For those of you of a faith, any faith: What does your faith teach about national pride/citizenship?

I'm of the branch of Xtianity that believes that all 'states' of man are inherently evil and that as believers we are citizens of none.

I know however that especially american denominations preach the 'holy' nature of the US.

So whats your feeling ? Are we part in the world but not part of the world or is serving your country =serving god?

(btw the title is from a song by Alabama 3 "Woody Guthrie")

It's a simple ploy to give themselves credence, it should be obvious to everyone that God doesn't like your country any more than any other unless he actually comes and says it

It's a simple ploy to give themselves credence, it should be obvious to everyone that God doesn't like your country any more than any other unless he actually comes and says it

Like he did in the bible for the Jews (his chosen people) and the promised land (Israel).

According to the Coral Ridge hour America was founded by christians and created in christian roots.

So I think maybe the christian god likes america and the jew god likes the israel. (Yes I know but they have to be different gods b/c one of them is wrong and god is never wrong). I assume the hindu god likes india and the greek gods favored......the greeks.

Who a god favors appears to be for the most part dependant on the culture and region that "discovered" said god or gods.

More obvious religious flaws.

For those of you of a faith, any faith: What does your faith teach about national pride/citizenship?

I'm of the branch of Xtianity that believes that all 'states' of man are inherently evil and that as believers we are citizens of none.

I know however that especially american denominations preach the 'holy' nature of the US.

So whats your feeling ? Are we part in the world but not part of the world or is serving your country =serving god?

(btw the title is from a song by Alabama 3 "Woody Guthrie")

Interesting. What sect would that be?

The Bible, as far as I know, has nothing to say about countries, nor pride in it. The closest thing I know of that the Bible discusses to the tune of government is that the early Christians were communists operating as a stateless society within a state. (HA! Thats pretty close to the NSK ideals)

People as a whole need guidance in accordance with day-to-day living. Christianity was never envisioned by Jesus nor the early Christians as ever becoming a theocracy. Even so, we dont have a direct link to God's will via the Umim & Thumim as the Jews did, so it would be very hard to direct a true theocracy.

When recognizing this reality, we should consider ourselfs citizens of the Earth before a nation, or so I believe.

...different gods...

Hahaha.

I assume the hindu god likes india

Brahman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahman)?

I'm Asatru, and my faith doesn't necessarily teach me about national pride, but about pride of ancestry. Technically this should mean that because of my Scottish blood I should have Scottish pride, and I do, but that is not to do with my faith. I'm proud of who I am, regardless of where I live (especially since I live in a major multi-cultural country). But I am proud of my faith, and I honor my ancestors and my Gods.

Although I am proud (and not proud at the same time) to be a Kiwi, but again, that is not to do with faith.

Thor likes everyone, except America.

When recognizing this reality, we should consider ourselfs citizens of the Earth before a nation, or so I believe.

We just barely care about people of the same country, don't think it'll stretch farther than that

We are All One.

No person, nation, religion,ethnic group, profession, race, gender or gender orientation--whatever--is any better or any worse than any other. We are all doing the best we can, given the parameters we accept. (Sadly for the world, the current POTUS is a self-deluded egomaniac--and a rather stupid one at that.)

Nationalism is often just an excuse for bad behavior--it has never benefitted society in any real fashion.

We just barely care about people of the same country

Yes, and it certainly is not making it a better place to live.

don't think it'll stretch farther than that

Sadly, neither do I.

We are All One.

We are All One.

No person, nation, religion,ethnic group, profession, race, gender or gender orientation--whatever--is any better or any worse than any other. We are all doing the best we can, given the parameters we accept. (Sadly for the world, the current POTUS is a self-deluded egomaniac--and a rather stupid one at that.)

Nationalism is often just an excuse for bad behavior--it has never benefitted society in any real fashion.

Why when I read 'POTUS' do I see 'GROFAZ'?

Who god loves and who god doesnt is ENTIRELY dependant upon the culture that "discovered" or first "learned" about said god.

I find that strange....

Op you are an idiot.

The reason there shouldn't be nationalism anymore is that the few elite of the world control every single country thorugh banking systems and such, and not because of your shitty religion.

Op you are an idiot.

The reason there shouldn't be nationalism anymore is that the few elite of the world control every single country thorugh banking systems and such, and not because of your shitty religion.

You say that like its an inherently bad thing. What if such a country doled out huge amounts of money to the needy?

You say that like its an inherently bad thing. What if such a country doled out huge amounts of money to the needy?

You must be a psycho. The only way this elite could exist is because the needy also exist. First rule of capitalism. And frankly, no one but liberals wanting to pose as humanitarians actually care about "the needy". Everything that happens to the world economy nowadays is calculated and performed by people such as the Rothschild ect.

Oh and please dont you go eat my soul :eek:

You must be a psycho. The only way this elite could exist is because the needy also exist. First rule of capitalism. And frankly, no one but liberals wanting to pose as humanitarians actually care about "the needy". Everything that happens to the world economy nowadays is calculated and performed by people such as the Rothschild ect.

Oh and please dont you go eat my soul :eek:

You don't think that there is some fault in the majority of people to make them sympathetic to the needy. Just because the average person doesn't have the means (or the intelligence) to make a difference doesn't mean they don't care.

oh and as a side note I'd like to announce my return to this forum after a three month hiatus, good to be back.

You don't think that there is some fault in the majority of people to make them sympathetic to the needy. Just because the average person doesn't have the means (or the intelligence) to make a difference doesn't mean they don't care.

oh and as a side note I'd like to announce my return to this forum after a three month hiatus, good to be back.

Well i certainly dont give a shit, does that make me not normal?

ya, generally people aren't sociopathic. I find the majority of people, even someone as deeply cynical as myself find pity for those subject to abject misery.

ya, generally people aren't sociopathic. I find the majority of people, even someone as deeply cynical as myself find pity for those subject to abject misery.

Well i do feel some pity for poor white people, but certainly not other people's.

You say that like its an inherently bad thing.

Of course it is, we're talking about humans here. Do you really think there's some fucking rich philanthropists playing the world to the common good? It's a nice thought but no, only assholes make it to the top, it's the nature of the game. That alone is enough to make it a really bad thing

I'm Asatru, and my faith doesn't necessarily teach me about national pride, but about pride of ancestry. Technically this should mean that because of my Scottish blood I should have Scottish pride, and I do, but that is not to do with my faith. I'm proud of who I am, regardless of where I live (especially since I live in a major multi-cultural country). But I am proud of my faith, and I honor my ancestors and my Gods.

Although I am proud (and not proud at the same time) to be a Kiwi, but again, that is not to do with faith.

That doesn't make any sense. Why should you be proud of what your ancestors did? You had nothing to do with them.

That doesn't make any sense. Why should you be proud of what your ancestors did? You had nothing to do with them.

Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.

Of course it is, we're talking about humans here. Do you really think there's some fucking rich philanthropists playing the world to the common good? It's a nice thought but no, only assholes make it to the top, it's the nature of the game. That alone is enough to make it a really bad thing

With all due respect, the above is not only sadly unevolved, but grossly factually incorrect. Bill Gates et al are doing a lot to help Africa. Many other people are doing what they can to help the environment, which helps all of us. Still others are working, unknown and unsung, to help the homeless, vets with PTSD, and so on. This sort of thing rarely makes it into the headlines.

"Only assholes make it to the top"? Now there's an affirmation guaranteed to insure personal failure. The thought thought which results logically is "I am not an asshole--therefore, I can and will never make it to the top." This sentiment--besides being hateful, mean-spirited, and fear-based-- is self destructive.

We all create our own reality--yours, my friend, sucks.

only muslim's dont have respect or pride for their country...(or they blow themseles up in it :))

Well i do feel some pity for poor white people, but certainly not other people's.

then your contradicting yourself, you said no one cares. But I just get the impression that you are just one of those few selfish assholes who are born without a soul, as loosely as I believe in such things.

And just to add to armsmerchant's rebuttal of pilsu, Warren Buffet (second richest man on the planet) gave something to the tune of 20 billion dollars to the Bill and Melinda Gates (theres the first) Foundation to be donated to humanitarian efforts world wide. Sure they may only be giving away what they don't want/need they could do much more selfish things with the money, meaning to some small degree they care.

For those of you of a faith, any faith: What does your faith teach about national pride/citizenship?

I'm of the branch of Xtianity that believes that all 'states' of man are inherently evil and that as believers we are citizens of none.

I know however that especially american denominations preach the 'holy' nature of the US.

So whats your feeling ? Are we part in the world but not part of the world or is serving your country =serving god?

(btw the title is from a song by Alabama 3 "Woody Guthrie")

I'm officially Roman Catholic, but for all intensive purposes I consider myself agnostic at the moment. I can still tell you what Catholicism says about the relationship between "God's laws" and "human law."

Catholicism outlines four tiers of law.
Eternal law
Divine law
Natural law
and Human law

Saint Augustine called eternal law "the reason or the will of God, who commands us to respect the natural order and forbids us to disturb it." The eternal law then is merely the rational order of the universe, God's divine reason creating order.

Divine law is considered the revelation of the Old and New Testaments. Thomas Aquinas considered scripture to be complementary to human reason arguing that there are things about the universe we cannot discern for ourselves and require revelation on the part of God. Divine law in the form of scripture is a way we can come to be familiar with the eternal law and God's will/nature.

Natural law is inscribed in each of us by God so that we may instinctively know how to behave in order to achieve our end - spiritual union with God. It's analogous to an auto manufacturer providing instructions with cars so that people know how to use them the right way. It's how God enables us to participate with the natural order of the universe (eternal law). Natural law lets us know 'naturally' what is right to do.

Human law is simply laws designed by reason for the purpose of self-governance, the protection of the common good, etc.

So basically, God's eternal nature imposed natural order on the universe. From this order, natural law was inscribed in humans. Complemented by divine law (scripture), people can reason what they know about the universe and participate in the eternal order of things. Human law derives from natural law since it is a part of us and we fashion our own laws. Therefore governments are part of the natural order of the universe (eternal law) and not contrary to the nature of God or his will. God, in other words, is not angry that we fashion laws to hammer out the fine details of daily life and govern ourselves so long as we continue to respect his laws and our laws do not contradict them. God is eternal and as a result beyond time. He cannot govern every detail of our temporal, secular lives. These are considerations we must make for ourselves.

Thomas Aquinas thought monarchy to be the best form of government, but also the most likely to go wrong. Keep in mind he was writing well before our modern notions of democracy took hold. He said "the rule of one man is more useful than the rule of many for achieving the unity of peace." However, "Once the king is established, the government of the kingdom must be so arranged that opportunity to tyrannize be removed. At the same time his power should be so tempered that he cannot easily fall into tyranny," because the "government of a [just] king is the best, [but] the government of a tyrant is the worst."

This does not mean Catholics think democracy is a bad form of government simply because Aquinas thought monarchy was the shit. There is no conflict between human law (of any government) and God so long as human laws are "rightly reasoned" and in accordance with the natural law and the eternal order of the universe. If they are not, you are justified in resisting under the natural law. This is one reason why many Catholics support pro-life movements. They see abortion as contrary to the natural law because it prevents the right to life from taking hold.

Catholicism is an international faith of over a billion believers. It certainly does not view the United States as somehow blessed or privileged by God over other nations. It (America) has no divine mission to fulfill. Like all nations, it must preserve order for its citizens in accordance with the common good/natural law. The highest law of our land, the Constitution, contains natural law concepts. Most notably, every person's right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

So that's what I was taught. My source for this fine example of "tl;dr" was a book called "50 Questions on the Natural Law: What it is and Why We Need it" by Charles Rice.

The Baptist doctrine I was educated in told us that if the country is Christian in nature then we must obey the laws and be proud to live in that country. According to them, not obeying the laws in a "Christian" society is a sin.

actually all christian doctrines say the exact same thing, because its clear as day in the bible. It says that you should follow human law provided it doesn't contradict the commandments, you don't have to follow any laws you feel are unjust or harm innocent people. =)

I'm a believer in <3, and one's location, upbringing, thoughts, opinions or actions change nothing about the love I feel. We all suffer.

With all due respect, the above is not only sadly unevolved, but grossly factually incorrect. Bill Gates et al are doing a lot to help Africa. Many other people are doing what they can to help the environment, which helps all of us. Still others are working, unknown and unsung, to help the homeless, vets with PTSD, and so on. This sort of thing rarely makes it into the headlines.

"Only assholes make it to the top"? Now there's an affirmation guaranteed to insure personal failure. The thought thought which results logically is "I am not an asshole--therefore, I can and will never make it to the top." This sentiment--besides being hateful, mean-spirited, and fear-based-- is self destructive.

We all create our own reality--yours, my friend, sucks.


well i agree with te second part in what you believe is more than likely what you believe to happen

but, bill gates? since when has he ever had any power in the countries? sure theres loads of rich people who care about to some degree about the world, but jsut because theyre rich doesnt mean they have control over the world. really those who ACTUALLY ARE ON TOP who have loads of money, DONT care about the world, all they care about is that they keep living pampered and can keep raking in their money as billions of people pour in their cash while these guys sit in their chairs doing nothing but saying people owe them money, and well since these people HAVE ALOT OF MONEY, if anyone disagrees, they can send people to make them agree.

its fucked up and hard to believe, but it is true, look at the rockafellers, or any other upper banking people, look at the people who ACTUALLY control the world and understand WHY they control it. then youll realise it all comes back to money, and those who have it can make those who dont do things to help keep those who have it in power, and those in power will do whatever it takes to stay in power, sometimes even give some money to some foundation(thats employees will probably eventually pay back anyway) just so people will think they actually give a shit.

actually all christian doctrines say the exact same thing, because its clear as day in the bible. It says that you should follow human law provided it doesn't contradict the commandments, you don't have to follow any laws you feel are unjust or harm innocent people. =)

I think it's more accurate to say most Christian denominations agree on the same natural law principles but can differ widely in the details. I don't think all Christians share a unified interpretation of these principles. Biblical interpretations differ and not all Christians rely on the same version of the Bible. If there was unity in this 'doctrine' I think we'd have far fewer denominations than actually exist.

That doesn't make any sense. Why should you be proud of what your ancestors did? You had nothing to do with them.

Without my ancestors I would not be here today. And why should I not be proud of what my ancestors have done?

Without my ancestors I would not be here today. And why should I not be proud of what my ancestors have done?

Old ppl sex ftw?

Well, I'm LDS. We believe in supporting your nation, no matter what it is (e.g. the US isn't necessarily a "holier" country than any other). And you won't be punished for supporting your country even if it does bad things. For example - WWII in Germany. Most German soldiers weren't really bad people, they were simply following orders of their leaders.

Well, I'm LDS. We believe in supporting your nation, no matter what it is (e.g. the US isn't necessarily a "holier" country than any other). And you won't be punished for supporting your country even if it does bad things. For example - WWII in Germany. Most German soldiers weren't really bad people, they were simply following orders of their leaders.

Are you saying you're free from moral responsibility if you're just 'following orders?'

Well, I'm LDS. We believe in supporting your nation, no matter what it is (e.g. the US isn't necessarily a "holier" country than any other). And you won't be punished for supporting your country even if it does bad things. For example - WWII in Germany. Most German soldiers weren't really bad people, they were simply following orders of their leaders.

Most Saints I've met (and I've known a lot-the wife was a Sister) have still sorta had the whole 'US is God's Own Country' thang going on, you know?

don't you need to be dead to be canonized?

Are you saying you're free from moral responsibility if you're just 'following orders?'

Not following them was likely to get you executed or worse

Makes you wonder why the troops still fought in Berlin though. Not much left to punish them if they just gave up already

Are you saying you're free from moral responsibility if you're just 'following orders?'
It all depends on your attitude. Using the excuse of following orders to commit a crime is still committing a crime. Following orders that may seem criminal because you have to, not because you agree with it, would not be immoral.
Most Saints I've met (and I've known a lot-the wife was a Sister) have still sorta had the whole 'US is God's Own Country' thang going on, you know?
Yeah, I know what you mean. As far as what the Church actually teaches though, I don't think that any one country is holier than the others.

Like he did in the bible for the Jews (his chosen people) and the promised land (Israel).

According to the Coral Ridge hour America was founded by christians and created in christian roots.

So I think maybe the christian god likes america and the jew god likes the israel. (Yes I know but they have to be different gods b/c one of them is wrong and god is never wrong). I assume the hindu god likes india and the greek gods favored......the greeks.

Who a god favors appears to be for the most part dependant on the culture and region that "discovered" said god or gods.

More obvious religious flaws.

Christianity is about 1800 years older than the USA. So I guess the catholic god favors Italy and the protestant god favores Germany/Netherlands by your logic.

Following orders that may seem criminal because you have to, not because you agree with it, would not be immoral.

I disagree. If you follow orders you know to be criminal, even if you don't agree with it or don't want to do it, you're morally responsible. You have a duty in such a situation to resist those orders.

On a side note, I'd like to ask you a more general question about LDS teachings. I have some LDS friends, I've read most of the Book of Mormon, and it's my understanding that this book continues to be seen as a literal revealed history of the ancient Americas. Given the supposed events of this book and the bounty of linguistic, historical, archaeological, and genetic evidence contradicting this record, how does the Church justify its stance that the Book of Mormon is a literal history?

I disagree. If you follow orders you know to be criminal, even if you don't agree with it or don't want to do it, you're morally responsible. You have a duty in such a situation to resist those orders.

On a side note, I'd like to ask you a more general question about LDS teachings. I have some LDS friends, I've read most of the Book of Mormon, and it's my understanding that this book continues to be seen as a literal revealed history of the ancient Americas. Given the supposed events of this book and the bounty of linguistic, historical, archaeological, and genetic evidence contradicting this record, how does the Church justify its stance that the Book of Mormon is a literal history?

well, if its a life or death situation like, strangle him w/ ur penis or ill shoot you, i think you would do it wouldnt you? or something as simple as, make jokes about jews, or ill shoot you /:D ok? and sometimes even, he nothing happened....or ill shoot you /:] ok?

i mean, should it be considered wrong that someone did it because they were FORCED to, obviously the person is responsible because you ALWAYS CAN say no, but due to certain circumstances, your life can idk maybe be more important to you than say some guy youve never met and probably doesnt have a family anyway.yea wrong to kill someone and sure you could go yea just kill me, but, there prol gonna just get someone else to do it, why the hell should you kill yourself when its going to happen anyway? thats just stupid, if those guys have guns, theres alot of them, and everyone denies their existance... i say yea sure .

and before you even say it, YES you could say no and hold your ground and hope others do so, BUT under certain circumstances, sometimes it just cant be as simple as that(as in, other things should happen, maybe a get together of hey, this guys a dick, lets knock em eh? but AGAIN didnt this happen? and didnt spies eliminate that threat?) and if you cant agree with that, i hope im never in any type of circumstance involving you.

also also, things like other wars (nam/iraq) well, in nam, it was the same thing, only, the sargents were all like BOY YOU BETTER SHOOT THE VEIT NA MEESEEY OR ELSE ILL SHOOT YOU!!!11!1! and idk about iraq really....really im pretty sure they can just go, yea, i shouldnt be here, but i think they do that before they go considering they go into it loving their country and not knowing what it is, come out the same way
but i guess in some situations, where if it was possible for you to deny the request, i guess its just a simple, yea sure ill go do that..and not think about it, but i think in germany...it was quite clear

There's no need to follow a nation when you follow the Dao.

On a side note, I'd like to ask you a more general question about LDS teachings. I have some LDS friends, I've read most of the Book of Mormon, and it's my understanding that this book continues to be seen as a literal revealed history of the ancient Americas. Given the supposed events of this book and the bounty of linguistic, historical, archaeological, and genetic evidence contradicting this record, how does the Church justify its stance that the Book of Mormon is a literal history?

Since when has a little thing such as contrary evidence bothered xians...any xians??!

Don't get me wrong , I both like and respect the LDS-hell I almost became one myself . But expecting any xian to rethink their beliefs simply because every single piece of evidence is against them ...

I wish.

Bill Gates et al are doing a lot to help Africa.

Tax write offs.

[QUOTE=ArmsMerchant;8933043] "Only assholes make it to the top"? Now there's an affirmation guaranteed to insure personal failure. The thought thought which results logically is "I am not an asshole--therefore, I can and will never make it to the top." This sentiment--besides being hateful, mean-spirited, and fear-based-- is self destructive.QUOTE]

This affirmation is NOT guaranteed to insure personal failure. What if a person who is not an asshole becomes an asshole to make it to the top.

EX Only dishonest lawyers and politicians make it to the top. I believe a true statement. IF you want to be at the top of these two fields you will not get there by being ethical or honest. You know that.

Christianity is about 1800 years older than the USA. So I guess the catholic god favors Italy and the protestant god favores Germany/Netherlands by your logic.

Yes. The catholic god favors italy. He sure does. That is why the person catholics pray to lives there.

Protestantism is a general term reffering to the churches born of the reformation from the catholic church in the 15th and 16th century. As such, there are many differnet protestant gods.

My logic is sound. It is not perfect. That is to say I am sure with all the religions and sub religions out there SOME are going to be the exception that proves the rule.

The rule and my logic being this: Gods love the people who discover (invent) them more.

You know this is true.

I happen to think all of you conservative 'Xtians' as you like to call yourselevs (GOD YOU SOUND FUCKING HOMO btw) are ruining our precious america. america may've been founded by christian men, but at least they were men. go take your pussy rant somewhere else.

I know however that especially american denominations preach the 'holy' nature of the US.

I think mormonism is the only american religion that explicitly does that.

I'm of the belief that no man has the right to govern or enslave another, so I guess all societies are out by default.

I think mormonism is the only american religion that explicitly does that.

I'm of the belief that no man has the right to govern or enslave another, so I guess all societies are out by default.

They all do.

God bless the U.S.A. I know you have heard from an American.

God bless Brazil. Heard that one less here in America.

They all do.

God bless the U.S.A. I know you have heard from an American.

God bless Brazil. Heard that one less here in America.

Funny how that works out. I suspect it has something to do with colonial history and the Puritans coming to North America believing it was their God given promised land. The idea never really went away with the Puritans but stuck around and changed throughout the years. Manifest Destiny, our 19th century forays into imperialism, and most recently GW's phraseology.

But it's far from an exclusively American phenomenon. Plenty of other nations throughout the course of time have alleged a divinely inspired mission. A lesser known example I think would be Germany during the Napoleonic Wars. Germany vilified Napoleon and the French so far that they came to be seen as in league with Satan and that it was their duty to struggle against them. Other examples should be more obvious.

Regardless of not having a faith, I feel this way anyways. What makes my piece of dirt any better than yours?

jackketch, why have you taken Christ out of "Xtianity"? Does it save that much time? Isn't it a bit blasphemous?

Anyway, here's what the Bible says.

Galatians 3:28
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

jackketch, why have you taken Christ out of "Xtianity"? Does it save that much time? Isn't it a bit blasphemous?

Anyway, here's what the Bible says.

Galatians 3:28
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

X is not blasphemous, it has something to do with Latin or something. Fuck I'm tired, look it up.