changing yourself, if you have some sort of abundance and don't express it? To me this is another sort of life denial. And I know your example has to do with money and wealth... and the best way I can try to explain where I'm coming from is to try to express it in other, non monetary terms. (I guess I do respect monetary meekness).

However in other areas of life... I am greatly opposed to your definition of meekness. Aspects such as greatness, courage, power, culture, intellect, indivuality, etc. If one has these in his possession, I think it is very unhuman to deny these things, and live life as if he/she doesn't have these things. Christian meekness seems to desire bringing every person, strong and weak, brave and cowardly, etc etc all on the same level of playing field. It seems to work as the great equalizer, when I feel that all humans are definitely, definitely NOT equal. Maybe at birth... (and not considering healthy/sick infants) but as life goes on, some humans are in fact greater than others, dare I say... by means of my own moral code, "better" than others. To deny this, SOUNDS nice... it sounds sweet and pleasant to say we're all the same, we all should act the same... however once again, the problem with this is rather than raising the weak (all kinds of weakness, whatever the area) the Christian tenet of blessing the meek seems to bring down the strong. I just find this very very counter productive, for the indivudal AND the human race altogether.

And regardless of the bible's TRUE meaning of the word "meek".... you said so yourself, most Christians even have completely misinturpreted it. In many aspects of Christianity, I have found there to be a strange duality between the origional teachings of Jesus Christ (and those before him), and the modern Christian faith. Its an almost paradoxal dualism.

And rollofle, don't put words in my mouth. However as much as your post stung with some sort of "pseudo-wit"... I think that your point does have some footing, for this too seems to tie into my own ideas on "meekness".

I am a very compassionate person, a very sympathetic person for those who have either no control over their weakness, in health or wealth. When a child is born with a mental retardation, I deeply feel for both the indivudal and the family. When a hard working man catches serious illness, or is in a horrible accident and cannot work for months, leaving him starving and impovershed, I believe this is unacceptable in today's world... and have deep compassion for anybody in this situation. Hell, even those individuals who become thugs from a shitty education and never having a chance in some inner city neighborhood... I have loads of lament and sympathy for. However there is another kind of poor man, another kind of sick man... that I believe deserves his poverty/illness. The guy that will not help himself, is too lazy to help himself, too meek to help himself... this man deserves the weakness he creates for himself. I do not feel for these people, and I do not believe they deserve "forgiveness". Let them create their own salvation. The alcoholic who knows he drinks too much, and keeps on drinking for decades until his liver is botched and broken... he has earned this weakness... it's just another effect of a cause. He has created his own meekness... and as "evil" as it might sound to the Christian world... I cannot pitty these people. Even pitty, they do not deserve.

^^^No one deserves pitty. Pitty is negative. Along with hate, anger, fear, jealousy and many other human emotions. We are so engrained with them that we will never become enlightened unless we can acknowledge them and let them go. Every single person is equal in my belief. Humans just feel the desire to pass judgement on what is good or bad. In reality we should look at everything no matter what, as good. Negative feelings only create more negativity. We judge and we blame but really we are all the same. Just a human being that needs to have love, give love and live.

We must be meek or humble in aspects such as greatness, courage, power, culture, intellect, indivuality, etc, or we will continue to judge what is right or wrong and blame ourselves and others for theirs or our own life. Life is all about being personally accountable. To be personally accountable we cannot judge others or ourselves for how our life is. We must accept that life just is. Neither good or bad it only is. Take a good look at your post, you judge and blame many many times. Really try to see.

Sorry to post again but I would like to talk a little bit about meekness and our ego. If we cannot be meek towards all aspects of our life, then our ego has control. I'm not saying that if you are meek you will get rid of all your ego. But if you can become meek or humble, then you will not let your ego make your choices in life. Too often we let ego make the choices in our life and when we do we don't make the correct decisions. Let go of your ego by being humble, and you can see the truth of life. We must acknowledge before we can let go, and we must let go before we can change. Ego is by far, the biggest obstacle known to mankind but we can overcome it and live truly enlightened by believing in ourselves.

I'm not an atheist, I just don't believe in god.

I'm not an atheist, I just don't believe in god.

Excellent!;)

^^^No one deserves pitty. Pitty is negative. Along with hate, anger, fear, jealousy and many other human emotions. We are so engrained with them that we will never become enlightened unless we can acknowledge them and let them go. Every single person is equal in my belief. Humans just feel the desire to pass judgement on what is good or bad. In reality we should look at everything no matter what, as good. Negative feelings only create more negativity. We judge and we blame but really we are all the same. Just a human being that needs to have love, give love and live.

We must be meek or humble in aspects such as greatness, courage, power, culture, intellect, indivuality, etc, or we will continue to judge what is right or wrong and blame ourselves and others for theirs or our own life. Life is all about being personally accountable. To be personally accountable we cannot judge others or ourselves for how our life is. We must accept that life just is. Neither good or bad it only is. Take a good look at your post, you judge and blame many many times. Really try to see.

Every person is equal in your belief... and this is no different than the Christian belief I am dissenting, that being "all souls are equal before God." You also say to accept everything thrown your way, call it all good and accept accept accept. This too, is no different than Christian stoicism that says regardless of how shitty your life may be, call it God's master plan and quit complaining. My friend, regardless of what you may call your beliefs, you are a Christian. Regardless of whether you believe in a God or worship a Jesus Christ, you are a Christian. Like I said, I know a handful of atheists who are Christians, and the words they speak could be summed up in your two above posts.

What sickness do you suffer, that makes you loathe your very own skin? This I do not understand, I cannot understand. You call hate, anger, fear and jealousy negative human emotions... yet even if this is so, can you honestly deny these emotions exist? You say to improve mankind we must let go of these emotions... yet by doing so, so you take away everything in us that makes us mankind! If I could for instant believe that there WAS a god in this universe, an almighty creator... the things you seek to destroy I would bless and thank Him for! How thankful I am... that these emotions do exist in our human spirits. How thankful I am, that if somebody wrongs me, I do have the ability to get a little pissed off, and desire a positive change. How thankful I am, that if I am in danger, everything human inside of me screams fight of flight, and gives to me fear. Essentially, the belief structure you promote is no different than wishing to shut down your sensory neurons and live life pain free. This is a nice way to live... until your feet catch on fire. You're absolutely wrong weedman. Your philosophy is so insanely and illy backwards. Negative feelings are what inspire us to change the negative, to fix the negative, and set things positive. Your stoic, "all is good" approach is what causes the negative to linger and linger and never go away. Your philosophy is nothing more than fertile soil for negativity to live in and grow, and never be abolished. All will not be "good". There will always be "bad"... regardless of how far away you manage to run from your human spirit, and learn to deny this vital and truest truth. Even IF you can honestly somehow consciously deny it... it will always be there subconsciously. Your philosophy is unhealthy. Your philosophy is marketed towards the weak, and thus makes you weak. Your philosophy is no different than Christianity. My advice to you, in regards to your little set of ideals, is to stand out in the cold rain wearing nothing at all. When you catch pneumonia, tell yourself that "all is good", and don't bother seeing a doctor, because remember, everything is indeed fine and good. Let it turn into something fatal, and still wearing your rock solid smile, leave this world and die a "happy" man. Die a useless and meaningless man. If you are so unhappy living as a human in this world, then take your smile and leave this world. If you're going to deny life... then please, deny it completely and leave it to us that are happy to be here. I'm sorry if this all sounds harsh to you... and I fear you're too lost to see at all where I'm coming from. I don't mean it literally, but honestly... do you even see what you're saying here? Sigh.

And no. Nothing could be worse for humans than to be meek or humble in aspects such as greatness, courage, power, culture, intellect, individuality, etc. Hell, if you want to be meek in these aspects, than go right ahead... but I sure hope that the great, the courageous, the powerful, the intellectual, the top most and what I would consider "best" human individuals do not follow your footsteps and drown in your curse. Let the great be great. Let the brave be brave. Let the smart be smart. These are the TRUE improvers of mankind... not those that deny everything human inside of them, as you suggest. The greatest humans should not be held back by humanity, and these ridiculous and sick, anti human moral systems we've set up. Why pull them into the mire, when we could let them soar? I don't want to live my life alongside everyone else. I want to soar. The best thing I could do for humanity, would be to reach a point where I "look down" on humanity. These are the figures mankind truly needs, if we ever wish to overcome ourselves or improve ourselves.

Also, I find it highly ironic you say that we should be personally accountable... yet the way to do this is to let go of right and wrong and not judge ourselves. Although I do not believe in any absolute right or wrong... how can you be personally accountable for anything if you do not view your very own actions as right or wrong, good or bad, etc. Your philosophy preaches the exact OPPOSITE of personal accountability... it preaches to DENY responsibility! You're flat out wrong. I can most definitely blame somebody for the result of their life. I can and will blame myself, for how my life plays out. Why? because I HOLD MYSELF ACCOUNTABLE for my actions. If somebody lays around and smokes weed all day and never amounts to anything in his life... I'm sorry to break your playground philosophy, but this is their fault. Once again, if somebody drinks heavily, and keeps drinking heavily and their liver fails... this is their fault. If a smoker is on the brink of cancer, and keeps smoking, and then gets cancer... this is not a result of sole "being" (your ridiculous 'is'), but rather a direct result of "becoming." The smoker smoked, thus gave himself cancer. He is at blame. It is his fault. And he is responsible for the way his life played out. Sorry to hurt your feelings. :\

I do judge and blame many times. This is because I will not deny the way I feel about these people... and it is what makes me a thinking homosapien to have thoughts, and thus, judge and blame. You're damn right I judge and blame.


Sorry to post again but I would like to talk a little bit about meekness and our ego. If we cannot be meek towards all aspects of our life, then our ego has control. I'm not saying that if you are meek you will get rid of all your ego. But if you can become meek or humble, then you will not let your ego make your choices in life. Too often we let ego make the choices in our life and when we do we don't make the correct decisions. Let go of your ego by being humble, and you can see the truth of life. We must acknowledge before we can let go, and we must let go before we can change. Ego is by far, the biggest obstacle known to mankind but we can overcome it and live truly enlightened by believing in ourselves.

If your first post broke my heart to see, it was this one that completely shattered it. The nihilism you promote makes me sick to my stomach.

Ego is what SHOULD make our choices in life. Within our ego, there is room for compassion and love and caring... but even those we love or care for, we desire to help and do nice things for, due to none other than our beautiful ego. Ego is what separates man from beast. I say we should make decisions in accordance to our wonderful ego! I say we should break the cages we've strung up for thousands of years, and finally listen to our egos again! You speak of enlightenment by means of murdering the ego... but can't you see? Enlightenment would mean living in accordance to our ego!

You see ego as an obstacle... as something to be overcome. But jesus man, Ego is really all we've got.

Sorry if any of this came off mean spirited or overly harsh. I wish you wouldn't take it as some sort of "ignorant attack." It's just the things that you say, are exactly what I'm speaking of in this thread... and it honestly hurts me inside to see humans, yes,you're a human whether you like it or not, talk like you.

Sigh.

Every person is equal in your belief... and this is no different than the Christian belief I am dissenting, that being "all souls are equal before God." You also say to accept everything thrown your way, call it all good and accept accept accept. This too, is no different than Christian stoicism that says regardless of how shitty your life may be, call it God's master plan and quit complaining. My friend, regardless of what you may call your beliefs, you are a Christian. Regardless of whether you believe in a God or worship a Jesus Christ, you are a Christian. Like I said, I know a handful of atheists who are Christians, and the words they speak could be summed up in your two above posts.

Who are you to say im a christian? Umm, you can accept life for what it is and that is called being personally accountable. The christian belief is different than my belief because I give no power to a God. The power to accept comes from ME. So your point is nothing. Thank you for reinforcing my belief.....

What sickness do you suffer, that makes you loathe your very own skin? This I do not understand, I cannot understand. You call hate, anger, fear and jealousy negative human emotions... yet even if this is so, can you honestly deny these emotions exist?

Hahaha, did I ever say I loathed myself? Of course not because I don't think about myself negatively like that. I love myself so much and I love you too. I don't deny those emotions, I ACKNOWLEDGE them for what they are. They are useless words which only create negative feelings which then create negative action. Theres a big difference between acknowldging and denying. You must deny many things in your life all the time to be using that kind of thought pattern.

You say to improve mankind we must let go of these emotions... yet by doing so, so you take away everything in us that makes us mankind! If I could for instant believe that there WAS a god in this universe, an almighty creator... the things you seek to destroy I would bless and thank Him for! How thankful I am... that these emotions do exist in our human spirits. How thankful I am, that if somebody wrongs me, I do have the ability to get a little pissed off, and desire a positive change. How thankful I am, that if I am in danger, everything human inside of me screams fight of flight, and gives to me fear. Essentially, the belief structure you promote is no different than wishing to shut down your sensory neurons and live life pain free. This is a nice way to live... until your feet catch on fire. You're absolutely wrong weedman.

By acknowledging these emotions it does not make us unhuman. You are just accepting that there will be negativity, and never hoping to change it. I am also thankful for all those emotions and I am feeling some of them right now. But I try to acknowldge them and learn from them rather than just let them have control over me. I did not say shut down your sensory neurons, all I said was ACKNOWLEDGE negative feelings and change them into positive ones. ITs a pretty simple concept that you somehow felt you had to say was WRONG WRONG WRONG. Why are you soo scared to be wrong? Why do you always have to be Right? Because you can't be right all the time or you will be a lonely lonely man.

Your philosophy is so insanely and illy backwards. Negative feelings are what inspire us to change the negative, to fix the negative, and set things positive. Your stoic, "all is good" approach is what causes the negative to linger and linger and never go away. Your philosophy is nothing more than fertile soil for negativity to live in and grow, and never be abolished. All will not be "good". There will always be "bad"... regardless of how far away you manage to run from your human spirit, and learn to deny this vital and truest truth. Even IF you can honestly somehow consciously deny it... it will always be there subconsciously. Your philosophy is unhealthy. Your philosophy is marketed towards the weak, and thus makes you weak. Your philosophy is no different than Christianity. My advice to you, in regards to your little set of ideals, is to stand out in the cold rain wearing nothing at all. When you catch pneumonia, tell yourself that "all is good", and don't bother seeing a doctor, because remember, everything is indeed fine and good. Let it turn into something fatal, and still wearing your rock solid smile, leave this world and die a "happy" man. Die a useless and meaningless man. If you are so unhappy living as a human in this world, then take your smile and leave this world. If you're going to deny life... then please, deny it completely and leave it to us that are happy to be here. I'm sorry if this all sounds harsh to you... and I fear you're too lost to see at all where I'm coming from. I don't mean it literally, but honestly... do you even see what you're saying here? Sigh.

Negativity brings negativity just like war only creates more war.
Positivity brings more positivity like Peace only makes more Peace.
You my misinformed friend, think that because I ACCEPT life than that makes me powerless to it. I do not let myself be powerless to life. Being negative has actually been proven to make yourself more powerless to your life. Because if you always are thinking negative, then all you can do is worry and get more anxious about the negative feelings you have. Negative thoughts are energy drainers, while positive thoughts are energy generators. I still know what risks and I'm not going to let myself die. You make sooo many assumtions about me! Someone you don't even know. I agree with you on christianity and how it is stupid to have complete faith in god to come save you. I DO NOT believe that way. YOu can say I do as much as you want in as many ways as you want but that will never make it so.

And no. Nothing could be worse for humans than to be meek or humble in aspects such as greatness, courage, power, culture, intellect, individuality, etc. Hell, if you want to be meek in these aspects, than go right ahead... but I sure hope that the great, the courageous, the powerful, the intellectual, the top most and what I would consider "best" human individuals do not follow your footsteps and drown in your curse. Let the great be great. Let the brave be brave. Let the smart be smart. These are the TRUE improvers of mankind... not those that deny everything human inside of them, as you suggest. The greatest humans should not be held back by humanity, and these ridiculous and sick, anti human moral systems we've set up. Why pull them into the mire, when we could let them soar? I don't want to live my life alongside everyone else. I want to soar. The best thing I could do for humanity, would be to reach a point where I "look down" on humanity. These are the figures mankind truly needs, if we ever wish to overcome ourselves or improve ourselves.

Also, I find it highly ironic you say that we should be personally accountable... yet the way to do this is to let go of right and wrong and not judge ourselves. Although I do not believe in any absolute right or wrong... how can you be personally accountable for anything if you do not view your very own actions as right or wrong, good or bad, etc. Your philosophy preaches the exact OPPOSITE of personal accountability... it preaches to DENY responsibility! You're flat out wrong. I can most definitely blame somebody for the result of their life. I can and will blame myself, for how my life plays out. Why? because I HOLD MYSELF ACCOUNTABLE for my actions. If somebody lays around and smokes weed all day and never amounts to anything in his life... I'm sorry to break your playground philosophy, but this is their fault. Once again, if somebody drinks heavily, and keeps drinking heavily and their liver fails... this is their fault. If a smoker is on the brink of cancer, and keeps smoking, and then gets cancer... this is not a result of sole "being" (your ridiculous 'is'), but rather a direct result of "becoming." The smoker smoked, thus gave himself cancer. He is at blame. It is his fault. And he is responsible for the way his life played out. Sorry to hurt your feelings. :\

I do judge and blame many times. This is because I will not deny the way I feel about these people... and it is what makes me a thinking homosapien to have thoughts, and thus, judge and blame. You're damn right I judge and blame.




If your first post broke my heart to see, it was this one that completely shattered it. The nihilism you promote makes me sick to my stomach.

Ego is what SHOULD make our choices in life. Within our ego, there is room for compassion and love and caring... but even those we love or care for, we desire to help and do nice things for, due to none other than our beautiful ego. Ego is what separates man from beast. I say we should make decisions in accordance to our wonderful ego! I say we should break the cages we've strung up for thousands of years, and finally listen to our egos again! You speak of enlightenment by means of murdering the ego... but can't you see? Enlightenment would mean living in accordance to our ego!

You see ego as an obstacle... as something to be overcome. But jesus man, Ego is really all we've got.

Sorry if any of this came off mean spirited or overly harsh. I wish you wouldn't take it as some sort of "ignorant attack." It's just the things that you say, are exactly what I'm speaking of in this thread... and it honestly hurts me inside to see humans, yes,you're a human whether you like it or not, talk like you.


When you judge or blame others and yourself for your life you take away your POWER. plain and simple. think about it, I am stuck at a shitty job, addicted to drugs. SO i decide to judge and blame the events of my life for how shitty my life is. I make it so when I do that. If I want to change the person I am. I must ACKNOWLEDGE my mistakes, not judge or blame. ACKNOWKLEDGING is the key to change. WE will always judge and blame, but we do it farrrrr tooo often and it doesn't help us. Now you can go your way believeing what you want, but you will never change my beliefs with your negative spiralling thoughts.... LOok up the definition of being personally accountable. Your definition is far off seriously. You know nothing about being personally accountable.

Sigh.

You must be pretty tired after trying soooo soo hard to say that you are Right. You my good friend are soo scared to be wrong. You are insecure. ACKNOWLEDGE this and that will be the only way you can change.

"Why athiests are soo pushy"

Athiests are pushy because they are egotistical, just like everyone on the planet. But some people are worse then others. Buddhists, toaists, and monks are by far the least egotistical people because their religion focuses on acknowledging ego and not letting it have control. To the OP, you my friend, are just as egotistical as people with religious beliefs, you just don't believe in God. This whole thread is you justifying why you should be allowed to press your beliefs. If more people didn't let ego control, our world would get along much more. Fight the EGO. NO ones beliefs are BETTER, we ARE equal. Get rid of negative and bring out the positive. I love you man no matter what you say, and the only belief I need for that is the Belief in LOVE. If everyone believed in LOVE and only LOVE, our World would be drowning in Love. Life wouldn't be perfect, but what can be perfect? WHAT IS PERFECT? Accept life for what it IS. Life can neither be good or bad, it can only BE. Everyday we have the CHOICE, to believe life is good, or bad. We can choose that life is always good. There will still always be bad, but it won't have control. TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR LIFE. Or give away your Power and forever be unhappy. Every aspect of life is a choice we need to make. We can decide the be happy with what it is, or be unhappy. So many people are stuck on being unhappy. I speak these words in HOPE, that it Will SING true in someone elses MIND or HEART and HELP them be TRULY HAPPY! :)

Okay, but see this is the central difference between religious pushiness and atheistic pushiness. I don't care what you believe in, and it doesn't harm you, hurt you, hold you back, or effect you in any way what so ever. You (only assuming you are religious) don't care what I believe in, but I suffer from it every day.

You not caring, and me not caring, have very different consequences.

I'm not a christian.

"I'm not an atheist, I just don't believe in god."

Pick up a dictionary, you dumb fuck.

Thus I begin my long reply.


First off, and only because you insult my intelligence:
ac·count·a·ble /əˈkaʊntəbəl/ Pronunciation Key - [uh-koun-tuh-buhl]

–adjective

1. subject to the obligation to report, explain, or justify something; responsible; answerable.

Try to remember this is at the top of my post. We will come back to it later.


Who are you to say im a christian? Umm, you can accept life for what it is and that is called being personally accountable. The christian belief is different than my belief because I give no power to a God. The power to accept comes from ME. So your point is nothing. Thank you for reinforcing my belief.....

Like I said, I know plenty of atheists who are in fact Christian. You, "giving no power to a god", fall into the exact same category. God or not, you follow the same Christian morality that the most faithful Christians would follow. From the four posts you've left me with, I have seen enough of you to conclude that your worldview runs parallel to the teachings of Jesus Christ. The mindless stoicism. The abandonment of instinct and the human spirit. The way you preach the regression of man. Your blind "turn the other cheek no matter what" attitude. Your weakness. Your nihilism. Now in the real world, there may be a bit more depth to you than the burnt out and utterly confused hippie you paint yourself to be on here... but regarding the aspects we are speaking of and debating, you have given me one hundred percent justification to make the conclusion that you, are in fact, a Christian. You're worse than a true Christian however. At least the Christian lives his life by these tenets you propose, in order to get into an all blissful heaven and avoid burning in the eternal fires of hell. You sell your humanity without a god. You sell your humanity just for kicks.

You are a Christian. The more you talk, the more you confirm this. Thank you for reinforcing my belief...

Hahaha, did I ever say I loathed myself? Of course not because I don't think about myself negatively like that. I love myself so much and I love you too. I don't deny those emotions, I ACKNOWLEDGE them for what they are. They are useless words which only create negative feelings which then create negative action. Theres a big difference between acknowldging and denying. You must deny many things in your life all the time to be using that kind of thought pattern.

You find this funny? You didn't have to say that you loathed yourself. One can put it together just from dipping into the way you view the world and mankind. I'm sure you do love yourself, the way you speak makes me believe you love me as well. However the love you speak of is cheap and shallow. It's real world equivalent would be a husband who knows his wife cheats on him, feels the way she hurts him and treats him like shit... yet he still tells himself that he loves her. This is the way you love me. This is the way you love yourself. It is a cheap love... once again, it is a Christian love. You devalue human emotions such as anger, and using the same analogy again, if you were this battered and bitterly abused husband, you would live with the bullshit this abusive wife puts you through until the day you would die, without any change. Negative feelings create negative actions? If I were in this metaphorical husband's shoes... I would embrace the negative feelings that my wife caused in me, and I would file divorce! Can you truly consider this negative action?

If somebody were to insult me, cause me pain, trample my rights as a free human being... I would without a doubt be filled with negative feelings. However where as your approach would be to try to ignore this (and maybe consciously, but never subconsciously succeed), and say it's not in your control and that it's "all okay and good"... I would instead say something to this person! I would try to fix the issue, so that I wouldn't have to live with (or ignore) the negative feelings that are caused by these intrusive actions every single day! You call this a negative action... but I see it as a very positive one! It's an action with the intent to fix the situation. There is a problem, and rather than NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for it and try to pretend it doesn't exist... I'm going to ACKNOWLEDGE that it very much DOES exist, that the feelings it causes are VERY VERY REAL... and with that said, and with the intent to fix things, I'm going to address the problem! Your morality is a passive one. How you can think passivity fixes problems in the world (assuming you admit there ARE problems in the world), I do not understand. My philosophy is a philosophy of action. If something is broken, fix it. When your microwave dies you don't put food in it and press buttons just for fun.

Yes, there is a big difference between acknowledging and denying. What does that have to do with anything? The point that I'm making is that once you acknowledge a problem, you try to ignore it by reducing it down to a bunch of "useless words." You acknowledge the problem, but then deny your desire to fix it. It's a two step method. Rather than acknowledge and fix... you acknowledge and deny. You acknowledge and ignore. The world is a place, that has problems in it. That's the way it is. But rather than try to approach methods at fixing these problems, you take the passive aggressive approach and find comfort in saying "it's not in my control." Self accountability. You're the one supposedly preaching it. Take some responsibility and fix things every once in a while. Instead of saying it's not in your hands (no different than a way a Christian would say it's in God's hands), why don't you hold yourself accountable for the conditions in your life, conditions of the world, and try to set things right?! The human race is accountable for the world today. Whether you like it or not. It will be accountable for the world tomorrow, whether you like it or not. Your contradictions weedman, are so thick and heavy that one could choke on them! You're so confused... and if you could only see your philosophy DOES preach zero self accountability, then the world would be a slightly better place.

Cut the all-loving hippie bullshit, and take a look at the world without your "only good" goggles. See the world as it truly exists, outside of you blinding optimism. There are problems. A lot of them are human caused. I do not love you too. :(

And no... i'm not denying "a lot of things" when they enter my life. I am taking them in, looking at them, judging them, and passive value as either good bad or neutral... and then I am keeping them or fixing them. I am taking responsibility for "a lot of things" in my life. I hold myself accountable for "a lot of things".

By acknowledging these emotions it does not make us unhuman. You are just accepting that there will be negativity, and never hoping to change it. I am also thankful for all those emotions and I am feeling some of them right now. But I try to acknowldge them and learn from them rather than just let them have control over me. I did not say shut down your sensory neurons, all I said was ACKNOWLEDGE negative feelings and change them into positive ones. ITs a pretty simple concept that you somehow felt you had to say was WRONG WRONG WRONG. Why are you soo scared to be wrong? Why do you always have to be Right? Because you can't be right all the time or you will be a lonely lonely man.

Acknowledging these emotions does not make us "unhuman" (inhuman). Denying them and ignoring them does. See Above. I am accepting there will be negativity, BUT I am not okay with this, and rather than ignore, I set out to fix it and abolish it. See above. It's good to try to learn from these negative feelings. They should not control your life. But they do not magically turn into positive feelings, or positive aspects just because a lesson is learned. They are very much still there, whether you learn from them or not. Your turning these negatives to positives is nothing more than merely, once again, ignoring the issues and taking no accountability for them. To learn why this is wrong, See Above. It is a simple concept. It is an overly simple concept, and it is a ridiculous concept. It is a passive concept that will never fix a damn thing, and never get anything done. It is a concept, that is in fact wrong wrong wrong. And don't flatter yourself, it's not that I'm "afraid" to be wrong at all, it's just that once again your theory is stupid and you are "wrong wrong wrong." If you still don't understand, see above.

And as much as you might feel differently, I would rather stand among a very few great men, then stand beside a billion fucking idiots.


Negativity brings negativity just like war only creates more war.
Positivity brings more positivity like Peace only makes more Peace.
You my misinformed friend, think that because I ACCEPT life than that makes me powerless to it. I do not let myself be powerless to life. Being negative has actually been proven to make yourself more powerless to your life. Because if you always are thinking negative, then all you can do is worry and get more anxious about the negative feelings you have. Negative thoughts are energy drainers, while positive thoughts are energy generators. I still know what risks and I'm not going to let myself die. You make sooo many assumtions about me! Someone you don't even know. I agree with you on christianity and how it is stupid to have complete faith in god to come save you. I DO NOT believe that way. YOu can say I do as much as you want in as many ways as you want but that will never make it so.


I am very much against war. I very much for peace. But if I was in charge of a country... and some other country was sending suicide bombers in my streets, killing my innocent civilians, launching rockets into my cities... I would not sit back and pretend the problem didn't exist. Instead, I would do something about it. I would in fact fight back... or do whatever it takes (preferably diplomatic measures would work) in order to stop this problem. Once again, I would fix the problem. The problem with war today, is that it rarely happens like this. It is instigated for worthless reasons. However this is off topic... so back to the point.

This part of your argument made me honestly laugh. They proved being negative makes you powerless?! Honestly? I would love to see that fucking data. How the hell would somebody measure this kind of thing? It is not something that can be scientifically or rationally proved or disproved. Even if it was "proved"... it would not mean that they proved that being negative makes you powerless. The only thing they can do is reach a conclusion based on an experiment that acts completely outside of the relationship between negativity and power. What douche bag of a new age scientist did this study? Please, do post your source. I could use a good laugh. And you, my friend, put too much faith in science. Anything these days can be "proved". But you're a bumbling fool if you use this "scientific" proof, as proof for your argument.

And once again... when something negative enters my life, I do not let it take control and even if it DOES cause me worry and grief, etc etc... these things are enough of a motivation for me to FIX this negative thing, so that I don't have to live with it for the rest of my life! Listen to yourself man! You sound like a fucking idiot with your "energy drainers and energy generators"... Jesus Christ, grow up!

Don't get me wrong, I do know the power of attitude. Charles Swindoll (the irony, right?), 10% what happens to me, 90% how I react to it. I find truth in this. But there is a huge difference between knowing the power of attitude, and ALWAYS having a positive attitude. Blind optimism will never fix a damn thing. There is a time for a good attitude, and although I wouldn't call it a "bad" attitude... there is most definitely a time to say "this sucks" and "how can I fix it?". How else will anything, ever get fixed? "Attitude is everything"... sure... but the stoic approach of accepting every ounce of shit thrown your way is no healthy way to live your life. I already explained why I consider you a Christain. See above.


When you judge or blame others and yourself for your life you take away your POWER. plain and simple. think about it, I am stuck at a shitty job, addicted to drugs. SO i decide to judge and blame the events of my life for how shitty my life is. I make it so when I do that. If I want to change the person I am. I must ACKNOWLEDGE my mistakes, not judge or blame. ACKNOWKLEDGING is the key to change. WE will always judge and blame, but we do it farrrrr tooo often and it doesn't help us. Now you can go your way believeing what you want, but you will never change my beliefs with your negative spiralling thoughts.... LOok up the definition of being personally accountable. Your definition is far off seriously. You know nothing about being personally accountable.

Judging and blaming others takes away from my "power"? Is this what that scientific study of yours found? Your example is so full of contradictions that it would be hard for anybody to understand and follow. A person with a shitty job, who is addicted to drugs and cannot control his addiction, is whether he admits or not STILL in a shitty situation. It's not the acknowledgment of these horrible conditions that make his situation shitty... it is the conditions themselves. Still following me? So, how does this drug addict fix his problem then? First, yes, he must acknowledge the problem. You've got it that far... however what you don't seem to understand, is that if he doesn't see anything "wrong" with what he is doing to himself, then how can you honestly believe anything is ever going to change?! He must acknowledge the problem, yes, but he also must cast a JUDGMENT that what he is doing is making his life shitty... so that he can change that and fix his shitty situation. Life doesn't get shitty once you realize it's shitty. If you're doing things to make your life shitty, it already will be. And if you can't cast a judgment that what you're doing is making your life shitty, if you can't take the PERSONAL ACCOUNTABILITY (see what it means to be accountable, at the top of this page) that your actions are in fact resposibile for the outcome of your life... then all you will ever do is DIE knowing your life has been shitty. If acknowledgment is the only step you take... then the situation will remain the same, the only difference being that it has been acknowledged. I have little faith you are following what I am saying Please let me know if I am wasting my breath here. It is you weedman, who has demonstrated the fact that YOU know nothing about personal accountability. Once again, you are confused son.

You must be pretty tired after trying soooo soo hard to say that you are Right. You my good friend are soo scared to be wrong. You are insecure. ACKNOWLEDGE this and that will be the only way you can change.

If you still believe this by now, you're a fucking idiot and there's no hope in explaining it further.

Athiests are pushy because they are egotistical, just like everyone on the planet. But some people are worse then others. Buddhists, toaists, and monks are by far the least egotistical people because their religion focuses on acknowledging ego and not letting it have control. To the OP, you my friend, are just as egotistical as people with religious beliefs, you just don't believe in God. This whole thread is you justifying why you should be allowed to press your beliefs. If more people didn't let ego control, our world would get along much more. Fight the EGO. NO ones beliefs are BETTER, we ARE equal. Get rid of negative and bring out the positive. I love you man no matter what you say, and the only belief I need for that is the Belief in LOVE. If everyone believed in LOVE and only LOVE, our World would be drowning in Love. Life wouldn't be perfect, but what can be perfect? WHAT IS PERFECT? Accept life for what it IS. Life can neither be good or bad, it can only BE. Everyday we have the CHOICE, to believe life is good, or bad. We can choose that life is always good. There will still always be bad, but it won't have control. TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR LIFE. Or give away your Power and forever be unhappy. Every aspect of life is a choice we need to make. We can decide the be happy with what it is, or be unhappy. So many people are stuck on being unhappy. I speak these words in HOPE, that it Will SING true in someone elses MIND or HEART and HELP them be TRULY HAPPY!

Buddhism and Taoism are the least egotistical, because they preach PURE nihilism and denial of life. Buddhism is one of the most negative and inhuman philosophies that exists, due to the idea that Nirvana can only be reached once you ESCAPE this world, your ego, your will, your humanity, and everything that makes you you.

I'm half surprised you use Taoism as an example for this point. Although you can say that the taoist is rather stoic in the fact that he simply "lives with" the unity of all things... at least he understands there is a place for both good and bad, negative and positive, love and hate, happiness and sadness, excitement and anger, etc. One cannot exist without the other, according to the taoist. Why is it then, you try so bad to ignore these negative aspects of life?

Weedman, you're wrong again. I am actually more egotistical than people with religious beliefs. And I am damn proud of that. I'm not only pressing my beliefs here, I'm justifying why ALL atheists should be pressing their beliefs. Why it's okay to press these beliefs, rather than non secular religious beliefs. Once again, your Christianity shines forth in your saying that we are all equal, no different than being all equal under God.

Your beliefs are not equal to mine. Your beliefs are weak. You weedman, are weak, because your philosophy is weak. Your philosophy's weakness is not without reason. It first flourished in the first century within the Roman Empire. There is no coincidence that slavery as well, highly flourished during this time. It is estimated that 350,000 out of a Roman population of about 900,000, consisted of slaves. Imagine a society where over one third of your population consists of people who are forced into hard work, shitty living conditions, no education, and manual labor. How do you keep these people from throwing a big fit? You promote a philosophy that tells them it's okay to suffer, and that they are suffering FOR a reason larger than life... a reason they cannot understand. Stoicism is the justification for suffering, and living on one's knees. Stoicism is a philosophy of slaves... a way of comforting human slaves. The figure above does not even count those average romans who lived in shitty conditions, and would also find stoicism quite appealing. This is no different than the reason Christianity would (down the road) flourish as well! Your suffering is all part of God's master plan! "Blessed are the meek!"

Stoicism and Christianity both were marketed beautifully, and hit their target audience like a nail on its head. They were designed for the weak... and what they preach is weakness.

If everybody believed in love and only love, then we would in fact be drowning in love. But thats not humanity, so this idea is quite irreverent. The truth is, whether you choose to see it or not, sooner or later somebody is going to come along and feel something deep inside of them, something HUMAN thats been buried deep inside of them, and do something outside of the realm of love and only love. When this happens... somebody is going to get hurt. And if everybody has your "all is positive" philosophy, nobody is going to be there to clean things up.

Lets see...

Perfect is something to strive for, even if it can't be achieved. Your wrong when you say life just "is'... it can most definitely be bad or good... but we do have the choice to pretend whatever we want. I'm a happy person, I've got a hold of more personal power than you, I think you're living a pipe dream and I think your smiley last couple of sentences is some of the silliest bullshit I've ever seen in my life.

That's all. If you're still this stupid after reading all of this, I have no hope in explaining things further.

Its time to move on, and go back to the original topic of this thread.

Guesss what KAzzza. I just skipped all of your posts because I seen that you were being just as ignorant and close minded. I decided to let it go because neither I nor you are right. I hope you had fun writing all those negative paragraphs. Because I sure had fun not reading them ahaha.

That's all. If you're still this stupid after reading all of this, I have no hope in explaining things further.

"What can a thoughtful man hope for mankind on Earth, given the experience of the past million years?

Nothing."

Guesss what KAzzza. I just skipped all of your posts because instanlty I could see how caught up you are in being right. I seen that you were being just as ignorant and close minded. I decided to let it go because neither I nor you are right. HOnestly, this enitre thread is you trying to justify your ego. Nothing other than that. I hope you had fun writing all those negative paragraphs. Because I sure had fun not reading them ahaha.

I will leave this thread and leave you to your lonely, insecure, negative, sad self. Have fun living a life where there is always more negative to see than positive.

I wouldn't expect anything other than just that "weed man".

If you could handle my criticism then hopefully you would be capable of seeing how the rest of this post is irreverent and completely off base. But I guess that's the problem with kids today... they're just not able to put up with the criticism. Hugs and pats on the back are the only way of communicating with you people. Although your immaturity has shortchanged me the satisfaction of breaking your smiley little heart, just typing all of that up has furthered both my intellect and my philosophy... and further confirmed my superiority over individuals such as yourself. I also believe the above words will add gunpowder to my philosophy, and that others coming to this thread for an actual intellectual conversation/debate will learn or at least grow from watching me put you back in your pathetic and weak standing in this world.

It would have been fun to watch you squirm... but I would still rather do away with you entirely.

On with the thread.

Kazz, I'd really like to reply at length to some of the points you raise however as you already know I have laptop probs at the moment (I can get it to run for a few minutes at a time then it dies horribly for a couple of hours).

So please don't take my silence as disinterest. You were right and I was wrong, this is a good and valid thread...well sorta maybe kinda anyway.

You talk about my immaturity but its soo funny because I was the calm, repectful, person, but as soon as I VOICE an OPINION you get all up in arms.
A MERE difference of opinion, and you get sooo defencive.
Also, many times you say I deny or ignore negativity. I don't deny or say that we should ignore negative thoughts, I said we should look at them, ACKNOWLEDGE them, and then try to get past them. I never once twisted your words but you have twisted mine too many to count.
You must be really unsure of your beliefs because if you were sure in them, then you wouldn't ever get defencive. I do admit, I also get defensive of my beliefs, but atleast my beliefs give Me the POWER of my life by having positive energy generating thoughts. I don't need religioin, all I need is the logic of my mind. Thinking positively can never do you any real harm. You still watch for risks, buut yoou stay positive and dont' WORRY. Everyone always worrys and regrets but it is pointless and drains all of our energy. Regretting keeps you in the past, while worrying keeps you scared of the future. Negative thoughts makes us powerless, weak, and very scared. Life isn't fun scared.
People who are Strong in their beliefs never become defensive.
Why would you be defensive of something if theres nothing that could bother it?
Humans are scared of losing their Belief Systems. And thats the way beliefs work.
You believe in something because it helps you make the "right" choices in life. Humans are ingrained to keep their belief system if it works.
But sometimes our beliefs don't always work in the long run.
Thats when we come to a realizaiton and change our beliefs slightly as we need to. It's called getting Wiser. You have such a closed mind that it will be hard for you to ever become wiser unless of course you open your mind and live life positive.
You my unaware friend are much more immature than you think. ITs been good talking to you because I see myself in you and its a test for me to not think negatively. Hahah have a good life.

Yes, there is a big difference between acknowledging and denying. What does that have to do with anything? The point that I'm making is that once you acknowledge a problem, you try to ignore it by reducing it down to a bunch of "useless words." You acknowledge the problem, but then deny your desire to fix it. It's a two step method. Rather than acknowledge and fix... you acknowledge and deny. You acknowledge and ignore.

The more we ACKNOWELDGE the LESS we ignore. That's WHY I acknowledge. Think about it. I dont reduce it to some words, I acknowledge, accept it for what it is, then starting trying to change it the best I can. You say I ignore, but never in any of my words did I Ever say that. You are absolutely BLIND as a BAT.

The world is a place, that has problems in it. That's the way it is. But rather than try to approach methods at fixing these problems, you take the passive aggressive approach and find comfort in saying "it's not in my control."

I never say that life is not in my control. I say the exact opposite. I believe that everything that happens in my life is a result of the choices I have made. I refuse to make myself a victim to outside circumstances. Because it takes away your POWER.
You my friend are a victim everyday to the things that happen in your life that you cant control. IF we make ourselves victims we take away our power to be happy in life. Lets say I get robbed, stabbed, and forever changed by the incident, I could be scared or worried that it would happen again and never go out when its late, but that would just make my life shitty. Or lets say I was abused as a child by a family member, I could live my life negatively and have a absoultely horrible life if I CHOOSE to. Its all a CHOICE. My way of thinking doesnt not make me lazy, uncaring, or helpless. It does the exact opposite.

Self accountability. You're the one supposedly preaching it. Take some responsibility and fix things every once in a while. Instead of saying it's not in your hands (no different than a way a Christian would say it's in God's hands), why don't you hold yourself accountable for the conditions in your life, conditions of the world, and try to set things right?! The human race is accountable for the world today. Whether you like it or not. It will be accountable for the world tomorrow, whether you like it or not. Your contradictions weedman, are so thick and heavy that one could choke on them! You're so confused... and if you could only see your philosophy DOES preach zero self accountability, then the world would be a slightly better place

Its not in gods hands, its in my hands all the time because I accept life for what it is.
IN no way does my philosophy preach zero self accountability. MY "philosophy" makes me not be a victim to things that aren't in my control. People who make themselves the victim, have no power, and live unhappy. Because life isn't fun if your always just a victim to circumstances you cant control. There are some things you state about my beliefs, that I did not say or mean. You just see what you want to see. I just have a hard time reading your words and not trying atleast a little bit to make you think more.
Always question your beliefs, and stand back and take a real look at your thoughts.
90% of our thoughts are said to be subconscious while the other 10% are actually consious. People everywhere are so unaware. Me and you.

One of my biggest beefs with Christian morality, comes with the "blessed are the meek" idea. To me this promotes laziness and weakness... that although might not hold me back personally, have held humanity/society back from reaching it's capable potential.

To YOU this promotes laziness. Being humble, or meek in no way promotes laziness. You having lazy mindsets, promotes you into thinking being humble is lazy. You see yourself as lazy and weak deep down and thats why you focus on it all the time. You say it makes society lazy but really you are just lazy. What we see in ourselves, we think and talk about more often. You can deny deny deny but deep down you always look at things negatively. I can look at meekness or being humble, and it makes me feel energized. I feel the Power and desire to do what I want in life. Its all about your mindset. No matter what anyones belief is. Religious people are egotistical in how they push their beliefs, but you my friend do the exact same. And then you say that you like your ego. How can you say that your ego is good, and others is not?
You think your shit don't stink? HAH. You contradict yourself many times.

One of my biggest beefs with Christian morality, comes with the "blessed are the meek" idea. To me this promotes laziness and weakness... that although might not hold me back personally, have held humanity/society back from reaching it's capable potential.

To YOU this promotes laziness. Being humble, or meek in no way promotes laziness. You having lazy mindsets, promotes you into thinking being humble is lazy. You see yourself as lazy and weak deep down and thats why you focus on it all the time. You say it makes society lazy but really you are just lazy. What we see in ourselves, we think and talk about more often. You can deny deny deny but deep down you always look at things negatively. I can look at meekness or being humble, and it makes me feel energized. I feel the Power and desire to do what I want in life. Its all about your mindset. No matter what anyones belief is. Religious people are egotistical in how they push their beliefs, but you my friend do the exact same. And then you say that you like your ego. How can you say that your ego is good, and others is not?
You think your shit don't stink? HAH. You contradict yourself many times.

You are right. I do not think the statement blessed are the meek promotes laziness at all. What I do think is the statement is meant as a form of (yet agian) social control and order. It means don't rock the boat, talk out of turn or step out of line and you will be blessed. It is a way to make the flock more docile so the shepard can take their money and fuck their children.

Praise the lord.

Ego is what SHOULD make our choices in life. Within our ego, there is room for compassion and love and caring... but even those we love or care for, we desire to help and do nice things for, due to none other than our beautiful ego. Ego is what separates man from beast. I say we should make decisions in accordance to our wonderful ego! I say we should break the cages we've strung up for thousands of years, and finally listen to our egos again! You speak of enlightenment by means of murdering the ego... but can't you see? Enlightenment would mean living in accordance to our ego!

You say we should let EGO choose, well if everyone let EGO choose, then our world would be full of people who say I'm right, your wrong, and i'm better and your wrong. That is the beginning of wars, genocide, and all around chaos.
You must be humble in your beliefs or people will only be more resistant to them. I even have a problem with my ego because right now I am pretty much saying that my views are "better" than yours. But atleast I acknowldge my ego. Ego is what makes humans cruel, vindictive, vengeful, angry, and all those other bad emotions. Without ego we would all just be in pure bliss. Pure enlightenment. You are just soo dependant on your ego. It runs your life man. The fact is it runs everyones life too much, we must step back and get away from it. When ego has control, we make emotional decisions which are known to be less logical.

You see ego as an obstacle... as something to be overcome. But jesus man, Ego is really all we've got.

Ego is all you've got. And your EGO is soo scared to be wrong, that it will incessantly say that it is right no matter what. And guess what, that's where wars, genocide, and many other violent things happen. Ego is the cause of almost all of man made problems. There is no way you can deny this without lying to yourself. Ego does more harm than good.

I laugh at myself because I said I was leaving the thread but then my EGO got hurt and I came back to make it feel better. But by acknowledging it right now, I can atleast HOPE to get past it. You are hiding from yourself, your are scared to see, your fear your beliefs will be shattered and you will have a hard time knowing what to think. I used to be a christian, but once I questioned myself and used pure logical thinking, my belief system was shattered. For a while I was really scared cause I didn't know what to think. But eventually I realized that all that is important is believeing in SELF. I have the Power, not my EGO, and I CHOOSE to be Happy no matter what because it all comes down to CHOICE.

THE POWER OF CHOICE.

My... you've certainly had it away with this thread weedman.

I'll add that it's important not to let interior forces like fear or hatred effect that choice.

That is all.

You are right. I do not think the statement blessed are the meek promotes laziness at all. What I do think is the statement is meant as a form of (yet agian) social control and order. It means don't rock the boat, talk out of turn or step out of line and you will be blessed. It is a way to make the flock more docile so the shepard can take their money and fuck their children.

Praise the lord.

Except you bring christianity into this. MEEKNESS comes from HUMAN BRAINS. No where else. Which means meekness is just a human mindset. It is being humble. Being humble doesn't mean that you can't step out of line. Being humble doesn't mean that you are easily controlled and ordered around. It is actually the Opposite. If I am humble, then I don't press my views on anyone else because I am very SURE in them. If you are sure in your Beliefs, then how can someone order you aroound and tell you what to believe or do. THey can't. Plain and simple, both of you have a skewed attitude towards being humble thats all. Every single belief, is just a way of social control and order so your statement could be used for almost aanything. WE USE our BELIEFS in order to CONTROL and do what we think is RIGHT to maintain "ORDER". You don't like humbleness because you are scared of Humility. Humility brings us to be humble and feel that we are not any better than any other. Because the poorest, least educated person on the earth is just as GOOD as you and me. Get off your high horse buddy. You actually are just as low as every other person.

Definition of humble: Humility is the state of being humble. A humble person is generally thought to be unpretentious and modest: someone who does not think that he or she is better or more important than others. Humility is not to be confused with humiliation, which is the act of making someone else feel ashamed, and is seen as something completely different.

My... you've certainly had it away with this thread weedman.

I'll add that it's important not to let interior forces like fear or hatred effect that choice.

That is all.

Hah I have haven't I. I believe that the most important thing in life no matter what is to acknowledge what we do, see, feel and believe. Only by acknowledging, can we begin to accept, and then change to a more "TRUE" way. So many peopl never acknowledge their "true" "deep" thoughts. They think they think consiously but really their subconscious has almost all the control. We must acknowledge when we hear the whisper of our subconscious and we must question it if we ever want to find any TRUTH in life. I am a very argumentative person, and have been all my life, and it is a part of my ego that I am acknowledging now in HOPE to change it.
Its like this, the harder and harder we push our beliefs, the harder and harder people push back. Being humble is not pushing your beliefs in the first place. and it is the real key to finding your beliefs.

Weedman, I thought I was done with you. Your little victory dance of a post wasn't enough for you? Yet I will admit, I find solace in the fact that you came back and responded. That something human enough inside of you, is left to drive you back here to further fight for you point. At least you have a point worth fighting for. At least you haven't completely given up on your terrible, horrible, ego. At least something is still there enough to send you back here for more. Although I do not see your words as victorious by any means... to you, they are a victory. And that means I have done a beautiful thing.

Jackketch... I would love to hear your comments. Whenever you get a chance, and I know that might not be for a while, please do try to find the time to post. Whether you respond to the original thread or take points from my argument with weedman, I would very much like to hear the input of somebody on your side of the spectrum. At least somebody with intelligence on your side of the spectrum.

Now, back to you weedman. Although you completely bypassed some of the main points of my argument with you, and chose only what you were capable of reply to... I guess it won't hurt any to explain why you are still off base. And I do hate to include this in here... because I know it's rather ad hominem, and doesn't technically take away from your argument at all... but a spell check wouldn't kill you. Defencive? I know this is irrelevant... but it's just a sign of common courtesy.

Also, many times you say I deny or ignore negativity. I don't deny or say that we should ignore negative thoughts, I said we should look at them, ACKNOWLEDGE them, and then try to get past them. I never once twisted your words but you have twisted mine too many to count.

"and then try to get past them." Explain what you mean by that. That to me sounds an awful lot like ignoring. By failing to respond to a negative stimulus, nothing gets fixed. Even if you acknowledge this negative stimulus, it is the reaction that fixes it. Where along the lines does your reaction come in, rather than trying to make it just go away?


You must be really unsure of your beliefs because if you were sure in them, then you wouldn't ever get defencive.


Is this a fact? No. This is beyond wishful thinking, and flat out untrue. You can't just bend reality to make it work in your argument. Jesus, you say you've been "an argumentative person" all your life... but you're not very good at it. This is an erroneous claim... just like your example of scientists "proving" negative thinking makes you weak (which you have yet to cite and provide sources for).


I do admit, I also get defensive of my beliefs, but atleast my beliefs give Me the POWER of my life by having positive energy generating thoughts.


Hang on there buddy, look at the quote directly above! It doesn't matter what the byproduct of your beliefs are... you can't sit there and say being defensive makes you insecure one second, and then ONE sentence later say that you are being defensive, but it's okay because of some "positive energy" bullshit. You claimed people get defensive because they are insecure. Although this is not true (although I should say "not right", seeing as how there is in fact a deeper psychological truth to it, that no, won't help your argument), you can't claim something and then admit being guilty of the same exact thing but state you are magically exempt from it. This is a contradiction. Your argument is falling apart internally, and the fallacies are becoming heavy and thick.


I don't need religioin, all I need is the logic of my mind.


That's a very frightening thought.... seeing as how your logic is horribly skewed with what "sounds nice", such as "positive energy!" and "the power of choice!". The truth is there is no logic left here... it is merely a sensually agreeable logic. It is a comfortable and warm and fuzzy logic... that is by no means, logique réelle.


Thinking positively can never do you any real harm. You still watch for risks, buut yoou stay positive and dont' WORRY. Everyone always worrys and regrets but it is pointless and drains all of our energy. Regretting keeps you in the past, while worrying keeps you scared of the future. Negative thoughts makes us powerless, weak, and very scared. Life isn't fun scared.


"Thinking positively can never do you any real harm." Although this is true to some extent, it CAN do nothing at all. If something bad happens to me... it makes me feel better to think positively... but it will actually make me better if I think both realistically and constructively. Instead of positively acknowledging and getting past" (right? because you never said ignore?) the issue... I would much rather realistically acknowledge the issue, if it sucks say it sucks, and then constructively find a way to fix it. If you never say it sucks... you have no negative stimulus which to react to. This is why I say, despite your opposite claims, that you have a problem with acknowledgment.

Do realize there is a big difference between thinking positively, and living your life pretending all incoming forces are in fact positive. Like I said, rather than putting on your "positivity goggles"... actually look at the world the way it exists. Then respond.

People who are Strong in their beliefs never become defensive.
Why would you be defensive of something if theres nothing that could bother it?

Back to this, honestly? You accuse, admit guilt, and then accuse a second time? This is the height of hypocrisy. What a joke.


Humans are scared of losing their Belief Systems. And thats the way beliefs work.
You believe in something because it helps you make the "right" choices in life. Humans are ingrained to keep their belief system if it works.
But sometimes our beliefs don't always work in the long run.
Thats when we come to a realizaiton and change our beliefs slightly as we need to. It's called getting Wiser. You have such a closed mind that it will be hard for you to ever become wiser unless of course you open your mind and live life positive.
You my unaware friend are much more immature than you think. ITs been good talking to you because I see myself in you and its a test for me to not think negatively. Hahah have a good life.


I am not scared of losing my belief system... because my belief system rings in accordance to the truth of the world. It was developed on nothing other than truth. It was developed by looking at the world. Then looking at it again. Then looking at it again. The difference between my "beliefs", better called observations, and your beliefs, is that I don't have to try to convince myself of anything. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Rather than having to try to convince myself of something, I have to try to keep myself from being convinced by the unhealthy and media core morality and system of values that's taken root in this modern era.

And no... I do not believe in something because it helps me make the right choices. This is where your beliefs, Christianity's beliefs, and others differ from my own. I look at the truth of a situation. The realism of a situation. I make decisions based off of the actual situation. Do not confuse truth for altruism. Although your world view is altruistic, that does not make it true. I say to hell with altruism. I want to see the real world, as it truly exists. This does not mean I cannot help people or make "right" decisions... it just means I'm doing so separate from my belief structure.



The more we ACKNOWELDGE the LESS we ignore. That's WHY I acknowledge. Think about it. I dont reduce it to some words, I acknowledge, accept it for what it is, then starting trying to change it the best I can. You say I ignore, but never in any of my words did I Ever say that. You are absolutely BLIND as a BAT.


You're not getting it. This is a two step equation. When my hand is on a burning stove... I acknowledge the pain. But I don't accept it for what it is, that would be stupid! I say, "holy shit, this hurts a lot" and then I move my hand. Once again, if you acknowledge the stimulus but cannot calculate it as a negative one... if you calculate it as neutral or simply "as it is"... how can change ever occur? How can it ever be fixed? Please explain this, without losing track of the words quoted above. Don't forget you said these things already, when submitting your response.


I never say that life is not in my control. I say the exact opposite. I believe that everything that happens in my life is a result of the choices I have made.


Good! Now you're learning!


I refuse to make myself a victim to outside circumstances. Because it takes away your POWER.


Name something you cannot control? Explain how simply saying "I can't control this" takes away from power? Hell, explain power. I think your concept of it could be very well off base.


You my friend are a victim everyday to the things that happen in your life that you cant control. IF we make ourselves victims we take away our power to be happy in life.


You are absolutely right. I am victim to the things that happen to me in my life. And as much as it might break your perky little smile, the same goes for you. If something uncontrollable happens to you, you are victim of it. That's not arguable... that's just the definition of "victim". It shouldn't have taken five pages to establish this.

Lets say I get robbed, stabbed, and forever changed by the incident, I could be scared or worried that it would happen again and never go out when its late, but that would just make my life shitty.


This is where you fail to realize your faults.

If I personally were to get robbed and stabbed, once again I would say "this sucks" and "why did it happen". Rather than just "get over it", "accept it as it is" and "think positive!"... I would actually look into things.

If it happened at night in the middle of a crowded street by a madman (which is so unlikely to happen, that you should see the alternative), its fair to assume it won't happen again, and I'll be fine to go out at night again, in the middle of a crowded street. However if it happened because it was late at night, and I was strolling through back alleys in the Bronx... rather than accept this as it is, in order to grow I must realize my faults in the situation. Rather than just accept it as it is and reflect with a positive attitude, I'm going to learn from it and not walk down back alleys in the Bronx again.

If I'm into this kind of thing, then you're right, my life will be less interesting. However I assume it would be even shittier to get robbed and stabbed a second time.


Or lets say I was abused as a child by a family member, I could live my life negatively and have a absoultely horrible life if I CHOOSE to. Its all a CHOICE. My way of thinking doesnt not make me lazy, uncaring, or helpless. It does the exact opposite.


This situation is not only completely oversimplified, it is also irrelevant. A child is too young and inexperienced in the world to have know the limits of any authority, including his parents. However if we use a different example... again... if I'm a miserable husband whose wife cheats on me, physically and verbally abuses me, abuses herself, hurts our children, etc... then rather than making the "choice" to accept her actions as they are, "acknowledge and get past" her abusive actions... my ego, which is being trampled on, is going to stand up and put her in her place, whether that means divorce, taking the kids, putting her in jail... whatever it takes. Basically, I'm going to fix it. Basically, like when I got robbed and stabbed, I'm not going to let it happen again.

Your way of thinking is to numb these things out. Once again, these are the negative stimuli that hit us deep and have naturally developed to have us desire change. Why would you want to do away with these in life?


Its not in gods hands, its in my hands all the time because I accept life for what it is.
IN no way does my philosophy preach zero self accountability. MY "philosophy" makes me not be a victim to things that aren't in my control. People who make themselves the victim, have no power, and live unhappy.


No it isn't. Yes it does. Yes it does. No they don't.


Because life isn't fun if your always just a victim to circumstances you cant control.


Well if life is one giant carnival, than your philosophy doesn't skip a beat. Unfortunately, life isn't a carnival. Life is complex. A higher complexity than your philosophy suggests. Maybe this is why your vision is so horribly skewed... you're here to have fun. On the other hand.... I, personally, would like to amount to something.

And once again, Yes. You are. Because that's what the word victim means.


There are some things you state about my beliefs, that I did not say or mean.


That was brutally honest of you.


You just see what you want to see. I just have a hard time reading your words and not trying atleast a little bit to make you think more.


No, I see things as they truly are. It has nothing to do with what I "want to see". Hell, I would love to see things the way you do! It seems like a nice warm and fuzzy world. But with that said, so does the Christian promised heaven in the life external. So does ANY afterlife. I would love to believe in a heaven. I would love to see things as blatantly simple and warm and fuzzy as you do.

But I can't pretend that hard.


Always question your beliefs, and stand back and take a real look at your thoughts.
[/quote

All I can really say to this, is to listen to your own advice. I do question these beliefs. It was asking questions and making observations that built them. Every time you make a statement, I question them. Every time the Mormons knock on my door and teach me about "the good news", I question my beliefs and I question theres. When something new comes along that actually rings in accordance to the real world... I will incorporate this into my beliefs.

This is another problem with your philosophy. It has no accordance to the real world. It is nothing more than a belief system, that sounds "nice" and "friendly" and "positive" to talk about. It's barely a philosophy at all... because it corresponds to such little truth in this world.

[quote]
90% of our thoughts are said to be subconscious while the other 10% are actually consious. People everywhere are so unaware. Me and you.


Okay. What the fuck does this have to do with anything? Seriously? Are you stoned?

You realize remembering to breathe, heartbeat, storing data, etc. is all included in those percentages right? Not that this matters... because that sentene is the one that wouldn't belong if I were taking the SATs again.

One of my biggest beefs with Christian morality, comes with the "blessed are the meek" idea. To me this promotes laziness and weakness... that although might not hold me back personally, have held humanity/society back from reaching it's capable potential.


To YOU this promotes laziness. Being humble, or meek in no way promotes laziness. You having lazy mindsets, promotes you into thinking being humble is lazy. You see yourself as lazy and weak deep down and thats why you focus on it all the time. You say it makes society lazy but really you are just lazy. What we see in ourselves, we think and talk about more often.


Seriously? Sigh. Provide your sources for this. Your bending reality again. Wishful thinking, for the sake of your argument.

This is the saddest attempt at debate, the saddest and most foul logical fallacy I've ever witnessed... and since this paragraph made me completely lose all respect for you (what little I could manage to find)... know that the only reason I'm going to further my replies to your comments are for others on totse to see where I'm coming from, and to share my knowledge with other members who come into this thread actually trying to gain something. This has nothing to do with you anymore. I can't believe you tried to honestly tell me that. Grow the fuck up.


You can deny deny deny but deep down you always look at things negatively.


Not negatively. Realistically.


I can look at meekness or being humble, and it makes me feel energized. I feel the Power and desire to do what I want in life. Its all about your mindset. No matter what anyones belief is. Religious people are egotistical in how they push their beliefs,

No... religious people (for this argument, Christians) are not egotistical, and this is a problem I have with them. They have sold their ego off for cheap comfort. They have given up their egos completely in order to live a mediocre life. They've adopted a morality that doesn't belong to them. A philosophy that doesn't belong to them. "Herd instinct in the individual". To the Christina, ego is immoral.


but you my friend do the exact same. And then you say that you like your ego. How can you say that your ego is good, and others is not?
You think your shit don't stink? HAH. You contradict yourself many times.


I do like my ego. I think my ego is good, and I think others is good too. Good for them. I'm glad to see they seek something. That something inside them causes them to strive for something. When you came back into this thread to try to "prove your point" I was happy, because for a split second you showed off your ego. Like stated above, the problem I have with Christians is that they lack ego. They've lost their ego. They see it as something immoral. Ego is something that defines us, makes us stand out. To ignore the ego, is to deny everything human within one's self.

Yes. My- shit- don't- stink. Wow.

Okay kazza. You always assume far too much about what I say. You constantly twist my words and take way too much meaning into them. You over analyse life. Honestly. There is nothing wrong with my views and nothing Wrong with yours. Both are just our views. THe thing is GENOCIDE, WAR, and VIOLENCE come from ego. You cannot deny this without lying to yourself. Plain and simple.
Hitler believed that certain people were better than others, just like you do many times in yours posts. You just do it on a smaller, more "justified" scale. It is no different in essence. Egotistical thinking isn't something to strive for. If you strive for that, have fun always trying to protect your ego.
Also, you don't even KNOW what EGO means. You have a completely backward view of it. Every human has ego no matter what, we can't get rid of it, we can only ACKNOWLEDGE it and then NOT let it CONTROL US. True happiness comes from getting past EGO. Maybe someday you will see the truth in that.
Oh, what I meant by "get past" negative thoughts was that I would realize they are there, don't get caught up by them and CHOOSE to look at it positively instead. You keep looking for something to disagree with me on when really you are just making up things that I didn't even specifically say. I never EVER said IGNORE negative thoughts, I said CHANGE them into POSITVE ones. I don't use negative wording such as deny, ignore, forget, because I decide to see things more positive than that. THe way you interpret my words is a mirror reflection of what you CHOOSE to see. I never said you HAD to believe anything I said. I just said what I thought was true to me. But I used to think like you, then I realized. How ignorant, selfish, egotistical, and negative it was. I stopped lying, judging and blaming my life away.
Blaming takes away our true power because we never take responsibility for our actions. Thats why we make an effort to not blame soo much.
Judging takes away our power because we then judge ourselves which then leads to blaming.
Judge and blame go hand in hand. You can't have one without the other. Our entire society is based on judge and blame, and thats why you see so much in it. But too often we judge and blame when it doesn't help us.
That's what i'm talking about. Of course sometimes we have to judge and blame to make decisions, but we make EMOTIONAL, ILLOGICAL, and often foolish decisions.
Its pretty crazy how much some people make themselves victims to their life, like you. I see it in your words all the time. But you don't want to see it. Either way I think i've said enough, I could care less if I "WON" this argument. All i'm doing is sharing my beliefs hoping that "hey maybe someone will see some truth in my words and it will help them". But I honestly had a good time thinking about this egotistical mindset so many people are stuck in. Thank you for your words they have helped me become a more calm, open minded person.

http://thinkexist.com/quotes/with/keyword/ego/

http://quotes.zaadz.com/topics/ego

Those are JUST two sites with many intelligent, logical, meaningful and positive thoughts about ego.
I love to just sit there and read inspirational quotes. It's a good way to keep positive and also instill positive thoughts into your mindset.
To obtain pure bliss, pure enlightenment, pure happiness, you must not let ego control you. That is the exact mindset of buddhists, toaists, and many monks who live life happy even though it is very simple. You don't have to be buddhist, toaist or a monk in order to live like this either. Everyone can control their ego. It's all a matter of willpower.

I've decided to say one last final statement because it is the most important one of all. I often let my Ego control me and that's why I judge you on your Ego. But I am no better or worse than you or anyone else. We ARE all equal.

You both provide great arguments and this thread is highly informative; thanks for making this a rational, serious forum. I'll be sure to read the rest and comment when I have the time.

That is all.

You love to sit around and read inspirational quotes? How old are you? You're such a fucking flake it's unbelievable.

The problem with you weedman, other than the fact that you're a confused and unsure youth, confused because you are unlearned and unsure because your contradictions prove you don't even know what you're babbling about, is that you are an idealist.

Idealism. This is the disease that has plagued humanity for nearly three millennia. It first took root by word of Plato, and thus marked the decline of the human spirit. It preceded Christianity, it set the stage for Christianity... and Christianity itself is none other, than the most life denying idealism. Christianity started with Plato.

(PS. Before somebody throws the Socrates technicality at me, you're right... but since 98% percent of what we know of Socrates comes from Plato's dialogs... It is impossible to separate his true ideas from Plato's interpretation of them.)

It was Plato who invented the most tragic mistake, in creating a "real" world... a higher world... a higher reality. Assuming what we see, what we feel as some "apparent" world. This separation from life, was humanity's first tragic loss. The theory of forms. The invention of knowledge a priori. With this invention of a higher reality, came a higher morality... a higher virtue. Absolutes.

When you hold something more valuable than truth, than life, than the real world... you consequently devalue the truth, life, and the real world. You can not uphold a philosophy that "sounds nice" just because it sounds nice. Regardless of aesthetics, it's reality and accordance to truth does change, or become more real.

You're so caught up on "positive power", that you lose grasp of reality in this world. You lose grasp of truth. Just like the Christian values living by God's "higher" word, you value the control of your human, instinctual, ego. You're denial of life and reality, your denial of instinct, is no different than that of the Christian. The difference is you reached this flawed philosophy on your own. You aren't innocent enough to be raised into it.

And here are JUST a couple sites "weedman"... that intelligent, logical, meaningful and positive (did you not just argue at length it was a negative force?) thoughts on ego. I don't sit around and read lame ass inspirational quotes in my spare time... but I do read, and I do study philosophy. With that said, hopefully your mind can comprehend more than a few thrown together epigrams.

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/egoism/

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_intro

http://philosophy.eserver.org/nietzsche-zarathustra.txt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Stirner

http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/buddhism_criticism.html

**^Particularly for you!^**

http://www.nonserviam.com/egoistarchive/

http://www.the-philosopher.co.uk/buddhism.htm

**^ another one just for you! ^**


Speaking of lame ass quotes... this is the first one I see when I click your link.

“Give up all bad qualities in you, banish the ego and develop the spirit of surrender. You will then experience Bliss.”

Does this not sum up what I have been saying? The spirit of surrender? You value that as a positive thing?

I've decided to say one last final statement because it is the most important one of all. I often let my Ego control me and that's why I judge you on your Ego. But I am no better or worse than you or anyone else. We ARE all equal.

The Christian in you shines forth, one last time.

We're not all equal... because I am better than you. :)

You both provide great arguments and this thread is highly informative; thanks for making this a rational, serious forum. I'll be sure to read the rest and comment when I have the time.

That is all.

Please do. I would love to hear another's input, seeing as how the majority of this thread has been made up of me and some stoned faux-buddhist. Jackketch has a few responses coming as well that will likely add to all of this intellectual chaos... but his computer bluescreens before he can ever post them.

Where as this thread was intended to discuss the justification of atheistic arrogance in a rational and serious way, one simple question (thanks Jack :D) has turned it into a discussion of morality, idealism, value and nihilism.

I guess that's not a bad thing, seeing as how apparently there is a lot to be said.

Do read through the arguments though, and when you find time to respond, like I said... all intellectual input is more than welcome here.

Take care.

I would love to hear another's input, seeing as how the majority of this thread has been made up of me and some stoned faux-buddhist.

The term is 'lay-man'.

I don't know where that term came from, but i picked it up when i stayed at a retreat one time.

Atheists get pushy when having other people's beliefs rammed down their throat, and for good reason.

I'm not saying God certainly doesn't exist (though that is what I believe)...but to an Atheist, for purposes of how they react...he doesn't.

Imagine if somebody constantly told you that grass was blue, when you were 100% KNEW it was green. You'd get pretty pissed off.

That's a reason for great annoyance anyway, but in that example...your talking about grass. Now, take that concept...and it make it so important that it would completely change your purpose and feelings about life.

It's a pretty big reason to get annoyed.

First off, to know whether a god does or does not exist, is in fact impossible. However I can say, that I have as much reason to believe in God as that teapot, pink unicorns, or the flying spaghetti monster. With that said I do not believe in God, and I proceed take the very small and minute hop of faith in saying that god doesn't exist... thus making me not agnostic, but an atheist.

I do agree with your central argument. However it is not the annoyance that gets me. Read the original post, and you will see that. If the annoyance was all I had to deal with... I would roll my eyes, shrug my shoulders, laugh a little bit, and then tolerate it. However it's much more than annoyance. Its laws, its morality, its control. My problem is not their feelings on life. If they love their heaven so much, let them all die and go to it. My problem is that their feelings on life, are expected to be my feelings on life as well. I'm supposed to deny life as much as they do.

These are my problems with the church. The fact that it invades my life every day I live. It expects something out of me... something I have no intention to live by.

Yes, i'm back again even though I said I was done haha. I just found this information which I got from a Personal Accountability workshop. It is a 5 day intensive, 1000$ seminar which forces you to ask yourself the questions and realize how you feel, act, think. After leaving this seminar my views on being accountable changed completely. Here it is for anyone who would like to read it.



Personal Accountably:

A framing device that provides the power of choice,
participation and co-creation of the experiences and results in our lives, real or imagined.


Spiritual Accountability:

I am a Spiritual Being having a human experience. My purpose
here is to experience myself, remember who I am and evolve at a
spiritual level. I co-create EVERYTHING based on this.
I choose my parents and I choose the time, place and method of my
death through every choice I make my entire life.
Practical Accountably
I co-create my results and experiences in life.
I focus on MY choices WITHOUT BLAME.
There is a lesson in everything and I choose to find it.

Emotional Response Accountability:

I cannot always control/influence the events in my life but I
ALWAYS have a choice about how I will feel about them.
I respond WITHOUT BLAME.





Self Righteous Victim:


I cannot always control/influence the events in my life but I
ALWAYS have choice about how I will feel about them
and how I will respond. I can do this and STILL blame others,
the world and circumstances for my life.

Self Blame Victim:


I made bad/stupid choices. My life is my fault.
There is something wrong with me. I am powerless
to influence my life, world and future.

External Blame Victim:


Someone, something external to me has done me wrong.
If this had not happened then my life would be better.
They did it to me and there is nothing I can do about it.
I am powerless to influence my life, world and future.


Victimization: Anything (real or imagined, internal or external) that removes or
distances power, choice and action from an individual.

This is what you're using to try to support your claims? The fact that you wasted $1000 on listening to some flake tell you that you're a unique snowflake and a special boy?

You're buying a philosophy? A weak one at that?

You make me want to vomit.

I actually got a free gift certificate to the course. And I don't need it to support my claims I just posted it because it gives me the power in my life. Why should it make you sick? Why do you choose to be sick over it?

I didn't buy the philosophy, I chose to use it in my life when I realized it spoke some truth.

You always try to change the world. You live a life of idealism, while you are also against idealism. It's pretty funny. And that wasn't an insult, its just what I think is funny. It's only an insult if you decide to feel it is one.
Also, I too live a life of idealism but the difference between me and you is that I acknowledge it and accept it for what it is. I accept it that im a hypocrite. But I choose to not hide from it so that after acknowledging it I can start to change it.

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS MY OPINION AND IN NO WAY DO YOU HAVE TO AGREE OR FOLLOW IT.