This is a question I had for such a long time and I'd like to see what everyone thinks about it. So in the bible it says god created all the plants on earth, including the apple tree that eventually created the original sin from adam and eve eating the fruit. Now the thing that I want to know is why would god create something if its only purpose was to be forbidden?

I don't think it was actually an apple, it was the fruit of a tree that apparently not around anymore.

Either way, not that I believe in the story, but I've always wondered why human females are the only creatures on earth known to have such a regular menstrual cycle.

I don't think it was actually an apple, it was the fruit of a tree that apparently not around anymore.

Either way, not that I believe in the story, but I've always wondered why human females are the only creatures on earth known to have such a regular menstrual cycle.

Haha im not sure how that really relates to my question, or if it does at all, but even if it was some unknown fruit that no longer exist, its still the same basic question.

This is a question I had for such a long time and I'd like to see what everyone thinks about it. So in the bible it says god created all the plants on earth, including the apple tree that eventually created the original sin from adam and eve eating the fruit. Now the thing that I want to know is why would god create something if its only purpose was to be forbidden?

Christianity/Judaism are two VERY fucked up religions. You'll get Christians here that will say "Adam & Eve had free will; it was their choice, etc.", but in the end, it's highly illogical and immoral for a god to do such a cruel thing.

The answer? Christianity and Judaism are false.

Christianity/Judaism are two VERY fucked up religions. You'll get Christians here that will say "Adam & Eve had free will; it was their choice, etc.", but in the end, it's highly illogical and immoral for a god to do such a cruel thing.

The answer? Christianity and Judaism are false.

Well i deff agree there i mean its proven that there was no adam and eve and that we evolved, im just curious how they would answer that

Well i deff agree there i mean its proven that there was no adam and eve and that we evolved, im just curious how they would answer that

Rolloffle should be here any second now. But most of the arguments are based on free will; my question is why would God punish us for sins our forefathers commited?

Rolloffle should be here any second now. But most of the arguments are based on free will; my question is why would God punish us for sins our forefathers commited?

I can understand that adam and eve had the choice to eat it or not but it was the serpent who first talked them into it. Again, wouldnt god have known the serpent would talk adam and eve into it. It just seems like god set mankind up to fail, but im more interested in why god created the fruit in the first place.

Like nshanin stated... the reason this paradox is even comprehensible is because it takes place solely in a fictional account. It never really happened. (Although it scares me you say that evolution has been proven.)

Original sin is something that has most definitely been ingrained on the human psyche and human psychological health over the past two thousand years. It's something we've been taught to accept in ourselves... it is something the Christians (consciously or not) invented in order to breed Christianity. To keep people in such unhealthy self denial that they cannot exist without "God's grace". This is another one of my major problems with Christianity.

A long quote that I think applies, the conclusion to Friedrich Nietzsche's "Antichrist":


--With this I come to a conclusion and pronounce my judgment. I condemn Christianity; I bring against the Christian church the most terrible of all the accusations that an accuser has ever had in his mouth. It is, to me, the greatest of all imaginable corruptions; it seeks to work the ultimate corruption, the worst possible corruption. The Christian church has left nothing untouched by its depravity; it has turned every value into worthlessness, and every truth into a lie, and every integrity into baseness of soul. Let any one dare to speak to me of its "humanitarian" blessings! Its deepest necessities range it against any effort to abolish distress; it lives by distress; it creates distress to make itself immortal. . . . For example, the worm of sin: it was the church that first enriched mankind with this misery!--The "equality of souls before God"--this fraud, this pretext for the rancunes of all the base-minded--this explosive concept, ending in revolution, the modern idea, and the notion of overthrowing the whole social order--this is Christian dynamite. . . . The "humanitarian" blessings of Christianity forsooth! To breed out of humanitas a self-contradiction, an art of self-pollution, a will to lie at any price, an aversion and contempt for all good and honest instincts! All this, to me, is the "humanitarianism" of Christianity!--Parasitism as the only practice of the church; with its anaemic and "holy" ideals, sucking all the blood, all the love, all the hope out of life; the beyond as the will to deny all reality; the cross as the distinguishing mark of the most subterranean conspiracy ever heard of,--against health, beauty, well-being, intellect, kindness of soul--against life itself. . . .

This eternal accusation against Christianity I shall write upon all walls, wherever walls are to be found--I have letters that even the blind will be able to see. . . . I call Christianity the one great curse, the one great intrinsic depravity, the one great instinct of revenge, for which no means are venomous enough, or secret, subterranean and small enough,--I call it the one immortal blemish upon the human race. . . .

And mankind reckons time from the dies nefastus when this fatality befell--from the first day of Christianity!--Why not rather from its last?--From today?--The transvaluation of all values! . . .

I think it applies.


EDIT: If you're interested in more regarding this kind of thing... you should check out my thread here in MGCBTSOOYG.

Haha im not sure how that really relates to my question, or if it does at all, but even if it was some unknown fruit that no longer exist, its still the same basic question.

Oh, uh...

yeah. I just don't believe that.

Why would God make crap like that? Why not?

All possibilities are contained within God.

(Although it scares me you say that evolution has been proven.)

Why is that?

Oh, uh...

yeah. I just don't believe that.

Why would God make crap like that? Why not?

All possibilities are contained within God.

Well no i deff agree that there is nothing that would be impossible and anything is surely possible when it comes to god. Im not really asking why it was created, but why its purpose was, if eaten, to create all sin.

Because I never have considered evolution to be something that has been proved. It is a theory; a theory with a lot of evidence, yes. And a theory that is more believable than the creation myths more than 50% of Americans believe in today... but it is not something that has been proved.

I believe in evolution. Even though all the facts aren't there, I take that "leap of faith" and put my faith in evolution... but don't forget that this is very different than having something proved and certain.

Because I never have considered evolution to be something that has been proved. It is a theory; a theory with a lot of evidence, yes. And a theory that is more believable than the creation myths more than 50% of Americans believe in today... but it is not something that has been proved.

I believe in evolution. Even though all the facts aren't there, I take that "leap of faith" and put my faith in evolution... but don't forget that this is very different than having something proved and certain.

You don't believe in genetic change over time? Perhaps you're referring to abiogenesis?

This is a question I had for such a long time and I'd like to see what everyone thinks about it. So in the bible it says god created all the plants on earth, including the apple tree that eventually created the original sin from adam and eve eating the fruit. Now the thing that I want to know is why would god create something if its only purpose was to be forbidden?

The original sin was not really the eating of the Apple Of Discord but of Eve thinking she knew better than god/her husband. Adam's sin was listening to his wife.

Bible is quite clear on this, the fruit was just the stumbling block.

Also you have to remember that the Story is infact 2 seperate accounts blended together.

It was never supposed to make sense.

You don't believe in genetic change over time? Perhaps you're referring to abiogenesis?

Well... yes. I guess technically I am. I stand corrected.

Evolution in terms of genetic change over time DOES have enough proof.... But the notion that all organisms evolved from the same single cell organism is something that I choose to put my faith into. It's something I believe in... but something that still has a lot of chunks missing out.

If we were to classify these incomplete theories as truths, without the room and attitude to learn more, we would be no better than "the cross".

The original sin was not really the eating of the Apple Of Discord but of Eve thinking she knew better than god/her husband. Adam's sin was listening to his wife.

Bible is quite clear on this, the fruit was just the stumbling block.

Also you have to remember that the Story is infact 2 seperate accounts blended together.

It was never supposed to make sense.

So it comes down to a man listening to his wife? Thats the sin?

The original sin was not really the eating of the Apple Of Discord but of Eve thinking she knew better than god/her husband. Adam's sin was listening to his wife.

Bible is quite clear on this, the fruit was just the stumbling block.

Also you have to remember that the Story is infact 2 seperate accounts blended together.

It was never supposed to make sense.

Let it be known that husbands should no longer listen to their wives; to do so would be utter blasphemy against God!

...to create all sin.

Creation?

'Sin', whatever the person thinks it means, is part of all, part of God. Why wouldn't it be here?

So it comes down to a man listening to his wife? Thats the sin?

Yep, instead of listening to god.

Says so quite clearly.

Yep, instead of listening to god.

Says so quite clearly.

So god says dont eat this for some unknown reason and eve decides to because the serpant (I belive this is how it goes, please correct me if im wrong) talks eve into it, and she in turn talks her husband adam into it.

So god says dont eat this for some unknown reason and eve decides to because the serpant (I belive this is how it goes, please correct me if im wrong) talks eve into it, and she in turn talks her husband adam into it.

Yeah... we were pretty set up to fall there weren't we?

Yeah... we were pretty set up to fall there weren't we?

Haha yea thats the thing i dont understand I mean were punished, we sin, because of what god set up for us in the first place.

Now the thing that I want to know is why would god create something if its only purpose was to be forbidden?

Why would a religion tell generation after generation of parents a story, that would virtually ensure their children were made slave to that religion from birth? Because it's one of the best marketing tools ever devised, that's why.

Why would a religion tell generation after generation of parents a story, that would virtually ensure their children were made slave to that religion from birth? Because it's one of the best marketing tools ever devised, that's why.

Well of course thats what it would seem but i want to know what the christain answer is.

So, when Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden, if you go for all these fairy tales, that "evil" woman convinced the man to eat the apple, but the apple came from the Tree of Knowledge. And the punishment that was then handed down, the woman gets to bleed and the guy's got to go to work, is the result of a man desiring, because his woman suggested that it would be a good idea, that he get all the knowledge that was supposedly the property and domain of God. So, that right away sets up Christianity as an anti-intellectual religion. You never want to be that smart. If you're a woman, it's going to be running down your leg, and if you're a guy, you're going to be in the salt mines for the rest of your life. So, just be a dumb fuck and you'll all go to heaven. That's the subtext of Christianity.


Thought that was somewhat relevant.

Like jakketch said, it is a mishmash of two different accounts; it’s not supposed to make sense.

Thought that was somewhat relevant.

Like jakketch said, it is a mishmash of two different accounts; it’s not supposed to make sense.

lol so its all based off of atleast two different stories put together that doesnt make sense anyway

Well of course thats what it would seem but i want to know what the christain answer is.

The Christian answer is to obfuscate. Attempting to logically explain the religiously absurd is painfully counterproductive.

Could sumone give me a link or some information about the different stories that make up adam and eve?

Could sumone give me a link or some information about the different stories that make up adam and eve?

Genesis 2 v.4 is where the second account starts. I would reply in depth but my laptop keeps dying.

The original sin was not really the eating of the Apple Of Discord but of Eve thinking she knew better than god/her husband. Adam's sin was listening to his wife.

Bible is quite clear on this, the fruit was just the stumbling block.

Also you have to remember that the Story is infact 2 seperate accounts blended together.

It was never supposed to make sense.

I prefer to think of it as an example of one listening and following advice of their peers.

Also, I think it's a good example of how the things we do can impact the lives of others.

I don't think Eve thought she knew better than god/husband, but that she thought the serpent knew better. (or at least had insider information, anyway) So, she followed him, did she not?

Maybe she was enamoured by him...charmed, I'm sure.

They were like children with a father who told them what not to do, but did not tell them how it could impact their lives. They had nothing to base their decision on, no experience. But they did gain experience and knowledge as they did so. Knowledge of God, of self, of the dangers of deception in others, etc.

Isn't that what life is like for most people?

Could sumone give me a link or some information about the different stories that make up adam and eve?

Just read the first bit of Genesis and pay attention to the details, it's not hard to spot where one story ends and the other takes over. Go ahead and check this (http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/accounts.html) out if you have trouble differentiating by yourself.

Christianity/Judaism are two VERY fucked up religions.

THats all anyone ever needed to say.

The bible was written to appeal to people with very little in the way of education. Let me rephrase that. NO EDUCATION WHATSOEVER. These are the masses of the time the bible was written.

When we examine this book today we do so with the ability to

A: read it for ourselves
and
B: read other things that explain the real world

This combination leads most people to the argument, and others like it, of the OP.

To entertain the argument and in the spirit of the thread...We have some info about God which will really confound the whole of the argument.

Eden:
God set the stage for failure. But it was man's free will to fail or obey. Man failed.

God is omnipotent.

This changes things doesn't it? He knew on day zero of genesis that man would fail...and pay for it by becoming mortal. So why even set the stage for failure. Why create man any way? God knows everyone who is going to heaven and who to hell at everytime past, present and future. If he did not he would cease to be omnipotent.

The story itself establishes Man being born into sin. Into the debt of sin. This means your a piece of shit and gonna rot in hell no matter what you do. Scary huh? But wait there is something you can do, says the shepard to the flock.

That is the story of Eden. Passing guilt to you before you were even born in an effort to gain social and economic control over your life. It is no longer even a good scam and the book is not a good piece of fiction anymore. Fade into myth God.

The bible was written to appeal to people with very little in the way of education. Let me rephrase that. NO EDUCATION WHATSOEVER. These are the masses of the time the bible was written.

A very common misconception.

Actually the opposite is almost certainly true. Traditionally the jews have had a literacy rate unheared of for other nations.

By the time the OT entered its present form almost every jew was educated and literate.

Remember being able to read aloud has been a integral part of the jewish faith certainly from before the time of Jesus (And the rise of the synagogues).

God gave them the choice.

Even though He knew what they would choose, he still ultimately left it up to them. Choose to follow His rules, or choose to not. Without the choice of going against God, we would be mindless drones, without the ability to even think of doing something He doesn't want us to do.

But I don't think it was a real fruit, even. It might have been shrooms, or a metaphor for something else.

I've been wondering what exactly the Original Sin was for a few months.

God gave them the choice.

Even though He knew what they would choose, he still ultimately left it up to them. Choose to follow His rules, or choose to not. Without the choice of going against God, we would be mindless drones, without the ability to even think of doing something He doesn't want us to do.

But I don't think it was a real fruit, even. It might have been shrooms, or a metaphor for something else.

I've been wondering what exactly the Original Sin was for a few months.

But see what i dont understand is in terms of good and evil in the bible, adam and eve did not know good and evil before they ate whatever they ate, however the serpant knew something about good and evil or something because why would he want to talk adam and eve into. If you take that approach too it the problem lies with ther serpant than, why would god create the serpant to talk adam and eve into eating eat. How can you trust god, but none of his creations?

But see what i dont understand is in terms of good and evil in the bible, adam and eve did not know good and evil before they ate whatever they ate, however the serpant knew something about good and evil or something because why would he want to talk adam and eve into. If you take that approach too it the problem lies with ther serpant than, why would god create the serpant to talk adam and eve into eating eat. How can you trust god, but none of his creations?

*shrugs*

I really don't know, man.
The Bible's been changed so much, maybe there was a proclamation of God's authority over Adam long ago, or something else that would help people solve this issue easier.

All I know is
He's God.
He made everything. Then us.
He gave us (dominion?) over everything.
He said "don't do this ONE thing"
The snake said "do this one thing"
They did that one thing.
And now we die.

*shrugs*

I really don't know, man.
The Bible's been changed so much, maybe there was a proclamation of God's authority over Adam long ago, or something else that would help people solve this issue easier.

All I know is
He's God.
He made everything. Then us.
He gave us (dominion?) over everything.
He said "don't do this ONE thing"
The snake said "do this one thing"
They did that one thing.
And now we die.

Lol i dunno and why did god not want us to know good and evil? It seems to me that god didnt want to share his awesomeness with adam and eve, but literally just wanted to rule over them.

So...does anybody have a, er-ah, scientific explanation for why human females have such a frequent menstrual cycle when compared with all other animals?

So...does anybody have a, er-ah, scientific explanation for why human females have such a frequent menstrual cycle when compared with all other animals?

Are there any explanations that aren't scientific? I'm just curious.

Are there any explanations that aren't scientific? I'm just curious.

I dunno. I think most people would consider the explanation that God got angry and cursed eve unscientific.

So...does anybody have a, er-ah, scientific explanation for why human females have such a frequent menstrual cycle when compared with all other animals?

Humans and great apes undergo a menstrual cycle whilst most other mammals undergo estrus, thus your question is rendered impotent. Though if you can turn a blind eye to the specious comparison, many mammalian estrus cycles are in fact significantly shorter than the average 28 day human menstrual cycle.

I dunno. I think most people would consider the explanation that God got angry and cursed eve unscientific.

Well i was reading in the bible, adam and eve were pretty much punished with having kids. If you read Exodus 3:15-16

"And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shallbruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and they conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and they desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

EDIT: Not that im religious or believe in it, i just thought it was funny that it stated it like that

Humans and great apes undergo a menstrual cycle whilst most other mammals undergo estrus, thus your question is rendered impotent. Though if you can turn a blind eye to the specious comparison, many mammalian estrus cycles are in fact significantly shorter than the average 28 day human menstrual cycle.

Cool. Thanks Slave!

A very common misconception.

Actually the opposite is almost certainly true. Traditionally the jews have had a literacy rate unheared of for other nations.

By the time the OT entered its present form almost every jew was educated and literate.

Remember being able to read aloud has been a integral part of the jewish faith certainly from before the time of Jesus (And the rise of the synagogues).

If the only books you read are of faith then you lack a proper education.

I don't think there were apples, nor a tree, I think it's a metaphor for sex. Why that was such a big deal? I have no idea.

Hesitantly, Arthur picked up one of those things that looked like
pears.

''I always thought that about the Garden of Eden story,'' said
Ford.

''Eh?''

''Garden of Eden. Tree. Apple. That bit, remember?''

''Yes of course I do.''

''Your God person puts an apple tree in the middle of a garden and
says do what you like guys, oh, but don't eat the apple. Surprise
surprise, they eat it and he leaps out from behind a bush
shouting `Gotcha'. It wouldn't have made any difference if they
hadn't eaten it.''

''Why not?''

''Because if you're dealing with somebody who has the sort of
mentality which likes leaving hats on the pavement with bricks
under them you know perfectly well they won't give up. They'll
get you in the end.''

''What are you talking about?''

''Never mind, eat the fruit.''
I found this relevant. :p

I found this relevant. :p

lol what is that from?

A book from the series "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy". The second, I believe. It's by Douglas Adams. Good series. :)

I always thought the whole Garden thing was one of the most major problems with Christianity. Apparently, God let us choose to eat the fruit - i.e., deny Him - because if He stopped us, then we wouldn't have free will, and that is very important to Him. The holes in this are so numerous I don't have the energy to type them all out now, but I think a little thought will reveal at least a few. (How would we not have free will? Didn't he foresee that, and thus create us JUST to fail? Etc.)

A book from the series "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy". The second, I believe. It's by Douglas Adams. Good series. :)

I'm currently reading that; good read. A quote that I found humorous and relevant:

The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language. The speech patterns you actually hear decode the brainwave matrix which has been fed into your mind by the Babel fish.

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.

"The argument goes something like this: 'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'

"'But,' says Man, 'the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own argument, you don't. QED.'

"'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

"'Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next pedestrian crossing."

I like this quote because it goes to show the inefficacy of word arguments in the theological realm.
Not really related, but I thought it was interesting.