Many people have religious and spiritual experiences with certain quantities of magic mushrooms. Very interesting things can happen to change your view of things, and there is no doubt that magic mushrooms have metaphysical properties, or at the very least the experiences. Here you can describe your experiences, thoughts, and share input about it. I am also interested in hearing about any traditions that might involve magic mushrooms, religious or not. Basically have fun with this topic and discuss.

No, they don't 'clearly' have 'metaphysical properties', they have hallucinagenic properties. Big difference.

I've taken a wide variety of hallucinogens, and I am able to put what I've seen into words.

The human body was specifically designed to ingest certain plants and herbs, in order to dive into the inner psyche that we call "the self."

A universe of information is stored in your brain from the day you are born, and remains in there until the day you die. However, this information lays dormant in your mind, until you find the right keys to "unlock" the pieces of the puzzle.

Marijuana, Magic Mushrooms, LSD, DMT, Peyote, Mescaline, and many other chemical compounds are the "secret keys" to unlock all the information and knowledge you desire.

It's even written in the Christian Bible, and Many other religions, that these plants are not sinful, but were specifically designed by the Source Power. (what everyone else in the world calls God, Yahweh, Allah, The Supreme One, The giver of life)

The Source Power left clues scattered throughout mankind, and gave humans who are perceptive enough to think for themselves (independent free-thinking souls) the ability to solve these pieces of our human puzzle.

There are 3 parts to the human body - the Physical body, the Spiritual Body, and the Mind.

These herbs help you to open your eyes and see the world around you in ways that you never thought possible.

If you go looking for answers, you will find them.

A universe of information is stored in your brain from the day you are born, and remains in there until the day you die. However, this information lays dormant in your mind, until you find the right keys to "unlock" the pieces of the puzzle.

Marijuana, Magic Mushrooms, LSD, DMT, Peyote, Mescaline, and many other chemical compounds are the "secret keys" to unlock all the information and knowledge you desire.



I think that the information is not in your mind, but in the universe, and that "mind-expanding" chemicals and plants help you access that. You become able to see data stored outside of yourself.
When people's trips turn into those of self-discovery, that's an interaction of the two sources of information... the person and the universe, and a result of how the person deals with what they've learned.

No, they don't 'clearly' have 'metaphysical properties', they have hallucinagenic properties. Big difference.

The mushrooms themselves have hallucinagenic properties. I guess i cant really speak for any of you out there whether you've taken mushroom or not, but i know that i deff always have metaphysical experiences on mushrooms.

No, they don't 'clearly' have 'metaphysical properties', they have hallucinagenic properties. Big difference.

Well said. No drug can put something into your mind that wasn't there to begin with.

Well said. No drug can put something into your mind that wasn't there to begin with.

If you insert a key into a lock, the lock opens.

hallucinogens are just an English, Americanized word.

Those in power would rather human beings think of "drugs" as "hallucinogens" in order to scare the population into NOT indulging in these plants.

The correct terminology to use is "plants" and "keys to unlock the mind."

http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_spirit.shtml

I just ate a wee shroom. All alone, its probably gonna rain today. This will be an introspective trip, probably accompanied with hash.

I'll say if anything uniquely spiritual happens later.

So you ingest hallucinogenic chemicals, then decide that what you experience has some kind of "deeper, spiritual meaning."

Meanwhile, you are ingesting hallucinogenic chemicals.

...

Thanks for appearing on "Wheel of Reality", here is your consolation prize...

I tried mushrooms about 11 years ago. Awesome and powerful drug. Use sparingly.

That said...

In order for your body to actually being standing up and aware of the space it is in takes a good deal of brain response and power. It is all instinctual like breathing and such.

Basically there are certian parts of the brain that let you know where you are in relation to everything else. EVERYONE is seperate from everything else regardless of what other relationship you share with physical space. This is a constant in this particular area of the brain. It maintains you are seprate from anything that is not you. You realize that you are not part of the keyboard you are touching without even thinking about it.

If you were to damage this area (as brain science has determined) you would have your hand on your coffe table and not be able to figure out where you end and the table begins. Sounds fucked up doesnt it? It is true. Brain damage cases get stranger than this trust me.

Scientists found out that someone who meditates long enough taps into and overloads this area of the brain. They then experience a state of ONENESS with everything. That we are all one. Connected. This is do to momentarily shutting off the "YOU ARE SEPARATE" auto brain response.

Same basic thing with mushrooms. Not to say I dont think drugs expand your awareness or anything. They most certainly CAN. I just do not think by taking them you tap into some spiritual plane of existence.

Sorry I dont have the technical names for the areas of the brain I am talking about. I can look them up if you really want. Im just going from memory of what I read 8 months ago.

Well....this trip taught me that talking about such things is pointless. But what isn't?

Lately, I've been extremely depressed with my real life, while i try not to show that here. But I'm making it better, thats the only way its gonna get better, and thats something mushrooms helped show me tonight.

The cause of most of the depression has been over a girl I've spent the last year and a half with. I really love her, she's a great person. But our relationship keeps hitting the rocks. We were dating most of that time, and living together, but recently we've broken up and she went to live with her dad. Shes a very meaningful person to me, shes been there for me through a lot, and I'll never be able to thank her enough for the time we've had together and the things I've learned because of her.

But we can't be together right now, and we might never be able to be together again. Its not a happy subject....and Ive learned that dwelling on it isn't good either.

I need to be open for things that will help me grow, be all that I can be, as happy as I can be. Maybe one day she and me will share that kind of love again. Maybe not. Its hard to accept that, but nobody said it would be easy. Life flows on. And mushrooms helped me realize that this afternoon.

I rate mushrooms as a very high entheogen, lol.

So you ingest hallucinogenic chemicals, then decide that what you experience has some kind of "deeper, spiritual meaning."

Yes, that is the general idea of the act.

Yes, that is the general idea of the act.

Indeed, and i dont think you really have your experience and ask yourself "well did that mean anything to me?" I realize theres alot of people out there who are morons and would take mushrooms just to get uber fuxor up. Mushrooms are used for inner learning and are very powerful.

Mushrooms are used for inner learning and are very powerful.

This is what they should be used for...too bad drug prohibition and misinformation fuck it all up.

Now to go smoke some hash and enjoy the remaining visuals.

Well said. No drug can put something into your mind that wasn't there to begin with.

We already posses all the happiness and joy in existence.

We already posses all the happiness and joy in existence.

Of course, and mushrooms help you realize this, and unlock it.

The mushrooms themselves have hallucinagenic properties. I guess i cant really speak for any of you out there whether you've taken mushroom or not, but i know that i deff always have metaphysical experiences on mushrooms.

No, you didn't. You had a hallucinagenic experience. Do you even know what metaphysical means?

No, you didn't. You had a hallucinagenic experience. Do you even know what metaphysical means?

Hallucinations are specifically a sensory perception, an illusion, that can be visual, auditory, etc. Metaphysical has a large array of things involved with it but im looking at the general sense of the word "Beyond Physical". Im not sure if you personally have ever tripped on mushrooms, but think about this. Most people have a very hard time truly grasping the concept of "infinite", but i can speak from experience that mushrooms help you to really understand this concept.

Metaphysics can have a number of different points of view, and its quite funny how mushrooms can have that effect on the mind. Metaphysics not only involves all that is, on a macro level, but can also involve things as other worlds, dimensions, or phenomena that trascend the physical world.

The human brain has evolved to perceive that which is beneficial to its survival. Under normal circumstances, the spectrum of reality through which it "looks" is quite narrow (consider the historical problems of comprehending quantum physics, creation, space-time, and death). Some people may argue that the augmentation of certain chemical processes in the brain allow it to perceive portions of reality that would usually be wasteful to comprehend, and thus would be unlikely to be emergent in the population in the long run. Obviously, drugs at least change the way we perceive the limited sensory information our brains provide us.

I realize theres alot of people out there who are morons and would take mushrooms just to get uber fuxor up. Mushrooms are used for inner learning and are very powerful.

That's very true.

I'm glad somebody started this topic, a year ago I was very troubled with myself and people around me, and my first trip (16g psilocybe tampanensis) took me beyond the point human consciousness can understand. 4 hours of laughter, crying, happyness, my mind and soul were open to the whole environment. I tripped alone and in the semi-dark. The morning after I wasn't the person i had been before, I dared to open my eyes and today i'm a modern hippie, somebody who spreads Love just the way I learned it from the mushroom. To me, the mushroom has only one message to us al: Learn to Love, be who you are, righteous with yourself and everyone around you.
LSD tought me things about Life, about people, and about Love. Mushrooms showed me my true self. I'm certain psychedelics can help you through life as long as you're an intelligent being.

That's very true.

I'm glad somebody started this topic, a year ago I was very troubled with myself and people around me, and my first trip (16g psilocybe tampanensis) took me beyond the point human consciousness can understand. 4 hours of laughter, crying, happyness, my mind and soul were open to the whole environment. I tripped alone and in the semi-dark. The morning after I wasn't the person i had been before, I dared to open my eyes and today i'm a modern hippie, somebody who spreads Love just the way I learned it from the mushroom. To me, the mushroom has only one message to us al: Learn to Love, be who you are, righteous with yourself and everyone around you.
LSD tought me things about Life, about people, and about Love. Mushrooms showed me my true self. I'm certain psychedelics can help you through life as long as you're an intelligent being.

Very awesome man. I agree with you about lsd as well. You gain an appreciation for everything and yourself. I am positive that psychadelic drugs can make life better, I can speak from my own experiences.

I am positive that psychadelic drugs can make life better...

Yes, when used responsibly.

* * * * *

To the eye-rollers viewing this thread as a work of the delusional, what qualifies as a hallucinogenic experience?

What qualifies as a spiritual/metaphysical experience?

How would you change your life if you saw it, malleable, in the palm of your hand?
This has been the most powerful element of the drug experiences I've had. In experiencing bizarre things, so distant from normality, I feel one step removed from myself.
Then I mold my life, how can I be more me? How can I find my peace of mind? What do I want to do?
Or I'll just sit and meditate and see where I go. Sometimes it feels like I've fallen asleep, sometimes it feels like I've woken up.
But it always feels like home. And that's possibly the most disturbing thing about the whole experience.
Meditating, letting my mind be silent, feels like I'm home. More home than my parents' embrace or my lover's kiss.

Freaky :) Happy searching!

How would you change your life if you saw it, malleable, in the palm of your hand?
This has been the most powerful element of the drug experiences I've had. In experiencing bizarre things, so distant from normality, I feel one step removed from myself.
Then I mold my life, how can I be more me? How can I find my peace of mind? What do I want to do?
Or I'll just sit and meditate and see where I go. Sometimes it feels like I've fallen asleep, sometimes it feels like I've woken up.
But it always feels like home. And that's possibly the most disturbing thing about the whole experience.
Meditating, letting my mind be silent, feels like I'm home. More home than my parents' embrace or my lover's kiss.

Freaky :) Happy searching!


Nice:) When Life tells a story about itself and it comes to the point where you get in, you can re-evaluate your destiny into the neverending story. And yes, it is somewhat coming home each time... And the knowing that we all share the same thoughts in the end. We are beings of light!

Aham Brahmasmi.

Scientists found out that someone who meditates long enough taps into and overloads this area of the brain. They then experience a state of ONENESS with everything. That we are all one. Connected. This is do to momentarily shutting off the "YOU ARE SEPARATE" auto brain response.

Same basic thing with mushrooms. Not to say I dont think drugs expand your awareness or anything. They most certainly CAN. I just do not think by taking them you tap into some spiritual plane of existence.

Do you think you can really tell if the 'damage' is the cause of the sensation of oneness, or a result of looking for a material explanation of the sensation within the illusion (or Maya, as in Sanskrit) itself?

Do you think you can really tell if the 'damage' is the cause of the sensation of oneness, or a result of looking for a material explanation of the sensation within the illusion (or Maya, as in Sanskrit) itself?

Well if you have a specific part of the brain that regulates what is percieved as you from everything outside of you.

So you ingest hallucinogenic chemicals, then decide that what you experience has some kind of "deeper, spiritual meaning."

Meanwhile, you are ingesting hallucinogenic chemicals.

...

Thanks for appearing on "Wheel of Reality", here is your consolation prize...

People who say things like this have never taken LSD, peyote, or psilocybin.

At least read Heaven and Hell by Aldous Huxley if you are afraid to truly open your mind...

So you ingest hallucinogenic chemicals, then decide that what you experience has some kind of "deeper, spiritual meaning."

Meanwhile, you are ingesting hallucinogenic chemicals.

...

Thanks for appearing on "Wheel of Reality", here is your consolation prize...

ok. let's assume you injest a homoeopathic dosage of a 'hallucinogenic chemical' and you sit down and meditate and have the most amazing out of body experience. how would you perceive the little mushroom that grows in cow pastures? you would have a spiritual awakening, so to speak, and you would have a perceptual stimulus opening your mind to the fact that even ugliness can spawn beauty... (which is also true with 2 ugly ass parents making hot ass offspring. so there's something to back up my claim...) yeah i'm a little high. blow me skeptiks

Well if you have a specific part of the brain that regulates what is percieved as you from everything outside of you.

Separation is maya.

Temporay brain damage = spiritual experience.

Look up the INSANE shit that comes with damaging different parts of your brain.

I enjoyed my mushroom and LSD experiences. The drug just damages portions of your brain and enable you to think differently. Sometimes this is a good thing and sometimes a bad thing. Doesn't mean that what you think, feel, experience is real or that you are interacting with another reality. Just means your perceptions are fucked up.

Doesn't mean that what you think, feel, experience is real or that you are interacting with another reality. Just means your perceptions are fucked up.

Are you the judge of this? How sure are you that everything you think, feel and experience while not using drugs is real?

I think theres much more to this then what meets the eye. In fact, what meets the eye is only one way of looking at whats happening.

Salvia and DMT are very interesting. I find the ego loss experienced during a salvia break-through, and how akin it is to death especially interesting.

To have some insight into the deeper nature of reality, through hallucinogenics or otherwise, man must have some sort of favor in the universe. By that I mean that he must be special, perhaps the end result of an endeavor by an intelligent creator, or he must have risen above some waterline of cognitive ability necessary to "see" and/or reason beyond the bounds of our ordinary existence.

If you're a theist, the first makes sense. If you're an atheist, feel free to adopt the latter view.

Any reasoned arguments as to how you can tell the difference between a religious experience facilitated by a drug and one caused by a drug would be appreciated.

Edit: I've taken several courses in religion, including one specifically dedicated to mysticism, and I don't know of a good argument for this last question so I'm interested to see what you've got.

All the visible matter in the universe accounts for only 4 percent of the total energy mass.
Most of it's invisible. Does this mean that your reality is false? Most people would say, no. My reality is my reality. What I perceive is what is real to me.
But as soon as you take drugs, people discount the experience, as if sobriety was any more an accurate depiction of the universe we live in.

Why when we have spiritual or mystical experiences, do we discredit it as 'just science' or 'false'. Science isn't our pet. Science is an observation of the incredible, incomprehensible universe that exists with us in it.

That's why I have as much of a gripe (if not more) with atheists as organized religions. They are stripping the mysticism from life, making it a sad grind devoid of hope.

Peace.

Any reasoned arguments as to how you can tell the difference between a religious experience facilitated by a drug and one caused by a drug would be appreciated.

Why does there need to be a difference? Those are different interpretations of the same event...illusion either way.

^That's pretty much the best answer I know of. Even with "direct personal experience" of the sacred, it still comes down to faith, doesn't it?

^That's pretty much the best answer I know of. Even with "direct personal experience" of the sacred, it still comes down to faith, doesn't it?

Its all belief, interpretations of maya.

Just so long as neither of us is claiming objective truth-status, it's all good XD

I'm a philosophy major minoring in religion, forgive me if I'm nitpicking.

Just so long as neither of us is claiming objective truth-status, it's all good XD

I think thats kinda impossible. I can't say that everything is a lie without making that statement seem true.

Whether the observer interprets an experience of this nature as an illusion to what he considers reality, or to be a hidden part of reality, to be the touch of a God or to be reality itself is unimportant. They are all the same, they are all maya. And so is stating so.

All being "maya," you take a Buddhist/Hindu view of reality, then?

All being "maya," you take a Buddhist/Hindu view of reality, then?

No, no religious ties really. I agree with certain concepts, and so borrow terminology. Lots of people here have a big fit when I begin stating that all is illusion.

"ok. let's assume you injest a homoeopathic dosage of a 'hallucinogenic chemical' and you sit down and meditate and have the most amazing out of body experience. how would you perceive the little mushroom that grows in cow pastures?"

Since I'm not a dumb motherfucker, I would go "Wow, what a crazy ass trip!" and continue to regard the mushroom as a mushroom.

"you would have a spiritual awakening, so to speak,"

Considering that the term "spiritual" means whatever the hell overly-emotionalistic tools such as yourself define it to mean at any given moment, I'm gonna go with a "Probably Not" on that one.

I've had some crazy awesome trips before, but when all is said and done, all that happened was I fucked my brain up for a little bit and has some fun. There is no "larger truth" to be had.

"and you would have a perceptual stimulus opening your mind to the fact that even ugliness can spawn beauty... (which is also true with 2 ugly ass parents making hot ass offspring. so there's something to back up my claim...)"

Again, since I'm not a dumb motherfucker, I wouldn't need drugs to understand that ugly people can have beautiful offspring. I've seen it happen before and while it's cool, it doesn't "mean" anything significant.

"yeah i'm a little high. blow me skeptiks"

Somehow, I get the impression that you would be just as stupid when you're sober.

Since I'm not a dumb motherfucker, I would go "Wow, what a crazy ass trip!" and continue to regard the mushroom as a mushroom.



Considering that the term "spiritual" means whatever the hell overly-emotionalistic tools such as yourself define it to mean at any given moment, I'm gonna go with a "Probably Not" on that one.

I've had some crazy awesome trips before, but when all is said and done, all that happened was I fucked my brain up for a little bit and has some fun. There is no "larger truth" to be had.



Again, since I'm not a dumb motherfucker, I wouldn't need drugs to understand that ugly people can have beautiful offspring. I've seen it happen before and while it's cool, it doesn't "mean" anything significant.



Somehow, I get the impression that you would be just as stupid when you're sober.

So your saying you take mushrooms for th sole purpose of getting fucked up, and dont see anything of it beyond that?

So your saying you take mushrooms for th sole purpose of getting fucked up, and dont see anything of it beyond that?

Theres the problem right there.

Well, part of it anyways.

Theres the problem right there.

Well, part of it anyways.

indeed.

All the mushroom wants is to tell us a story. And that story is that our whole universe is built out of Love. After all, it's all that matters, the reason why we are what we are...

"So your saying you take mushrooms for th sole purpose of getting fucked up, and dont see anything of it beyond that?"

I don't see anything more than that in a trip because there isn't anymore more than that to see.

Drugs do not tie you into some universe-spanning central consciousness, or help you ascend to some higher plane of reality, or any other meaningless quasi-new age fiction you think sounds cool. It fucks you up, that's all.

Just because you assign some "deeper meaning" to hallucinogenic experiences doesn't somehow make it into something other than ingesting chemicals that screw around with your brain.

I don't see anything more than that in a trip because there isn't anymore more than that to see.

Of course there is, you just don't want to look at it that way.

It fucks you up, that's all.

And how do you know this?

...ingesting chemicals that screw around with your brain.

Everything 'in your brain' screws around with 'your brain'! All 'you' are is chemicals!

In truth, there is you, and nothing else man.

"Of course there is, you just don't want to look at it that way."

I'd love it if I could get some shrooms and open my mind to some cosmic truth. The fact of the matter is that it's just a chemical reaction.

"And how do you know this?"

Because I know how drugs work, you tool. Get over to BLTC and maybe learn something about that. Do you still think the versions of the Oracle at Delphi are some kind of mystery?

"Everything 'in your brain' screws around with 'your brain'! All 'you' are is chemicals!"

No shit, sherlock. That's what I've been saying. Chemicals and their interactions don't have crazy galaxy-spanning properties.

"In truth, there is you, and nothing else man."

Whatever, just learn your shit you dumb fuck.

I'd love it if I could get some shrooms and open my mind to some cosmic truth. The fact of the matter is that it's just a chemical reaction.

The fact of the matter is you believe its only a chemical reaction...and I'm not saying you're wrong there. Thats just another perspective on the matter, another way of observing the experience.

You are viewing reality in a different way.

Because I know how drugs work, you tool. Get over to BLTC and maybe learn something about that.

Oh, I understand. I understand what you are saying is a single interpretation of the experience. I understand you don't believe it goes beyond your perception of the material world.

No shit, sherlock. That's what I've been saying. Chemicals and their interactions don't have crazy galaxy-spanning properties.

You love assuming things.

Whatever, just learn your shit you dumb fuck.

Learn what? The way YOU choose to perceive reality?

Fuck you mongrel!

"The fact of the matter is you believe its only a chemical reaction...and I'm not saying you're wrong there. Thats just another perspective on the matter, another way of observing the experience.

You are viewing reality in a different way.""

I am viewing reality in the only way that makes sense. There is no evidence, no proof, for any of the bullshit you assert. Moreover, much of it is physically impossible. Thusly, there is no reason for me to believe it, no matter what I myself might want.

"Oh, I understand. I understand what you are saying is a single interpretation of the experience."

No, what I'm saying is that you're an idiot who makes shit up because it's emotionally satisfying to believe it. That's not a way of thinking that improves lives or gets things accomplished.

"I understand you don't believe it goes beyond your perception of the material world."

You don't seem to understand what ingesting these chemicals does to you, do you?

"You love assuming things."

Nice projection there, bub. I'm not assuming anything; meanwhile you're the one assigning impossible properties to simple hallucinogens. Magic mushrooms aren't actually "magic."

"Learn what? The way YOU choose to perceive reality?"

Learn how our brains function, learn what the effects of these chemicals on our brains are, learn that just because you desperately WANT to have special super powers whenever you trip doesn't mean you actually have them.

Emotions are wonderful things, but they're piss poor tools when it comes to understanding the world around us. Drugs that fuck with that shit aren't usually reliable for that either, comprende mon capitain doucherag?

"Fuck you mongrel!"

"Wah! The mean ol' skeptic destroyed my pitiful arguments with sound reasoning! He's a bad man!"

Somebody call your mother, maybe she'll accept you back into her womb for a few more months until you grow a functioning brain.

"

Learn how our brains function, learn what the effects of these chemicals on our brains are, learn that just because you desperately WANT to have special super powers whenever you trip doesn't mean you actually have them.

The funny thing is no one is claiming to have super powers or enlightenment because of taking mushrooms. So let me ask you than, how do the chemicals in mushrooms effect the brain?

I am viewing reality in the only way that makes sense. There is no evidence, no proof, for any of the bullshit you assert. Moreover, much of it is physically impossible. Thusly, there is no reason for me to believe it, no matter what I myself might want.

What, exactly, do you believe I am asserting?

There is no proof for the bullshit you already believe about reality, like this conversation taking place, either!

Unless you mean that which you experience and cannot confirm with anyone, which would make anything I experience on shrooms just as 'true' as this whole illusion as well.

No, what I'm saying is that you're an idiot who makes shit up because it's emotionally satisfying to believe it. That's not a way of thinking that improves lives or gets things accomplished.

Emotionally satisfying, like the satisfaction and security you feel from your own beliefs about reality?

Emotions are illusions, BTW.

You don't seem to understand what ingesting these chemicals does to you, do you?

They alter my perception of 'reality', maya, this big 'ol illusion...to another illusion. Contrary to your belief, neither one is true. Sorry.

Nice projection there, bub. I'm not assuming anything; meanwhile you're the one assigning impossible properties to simple hallucinogens. Magic mushrooms aren't actually "magic."

You assume I believe a whole bunch about shrooms which I never stated.

Learn how our brains function, learn what the effects of these chemicals on our brains are, learn that just because you desperately WANT to have special super powers whenever you trip doesn't mean you actually have them.

Like this for instance...special super powers?

WTF are you on?

Or, right, an ego trip. Have fun with that.

Emotions are wonderful things, but they're piss poor tools when it comes to understanding the world around us. Drugs that fuck with that shit aren't usually reliable for that either, comprende mon capitain doucherag?

'The world around us'....right. :rolleyes:

"Wah! The mean ol' skeptic destroyed my pitiful arguments with sound reasoning! He's a bad man!"

You mean you're trying to feel secure with your own version of reality, which you cannot know is true, by belittling my own?

What, exactly, do you believe I am asserting?

There is no proof for the bullshit you already believe about reality, like this conversation taking place, either!

There is plenty of proof that this conversation is taking place, don't be obtuse on top of your other failings. This conversation can be independently verified by anyone who reads the thread.

Unless you mean that which you experience and cannot confirm with anyone, which would make anything I experience on shrooms just as 'true' as this whole illusion as well.

So now this is all an illusion, outstanding. :rolleyes:

Emotionally satisfying, like the satisfaction and security you feel from your own beliefs about reality?

I don't base my knowledge on how I "feel" about it. I have facts, you have your little made up fairy tales.

Emotions are illusions, BTW.

Emotions and their effects on humans are quite real, we can study them and their causes in detail.

They alter my perception of 'reality', maya, this big 'ol illusion...to another illusion. Contrary to your belief, neither one is true. Sorry.

Everything is an illusion, yadda yadda yadda. Do you have anything solid to back up this rediculous nonsense you keep spewing, or are you going to keep talking about all these "illusions" until David Copperfield gets tired of shoving his hand up your ass?

You don't seem to understand that ingesting hallucinogens does not provide some significant new viewpoint on reality. From the sounds of it, you're pretty fucked up anyway so I'd lay off the shrooms.

Provide evidence that reality and emotions are illusions, please.

You assume I believe a whole bunch about shrooms which I never stated.

You've been talking nonsense throughout this entire thread, making baseless assertions about reality without anything to back them up; how about you provide some evidence that everything is an illusion? How about you stop trying to elude the questions I've been asking you?

Oh wait, you can't, because that would probably be an illusion too, right? Whatever, dipshit.

"Like this for instance...special super powers?

WTF are you on?

Or, right, an ego trip. Have fun with that."

I'm on an ego trip? I'm not the one that thinks everything is an illusion. I'm so sorry that reason and logic are apparently beyond your pitiful emotional understanding.

'The world around us'....right. :rolleyes:

You have this strange habit of talking a lot but saying absolutely nothing of any consequence.

You mean you're trying to feel secure with your own version of reality,

I love the smell of goalposts shifting in the morning. Smells like... desperation.

I'm perfectly secure in the knowledge that backing up assertions with facts will continue to provide useful knowledge about the universe, because so far that's the only method that's been effective.

You on the other hand... fuck, I don't even know what's wrong with you.

which you cannot know is true,

Well, considering that you haven't backed up your shit at all in this thread, even if I'm wrong you're probably not right either.

by belittling my own?

If there was anything to suggest that what you believe was worth anyone's respect, I'd be a lot nicer. But since that's not the case, I have no problem calling you on your delusional bullshit.

You keep saying your insane "viewpoint" on reality is somehow valid. Back that up with something or fuck off.

This conversation can be independently verified by anyone who reads the thread.

No, it really cannot, and if anyone comes along and begins verifying it, I cannot consider them to be any more then part of the illusion themselves.

So now this is all an illusion, outstanding.

It was never anything but.

I don't base my knowledge on how I "feel" about it. I have facts, you have your little made up fairy tales.

Whats made up by admitting all this is illusion? All I know is I am.

Emotions and their effects on humans are quite real, we can study them and their causes in detail.

All within an illusion.

You don't seem to understand that ingesting hallucinogens does not provide some significant new viewpoint on reality.

What? Yes, thats exactly what they do. They alter your perception of reality, and usually, it feels very significant.

Provide evidence that reality and emotions are illusions, please.

Evidence of this is impossible.

But I'll explain it like this:

Right now, you consider the 'effects of shrooms' to be illusions, because its an alteration from what you know to be true about reality(including what you believe is 'normal' brain chemistry).

However, its not. Its an alteration from what you believe is true. Despite anything you think of as evidence and proof, the only thing you know, is you are. Using the same logic, everything you experience besides awareness of nothing is an illusion.

You've been talking nonsense throughout this entire thread, making baseless assertions about reality without anything to back them up

Could you point a few out...this time?

Since you didn't with this last reply...

how about you provide some evidence that everything is an illusion? How about you stop trying to elude the questions I've been asking you?

I cannot provide evidence, nor would I want to...why would I bother 'proving' you're nothing but an illusion to me? I don't care.

What questions?

I'm on an ego trip? I'm not the one that thinks everything is an illusion. I'm so sorry that reason and logic are apparently beyond your pitiful emotional understanding.

They're part of my emotional understanding, I just understand its all (emotions, reality, and this understanding) illusion.

You have this strange habit of talking a lot but saying absolutely nothing of any consequence.

So did everyone I've ever believed said anything.

I'm perfectly secure in the knowledge that backing up assertions with facts will continue to provide useful knowledge about the universe, because so far that's the only method that's been effective.

Within your perception at least :D. If you're perfectly secure with it, then why not just...leave? You're so above this thread, these concepts of mine...why bother trying to argue with me?

Well, considering that you haven't backed up your shit at all in this thread, even if I'm wrong you're probably not right either.

Of course I'm not. And you're actually catching on, Wow!

Everything I say, any interaction with 'you', isn't real.

If there was anything to suggest that what you believe was worth anyone's respect, I'd be a lot nicer.

Do you think I give a shit? Obviously not.

You keep saying your insane "viewpoint" on reality is somehow valid. Back that up with something or fuck off.

Why? You haven't backed up anything you said about reality either.

I cannot provide evidence, but I provided some thought on the matter a few replies up.

So please. Tell me what you think reality is, I'll tell you where you're wrong.

Obbe, you are full of shit. You care enough to argue with an illusion by telling him he is one, but conveniently not enough to support it. You're trying to argue over what reality it? Are you serious? You already don't believe in me, but that doesn't make me cease to exist. Therefor I'm a part of reality.

As much as I like tripping, people who try to create religious or "spiritual" experiences out of it are full of shit.

Tripping is fun, it's fascinating, it feels good, and while your tripping you can come up with some cool ideas that you might not have otherwise. Isn't that enough? Do you really have to complicate common sense so that you can convince yourself you're a philosopher and pretend that because you take mushrooms you have a degree in metaphysics?

I guess if you're insecure you can go ahead and pretend we live in some sort of conscious universe that is not only aware of us, but also creates plants (and I don't know if this has been brought up yet, but mushrooms aren't plants, you dumbass) specifically for us to use as "keys to unlock out minds."

Jesus Christ. "I Am" -- You had to trip to figure that out?

Jesus Christ. "I Am" -- You had to trip to figure that out?

No, I figured that (and that 'reality'...yes, including you...is illusion) out a long time ago.

Hallucinations, alternative perceptions, or spiritual experiences, they are just different perceptions of a single event, and are all (including the actual event) illusions.

Spiritual experiences are what people believe them to be. If I take some mush, have a great time, discover a lot about my life and how to live it happier, and feel a general 'love' connection with the world, personally I would describe this as a very spiritual experience.

Would you...oh, and you too Surak....care to tell me what you believe qualifies for a spiritual experience?

I can guess...

No, I figured that (and that 'reality'...yes, including you...is illusion) out a long time ago.

Hallucinations, alternative perceptions, or spiritual experiences, they are just different perceptions of a single event, and are all (including the actual event) illusions.

Spiritual experiences are what people believe them to be. If I take some mush, have a great time, discover a lot about my life and how to live it happier, and feel a general 'love' connection with the world, personally I would describe this as a very spiritual experience.

Would you...oh, and you too Surak....care to tell me what you believe qualifies for a spiritual experience?

I can guess...

To be honest, I don't refer to anything as spiritual. I guess what I would call fun or fullfilling you would call spiritual... but I don't believe in spirits, so whatever.

And you calling everything an illusion in itself is pretty stupid. If everything is an illusion, then by 'illusion' don't you mean reality anyway?

You really didn't respond to anything I posted, and I'm starting to feel retarded for being in this dumb argument, so I'm done. I guess if your response is worth making fun of I might respond with belittlement, but I don't really feel like continuing another argument against a point that technically can't be disproven with someone who will need proof to be convinced (and, to be honest, if common sense doesn't convince you then I doubt proof would either).

To be honest, I don't refer to anything as spiritual. I guess what I would call fun or fullfilling you would call spiritual... but I don't believe in spirits, so whatever.

And you calling everything an illusion in itself is pretty stupid. If everything is an illusion, then by 'illusion' don't you mean reality anyway?

You really didn't respond to anything I posted, and I'm starting to feel retarded for being in this dumb argument, so I'm done. I guess if your response is worth making fun of I might respond with belittlement, but I don't really feel like continuing another argument against a point that technically can't be disproven with someone who will need proof to be convinced (and, to be honest, if common sense doesn't convince you then I doubt proof would either).

I think we need some information from good old wikipedia so heres what they have to say on spirituality:

"Those who speak of spirituality as opposed to religion generally meta-religiously believe in the existence of many "spiritual paths" and deny any objective truth about the best path to follow. Rather, adherents of this definition of the term emphasize the importance of finding one's own path to whatever-god-there-is, rather than following what others say works. In summary: the path which makes the most coherent sense becomes the correct one (for oneself)."

And heres further information about what objective truth is:

"A neutral point of view, requires that one does not personally take a point of view, that is, that one represent all sides of the story without personal observation or conjecture. By contrast, it is possible to be philosophically objective in presenting or describing a controversial or novel point of view."

EDIT:
I always found this interesting, Objectivism

"Objectivism, or metaphysical objectivism, is the view that there is a reality or realm of objects and facts existing wholly independent of the mind. Stronger versions of this claim might hold that there is only one correct description of this reality; they may or may not hold that we have any knowledge of it. If it is true that reality is independent of the mind, the reality of objectivism is thus inclusive of objects which one may not know about and are not the intended objects of mental acts. Objectivity in referring requires a definition of what is true, and is distinct from the objects themselves which cannot be said to be true or false. An object may truthfully be said to have this or that attribute, such as the statement "This object exists", whereas the statement "This object is true" or "false" is meaningless. Thus, only references, or the statements one makes about objects without assigning truth value to the object itself, are true or false. Essentially, the terms "objectivity" and "objectivism" are not synonymous, with objectivism being an ontological theory to which a method of objectivity would apply."

"Would you...oh, and you too Surak....care to tell me what you believe qualifies for a spiritual experience?"

Tell you what, if you can actually back up any of the bullshit you've been spewing, I'll be happy to try and talk to you. Unfortunately, you've proven repeatedly that you're incapable of doing so. I've said this before and I'll say it again: You talk a lot and say nothing. I don't know why this is, but hopefully you'll never breed and therefore spare an unsuspecting child your idiotic nonsense.

To be honest, I don't refer to anything as spiritual.

I guessed right!

If everything is an illusion, then by 'illusion' don't you mean reality anyway?

It truly depends on your perception.

Illusions are alterations from what is true reality. But you do not know what true reality is. All that is known to be true is 'I AM'. Everything about reality can be considered an illusion. Including any recognition of 'I AM', leaving awareness of nothing, single existence.

You can look at it in the complete opposite manner, that there are no illusions and every experience and possibility is true. Infinity as a point (http://www.tenthdimension.com/medialinks.php), a singular. Seems you would reach the same conclusion.


You really didn't respond to anything I posted

Theres really not much worth responding to.

...can't be disproven...

Hmmmmm.....

with someone who will need proof to be convinced (and, to be honest, if common sense doesn't convince you then I doubt proof would either).

Proof? Proof of what? Reality? Did I ever ask for such nonsense?

No such proof exists my friend, unless you consider experience to be proof. Nothing can be known to be true or an illusion for sure, except that 'I AM' apparently experiencing one or the other.

Tell you what, if you can actually back up any of the bullshit you've been spewing, I'll be happy to try and talk to you.

You don't know anything except 'I AM'.

Happy to talk now?

ummm here's what it all boils down to you. you either believe that life has a metaphysical plane. one in which the things you hold and posess affect the things that you do and ultimately what happens to you. should you not choose to view the world this way, you are a materialistic individual that believes solely in the world as you can look at it. if you look at the world as a part of teh universe, and us as a part of the world, you soon begin to realize that every little thing matters. even the smallest most seemingly insignificant trifling piece of 'what have you' can be the most amazingly poetically eloquent wonder of your life. and yeah they may be some shitty metaphors or similies but the fact stands that i'm high as balls... :D and stupidity is an opinion you ignorant ass DUMB mother fucker...

I think we need some information...

Nice, nice.

Nice, nice.

haha its funny what you find when your trying to find something to back up the discussion. I'm really glad i found that part on objectivism, i was aware of the concept just wasn't aware thats what it was called and all.

Happy to talk now?

or...what about a reply to post number 55?

or...what about a reply to post number 55?

You don't understand... there is absolutely no point in responding because it's impossible to argue. Any time he presents something, you say it's 'part of the illusion'. Okay, well, if you think it's all a big illusion, that's fine, but since we aren't experiencing anything outside of this 'illusion' it is reality as we know it.

I don't really get the point you're trying to make. If everything we've ever experienced is an illusion, then what is reality? "I Am" is not a proper response to this. If all of my experiences are not real, then "I Am Not"

You don't understand... there is absolutely no point in responding because it's impossible to argue. Any time he presents something, you say it's 'part of the illusion'. Okay, well, if you think it's all a big illusion, that's fine, but since we aren't experiencing anything outside of this 'illusion' it is reality as we know it.

I don't really get the point you're trying to make. If everything we've ever experienced is an illusion, then what is reality? "I Am" is not a proper response to this. If all of my experiences are not real, then "I Am Not"

By having the ability to consider if you are or not "Am I?" you already do. Whether your experiences and what you see are real or not is only up to you, and other people can have their input on it to confirm or deny your own idea of what you experience and see. Let me ask you, what do you consider as "reality"?

If everything we've ever experienced is an illusion, then what is reality? "I Am" is not a proper response to this. If all of my experiences are not real, then "I Am Not"

Reality is, obviously, what you make it. 'Truth' and 'illusion' are no more then perspectives, no more solid and definite then 'good' and 'evil'.

My point, is that without faith and in its simplest, truest form reality is awareness of nothing, 'being', the void...the only truth which the untrue recognition of thoughts like 'I AM' and 'Aham Brahmasmi' represent.

Existence.

Reality is, obviously, what you make it. 'Truth' and 'illusion' are no more then perspectives, no more solid and definite then 'good' and 'evil'.

My point, is that without faith and in its simplest form reality is awareness of nothing, 'being', the void...the only truth which the untrue recognition of thoughts like 'I AM' and 'Aham Brahmasmi' represent.

Existence.

Thats most likely what throws a lot of people off about it. Even saying and thinking I AM are part of the illusion themselves, I AM is mearly awareness of ones self, not to be confused with oneself

Also Obbe, for anyone who might want to understand this a little more could you recommend any good books on the subject?

I have a couple laying around, but none directly on this subject. These wiki's might be more useful, but you've probably seen them before...

Solipsism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism)

Pantheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism)

Read into alot of religions texts, but keep in mind they're all lies. Look for the basic correlations. In Hinduism and Buddhism it can be very easy to see past the dogma.

Imagining the Tenth Dimension (http://www.tenthdimension.com/medialinks.php) could be seen as unrelated, but I think otherwise. Very good read.

Besides that, general books on consciousness and reality are good. I have a couple laying around my hovel, but most are probably outdated.

Edit - Personally I think its better to do it yourself. Look into Samatha meditation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samatha_meditation). If you are not opposed to smoking a bit of cannabis, this (http://www.eoni.com/%7evisionquest/library/SOTH.html) is a good method. Heres another article (http://www.eoni.com/%7evisionquest/library/miscresurrection.html) leading into the above ritual.

Ya' hippie.

I have a couple laying around, but none directly on this subject. These wiki's might be more useful, but you've probably seen them before...

Solipsism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solipsism)

Pantheism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheism)

Read into alot of religions texts, but keep in mind they're all lies. Look for the basic correlations. In Hinduism and Buddhism it can be very easy to see past the dogma.

Imagining the Tenth Dimension (http://www.tenthdimension.com/medialinks.php) could be seen as unrelated, but I think otherwise. Very good read.

Besides that, general books on consciousness and reality are good. I have a couple laying around my hovel, but most are probably outdated.

Edit - Personally I think its better to do it yourself. Look into Samatha meditation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samatha_meditation). If you are not opposed to smoking a bit of cannabis, this (http://www.eoni.com/%7evisionquest/library/SOTH.html) is a good method. Heres another article (http://www.eoni.com/%7evisionquest/library/miscresurrection.html) leading into the above ritual.

Ya' hippie.

Thank you so much Obbe. I'm deff going to try that when I get some weed. It sounds like its worth a shot.

Thank you so much Obbe. I'm deff going to try that when I get some weed. It sounds like its worth a shot.

Yeah, its basically the same as a samatha meditation, in which you are using 'the high' as your object of focus. I found it works great!