The whole determinism argument is based on the ground of materialism. Some people thus reason that supposing that materialism is incorrect, then determinism falls apart. Lots of religious people believe that we have souls (non-physical part of us), therefore we must have free will!

NOTE: I don't want to have people here saying things like "There's no such thing as a soul. Everything's physical!" I am only interested in knowing whether causal determinism can still be exist, even if we live in a non-physical world.

Could determinism still be true even if immaterial entities acted upon the material world? Sure, it is possible, but for us we would never know, b/c we can never know the immaterial forces. Therefore, it would appear to us that indeterminism is occurring, or that we are simply not seeing the steps from A-->B in the material deterministic chain.

We create our own reality. If one chooses to live in a deterministic world, so be it.

Materialism, however, is a superstition.

In religious idealism , humans have "free will".

But idealism in a broader sense means "ideas are more real than matter".

This does not necessarily imply free will. Under an Idealist Materialist model of existence, the exchange of IDEAS would affect the minds.

The distortion of the ideas would be systematic in the mind, and they would be exchanged.

Also, the supernatural may be deterministic.

We create our own reality. If one chooses to live in a deterministic world, so be it.

Materialism, however, is a superstition.

This is very true, the saying goes you reap what you sow. If you decide that a deterministic world is what you live in than that becomes your reality.

To follow up on something that Lord. Better Than You had said, this is what the OP said...

Lots of religious people believe that we have souls (non-physical part of us), therefore we must have free will!

I'm not even sure if any religion says that by having a soul you have free will, but if there is please correct me. Having a soul doesn't necessarily mean that you have free will.

I'm no expert in psychology, and forgive me if you consider it a "pseudoscience", but the subconscious is basically what controls your physical actions. The subconscious is supposed to be working outside of normal consciousness, so doesn't that denote a soul of some sort?

Some Protestatnt denominations-- old-time Presbyterians, for one--were big on predestination. Today all the more highly evolved denominations go with free will.

And your subconscious is not related to your essential self, or soul. A lot of actions that people take without conscious thought are the result of programming that resides at the subconscious level.

And your subconscious is not related to your essential self, or soul. A lot of actions that people take without conscious thought are the result of programming that resides at the subconscious level.

Yea that was what I was kind of getting at, even if there is a soul your subconscious still makes lots of your decisions for you without you even being aware of it through its programming, although you can reprogram your subconscious.

The soul is a completly seperate entity from the subconscious level than?

The soul is a completly seperate entity from the subconscious level than?

Well, you know my opinion.

...programming that resides at the subconscious level.

Interesting article (http://www.erowid.org/spirit/metaprogramming/metaprogramming_article1.shtml).

Well, you know my opinion.

Actually Obbe I'd like to hear your view of the subconscious and how it is or isnt connected to the soul.

Of course try to keep within that though, don't want to have you hijacking another thread ;)

Actually Obbe I'd like to hear your view of the subconscious and how it is or isnt connected to the soul.

Of course try to keep within that though, don't want to have you hijacking another thread ;)

Subconscious is just the base of your perception of yourself, ego, how your mind works, etc.

The soul is what experiences the system created.

We create our own reality. If one chooses to live in a deterministic world, so be it.

You are making a BIG mistake.
You equate free will with being able to choose.
Free will is freedom on a metaphysical level.
It's definitely more than just being able to do as you please.
Having free will means that you can also please as you please.

Think about it.
If I am hypnotizing you or doing some sort of mind-control on you that implants in you a strong urge to read this, that means you don't have free will. You are acting as you please, but you don't please as you please. In other words,
you are not acting in accordance to your OWN will.

What fuck this makes me furious.
All that exists is energy, all types of energy. Some energy is positive, some negative, some visible to us, some invisible. Some we can interact with and some we can not. I do not believe in the divine. There is only nature. Some of which we understand, most of which we do not.
Most of the energy that we interact with makes matter. This is our physical world.
This physical world, matter (made from energy) follows rules. These rules are dependable enough that things follow organized patterns. What we observe as science.

Have no doubt in your mind that we live in a predetermined world. But we have the gift of a human mind. Mashing of the senses for the control and sustainability of the cells that compose you. It presents you the challenge of navigating through this world. But apart from this limited control you are at the mercy of the universe.

I think it can be looked at in two ways, and that its a little of both:

Everything that happens to you has impact on the world-line you end up experiencing. A small little event turning out one way could take your life in a completely different direction.

At the same time, theres a lot of other influences affecting the 'consensual' world-line. Think of it as a flowing river, and you are a small part of that river. The small event turning out either way is like sticking a stick in the river. The water flows around it, changes course slightly, but most of the river is unaffected and continues its flow to the same point where it unites with the ocean. We could build a damn, flood a bunch of land, but it will still most likely return to normal flow down stream and exit at the same location.

It would take a huge combined effort to change the place a river flows to. It probably would take a similar effort drastically change the fate of the universe/world.

Not much any human does now will ever have much impact on the outcome of the universe.

What fuck this makes me furious.
All that exists is energy, all types of energy...

Don't want to hear about your materialism rants.

Let's do this hypothetical experiment:
Pretend that there is an alternate world where everything in it is totally non-physical, will causal determinism still apply there?

Don't want to hear about your materialism rants.

Let's do this hypothetical experiment:
Pretend that there is an alternate world where everything in it is totally non-physical, will causal determinism still apply there?

And a totally non-physical world would consist of what for it to even be considered a 'world'? What is there in existence for causality to even be related to? Since no one has ever experienced anything non-physical, I can't imagine how we can even make a thought experiment pertaining to such a conception.

We create our own reality. If one chooses to live in a deterministic world, so be it.

Materialism, however, is a superstition.

In your first sentence: are you saying that if you "choose" not to believe in deterministic laws, such as gravity, then gravity doesn't exist for you, but may to others? Or are you simply saying that you can choose whether or not to connect the causal relationships in your own understanding?

Can you elaborate on how materialism is a superstition please? Also, what is your non-superstitious alternative to it?

Don't want to hear about your materialism rants.

Let's do this hypothetical experiment:
Pretend that there is an alternate world where everything in it is totally non-physical, will causal determinism still apply there?

Looking at another world is fallacious as it does not exist. Though one can imagine the pixies would still not be running things. "God does not play dice."

Can you elaborate on how materialism is a superstition please? Also, what is your non-superstitious alternative to it?

First of all, I use deepak Chopra's definition of superstition--"a belief or fear which is contrary to natural law." Granted, this begs the question of what ocnstitutes "natutal law." I think most sentient beings on this planet who know anything about physics would agree that Einstein's theories have been sufficiently proven to constitute "natural law." And according to that dude, what appears to us--due to our grossly limited sensory apparatus--as solid matter is actually 99.9 or so percent empty space. Furthermore--according to Einstein--matter and energy are interchangeable -- essentially the same thing. And at the quantum level-the teensiest and most basic fundament of reality that anyone has been able to posit--flashes of energy just appear out of the void, interact, and flute off into the void again.

Objective reality is a vast chaotic ocean of energy soup. We ingest tiny bits of this--one billionth of all the data that is available, according to Chopra-- through our senses and covert it into what we think of as reality.

Our personal reality is contingent upon on what we ingest and how we choose to interpret it.