This applies to catholics too. Why do they deny the crusades, inquisitions, and wars headed by them even happened? When history PROVES it?

"God and jesus and the believers are strongly opposed to killing and slavery"

What? After millions have been beaten, tortured, slaughtered, and oppressed in the name of their god for centuries? After villages, cities and beautiful architecture have been toppled?

"Only liars need to silence their opponents, christians/catholics are right"

Hmm...Christianity and Catholicism has killed more people than any other congregation in the history of mankind...seems a bit hypocritical eh?

Discuss...my blood pressure is getting pretty high.

...ilikedots......

shh, its their dirty little secret, dont tell anyone.

When you believe in a wish granting genie that lives in the sky and worship his son under the guise of the SUN it is pretty easy to view shit the way you want to see it.

You say "what about the slaughter of millions"

They CANNOT justify it. They should open each service with a heartfelt apology to mankind every SUNday.

I wonder why they do not realize that the church is pretty much UNCHANGING. Especially in its core beliefs. THE SAME CHURCH THAT DID THAT SHIT IS THE SAME ONE THAT EXISTS TODAY. THE SAME ONE YOU PROBABLY WORSHIP.

I trust that wasn't aimed at me...as I also hope you realized I don't like xianity much.

More to the point why can't they just shut up when they don't know something or disagree? I mean the least they could do is slip in an intelligible contribution to the conversation. Or the very least say "I don't know", shut it, and listen.

That's the main problem I have with the believers. The closed-mindedness of them.

...ilikedots.....

I find it interesting you distinguish Catholics from Christians.

Think about it.

I find it interesting you distinguish Catholics from Christians.

Think about it.

Is that the only thing you find interesting in this thread? I agree though, many catholics want to believe what their religion says and nothing else. I cant say all of them are like this but a good majority of them press their beliefs on other people and rule out any other explanation. The thing i find interesting is I have sattellite television, and there must be atleast 5 or 6 channels devoted specifically to christianity, 24 hours a day. Why aren't there other religions on tv?

Is that the only thing you find interesting in this thread? I agree though, many catholics want to believe what their religion says and nothing else. I cant say all of them are like this but a good majority of them press their beliefs on other people and rule out any other explanation. The thing i find interesting is I have sattellite television, and there must be atleast 5 or 6 channels devoted specifically to christianity, 24 hours a day. Why aren't there other religions on tv?

Possibly because christianity is weckognised a the de facto western religion, and therefore has all the resources of the western world at it's command.

Strangely, i when i was younger i had thought that christianity did infact damn television for misleading children and impressionable folks away from the word of god.


You're right though - there should be representation, this stinks of social manipulation.

I find it interesting you distinguish Catholics from Christians.

Think about it.

I never can escape it can I?

Every time I either get the idiot who says "The Catholics did it not us Christians" or the other duches that just want to argue because they have nothing else to say.

...ilikedots.....

It's very ironic, I did a blog on my myspace on this.



Hello,

Did anybody watch that episode of Big Brother the other week? You know, the one where that "well educated" middle-class blonde girl offended many viewers in the simple phrase - "You're pushing it out you nigger" ? Well, I was watching.

After the main show, Big Brother's Big Mouth was aired, hosted by George Galloway. People were spurting their opinions about how wrong it is etcetera, while I failed to see the big deal, it is only a word after all, it's your choice whether to be offended or not.

Later on the show, a woman explained that there is a history behind the word "nigger", that it has been, and still is, used as an excuse for violence, and you'd have to be incredibley ignorant of where it came from to use it. The funny thing is, you could say the exact same thing about Christianity....

You'd have to be incredibley ignorant of the history of Christianity to support it - it was, and still is, used as an excuse for violence - with George Bush claiming God told him to invade Iraq and empires invading countries in the name of him (it actually tells you to do that in Deuteronomy). You'd also have to be ignorant to the fact that the church constantly edited The Bible and oppressed it's enemies (which included other Christian groups*) so that it could govern the state, or just justify their bigoted opinions. While many Christians overlook some of the more sickening verses:

*See: Gnosticism

If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.
Leviticus 20:9

If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.
Leviticus 20:13

In fact, there are only a few groups of people who's beliefs acurately reflect what The Bible really is - The Westboro Baptist Church being one of them (www.godhatesfags.com). This group has gotten alot of media attention in America, mainly due to their radical protests marches, which includes anti-American pickets at Iraqi soldier's funerals. Now don't get me wrong, I think these people are total cunts, but they believe literally everything in The Bible, without holding any punches - so if The Bible is all that is Christian, people like this must be the embodiment of pure Christianity.

I'd like to quote Marx now

"Religion is the opium of the masses"

But most people only have a little bit of opium, and don't completely fuck themselves on it - problem is banning it would be just as a bigotted as right-hand religion itself. Most people who claim to be Christian are what I call the "hypocritically Christian" - they don't follow The Bible properly. Then there's those who are true fundamentalists - who remind you have a logan's run/soilent green type of character. But it's still all impure, even if you water it down.

Inniiiiiit.

I highly doubt that Christians deny the Inquisition happened....

I highly doubt that Christians deny the Inquisition happened....

but do they deny why?

but do they deny why?

I've argued with many Christians over the years and I have yet to meet one that has done so....

Edit: nope... they just claim that it was in the past. I tend to agree with them.

I've argued with many Christians over the years and I have yet to meet one that has done so....

Edit: nope... they just claim that it was in the past. I tend to agree with them.

so their ok with the murder of millions of people who either had the choice of being forced to follow christianity, or die?

so their ok with the murder of millions of people who either had the choice of being forced to follow christianity, or die?

I doubt that their "OK" with it but seeing as it happened hundreds of years before they were born, there is nothing they can now do about it. It would be akin to complaining about Muslim atrocities in the past... the past is the past.

A constructive argument is one that debates the present.....

[QUOTE=BlackEagle67;8820274]This applies to catholics too. Why do they deny the crusades, inquisitions, and wars headed by them even happened? When history PROVES it?

QUOTE]


That's the first time I've heard that particular accusation before.

After they call themselves the true religion, lulz.

I testify that there's only One God to be worshipped and Muhammed was his last and final messanger.

And Monothiests call themselves the only true religions, lulz.

I testify that there there are many Gods to be worshiped and I Jove am the last and final messenger.

Now kneel before Zod!!!!

so their ok with the murder of millions of people who either had the choice of being forced to follow christianity, or die?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you saying "the murder of millions of people who either had the choice of being forced to follow christianity, or die" you actually meant "defending Jerusalem against the Muslims"?

It was still wrong and anyone using it to justify more violence is hardly Christian. If anything it should have been done in the name of defending an ally, not a religion that condemns it.

A constructive argument is one that debates the present.....
It does if you consider that studying the past we can determine what sort of beliefs will cause humans to repeat horrible acts in the name of God, feelings of superiority, etc. It's not as simple as "Christianity isn't having an Inquisition or Crusade now, so beliefs in a God that tell us to carry out unspeakable acts are okay". What happened in the past because of what the Bible tells Christians to do can happen again in the future.

It does if you consider that studying the past we can determine what sort of beliefs will cause humans to repeat horrible acts in the name of God, feelings of superiority, etc. It's not as simple as "Christianity isn't having an Inquisition or Crusade now, so beliefs in a God that tell us to carry out unspeakable acts are okay". What happened in the past because of what the Bible tells Christians to do can happen again in the future.

While what you write is to some extent true (not learning from the past tends to cause repeats), it is not constructive to blame someone in the present for something that happened in the past. Learning from the past is one thing and is constructive but bludgeoning someone with it is not.

it is not constructive to blame someone in the present for something that happened in the past.
No one is blaming anyone for what their ancestors or anyone else did long ago. But saying "it was just in the past" isn't very constructive either when it comes to looking at what atrocities a supposedly divine book instructs people to carry out.


Learning from the past is one thing and is constructive but bludgeoning someone with it is not.
Bludgeoning? Quite a flair for exaggeration you have there.

No one is blaming anyone for what their ancestors or anyone else did long ago.

I see it done constantly... whether it is anti-Jewish anti-Christian or anti-Muslim it is all the same to me.

But saying "it was just in the past" isn't very constructive either when it comes to looking at what atrocities a supposedly divine book instructs people to carry out.

I realize that, but you have to take into consideration that most Christians have to a great degree abrogated those sections of their scriptures that we find vile. We have yet to see a stoning for instance or a witch burning in modern times. One has to give them credit for some reform.

Bludgeoning? Quite a flair for exaggeration you have there.

Thank you... I try my best. :cool:

I see it done constantly... whether it is anti-Jewish anti-Christian or anti-Muslim it is all the same to me.
I think you're again doing the exaggerating you already admitted to. No one blames people that died hundreds or thousands of years ago and no one is doing it in this thread. What people have a problem with are the religions that continue to exist and cause many of the same or different problems such as hate, wars, genocide, racism, and the belief that God wants us to kill.



I realize that, but you have to take into consideration that most Christians have to a great degree abrogated those sections of their scriptures that we find vile. We have yet to see a stoning for instance or a witch burning in modern times. One has to give them credit for some reform.Yippee. Right now no one is stoning or burning witches. As I just posted, there are plenty of other horrors being acted out and who's to say witch burnings and stoning won't return? The verses have not been abrogated; they're still their waiting for the fundamentalists of the present and future to do God's bidding.



Thank you... I try my best. :cool:
You should try not to. Honest debate will give you a lot more credibility.

most Christians have to a great degree abrogated those sections of their scriptures that we find vile.
You believe your god ordered people to do vile things? You don't believe your god is all good?

I think you're again doing the exaggerating you already admitted to.

Actually I was being flippant...

No one blames people that died hundreds or thousands of years ago and no one is doing it in this thread. What people have a problem with are the religions that continue to exist and cause many of the same or different problems such as hate, wars, genocide, racism, and the belief that God wants us to kill.

I never said people were blaming those in the past (that would be the right thing to do). The people being blamed are the currently religious. And BTW "hate, wars, genocide, racism" are perpetuated by the non-religious as well... see Communism. It is human nature that does those things, religion or any other "ism" is simply used to justify that barbarity in human nature.

Yippee. Right now no one is stoning or burning witches. As I just posted, there are plenty of other horrors being acted out and who's to say witch burnings and stoning won't return? The verses have not been abrogated; they're still their waiting for the fundamentalists of the present and future to do God's bidding.

So now you can read the future? I guess we should persecute any person who might sometime in the future do some wrong? By your own example I guess we should attack and condemn all atheists... considering the fact that they had a great deal to do with Communism and Eugenics.



You should try not to. Honest debate will give you a lot more credibility.

LOL.... Ad hominem anyone....

You believe your god ordered people to do vile things? You don't believe your god is all good?

I am an Agnostic... try again.

The means are not justified when the end is an unjusifiable mind trip that no one can prove.

Actually I was being flippant...
You were being flippant when you said, "I see it done constantly... whether it is anti-Jewish anti-Christian or anti-Muslim it is all the same to me."? It didn't seem flippant to me.



The people being blamed are the currently religious.
And rightly so. They believe that an all knowing being whose words should be followed wrote the instructions in the Bible to set out to perform horrible acts.



And BTW "hate, wars, genocide, racism" are perpetuated by the non-religious as well
So that makes it okay to have an instruction manual and teach further generations it was sent down by an all good, all knowing god that should be feared?


It is human nature that does those things, religion or any other "ism" is simply used to justify that barbarity in human nature.
It's also human nature to have evolve and come to conclusions that we have no special rights to land by a god, that prayers don't work, and that the horrible acts in the Bible couldn't possibly be done by an all good god and he sooner people have their consciousness raised, the better.



So now you can read the future?
I don't have to be Nostradamus to realize that belief that the Bible is divine has and will lead to more horrible acts in the name of religion.


I guess we should persecute any person who might sometime in the future do some wrong?
Oh please.


By your own example I guess we should attack and condemn all atheists... considering the fact that they had a great deal to do with Communism and Eugenics.
As an agnostic, you should no better than that. Communism and Eugenics were not a result atheism. Neither was done in the name of atheism.




LOL.... Ad hominem anyone....
You made a charge of 'bludgeoning'. When I called you on exaggerating, instead of denying it, you said you try your best. Me responding to that by saying "You should try not to. Honest debate will give you a lot more credibility." is not an ad hominem attack.

It does if you consider that studying the past we can determine what sort of beliefs will cause humans to repeat horrible acts in the name of God, feelings of superiority, etc. It's not as simple as "Christianity isn't having an Inquisition or Crusade now, so beliefs in a God that tell us to carry out unspeakable acts are okay". What happened in the past because of what the Bible tells Christians to do can happen again in the future.

hmm.... I don't recall the part of the bible where it say "go out and kill those who don't agree with you", all of the past wars were more of struggles for power than anything else. When the catholic church controlled everything they ridded they're area of influence of any heresy because if they are saying that they are right and everyone else is wrong, then someone who says otherwise is really saying that they should not be in power. That's really what it boils down to. Compare it to what happened when the British were building their empire. They opressed the natives of the contries that they controlled so that they could remain in power, and anyone who went against them was quickly silenced. If you are in power and you want to remain there, the best way is to silence those who might undermine you. That is the real point behind the inquisition and the crusades.

You were being flippant when you said, "I see it done constantly... whether it is anti-Jewish anti-Christian or anti-Muslim it is all the same to me."? It didn't seem flippant to me.

No I was being 'flippant' when I responded to your "Quite a flair for exaggeration you have there" comment.


And rightly so. They believe that an all knowing being whose words should be followed wrote the instructions in the Bible to set out to perform horrible acts.

Well then make up your mind. Earlier you said, and I quote, "No one is blaming anyone for what their ancestors or anyone else did long ago." Which one is it are they being blamed or not?


So that makes it okay to have an instruction manual and teach further generations it was sent down by an all good, all knowing god that should be feared?

Yeah it does, people have a right to believe in any crazy crap they so desire... no matter how onerous it might be to you or I.


It's also human nature to have evolve and come to conclusions that we have no special rights to land by a god, that prayers don't work, and that the horrible acts in the Bible couldn't possibly be done by an all good god and he sooner people have their consciousness raised, the better.

Hey you're preaching to the choir... but people will believe what they want.

I don't have to be Nostradamus to realize that belief that the Bible is divine has and will lead to more horrible acts in the name of religion.

Yeah, you would pretty much have to be a psychic to know the future.


Oh please.

Hey, you brought that on yourself. I'm just taking the road you map out.

As an agnostic, you should no better than that. Communism and Eugenics were not a result atheism. Neither was done in the name of atheism.

I said many played a prominent role. By your logic we can't blame religion either if some of their members happen to act out in violent ways...


You made a charge of 'bludgeoning'. When I called you on exaggerating, instead of denying it, you said you try your best. Me responding to that by saying "You should try not to. Honest debate will give you a lot more credibility." is not an ad hominem attack.

Yes it is, as you were making the charge that I was being dishonest...

After they call themselves the true religion, lulz.

I testify that there's only One God to be worshipped and Muhammed was his last and final messanger.

*cough*

I testify that there's only one god and he doesn't really give a shit what you do as long as you worship something, and that everyone is his messenger.

:p

Well then make up your mind. Earlier you said, and I quote, "No one is blaming anyone for what their ancestors or anyone else did long ago." Which one is it are they being blamed or not?
You actually think atheists are blaming Christians of today for what Christians did long ago? No, we blame them for propagating a hateful religion with a hate filled book.




Yeah it does, people have a right to believe in any crazy crap they so desire... no matter how onerous it might be to you or I.
You said, "And BTW "hate, wars, genocide, racism" are perpetuated by the non-religious as well"

I replied, "So that makes it okay to have an instruction manual and teach further generations it was sent down by an all good, all knowing god that should be feared?"

You replied back, "Yeah it does, people have a right to believe in any crazy crap they so desire... no matter how onerous it might be to you or I."

How can you possibly think I was referring to Christians not having a legal right to believe what they want?

The fact that atheists have done some otf the things that the religious have done in the name of their religion is not a logical reason to think belief in the Bible, a manual of hate, will not be the reason more hatred and violent acts won't be acted out.

If there was an atheist manual that told others to kill homosexuals, etc. , I wouldn't think that would be 'okay' either.




Hey you're preaching to the choir... but people will believe what they want.
Not necessarily. When it comes to religion, people generally keep the religion their parents and others have brainwashed them into since birth. It's people like you and I who can help enlighten people and help others and their future generations drop their magical and hate filled beliefs.



Yeah, you would pretty much have to be a psychic to know the future.
Then when you read this post again in the future, you're going to be amazed by my psychicness:

Here in New Jersey, the average daily temperature will be much lower next Winter then it's been this Summer.

Hundreds if not thousands will die due to the ongoing occupation in Iraq.

The Bible and Christianity will continue to cause hate, intolerance, and the killing of others.



Hey, you brought that on yourself. I'm just taking the road you map out.
I brought that ridiculous comment on myself? Me bringing up that people are much more likely to kill and persecute in the name of God when they believe have a divine instruction manual telling them to do so is not in any way an endorsement of killing others. You're out of my mind if that's what you came up with.



I said many played a prominent role. By your logic we can't blame religion either if some of their members happen to act out in violent ways...
Depends why they're acting them out. If someone is killing homosexuals because he was abused by one, then no, we can't blame religion. If someone is killing homosexuals, bombing abortion clinics, etc., because of passages from the Bible, then yes, we can blame religion.



Yes it is, as you were making the charge that I was being dishonest...I said you were exaggerating with your charge of 'bludgeoning'. You then said that you try your best. Me commenting that you shouldn't and that honest debate will give you a lot more credibility is not an ad hominem attack.

Next up: quoting and analyzing individual words.

Hilarity and ridiculously long posts ensue.

Next up: quoting and analyzing individual words.

Hilarity and ridiculously long posts ensue.

Nah, I'm done :p....