apart from duping billions of people into believing total lies and wild conjecture of idiots?

if anything religion has held back many achievements.

astronomy was supressed by the catholic cult

newton was ridiculed by idiotic christians

there are still people that believe the creationist myth over the fact of evolution

the ammount of times i hear: "but how does a fish become a monkey THERE ARE NO FISHMONKEYS SKELETONS!!!!" or some BS like that it makes me sick.

when are christians going to evolve a fucking brain?!

It's duped billions of people, that's an achievement in itself. Not an achievement for humanity though.

the fact of evolution

It's not a "fact"

-
Our church started teaching people to read and do basic math way back. Motives for that are another matter entirely but still, gotta give them credit for that. The rest of the leadership was content at collecting tax and giving nothing back in return

you should be fair.

that was just an attack on christianity. Why didn't you attack Judaism? or Islam? or Taoism? or any of the dozens of eastern religions???

you should be fair.

that was just an attack on christianity. Why didn't you attack Judaism? or Islam? or Taoism? or any of the dozens of eastern religions???

Probably b/c he lives in a Christian nation like me. Has to watch sexually repressed cunts tell me what bad words I cant hear on TV and the like.

I love pompous 7th grade atheists that make atheism look like a huge joke. Thanks for that, man.

Although I do agree religion has caused much more harm than good... it could be argued that it brought stabilization to regions that had a long history of killing each other. In a sense, religion brought an end to tribalism in Europe, the Middle East, and even Asia. Although the killing between these regions were greatly magnified (ie, Crusades)... for there to be any cultural, technological, scientific, etc improvement... you need stabilization. Look at the various tribes of Sub Saharan Africa. Tribalism holds these people back. Organized, widespread religion was a great unifying force in the civilized world.

It's served it's purpose. The problem is we've outgrown it.

I love pompous 7th grade atheists that make atheism look like a huge joke.



They're kinda like mini-Michael Moore's - having decent and understandable points, but just dressing it up in so much unnecessary, frivolous bullshit that it becomes pulp-like and hard to digest.

I will try to be as unbiased and two sided as possible, though it will be difficult

Positive impacts
- Forms the basis of our morals. Morals separate us from animals. We dont fight to the death over something like a piece of chicken (although some still do. see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bmY2dHhGv0)

-organisations such as Anglicare are based on religions and are focused on helping the needy to improve the lives of the less fortunate

- its given people a sense of closure. sure, it may or may not be real, but that doesnt matter for the people who believe that its better to live in blissful ignorance, which is perfectly fine. this is especially true with things such as death

- there are religious figures who promote a positive message for all humantity of all religions and races, sometimes more so than people who are irreligious. For example, people like Hitler, Stalin and Mao, some of the worst criminals of our century, did not believe in any religion while people like the Dalai lama and Ghandi and even people like Martin Luther king jr (not Martin Luther)are some of the most respected heroes of humanity

negative
-religion in the past and also the present (though it is relatively reduced nowadays) has led to blind violence. some examples include the islamic expansion through arabia in the 7th century, the crusades, and human sacrifice by the aztecs.

-people have been exploited by religion (such as the paying of donations and indulgences to build st peters basilica in rome.) billions of people have been duped because of this.

- Religion has been used as a vehicle for politics due to its ablility for people to trust in it deeply. it annoys me when i see people yelling out "impeach *insert president's name*! hes killing thousands of innocent *insert middle eastern country*! hes a sinner and needs to go to hell!!"

-religions have resulted in a backwards movement in technology. this is evident in the prosecution of Gallileo, shunning of Darwin, as well as things like stem cell research today
----------
Finally, i would like to add that i dont follow a religion, but i do think there are merits to it.

But remember one thing. If youre going to disagree with religion, be sure to give a good bashing to religions in general, and not turn it into a christian flaming feast.

For the sake of argument... and well... because I disagree with your statements, I will form a rebuttal here. I am, slightly intoxicated, so please bear with me as I try to convey the thoughts that are clear in my head, but not down on paper.

I will try to be as unbiased and two sided as possible, though it will be difficult

Positive impacts
- Forms the basis of our morals. Morals separate us from animals. We dont fight to the death over something like a piece of chicken (although some still do. see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bmY2dHhGv0)


So by this logic, the atheist is an immoral creature and an animal? Morality is not something that exists only in the realm of religion. Don't get me wrong, by the definition of morality, the two are going to be closely linked in a person who highly values a deity... but the only statement about religion and morality that can held true, is the fact that religion sets up a system of ABSOLUTE morality... tossing all other, "lesser" moralities out the window. Rather than leaving room for tolerance, placing a moral code HIGHER than life and divine disallows various other moral codes... which i believe should be up to the individual to determine. With that said, religion creates a contagious morality that becomes a very powerful lobbying tool of control, used by a select few in say, the Vatican. And what happens if one comes along and disagrees with this set morality? If somebody comes along and doesn't value the values set stone by Thou Shalt? He is labled a heretic, and for the majority of modern human history, he is burned at the stake. Even today, these people are doomed in the religion mind to burn in hell. This allows ZERO moral tolerance.

Modern Abrahamic religions, were by no means the first to create morality either. I know this is not what you're saying... but the Greeks and Romans had a moral system of their own, (which you could argue, parts of WERE loosely tied into religious ideas)... but the point I'm making is that the Greeks and Romans got by just fine. They had a system of their own, a belief structure and a value system of their own... and in a sense, I would consider these people to be less "animals" than the modern religion that plagues the world.

And with that in mind, don't get your cause and effect confused here. Morality is not the effect of religion, but rather the other way around. For a religion to exist, there has to be a morality that allows this existence. People create religions to fit the morality they already stand upon. For example, once again we'll look at the Abrahamic religions... specifically to roots of Christianity. In ancient Rome we had a VAST majority of slaves and conquered peoples... in a system where the Roman morality valued nobility, strength, etc. This obviously was not going to sit well with such a large population of slaves and people who suffered every day of their lives. So the marketing genius of the millennium comes by and tells these people that there is a larger than life meaning for their suffering, and that they will be eternally rewarded for their suffering in the kingdom of heaven. This life doesn't matter at all, it is merely a stage of hardship to be endured and faithful through, and the real meaning is found post death in the life eternal. Jesus Christ blesses the meek, and the meek, naturally flock to this.

Christianity is a stoic and weak philosophy, directed towards the weak, moral outcasts of the time. These people already were meek. These people already barely valued life. Whether they knew it or not, these people already had a moral system of their own. Christianity just came along and gave them an umbrella to stand under... and a name to call themselves.

I know this is just one example... but I think this can be traced to any modern religion. The morality is always going to precede the religion.


-organisations such as Anglicare are based on religions and are focused on helping the needy to improve the lives of the less fortunate

Yes, and I do not deny that there ARE in fact good hearted Christians out there... who have done more to help the world than I have, and probly more than I ever will. However even the majority of THESE people are doing it for all the wrong reasons. And on top of that... there are HORRIBLE accounts of these aid groups in Africa and South America deliberately not helping those who refuse to follow their faith. I remember reading an article where children in Africa were starving to death, because the nuns there would not feed them until they attended mass... while at the same time the children's mothers would not allow them to attend mass. Why couldn't they just have fed all of the children? Why did some have to starve to DEATH? Philanthropy loses its credibility with occasions like this.



- its given people a sense of closure. sure, it may or may not be real, but that doesnt matter for the people who believe that its better to live in blissful ignorance, which is perfectly fine. this is especially true with things such as death


This I cannot argue... but I have to admit it is something that makes me kind of sick to my stomach.


- there are religious figures who promote a positive message for all humantity of all religions and races, sometimes more so than people who are irreligious. For example, people like Hitler, Stalin and Mao, some of the worst criminals of our century, did not believe in any religion while people like the Dalai lama and Ghandi and even people like Martin Luther king jr (not Martin Luther)are some of the most respected heroes of humanity


I do agree with your first sentence. I find those people rare, but I like those people... even if once again, its for the wrong reasons. However to say people lie Hitler and Stalin and Mao are all "evil" because they are not religious is foolish. There have been hundreds of religious people who have committed horrible crimes against humanity... I'd say far more than these bad atheists. At the same time you cannot make the argument that there haven't been many good atheists... because the truth is there haven't been a whole lot of atheists given the chance to be "good". Religion has held humanity with an iron fist for the last two thousand years... and when anybody who steps out of line is punished for it... when a life without God is inconceivable... atheists aren't going to be left a whole lot of lime light.

If history's greatest individuals were alive today... I feel that they would have very different ideas on faith.


negative
-religion in the past and also the present (though it is relatively reduced nowadays) has led to blind violence. some examples include the islamic expansion through arabia in the 7th century, the crusades, and human sacrifice by the aztecs.


You really believe it's reduced these days? I disagree. Just because we don't march to Damascus with millions of swords does not make religious conflict/violence any less prevalent. Whether its a suicide bombing in Jerusalem, ethnic cleansing in Darfur, flying planes into buildings, etc... I would say today things aren't exactly reduced.


Just my ten cents.

It's not a "fact"


http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x6/Crack_Man07/FacepalmPicard.jpg

I love pompous 7th grade atheists that make atheism look like a huge joke. Thanks for that, man.

Although I do agree religion has caused much more harm than good... it could be argued that it brought stabilization to regions that had a long history of killing each other. In a sense, religion brought an end to tribalism in Europe, the Middle East, and even Asia. Although the killing between these regions were greatly magnified (ie, Crusades)... for there to be any cultural, technological, scientific, etc improvement... you need stabilization. Look at the various tribes of Sub Saharan Africa. Tribalism holds these people back. Organized, widespread religion was a great unifying force in the civilized world.

It's served it's purpose. The problem is we've outgrown it.

You stole my response.....and while the crusades were bloodied, the number of deaths was reduced overall over that period of time.

Dropped the additional rant. That's for another forum.

I'm surprised no one's ever mentioned the countless pieces of art, music, and inventions that are directly correlated to religion. Think of the contributions to our culture based on that fact alone.

I'm surprised no one's ever mentioned the countless pieces of art, music, and inventions that are directly correlated to religion. Think of the contributions to our culture based on that fact alone.

Those contributions are worthless. Really, the Sistine Chapel doesn't mean a fucking thing.

but its pretty

It's brought stability to formerly instable regions. For that it deserves credit. But as for the cultural gains: BULLSHIT. Had we not had religion(s) we would have developed another culture, so religion is not a necessity here, and therefore its great cultural achievements are bullshit. It's served its purpose, we now have stability in our region (Europe) without to many bloody believers. I find the US in that aspect still rather retarded. They are so conservative about everything, which also makes them hypocrites. I mean, preaching no porn for our little kids, birth prevention by simply not having sex. That shit is ancient. Especially when you realise that world's biggest porn industry is housed in the very United States that want to live as sexless as possible. Or at least, they want to look like that.
Religion is at the moment only an obstacle for progression. It makes a lot of (great) things impossible to do, only because someone once wrote a book in the ancient times that it would not be appropriate. I think we should adjust our views to the time we live in, which is per definition impossible if we hang on to a belief. Be it christianity, hinduism or Islam.

It has significantly advanced both military and torture techniques. It did help with the advancement of populous wide literacy, see Guttenberg. Its kept some people in line because the only thing keeping them from murdering their whole village was the thought of hell.

I will try to be as unbiased and two sided as possible, though it will be difficult
[...]
We dont fight to the death over something like a piece of chicken (although some still do. see: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bmY2dHhGv0)

[...]

Good post overall....




There is a watermelon joke in there... sorry couldn't help it.:D

Those contributions are worthless. Really, the Sistine Chapel doesn't mean a fucking thing.

Art as a human expression is irrelevant? :eek:

http://www.masada2000.org/

http://www.masada2000.org/islam.html

http://www.jihadchat.com/index.php?showforum=6

http://www.apostatesofislam.com

http://www.faithfreedom.org

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/index.php

http://www.unitedamericancommittee.org/

http://www.activistchat.com/phpBB2/index.php

http://www.activistchat.com

http://islam-watch.org/CommunityServer/forums/default.aspx

http://islam-watch.org


http://www.justifythis.blogspot.com/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2829059.stm

http://www.islam-watch.org/

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/

http://tinyurl.com/23porv

http://www.shoaheducation.com/muslimnazi.html

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/pages/6-Mein%20Kampf_jpg_jpg_jpg.htm

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/moslem.htm

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

http://atheism.about.com/cs/islamandviolence/

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/08/17/martyr.culture/index.html

http://muslim-quotes.netfirms.com/jihad.html

http://www.domini.org/openbook/home.htm

http://www.persecution.org

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9583

http://www.danielpipes.org/

http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/kafirdomunity/action.htm

http://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/BTaliban/Bangla_Taliban_Photos.html

http://www.bwoi.cjb.net

http://www.chechentruth.cjb.net/

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/

http://www.arabsforisrael.com

http://www.rotter.net/israel/

http://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/Islam.html

http://www.geocities.com/milkmandan2003/TalibanOnline1.html

http://www.truthtree.com/Debating/posts/755.html

http://www.isralert.com/archives/2005/03/deceit_thy_name.php

http://www.factsandlogic.org

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/zakirnaik/zakicaptured.gif

http://www.islamicthinkers.com/index/images/SHIAS_NO_MUSLIM.jpg

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/

http://www.venusproject.com/prophet_of_doom/toc.html

http://www.venusproject.com/prophet_of_doom/quotes1.html#terrorism

http://www.pmw.org.il/

http://tinyurl.com/ydc9qj




According to these links the Quran has been changed over time.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-koran-manuscripts.htm

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter8/3.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/

http://www.jodkowski.pl/re/MBright.html

http://cremesti.com/amalid/Islam/Yemeni_Ancient_Koranic_Texts.htm

---------

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5197

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5237

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5258


"Modern Liberals, With Some Exceptions, Are Fascists. They Preach Peace At The Expense Of Liberty, Diversity At The Expense Of Common Sense, Equality At The Expense Of Fairness And Choice At The Expense Of Life. They Are The First To Speak About Rights, Yet They Seek To Deny You Yours If You Disagree With Them. They Vociferate The Importance Of Free Speech, Yet Do Everything In Their Power To Stifle Yours. They Demonize The Very System Which Allows Them The Freedom To Criticize In The First Place, And They Are The Last People In Line When It Comes To Defending The One Country On Earth That Would Ever Tolerate Their Hypocrisy. They Are Divisive, Immoral And Utterly Incapable Of Understanding Why Everything I Just Wrote Is The Truth." - Edward L. Daley



"Activism is a way for useless people to feel important, even if the consequences of their activism are counterproductive for those they claim to be helping and damaging to the fabric of society as a whole." - Thomas Sowell

“Some of the most vocal critics of the way things are being done are people who have done nothing themselves, and whose only contributions to society are their complaints and moral exhibitionism.” – Thomas Sowell

“A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money.” – G. Gordon Liddy

------------------

http://www.masada2000.org/

http://www.masada2000.org/islam.html

http://www.jihadchat.com/index.php?showforum=6

http://www.apostatesofislam.com

http://www.faithfreedom.org

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/index.php

http://www.unitedamericancommittee.org/

http://www.activistchat.com/phpBB2/index.php

http://www.activistchat.com

http://islam-watch.org/CommunityServer/forums/default.aspx

http://islam-watch.org


http://www.justifythis.blogspot.com/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2829059.stm

http://www.islam-watch.org/

http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/

http://tinyurl.com/23porv

http://www.shoaheducation.com/muslimnazi.html

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/

http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/pages/6-Mein%20Kampf_jpg_jpg_jpg.htm

http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/moslem.htm

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

http://atheism.about.com/cs/islamandviolence/

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/southeast/08/17/martyr.culture/index.html

http://muslim-quotes.netfirms.com/jihad.html

http://www.domini.org/openbook/home.htm

http://www.persecution.org

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9583

http://www.danielpipes.org/

http://www.angelfire.com/hi5/kafirdomunity/action.htm

http://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/BTaliban/Bangla_Taliban_Photos.html

http://www.bwoi.cjb.net

http://www.chechentruth.cjb.net/

http://www.anti-cair-net.org/

http://www.arabsforisrael.com

http://www.rotter.net/israel/

http://www.geocities.com/khola_mon/Islam.html

http://www.geocities.com/milkmandan2003/TalibanOnline1.html

http://www.truthtree.com/Debating/posts/755.html

http://www.isralert.com/archives/2005/03/deceit_thy_name.php

http://www.factsandlogic.org

http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d191/zakirnaik/zakicaptured.gif

http://www.islamicthinkers.com/index/images/SHIAS_NO_MUSLIM.jpg

http://www.prophetofdoom.net/

http://www.venusproject.com/prophet_of_doom/toc.html

http://www.venusproject.com/prophet_of_doom/quotes1.html#terrorism

http://www.pmw.org.il/

http://tinyurl.com/ydc9qj




According to these links the Quran has been changed over time.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-koran-manuscripts.htm

http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter8/3.html

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/

http://www.jodkowski.pl/re/MBright.html

http://cremesti.com/amalid/Islam/Yemeni_Ancient_Koranic_Texts.htm

---------

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5197

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5237

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles.php?article_id=5258


"Modern Liberals, With Some Exceptions, Are Fascists. They Preach Peace At The Expense Of Liberty, Diversity At The Expense Of Common Sense, Equality At The Expense Of Fairness And Choice At The Expense Of Life. They Are The First To Speak About Rights, Yet They Seek To Deny You Yours If You Disagree With Them. They Vociferate The Importance Of Free Speech, Yet Do Everything In Their Power To Stifle Yours. They Demonize The Very System Which Allows Them The Freedom To Criticize In The First Place, And They Are The Last People In Line When It Comes To Defending The One Country On Earth That Would Ever Tolerate Their Hypocrisy. They Are Divisive, Immoral And Utterly Incapable Of Understanding Why Everything I Just Wrote Is The Truth." - Edward L. Daley



"Activism is a way for useless people to feel important, even if the consequences of their activism are counterproductive for those they claim to be helping and damaging to the fabric of society as a whole." - Thomas Sowell

“Some of the most vocal critics of the way things are being done are people who have done nothing themselves, and whose only contributions to society are their complaints and moral exhibitionism.” – Thomas Sowell

“A liberal is someone who feels a great debt to his fellow man, which debt he proposes to pay off with your money.” – G. Gordon Liddy

------------------

can you post anything else besides links and quotes??

Oh I don't know...civili-fucking-zation?

^ Wrong.

For trying so hard... you really made an ass out of yourself. Go home.

Western civilization.

/thread

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x6/Crack_Man07/FacepalmPicard.jpg
??? It is a fact? What are you saying with this humorous picture of Jean-Luc Picard?

in the words of george carlin "religion is the worst thing to ever happen to mankind"

??? It is a fact? What are you saying with this humorous picture of Jean-Luc Picard?

Yes.. Please refer to sickle cell anemia as proof of human evolution.

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x6/Crack_Man07/FacepalmPicard.jpg

Reasonably well supported theories are not "facts", read a dictionary before you cheapen words. It's just as bad as people saying "theory" means "an idea" and only that

Art as a human expression is irrelevant? :eek:

Well as far as societal structure goes, it kinda is

Especially these days when art is simply a way to make big bucks quickly and they just aim to shock people yo get the attention needed. At least the money grubbing music business still provides us with something pleasant unlike the chocolate Jesus statues with visible genitals the "artists" cook up. Well it'd have been tasty but that wasn't the idiot's goal

God I hate people who think the word "culture" stands for something real fancy they can impress their friends with like opera. TV and fast food is culture too, it's just not something to brag about so it's not deemed worthy of the title "culture". Idiots. It's their fault there's people living in the streets lining up for poor quality soup while a movie director gents a large government grant for having done his fucking job. It's their fault government can't afford to pay nurses properly while maintaining theater institution which based on ticket sales does not interest people. What's the point

For the sake of argument... and well... because I disagree with your statements, I will form a rebuttal here. I am, slightly intoxicated, so please bear with me as I try to convey the thoughts that are clear in my head, but not down on paper.



So by this logic, the atheist is an immoral creature and an animal? Morality is not something that exists only in the realm of religion. Don't get me wrong, by the definition of morality, the two are going to be closely linked in a person who highly values a deity... but the only statement about religion and morality that can held true, is the fact that religion sets up a system of ABSOLUTE morality... tossing all other, "lesser" moralities out the window. Rather than leaving room for tolerance, placing a moral code HIGHER than life and divine disallows various other moral codes... which i believe should be up to the individual to determine. With that said, religion creates a contagious morality that becomes a very powerful lobbying tool of control, used by a select few in say, the Vatican. And what happens if one comes along and disagrees with this set morality? If somebody comes along and doesn't value the values set stone by Thou Shalt? He is labled a heretic, and for the majority of modern human history, he is burned at the stake. Even today, these people are doomed in the religion mind to burn in hell. This allows ZERO moral tolerance.

Modern Abrahamic religions, were by no means the first to create morality either. I know this is not what you're saying... but the Greeks and Romans had a moral system of their own, (which you could argue, parts of WERE loosely tied into religious ideas)... but the point I'm making is that the Greeks and Romans got by just fine. They had a system of their own, a belief structure and a value system of their own... and in a sense, I would consider these people to be less "animals" than the modern religion that plagues the world.

And with that in mind, don't get your cause and effect confused here. Morality is not the effect of religion, but rather the other way around. For a religion to exist, there has to be a morality that allows this existence. People create religions to fit the morality they already stand upon. For example, once again we'll look at the Abrahamic religions... specifically to roots of Christianity. In ancient Rome we had a VAST majority of slaves and conquered peoples... in a system where the Roman morality valued nobility, strength, etc. This obviously was not going to sit well with such a large population of slaves and people who suffered every day of their lives. So the marketing genius of the millennium comes by and tells these people that there is a larger than life meaning for their suffering, and that they will be eternally rewarded for their suffering in the kingdom of heaven. This life doesn't matter at all, it is merely a stage of hardship to be endured and faithful through, and the real meaning is found post death in the life eternal. Jesus Christ blesses the meek, and the meek, naturally flock to this.

Christianity is a stoic and weak philosophy, directed towards the weak, moral outcasts of the time. These people already were meek. These people already barely valued life. Whether they knew it or not, these people already had a moral system of their own. Christianity just came along and gave them an umbrella to stand under... and a name to call themselves.

I know this is just one example... but I think this can be traced to any modern religion. The morality is always going to precede the religion.



Yes, and I do not deny that there ARE in fact good hearted Christians out there... who have done more to help the world than I have, and probly more than I ever will. However even the majority of THESE people are doing it for all the wrong reasons. And on top of that... there are HORRIBLE accounts of these aid groups in Africa and South America deliberately not helping those who refuse to follow their faith. I remember reading an article where children in Africa were starving to death, because the nuns there would not feed them until they attended mass... while at the same time the children's mothers would not allow them to attend mass. Why couldn't they just have fed all of the children? Why did some have to starve to DEATH? Philanthropy loses its credibility with occasions like this.




This I cannot argue... but I have to admit it is something that makes me kind of sick to my stomach.



I do agree with your first sentence. I find those people rare, but I like those people... even if once again, its for the wrong reasons. However to say people lie Hitler and Stalin and Mao are all "evil" because they are not religious is foolish. There have been hundreds of religious people who have committed horrible crimes against humanity... I'd say far more than these bad atheists. At the same time you cannot make the argument that there haven't been many good atheists... because the truth is there haven't been a whole lot of atheists given the chance to be "good". Religion has held humanity with an iron fist for the last two thousand years... and when anybody who steps out of line is punished for it... when a life without God is inconceivable... atheists aren't going to be left a whole lot of lime light.

If history's greatest individuals were alive today... I feel that they would have very different ideas on faith.



You really believe it's reduced these days? I disagree. Just because we don't march to Damascus with millions of swords does not make religious conflict/violence any less prevalent. Whether its a suicide bombing in Jerusalem, ethnic cleansing in Darfur, flying planes into buildings, etc... I would say today things aren't exactly reduced.


Just my ten cents.

ugh...what a waste of time your post was.

The guy never said morality was limited to religious people, thus voiding whatever sort of purpose your first shtick had. You then talk about the catholic church. Who the hell mentioned catholic dogma? You also get into the euthyphro dilemma and then make such a mess of ethics and somehow think youve grasped all the reasons why christians became christians, meanwhile skewing history and common sense, and put your own (self styled) umbrella over christians as a whole.

Everyone knows morality came before christianity. Most of us have been inside a grade school history class. Thats like saying sight came before humans. And about the people that wouldnt feed the starving children? Does that mean that all such people (missionaries) are evil or would have done the same thing?

Also, he didnt say mao, stalin, etc. were "evil because they werent religious". He just stated that they were evil, along with the fact that they were against religion.

If historys greatest individuals were alive today they would say that humans, religious and non religious, rich or poor, strong or weak, are still flawed humans.

You are saying there are wrong reasons to do good in the world? Like what, bone marrow giving masochists?

Regarding the lessening of religious impact, in the west this is a definite truth. In the world as a whole you are right, shit is hitting the fan.

Ugh...I feel like writing a treatise dismantling the foundation of the OP's idiocy but...I got shit to do at the moment.

hope.

Islam - preserved Ancient Greek philosophy and medical knowledge, expanding and studying them both, eventually meaning the West was exposed to ideas a tad more complicated than living in a mud/thatch hut and fighting over France.......

Yep, I guess you could say that on some level, the preservation of knowledge by religion then lead to the western renaissance, and the eventual rise of industrial society; indirectly leading to the more secular state.

Now, it's pushing it, but hey.....

In times of turmoil and strife, where power struggles have been problematic in the expansion of the human race. Religion has been able to solidify the masses.

Art as a human expression is irrelevant? :eek:

Sure its pretty to look at, but it accomplishes nothing.

Its pretty to look at, but other than that it serves no use.

Sure its pretty to look at, but it accomplishes nothing.

Its pretty to look at, but other than that it serves no use.

Art makes people happy. How can can it be said to serve no purpose?

Sure its pretty to look at, but it accomplishes nothing.

Its pretty to look at, but other than that it serves no use.

It serves to inspire cultural groups to greater and greater accomplishments. It is hard to imagine the glory of Greece or Rome without the magnificence of their art ... not to mention the science necessary to construct such masterpieces as the Parthenon or Colosseum.

They're kinda like mini-Michael Moore's - having decent and understandable points, but just dressing it up in so much unnecessary, frivolous bullshit that it becomes pulp-like and hard to digest.

I assume you are talking about me. Thank you for saying I have decent and understandable points. You are smart and would "hear" what I have to say without shouting or dressing it up.

In this day and age you have to shout over all the white noise out there to be heard. YOU may know of Michael Moore if he did not dress up his points, YOU MAY, but the world would not. His points, however decent, would not be heard by the majority of the world.

Theists are not rational minded human beings. They are infected with the most virulent meme complex known to man. You cannot whisper and softly tell them that they are in fact the crazy ones. They will not hear you, as is the nature of their particular mind virus.

You have to shout and to ridicule. Make fun of the insanity that is the core of every religion to such a degree that in 50 years theists are ashamed to profess intimate knowledge of the universe they cannot possibly posses. I believe it is a type of cure to this mind virus.

In times of turmoil and strife, where power struggles have been problematic in the expansion of the human race. Religion has been able to solidify the masses.

I would like to argue that religion has been more times than not a direct cause of turmoil, strife and power struggles. They ARE the problem and the solution. This has been and continues to be a VERY lucrative enterprise.

If they solidify the masses too well...the masses may forget turmoil and strife. They may forget about the worst of these things anyway. They may become happy and decent people without the need of a space daddy who wants to party with their ghost forever.

This is taking place today. People are slowly realizing that it is okay to say: "This all seems a little far fetched for me, think I am gonna read a science book now".

Islam - preserved Ancient Greek philosophy and medical knowledge, expanding and studying them both, eventually meaning the West was exposed to ideas a tad more complicated than living in a mud/thatch hut and fighting over France............

For the most part the islamic meme complex has kept the vast majority of these people living in the stone age with a stone age mindset. They do have an infection of the mind almost as bad and if not worse than Christians.

[QUOTE=Mellow_Fellow;8999374]Yep, I guess you could say that on some level, the preservation of knowledge by religion then lead to the western renaissance, and the eventual rise of industrial society; indirectly leading to the more secular state.QUOTE]

They did not preserve this shit. We re-learned it. The church began to lose favor...the bible had been translated into English for the first time in history during this period and you had numerous protestant reformations. A large upheaval of the status quo that was the church.

Renaissance. Rebirth. It was during this time people began to uncover what the church had supressed and hid from the masses. It was during this time we learned the church was COMPLETELY wrong on the placement of the Earth in our solar system and the basic structure of our planet as well as numerous other topics.

When the American pilgrims fled the horror that was the church of England and beat back British rule they decided..........Never again. Never again will church be elevated to a legal governing body. It was this notion that lead to industry and science gaining a true foothold in America. It was this atheistic notion that created America as a superpower and has sustained such a large nation.

Without this Science we could not grow enough food to feed eveyone. We could not heat homes in the winter or have such a vast and awesome empire here. God did not design a freeway on ramp. God did not tell us the mysteries of electricity or computers. God's elite actually suppressed and hid scientific knowledge setting back humanity by untold hundreds possibly thousands of years.

Everytime our ancient supernatural mystical beliefs are cast aside humankind benefits.

God did not bless America..........Science did. God was not allowed to infect the core principles of America. We became the most powerful nation in the history of the world directly because of this.

Science bless America.

Sure its pretty to look at, but it accomplishes nothing.

Its pretty to look at, but other than that it serves no use.

What about a reflection of society?

It seems like your argument is mainly against Christianity. Catholic monks recorded and preserved Classical works. Most people in the middle ages were illiterate so the Church (and the Muslims) are the main reason we still have the Classical works (like the Aeneid) and other old stuff. The Christian had no role in suppressing literacy then so it's not like we would have had some sort of utopic society built upon the principles of scientist and furthering human knowledge if the Church didn't exist.

It seems like your argument is mainly against Christianity. Catholic monks recorded and preserved Classical works. Most people in the middle ages were illiterate so the Church (and the Muslims) are the main reason we still have the Classical works (like the Aeneid) and other old stuff. The Christian had no role in suppressing literacy then so it's not like we would have had some sort of utopic society built upon the principles of scientist and furthering human knowledge if the Church didn't exist.

The Catholic church were the main Christians[ until the reformation brought on Martin Luther due to corruption, and translations into english from the greek and latin texts of the bible. These coincide with the renaissance.

The bold statement in your quote is one made out of COMPLETE ignorance of history, so if you want to google that or look on wikipedia before I tell you how wrong you are go ahead.

I will get you started on your search for the suppression of literacy and knowledge:

Look up William Tyndale the author of the English new testement. See what happens to Mr. Tyndale for translating into English the bible.

I cannot help it if you are unable to accept the fact that religion has supressed scientific pursuits under the penalty of DEATH. I cannot help it that you are unable to accept this held back the natural progression of humankind in relation to society, government, science, technology and medicine. We will never have a Utopia but we may have avoided the black death for example if it were not for christ and the church.

Wanting to suppress knowledge and literacy are two different things. Obviously the Church wanted to suppress knowledge. Knowledge of the Bible might have shown information conflicting with Catholic practices and it supposedly tainted the traditions of the Church. That's not the same thing as suppressing literacy. Most people were illiterate back in the dark ages because of the Catholic church. They were illiterate because they were all farmers who lived in communes in the middle of the country in their isolated societies. Also, if the Church never existed, it's not like their would be Bibles floating around Europe anyway.

I love pompous 7th grade atheists that make atheism look like a huge joke. Thanks for that, man.

Although I do agree religion has caused much more harm than good... it could be argued that it brought stabilization to regions that had a long history of killing each other. In a sense, religion brought an end to tribalism in Europe, the Middle East, and even Asia. Although the killing between these regions were greatly magnified (ie, Crusades)... for there to be any cultural, technological, scientific, etc improvement... you need stabilization.

Religion didn't end 'tribalism' in Europe. It's not like those tribes didn't have a religion before they started practicing Christianity, and Christianity didn't end 'tribalism' in Europe, it didn't even end 'tribalism' in Asia. Islam certainly didn't bring an end to tribalism in the middle east, it exists to this day.

Look at the various tribes of Sub Saharan Africa. Tribalism holds these people back. Organized, widespread religion was a great unifying force in the civilized world.

It's served it's purpose. The problem is we've outgrown it.

Organized religion exists in Sub Saharan Africa including Christianity. There are tribal societies in North Africa as well.

Religion didn't end 'tribalism' in Europe. It's not like those tribes didn't have a religion before they started practicing Christianity, and Christianity didn't end 'tribalism' in Europe, it didn't even end 'tribalism' in Asia. Islam certainly didn't bring an end to tribalism in the middle east, it exists to this day.

Yes... it did. Because it unified a bunch of different tribes, which like you said already had differing religions, and forced them into one big theological system that worked the same way a secular government would. Think of Germanic tribalism going around in raiding parties... Think of groups like the Visigoths... etc, sacking various cities and robbing them for all they were worth. When Christianity came along, all of these kings were unified under one bigger king, the Pope. Christianity as a governing body took control of all of these groups, and literally forced them to get along. Essentially, it did the same thing the Roman Empire did... only reached further than the Romans could ever conquer.

And only a fool would say that the Muslim faith did not significantly damage tribalism in the middle east. Pre Mohammad, the middle east consisted of a bunch of different waring or nomadic tribes... that were always going around killing each other. Mohammad ended this, and unified these tribes. After his death there was an issue, spawning the current rift between Sunnis and Shiites, but to say that the Muslim faith in general did not end widespread mid east tribalism is truly ignorant.

Organized religion exists in Sub Saharan Africa including Christianity. There are tribal societies in North Africa as well.

This is true... but it was never enforced like it was in Europe or the middle east. Hell, by the time Europe scrambled for Africa and spread these ideas... Christianity was practically on its death bed. Specifically when stating this, I was thinking of Sub Saharan tribes in East Africa such as the Turkana and Pokot, Massai, etc. Tribalism there is alive and well, and one can see how a "King of all kings" would end a lot of the conflicts these groups are having.

And yes, North Africa has its share of tribes... but the majority of North Africa is dominated by Islam and is by no means tribal. Think Egypt, Libya, Morocco. This is a very differnt, much more unified Africa than Kenya, Rwanda, Uganda, Tanzania, etc.

It's impossible to accurately analyze the effect of religion as no society has ever existed in a complete religious vacuum. Even atheists have irrational beliefs, it seems to be a necessary part of being human.
How can you judge the importance of anything, any change any person or group of people could ever make is eventually swallowed by the universe and looses all significance.
I don't see how we've outgrown the unifying aspects of religion, now we just have bigger "tribes".
I like the "primitive" pre-monotheistic religion(s) of the Greeks, Egyptians, Mesopotamians etc., unless you're neighbor was some crazy Jew, you probably acknowledged the existence of his god, you still might kill him because your god doesn't like his, a very My God Can Beat the Shit Out of Your God attitude.

It's impossible to accurately analyze the effect of religion as no society has ever existed in a complete religious vacuum. Even atheists have irrational beliefs, it seems to be a necessary part of being human.

You are right about that.

The renaissance however was such an amazing period of learning b/c we started telling religion where to stick it. America carried on in this spirit by forbidding religious interferance in government. America became and still is the most technologically advanced nation in the world.

You are right that we cannot analyze the effects of a society in a religious vacuum b/c none has ever existed but we can analyze the fact that it has been very good and educational the closer we get to a religious vacuum.

It's impossible to accurately analyze the effect of religion as no society has ever existed in a complete religious vacuum. Even atheists have irrational beliefs, it seems to be a necessary part of being human.
How can you judge the importance of anything, any change any person or group of people could ever make is eventually swallowed by the universe and looses all significance.
I don't see how we've outgrown the unifying aspects of religion, now we just have bigger "tribes".
I like the "primitive" pre-monotheistic religion(s) of the Greeks, Egyptians, Mesopotamians etc., unless you're neighbor was some crazy Jew, you probably acknowledged the existence of his god, you still might kill him because your god doesn't like his, a very My God Can Beat the Shit Out of Your God attitude.

Yes... Well I personally would have much rather preferred the spread of these pagan religions that you mention, rather than Christianity. But then again, I don't know. As much as these groups tended to respect each other's sets of beliefs... the rift between the Apollonians in Athens, the cults of Dionysus/Bacchus, and the cults of Isis were just as different as a christian a hindu and a muslim.

And where as I'd tend to agree with you that today we have become much larger tribes as nations. However to ever become larger, learn, grow technologically, etc... we needed some stability from raiding each other, killing each other, etc. I think that if the church still existed as it did in the middle ages, we'd definitely be less tribelike/nation like.

Not saying I would ever... EVER want this. But like stated... religion served its purpose... and is now outdated. We have outgrown it.

Yes... it did. Because it unified a bunch of different tribes, which like you said already had differing religions, and forced them into one big theological system that worked the same way a secular government would. Think of Germanic tribalism going around in raiding parties... Think of groups like the Visigoths... etc, sacking various cities and robbing them for all they were worth. When Christianity came along, all of these kings were unified under one bigger king, the Pope.

The tribes that sacked Rome were all Christians. And of course there were still conflicts between tribes after
they converted to Christianity. Tribes unified into bigger groups, like the franks, but that was for political and economic reasons.
Also, all the Germanic tribes practiced more or less the same religion before Christianity. People weren't divided or fighting each other over religion.


And only a fool would say that the Muslim faith did not significantly damage tribalism in the middle east. Pre Mohammad, the middle east consisted of a bunch of different waring or nomadic tribes... that were always going around killing each other. Mohammad ended this, and unified these tribes. After his death there was an issue, spawning the current rift between Sunnis and Shiites, but to say that the Muslim faith in general did not end widespread mid east tribalism is truly ignorant.


People are still divided into tribes in the middle east today. And there are still conflicts between the different families.
There have even been differences and conflicts between Muslim nations.

Not saying I would ever... EVER want this. But like stated... religion served its purpose... and is now outdated. We have outgrown it.

If we have outdated and outgrown religion was is it so widely practiced in the world today?

Because of peoples weakness in not being able to let go of their precious Gods, and realize we're alone.

But yes. We're living our lives in a transition phase.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i197/wakkosmakka/GoldenRule.gif

All of philosophy. And thought. And athesim. lol.

thread/

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i197/wakkosmakka/GoldenRule.gif

All of philosophy. And thought. And athesim. lol.

thread/

I like the golden rule :)

hope.

are you really saying that without religon we cant have hope?

firstly, hope is for the weak who cant make things happen.

anyway, just because someone doesnt hope there is a god and they will reach salvation doesnt mean the hope is invalid. maybe they simply dont care if their is a god.

if there is a god, it is certainly not worthy of my worship.

also, if there is a god, chances are it had nothing to do with making religon on earth.

if any human religon were absaloutely real, it would be so blindingly obvious to everyone that noone could question is.

are you really saying that without religon we cant have hope?

firstly, hope is for the weak who cant make things happen.

anyway, just because someone doesnt hope there is a god and they will reach salvation doesnt mean the hope is invalid. maybe they simply dont care if their is a god.

if there is a god, it is certainly not worthy of my worship.

also, if there is a god, chances are it had nothing to do with making religon on earth.

if any human religon were absaloutely real, it would be so blindingly obvious to everyone that noone could question is.

Hope is a human idea and accompanying emotion therefore we do not need a religion to experience it. Hope is for the weak? No. What youre saying is "wishing without action" is for the weak. You can hope and do something about it and perservere and put all will and effort into something. Hope does not cause wrong or pain to anyone. With hope we continue each day and each moment and are inspired to walk forward in any endeavor. Why would a God who exists not be worthy of your worship? Prideful much? If there is a God it is implicit that it "had to do" with everything in existence. What is absolutely real and binding is fundamental to all humanity and religion. Ignorance exists, therefore truth is not universally accepted or sought after.

Why would a God who exists not be worthy of your worship? Prideful much?

Why would a God who existed even require worship? Pride, maybe? That doesn't seem very Godlike.

If there is a God it is implicit that it "had to do" with everything in existence.

If being the operative word. Since human existence will (and has been) going on with or without calling God into the equation, why insist that a God is necessary just for existence to happen? Unnecessarily assigning a purpose-driver for what is already a known state either with or without divinity is a HUGE assumption.

Why would a God who existed even require worship? Pride, maybe? That doesn't seem very Godlike.



If being the operative word. Since human existence will (and has been) going on with or without calling God into the equation, why insist that a God is necessary just for existence to happen? Unnecessarily assigning a purpose-driver for what is already a known state either with or without divinity is a HUGE assumption.

God does not "require" worship. What would God require?

A known state? Nope. Tell that to all of philosophy.

God does not "require" worship. What would God require?


So why is he worthy of our worship, like you implied here?

Why would a God who exists not be worthy of your worship? Prideful much?

Hope is a human idea and accompanying emotion therefore we do not need a religion to experience it.

Religion is a human idea and accompanying emotions therefore we do not need science or reason to experience it

.....What youre saying is "wishing without action" is for the weak.....

Wishing without action = Prayer

Why would a God who exists not be worthy of your worship? Prideful much?

A god does not deserve my worship b/c I cannot see, hear, taste, touch, smell, feel, communicate with, or fuck the aforementioned god.

So much for all powerful. Might as well.....you know........NOT EVEN EXIST!!!!

Ignorance exists, therefore truth is not universally accepted or sought after.

Truth is in science. Science is universally accepted among rational minded non-religious human beings. Scientists seek it. Tell us. Religion exists in complete ignorance of the facts.

Religion is a human idea and accompanying emotions therefore we do not need science or reason to experience it



Wishing without action = Prayer



A god does not deserve my worship b/c I cannot see, hear, taste, touch, smell, feel, communicate with, or fuck the aforementioned god.

So much for all powerful. Might as well.....you know........NOT EVEN EXIST!!!!



Truth is in science. Science is universally accepted among rational minded non-religious human beings. Scientists seek it. Tell us. Religion exists in complete ignorance of the facts.

Human beings require reason in every aspect of positivity in their lives. I Acceptance, compassion, humility, courage, all require the use of reason in balancing actions and consequences. It's our gift, though I'm not trying to speak in esoteric terms.

Prayer = Hoping to commune in a myriad of ways with God.

That does not mean that one will pray and do nothing to improve their situation. Anyone who prays and expects everything in return for their idleness is not only immoral but is pathetic.

As for "God" not being part of the immediate senses, if you understand that God is not to be found behind the tree or under the rock but most of all within you, then you will realize God permeates everything in your realm of perception and beyond it.

As far as impotence, if God went around satisfying every whim of every human he would be the antithesis of all that is good. Spirituality is realizing the permanence beyond the impermanece of all the stupid shit such as violence, ignorance, and depravity, and finding the permanence in reason, love, brotherhood, and virtue which always exists beyond the daily illusions we are presented with. Human desires most often stem from human selfishness and, separate us from God and the world around us. Selflessness, the renouncing of the illusory, even if for just a moment, bring us closer to what unifies all of existence and humanity as it is a recognition of that ubiquitous interrelatedness. That which, in my opinion, is the truest form of God.

I could be wrong. I could be completely wrong about many things but I do know this:
Human beings are inevitably connected to each other and the universe by underlying and inexorable fibers. Quantum physics has gone so far as to suggest that everything in existence is of the same "stuff"; innumerable bits of vibrating energy taking different forms based on who knows what principle, but who knows? All I can assume is that if we are all connected in this universe that every idea and every bit of goodness that corresponds to us all, is good for the individual. True faith, sans selfishness, has never been anything but.

Therefore, I hold these truths to be self evident:



http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i197/wakkosmakka/GoldenRule.gif

Hope is for the weak? No. What youre saying is "wishing without action" is for the weak.
different ideas of what "hope" is. IMO hope implies that you dont <i> know </i> something will happen. (you merely <i> hope </i> it) if you have done enough to ensure something will happen to you, you KNOW it will happen. if you have to hope, you havent done enough.

There is know try, there is only do or not do. - yoda (btw, im not a starwars nerd or anything, there are just loads of posters with that kinda stuff in my drama classroom.)


Why would a God who exists not be worthy of your worship? Prideful much?
[/QUOTE]

well, i look around the world, and i dont see anything to praise "god" for. this so-called benevolent god has made it POSSIBLE for us to be cruel. a god who disliked suffering would either give us free will but limit our ability to do the things that make the world a bad place, or not give us free will. giving us completely free will is probably the most cruel thing a god can do.

i dont nesacerily believe we have free will (well, its not possible to say either way) but if we dont have free will, we are being forced to destroy ourselves, what god would do this?

and lets assume the gods intentions were good. it gave us free will out of kindness. and we abused it. and it gave us infinate amounts of chances to redeem ourselves and we didnt. that is what many god believers would argue.

but if you had a sociopath who would probably kill people for no reason in your captivity, would you release them out of kindness? ok, assume you did because even though you think they are likely to cause damage, they havent before. fair enough. and then they DO kill people. do you STILL give them freedom? and even if you do, and they kill MORE people, what then?

now imagine you are like a god, with control over 6 billion of these kinds of people. do you give them all freedom? and do you let them keep it after they abuse it?

i can forgive a god for giving us freedom in the begining. but there is no way i can forgive a god for letting us keep it after we prove we dont deserve it.

maybe the god doesnt have the power to take our freedom away. what kind of a god does not have the power to do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING? a god who creates something it cannot control does not deserve my respect.

did god create us and leave us? maybe it did. but then how can i praise this type of god. maybe the god HAD to leave. in which case, see above arguement.

after considering this, i concluded that IF there is a god, it is not worthy of my worship.

---

If there is a god, it is an evil one. - LaVey

God is dead - Neitzsche

Man is condemned to be free. - Sartre

different ideas of what "hope" is. IMO hope implies that you dont <i> know </i> something will happen. (you merely <i> hope </i> it) if you have done enough to ensure something will happen to you, you KNOW it will happen. if you have to hope, you havent done enough.

There is know try, there is only do or not do. - yoda (btw, im not a starwars nerd or anything, there are just loads of posters with that kinda stuff in my drama classroom.)




well, i look around the world, and i dont see anything to praise "god" for. this so-called benevolent god has made it POSSIBLE for us to be cruel. a god who disliked suffering would either give us free will but limit our ability to do the things that make the world a bad place, or not give us free will. giving us completely free will is probably the most cruel thing a god can do.

i dont nesacerily believe we have free will (well, its not possible to say either way) but if we dont have free will, we are being forced to destroy ourselves, what god would do this?

and lets assume the gods intentions were good. it gave us free will out of kindness. and we abused it. and it gave us infinate amounts of chances to redeem ourselves and we didnt. that is what many god believers would argue.

but if you had a sociopath who would probably kill people for no reason in your captivity, would you release them out of kindness? ok, assume you did because even though you think they are likely to cause damage, they havent before. fair enough. and then they DO kill people. do you STILL give them freedom? and even if you do, and they kill MORE people, what then?

now imagine you are like a god, with control over 6 billion of these kinds of people. do you give them all freedom? and do you let them keep it after they abuse it?

i can forgive a god for giving us freedom in the begining. but there is no way i can forgive a god for letting us keep it after we prove we dont deserve it.

maybe the god doesnt have the power to take our freedom away. what kind of a god does not have the power to do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING? a god who creates something it cannot control does not deserve my respect.

did god create us and leave us? maybe it did. but then how can i praise this type of god. maybe the god HAD to leave. in which case, see above arguement.

after considering this, i concluded that IF there is a god, it is not worthy of my worship.

---

If there is a god, it is an evil one. - LaVey

God is dead - Neitzsche

Man is condemned to be free. - Sartre[/QUOTE]


hope –noun 1. the feeling that what is wanted can be had or that events will turn out for the best: to give up hope.

Its seems we can agree on this definition ^
You say that if we do all we can in our power to cause something to happen then we need not hope because we will be sure of what we want happening.

However, human beings lack 100% control of their reality. We cannot bend time or space or exibit absolute control over even one iota of existence. Nothing in reality is promised to us and thus you are unable to forsee, no matter how much planning and preparation is done, what the full consequences of an action will be.

"The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry" - Robert Burns

Thus, prayer allows human beings to, in a sense, reach out to what is beyond our capability or to implore to the machinations of existence for a certain outcome as it is ultimately beyond our actions, our only option. This in no way suggests weakness or lack of effort. In fact, it suggests the opposite. If you want something utterly and completely you fight, will, act, and hope in every way possible to achieve it. No dimension of effort is left unturned. I would bet that in your lifetime you have sought something so utterly and realizing the instability of it all just prayed and asked or hoped.

Hope in itself however denotes no weakness or lack of character. Imagine yourself as one of the many men who landed on normandy for D-Day. They were all brave, they all fought, and clearly they all wanted to live with all their being. However, all they could do beyond fighting and all physical action... was hope. And they all did. Physical action in itself did not keep them alive in a fray of gunfire and artillery and gore.

As for Yoda, he is absolutely right. We should not try, we should do....within the range of our capabilities that is. Again, no one is all powerful and Yoda told luke to do it because he knew luke was capable. Indeed, all people have the potential to become ten times better than they were.

Now to the real discussion. Let me ask a question in response...who creates evil? It is human beings. Human beings who also have the power to create good, that which is manifest and harmonizing within the rest of the universe. Without evil there is no good. There will always be these extremes. Sin, wrong, evil, are all the cause of human selfishness, not divine ill will. God has given us the greatest gift of all...the ability to leave him. Sin. We have a choice, we are free and any God that would impede that choice is a tyrant.

"Those who would give up liberty for safety deserve neither" - Benjamin Franklin

Regarding that sociopath metaphor it makes the assumption that all human beings are...sociopaths. Or at least innately evil and without good. But the truth is human beings have infinite potential for kindness, gentleness, compassion, and love. And even if these six billion people fall into chaos, destruction, and decadence...it was our choice. What is freedom if it is limited? Then it is not freedom at all. Of course God has the power to do anything, but he will not infringe on our lives is he is not asked. Thats where prayer comes in. He will not take away our freedom. However, I am of the belief that God is always looking out for us and that if we open our eyes enough we can see the little things, coincidences, feelings and such, that open our eyes to the workings of his hands.

So you say we dont deserve it? So you resign yourself to depravity, hate, and destruction? If that is the case get a gun and blow your brains out right now. But you wont. You wont because you know there is that spark of hope, that goodness within you that you can spread throughout the world. Limitless potential for good lies in each human being. You dont speak for the human race in terms of righteousness. There are good people out there.


With this in mind, I hope you see that hubris and hate have no place in talking about God. If you believe in God you can only put yourself at his mercy, if you dont you can only continuously try to justify that belief. Not saying that atheists are wrong or theists are right.

Oh, and by the way, nietzsche didnt mean that God is physically dead or gone, he thought that God was becoming irrelevant. Obviously, he's been proven wrong.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_is_dead

I could be wrong. I could be completely wrong about many things but I do know this:
Human beings are inevitably connected to each other and the universe by underlying and inexorable fibers. Quantum physics has gone so far as to suggest that everything in existence is of the same "stuff"; innumerable bits of vibrating energy taking different forms based on who knows what principle, but who knows? All I can assume is that if we are all connected in this universe that every idea and every bit of goodness that corresponds to us all, is good for the individual. True faith, sans selfishness, has never been anything but.

I am not connected to an asteroid in a galaxy far, far away. I am just not. You do not and CANNOT know that we are all someone mysteriously connected. Same as I CANNOT know what color your eyes are unless you tell me, someone/something else tells me, or I see for myself.

Science will try it's best not to lie to us. It will correct istelf when it is wrong. It has brought our society and civilization farther than any belief in the supernatural ever has.

Why are you people still unwilling to let go of our ancestors ingnorant ways of trying to explain the unknown, and accept science as the PROVEN way to a better world? Religion had it's shot at running things for thousands of years. History will inform you that theism screwed the fucking pooch raw. Religion is done now. Your time has passed. As humans become more intelligent and learn actual truths and facts "God" gets smaller. He now fits inside the gaps in scientific knowledge. As those gaps close he shall shrink even more.

Are you afraid to exist without some benevolant entity that loves you?

I am not connected to an asteroid in a galaxy far, far away. I am just not. You do not and CANNOT know that we are all someone mysteriously connected. Same as I CANNOT know what color your eyes are unless you tell me, someone/something else tells me, or I see for myself.

Science will try it's best not to lie to us. It will correct istelf when it is wrong. It has brought our society and civilization farther than any belief in the supernatural ever has.

Why are you people still unwilling to let go of our ancestors ingnorant ways of trying to explain the unknown, and accept science as the PROVEN way to a better world? Religion had it's shot at running things for thousands of years. History will inform you that theism screwed the fucking pooch raw. Religion is done now. Your time has passed. As humans become more intelligent and learn actual truths and facts "God" gets smaller. He now fits inside the gaps in scientific knowledge. As those gaps close he shall shrink even more.

Are you afraid to exist without some benevolant entity that loves you?

Haha, this everybody is whats called fear of thinking differently. Youre so entrenched in your way of thinking that to simply open your mind to another idea causes massive stress. No big deal but just listen to me for a sec, please.

Yes, you are connected to everything in this universe. You are connected to that asteroid in innumerable ways, some obvious, most subtle. You are both matter. You are both subject to time, space, heat, physics, the forces of motion, and all energy. If you touch that asteriod you will make a connection. A piece of that asteroid may travel millions of years and become a part of the earth that you step on at any given moment or that you see flashing brilliantly through the night sky.

I know we are all connected because uh...many have said and proven it before me. Einstein, Leibniz, Galileo and Newton for example.

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i197/wakkosmakka/compassion2mw3.jpg

How do you measure civilization? If you mean science has brought us farther in technological advancement than religion has you might perhaps be right despite the fact that math and science where all created by religious people. The traditional "wise men". However, if you mean a harmonious, just society where equality and freedom reigns...then we havent been at the peak of civilization since the Golden age of Greece.

That "unwilling to let go of ancestors ignorant ways" statement is pure silliness in light of everything conversed about and made apparent so far. Ignorance of what? Science? Since when has science disproven the fact that there is a reason for spirituality? Never? Exactly. In fact, I feel that the more human beings learn and discover through science the more reason there will be to get in tune with what is beyond us. That which binds us. The only reason you feel God is being left out of spirituality is that God can no longer be seen as this:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i197/wakkosmakka/familyguygod9.jpg

You look at things like the crusades and suicide bombings and decide to blame religion instead of looking at the people and the evils of their actions. How has religion lied to you? Spirituality is your own journey. In the journey of life people will decieve you, whether they be a priest, the president, or your car mechanic. So why is this to blame?:

http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i197/wakkosmakka/GoldenRule.gif

Science itself has never created democracy, freedom, equality, love, compassion, or justice. Why do you feel you should shut your eyes to everything beyond a simple way of understanding the world (empiricism) and finding data? What data has given you a reason to love your neighbor, your enemy, and to treat others as you would want to be treated?

And furthermore...how will experimentation (science) in itself lead to a better world? If you mean innovations will benefit mankind that is sure. If you mean reason should guide mankind I doubly concur.

Sorry, I thought you were saying we are all connected in a metaphysical sense. You mean I can see, touch, feel and interact with the asteriod. You mean to tell me and the asteriod are both made of matter? You sir, have blown my mind.

I hope you are not referring to the theory of everything when you invoke Einstien and Newton. Because it lacks any real substance as of yet.

One might believe Einstien to be a theist by reading your passage. He was not. At all.

Science and math were created by people who wanted to learn the truth about the universe. You cannot attribute math and science to religion. Not after all religions have done to suppress science. I see your flimsy correlation, but ultimately it is a flimsy one. The fact is is that the belief that "God did it" has held back science.

As far as the blame of religion goes I would like to have you read some history books dealing with religion for the past millenium. If you believe the crusades, Inquisition and today's new holy war are not connected directly to and cause by the beliefs found therein...you have deluded yourself completely.

You are once again right. Science did not create love. VERY NICE POINT??? Love is an emotion. Our emotions are responsible for art, creativity (like the invention of religion) and many other amazing things. Emotions are a result of evolution, more specifically brain evolution. Science does show us that.

I do not love my nieghbor. I do not murder him b/c most humans are not pre-programmed killing machines. This has nothing to do with god and has everything to do with human evolution as a social creature. Why don't ants or wolves murder* each other? Because it would be detrimental to the evolved social structure of the species.

I may be stuck in my particular line of thinking. I think you are right. My line of thinking is one of logic and reason, plain and simple. I would rather be stuck here in reality then off on some fantastic voyage where we are all one and my imaginary friend grants me wishes and brings people back to life.



*Notice I said murder and not kill b/c there is a difference.

Sorry, I thought you were saying we are all connected in a metaphysical sense. You mean I can see, touch, feel and interact with the asteriod. You mean to tell me and the asteriod are both made of matter? You sir, have blown my mind.

I hope you are not referring to the theory of everything when you invoke Einstien and Newton. Because it lacks any real substance as of yet.

One might believe Einstien to be a theist by reading your passage. He was not. At all.

Science and math were created by people who wanted to learn the truth about the universe. You cannot attribute math and science to religion. Not after all religions have done to suppress science. I see your flimsy correlation, but ultimately it is a flimsy one. The fact is is that the belief that "God did it" has held back science.

As far as the blame of religion goes I would like to have you read some history books dealing with religion for the past millenium. If you believe the crusades, Inquisition and today's new holy war are not connected directly to and cause by the beliefs found therein...you have deluded yourself completely.

You are once again right. Science did not create love. VERY NICE POINT??? Love is an emotion. Our emotions are responsible for art, creativity (like the invention of religion) and many other amazing things. Emotions are a result of evolution, more specifically brain evolution. Science does show us that.

I do not love my nieghbor. I do not murder him b/c most humans are not pre-programmed killing machines. This has nothing to do with god and has everything to do with human evolution as a social creature. Why don't ants or wolves murder* each other? Because it would be detrimental to the evolved social structure of the species.

I may be stuck in my particular line of thinking. I think you are right. My line of thinking is one of logic and reason, plain and simple. I would rather be stuck here in reality then off on some fantastic voyage where we are all one and my imaginary friend grants me wishes and brings people back to life.



*Notice I said murder and not kill b/c there is a difference.
Ya know broke prophet, not answering my questions and going off into different tangents is a sure way to show that your argument is deteriorating.

With the asteroid, yes. You are both made of matter. Now do you realize the implications of the fact that everything in the universe has a causal relationship? EVERYTHING interacts directly or indirectly with EVERYTHING ELSE. This is the point of the Einstein quote, not that he believed in a guy in a toga in the sky saying "naughty naughty", but that

a) All things are connected within a totality

and

b) Love is the funadamental drive for existence

Ever hear "(God) does not play dice?"
There is always cause my friend. I know einstein wasnt a "christian". Thanks for the history lesson. But he was smart enough to allow himself to observe certain inexorable facts about the universe.

Science and math were definitely created by people who wanted to know the universe. I'm glad we agree. Philosophers, scientists, and spiritualists who were at one time the same thing. This is no flimsy correlation. That is how it was until the spanish inquisition. Have you ever heard of something called alchemy? It is still somewhat practiced today. You saying that God held back science? If youre saying that the roman catholic church took emphasis of of scientific developments and tried to keep people ignorant and sheep like then I definitely agree with you. It was called the dark ages for a reason. However, I do not see how belief in God it itself then makes you an ignorant, science hating stooge.

my class just started...to be continued....

ok, back. To continue:

According to christians the new testament writings of jesus suggest how to carry yourself as a human being. According to 99% of jews a VERY interpretive look at the old testament does the same (you dont have to stone your wife if etc. etc. after all) and no where in the doctrine of either of these contemporary views does it say to kill or maim or harm or otherwise inflict evil for the sake of God. However, certain people in power have decided to use the scripture as justification to do horrible things. IS TEH SCRIPTURE EVIL? IF GODZ IZ REALZ HE MUST BE TEH EVILZ!!

No. Human beings bring about evil. Choice...remember? Whether it be the catholic church, spain, the taliban, "martyrs", or the kid who beat you up in third grade. Human beings have the power to create evil and well as to create good. We can fight what is wrog with the world and further, God does not have a deaf ear. Lets not blame God, or in your view, the non existent God, for the fallacies of human beings. Especially when theyre taking their justification out of a book that warns against judging others.

About love. Love has more definitions than you can shake a stick at as far as "depth, versatility, and complexity" and is definitely said to signify more than a fickle emotion like you speak of. This is observable however it is not testable, the basis of science. So you close your eyes to all other ideas of love until they can hook a machine to a monk while he achieves enlightenment? From a strong affection for a certain food to the selfless all consuming love of your mate to the unconditional, serene, and all encompassing love of the universe. All of them denote the pinnacle factor of human action, selflessness. The recognition that one is part of the whole. That many, together, make one.

You say love is the result of Brain evolution. Sure. Why not? How does that take God out of the equation? But I tell you what a scientist will never do, he will never leave anything within reason out of the question. That is why Im talking to you, because I am able to talk about God and use reason. I dont ask you to believe, thats your choice. I only ask you to listen. To be curious. To look beyond your preconceived notions and definitions.

You do not love your neighbor. Do you think that is a good thing? Do you think it better to love or to not love? You do not have to be a "killing machine" to kill someone. Ever hear of manslaughter? Third degree murder? Self defense? This evolved social structure, how does it refute the notion of God?

Like any human you are at times reasonable and at times not, for different reasons concerning the inner machinations of your psychological homeostasis. I dont read minds, I dont know in what ways you are fucked in the head. We all are though. Opening your mind, observing, questioning, thinking, and feeling is not synonymous with following something blindly. No one asked you to become a missionary. Just ask yourself, is there something beyond what humans can understand by compiling data? Because if there isnt, scientists wouldnt still be working their asses off every day trying to find a clue.

I assume you are talking about me. Thank you for saying I have decent and understandable points. You are smart and would "hear" what I have to say without shouting or dressing it up.

I was referring to the OP. (who consequently started a thread that he didn't bother to revisit, which leads even more credence to the fact that his attention span probably can't hold more than just a few well thought out responses)

I especially disagreed with his tactic of "when are you Christians going to evolve a fucking brain" - as if the excuse for them believing in what we consider fairy tales is somehow forgiveable because they lack certain mental faculties that religious skeptics possess.

While I might have chosen another word other than cunt to describe the holy rollers like you did, your posts usually hold enough meaty explanatory material to even out any derogatory calling-of-names.

In this day and age you have to shout over all the white noise out there to be heard.

Right on. I was once an angry, loud, vocal atheist myself. Then I realized that people were more apt to listen to people they can identify with, people who communicated like them (sans the swearing). It also helped drive home the fact that all atheists aren't the cold, hard, factual robots that lacked sensitivity and congeniality just because they lead a life absent of God.

Theists are not rational minded human beings. They are infected with the most virulent meme complex known to man. You cannot whisper and softly tell them that they are in fact the crazy ones. They will not hear you, as is the nature of their particular mind virus.

You're preaching to the choir on that point :)

Ever read Richard Brodie's Virus of the Mind (http://www.memecentral.com/votm.htm)? His book doesn't specifically target the memetics of religion, but offers some "anti-viral agents" that can be used to help dissuade people from choking on the bait of religious memes hook, line and sinker. Get past the fact that he was Bill Gate's personal assistant during the Microsoft explosion and the original author of Microsoft Word - and it can be an enjoyable read on combating viruses of the mind, written in true layman's terms.

You have to shout and to ridicule. Make fun of the insanity that is the core of every religion to such a degree that in 50 years theists are ashamed to profess intimate knowledge of the universe they cannot possibly posses. I believe it is a type of cure to this mind virus.

That's exactly what Brodie prescribes, minus the ridicule! His main premise:
Consciously spreading ideas you consider important is one way to combat mind viruses.

Consciously spreading ideas you consider important is one way to combat mind viruses.

Fighting fire with fire.

apart from duping billions of people into believing total lies and wild conjecture of idiots?

if anything religion has held back many achievements.

astronomy was supressed by the catholic cult

newton was ridiculed by idiotic christians

there are still people that believe the creationist myth over the fact of evolution

the ammount of times i hear: "but how does a fish become a monkey THERE ARE NO FISHMONKEYS SKELETONS!!!!" or some BS like that it makes me sick.

when are christians going to evolve a fucking brain?!

are you just ignorant? I don't even have to try to come up with a couple easy examples.

1) Catholic schools all over the world, from American private to Latin American
2) The Jesuits are the most effective charity on the planet, taking only 2% of donations for their own needs. Red Cross takes 26%
3) Burma monks protesting their totaltarian government.
4) Gandhi
5) Do you realize that religion/spirituality can actually help people become better people?

stop generalizing. It makes you sound extremely ignorant.

However, I won't deny that organized religion, on the whole, has been mostly negative. But that doesn't mean that all religion is bad.

Fighting fire with fire.

Exactly.