usually im saying something to atheists, but today i have a question for you. if you ask a preacher if god is perfect, then why aren't we? or if god created us, and knows everything, what is the point in him "testing" us? He'll usually speak some nonsense, basically telling you "god tells you not to think about that". How convenient. Your god tells you to not ask questions about the contradictions of your books. And thats all religions other than satanism, wich tells you to embrace "evil".

So if you forget all of that nosense for a second. No matter what religion you are, the only real answer you can come up with for those questions, is that a perfect god could only create something perfect. The universe is a perfect machine, and you are in it. Whatever the hell "god" is, if he's real, the universe is obviously his creation, so there is no good vs. evil bullshit. You're born with what you need to know, and nothing happens on earth that god is against. Taking something we want isn't wrong, it's instinct. Instinct that "god" had to have given you.

I have pondered this and many other questions that just don't make sense. You will not find any answers other than this one: It is all made up in order to gain wealth, power, and social control.

That is the answer to those types of questions as it is the only sensible one. This line of thinking will free one's mind from the most virulent meme complex in human history.

I have another one for you. God is all knowing. ALL KNOWING. This means he knew I would be born millions of years before I was. Knew I would be an atheist. Knew I would go to hell. KNEW IT. Where then is my free will. What is the point of it. If he already knows the end of his game and who is going where (which he HAS to know being omnipotent) why not put everyone in their proper places and be done with it? Why watch humans suffer a moment longer? If someone tells me the end of a football game I probably will not watch it. If everyone knew who would win a boxing match how many seats would they sell?

There are a TON of these questions that have only one answer imo ....... It is bullshit. It is not even good bullshit. The only reason it is here is that it has been brow beaten into humanity under pain of death for two thousand years.

I have pondered this and many other questions that just don't make sense. You will not find any answers other than this one: It is all made up in order to gain wealth, power, and social control. Made up by whom?


I have another one for you. God is all knowing. ALL KNOWING. This means he knew I would be born millions of years before I was. Knew I would be an atheist. Knew I would go to hell. KNEW IT. Where then is my free will..

How does God knowing what will happen mean you don't have free will? His knowing what you're going to do isn't forcing you to do anything.

there is no point in asking such things as "what would a hypothetical god do in this hypothetical situation?"

it simply moves the argument onto the delusionals territory, because all christians would love the chance to say what god would do in such and such a situation, because they are fucking annoying plebs.

i tend to ask the question : "why are you talking like a crazy person"?

fuck them, esp. christians, they are the worst.

The question religious people should ask themselves is 'Why am I foolishly believing in this without question?'.

There is nothing wrong with being spiritual and/or being a theist whom doesn't harm or agitate those who do not believe, or believe in other ways.

But organized religion creates potential for the manipulation of the masses and the abuse of power, and is used for both purposes. People foolishly subscribing to religion need to wake up.

I have pondered this and many other questions that just don't make sense. You will not find any answers other than this one: It is all made up in order to gain wealth, power, and social control.

Sweet Jesus, it's a God-dang conspiracy??

Better strap on my tin-foil hat then...don't want any agents of the G.O.D. patrol reading my thoughts.

Evil exists because people have the choice to do evil.

God could have made us machines incapable of disobeying him, but for whatever reason he chose not to.

Is it fun to play a game you know you will always win?
Do you want to be friends with someone who acts like your servant?
etc....

Evil exists because people have the choice to do evil.

God could have made us machines incapable of disobeying him, but for whatever reason he chose not to.

Is it fun to play a game you know you will always win?
Do you want to be friends with someone who acts like your servant?
etc....

You are so incredibly retarded it's not even funny.

If god made us, he also made those who chose evil - he made that which made them choose evil.

His knowing what you're going to do isn't forcing you to do anything.


Yes it is. It's forcing him to follow what god says he saw. He cannot deviate, he cannot change his mind. No free will.

No. God wouldn't be forcing you to do anything. You can freely change your mind.

If I know you personally and you were making some decision, I could predict what you were going to decide accurately. My knowing what you would do didn't have anything to do with your decision process. Now imagine that an all-knowing God. He could infer, not only your decision, what brought up the situation. His knowing what will happen in the universe does not prevent or make anything happen unless He came and did something that normally wouldn't have happened.

No. God wouldn't be forcing you to do anything. You can freely change your mind.

If I know you personally and you were making some decision, I could predict what you were going to decide accurately. My knowing what you would do didn't have anything to do with your decision process. Now imagine that an all-knowing God. He could infer, not only your decision, what brought up the situation. His knowing what will happen in the universe does not prevent or make anything happen unless He came and did something that normally wouldn't have happened.

There is a huge difference between predicting something and knowing something in advance. If one's actions and decisions are known (as certain fact) in advance by anyone, God or man, then said actions and decisions are pre-destined and set in stone. One would have only the illusion of the ability to decide for one's self.

Also, God is credited with the design and creation of the universe, not just with knowing what will happen. If He designed and created the universe, and knows what will happen, then it follows that everything that happens is by His design. If He did not intend for something to happen in the future, He could simply have designed it otherwise. Therefore, If such a God exists, it was His intention that I (and millions of others) would be atheist, thus condemned (even before the universe was created) to eternal damnation.

There is a huge difference between predicting something and knowing something in advance. If one's actions and decisions are known (as certain fact) in advance by anyone, God or man, then said actions and decisions are pre-destined and set in stone. One would have only the illusion of the ability to decide for one's self.

There is no difference. The only difference is in the degree of certainty. An all knowing God would know 100%. But, if He that certainty was independent of any meddling, there is no destiny. You can decide for yourself, its just that God knows for certain what your are going to do.

There is no difference. The only difference is in the degree of certainty. An all knowing God would know 100%. But, if He that certainty was independent of any meddling,...


He did meddle. He designed and created the universe with the foreknowledge of all that would be, down to the number of hairs on your head and every thought you would think.



...there is no destiny. You can decide for yourself, its just that God knows for certain what your are going to do.

For the future to be known, destiny is a requirement. If the option to change one's mind were to truely exist, then the decision cannot be known until it is made. If God knows for certain what you will decide, you cannot choose otherwise. You cannot change your mind. You simply have the illusion of free will.

I think the whole destiny vs. free will argument is based out of a misunderstanding of God/reality.

Like Forest Gump discovered, its better explained as a mixture of both.

I think the whole destiny vs. free will argument is based out of a misunderstanding of God/reality...

I believe that this is the first time that I agree with one of your posts.(Not with what you meant, but with what you said).

Allow me to clear up the confusion: In reality, there is no evidence of a God.

In reality, there is no evidence of a God.

Reality is evidence of God. Reality is God.

Reality is evidence of God. Reality is God.


I'll not waste my time with you on Reality=God nonsense. You haven't come up with anything that hasn't been hashed over before in this forum.

Reality=God? Thats nonsense!

Whatever you want to believe.

I'll not waste my time with you on Reality=God nonsense. You haven't come up with anything that hasn't been hashed over before in this forum.

It's like Abrahim (remember that guy?), who used the Reality = God theory, except for with a Muslim bent. Obbe seems to borrow more from the Hindu theory of God.

I believe their methods are similar, renaming God as "All" just to make for loads of abstract metaphors and useless direction.

I wonder whatever became of Abrahim? He was a certifiable nutcase, but he usually brought a bit of humor to the table.

I believe their methods are similar...

Hahaha.

Its my belief. Not some lame technique to try and win an argument.

God is all.

...seems to borrow more from the Hindu theory of God.

Actually, Hindu's created their religion based on concepts extremly similar to, if not exactly like my own. And I found the correlations between the two after I already 'discovered' my concept, when I knew nothing of Hinduism.

Not that it matters either way. I know what I know.

I wonder whatever became of Abrahim? He was a certifiable nutcase, but he usually brought a bit of humor to the table.

I still see him on msn sometimes. I believe he's got blogging fever and has traded this forum for a blogspot as his pulpit. His art was really important to him. Believe it or not, he's got quite the artistic bent!


Hahaha.

Glad to see you in a jovial frame of mind, Obbe :)



Its my belief. Not some lame technique to try and win an argument.

I never said it wasn't your belief. I said your method of articulating it is very similar to Abrahim's. I don't believe Abrahim intended to win arguments either, and recognized his belief system as something so apparent that it wasn't even up for any kind of scrutiny by others. To him, it just was. Are you recognizing yourself here a little bit?


Actually, Hindu's created their religion based on concepts extremly similar to, if not exactly like my own. And I found the correlations between the two after I already 'discovered' my concept, when I knew nothing of Hinduism.

Not that it matters either way. I know what I know.

Don't worry Obbe, you'll get full credit for having discovered your own concept/religion whenever it takes hold and catches on and the masses have realized the error in their thinking, having adopted your own ideals. If I'm still around, I'll be one of the first people to suggest that we make a statue in Obbe's honor, giving credit where credit is due.

But like you said, none of that really matters anyway.

I never said it wasn't your belief. I said your method of articulating it is very similar to Abrahim's.

"...just to make for loads of abstract metaphors and useless direction."

Sounds more like you were describing an attempt to win an argument.

To him, it just was. Are you recognizing yourself here a little bit?

Of course, thats how everyone regards their beliefs. Is what you regard to be true, not just true to you, without questioning?

Why bother pointing that out?

Don't worry Obbe, you'll get full credit for having discovered your own concept/religion whenever it takes hold and catches on and the masses have realized the error in their thinking, having adopted your own ideals. If I'm still around, I'll be one of the first people to suggest that we make a statue in Obbe's honor, giving credit where credit is due.

That would worry me, because I would not want the masses subscribing to an organized body of religion, putting themselves and the generations to come at the risk of manipulation and control of an elite.

But like you said, none of that really matters anyway.

Exactly. I know what I know, and everyone else should know what they know as well.

Too bad.

It started as an action to promote social peace between people, but it spun out of control and is now all made up in order to gain wealth, power, and social control.


fixed

fixed

+ 1000

Sweet Jesus, it's a God-dang conspiracy??

Better strap on my tin-foil hat then...don't want any agents of the G.O.D. patrol reading my thoughts.

It is beyond conspiracy. It has been implemented, and its effects are echoed throughout Western History.


See this guy:

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/images/pope-satan.jpg

He is the front man for the richest organization in the world. And at one time, the most powerful, economically and influentially speaking (Middle Ages, Renaissance).

Why the hell do you think he is displayed with such lavish grandeur? It is because the Church wants to say, "We fucking own the world."

By the way, they have quite a few members (membership at the end of 2005 was 1,114,966,000, approximately one-sixth of the world's population [Statistical Yearbook of the Church 2005. Libreria Editrice Vaticana. ISBN 978-88-209-7928-7.])

Bankers' best guesses about the Vatican's wealth put it at $10 billion to $15 billion (Time Magazine).

What kind of fucking "religion" needs $10 billion?

What kind of fucking "religion" needs $10 billion?

A big, fat, asshole one.

No. God wouldn't be forcing you to do anything. You can freely change your mind.


You are not understanding the rules.

Here are the rules:

God is infallible. Never wrong.

God is all-knowing. Omnipotent.

Let's say god knows that you are going to Hell and God is not wrong.

You decide to live a noble and Godly life and ask Jesus to forgive you thus by the rules getting into heaven...God is wrong = FAIL. This CANNOT happen.

Which means....
You go to Hell no matter what choices you make. NO FREE WILL.

But my main point is........if he knew before the universe even existed who all would go to heaven and who would go to hell........what's the point in playing out the game? Snap your fingers already and the chips fall where you already know they are going to.

It is difficult to even think about the concept of a force as powerful as a God. It is not logical. It is not rational. It is not reasonable. It makes no sense to the rational mind.

Evil exists because people have the choice to do evil.

Evil is a label you give actions YOU do not agree with. Good and Evil are subjective to a number of different variables.

Do you want to be friends with someone who acts like your servant? etc....

Do you serve God? By doing so you get into Heaven to hang out with your imaginary friend for grown-ups right? Be his friend?

God cleary demands servitude before you can be his friend in Heaven. Do I know more than you about your religion?

You are not understanding the rules.

Here are the rules:

God is infallible. Never wrong.

God is all-knowing. Omnipotent.

Let's say god knows that you are going to Hell and God is not wrong.

You decide to live a noble and Godly life and ask Jesus to forgive you thus by the rules getting into heaven...God is wrong = FAIL. This CANNOT happen.

Which means....
You go to Hell no matter what choices you make. NO FREE WILL.
But that's not how it works. If God knew you were going to hell, he also knew that it was because of the actions you would choose on Earth, not because he wanted to send you there on a whim.

But my main point is........if he knew before the universe even existed who all would go to heaven and who would go to hell........what's the point in playing out the game? Snap your fingers already and the chips fall where you already know they are going to.
I do agree with here if we're assuming Christian God.

It is difficult to even think about the concept of a force as powerful as a God. It is not logical. It is not rational. It is not reasonable. It makes no sense to the rational mind.
Does the universe suddenly existing seem logical? That there was nothing and then all of a sudden everything?
Or that it has been around forever with no beginning or end? What about quantum physics?

There is no difference. The only difference is in the degree of certainty.

And that degree of certainty would allow one to be wrong (you, or the person "predicting"), and another one to be always correct (the person/being with foreknowledge), hence, a humongous difference.
If you know the future, for a fact, then I cannot change my mind:

If, between choices A1, A2, A3, A4... An, you know I'm going to choose A5, then when confronted with that choice, I must ultimately choose A5. I cannot change my mind. I cannot uiltimately decide to choose A1 or A2. Like it or not that's not free will, that's predetermination.

Does the universe suddenly existing seem logical? That there was nothing and then all of a sudden everything?
Or that it has been around forever with no beginning or end? What about quantum physics?

No it does not. I make no absolute claims of truth about how it came into being. Therein lies the essential difference between an atheist and a theist.

Speculation is that the Universe is eternal and goes through a big bang and a big crunch. Creationism still calls for an eternal god. Why not an eternal Unviverse? Both lack evidence enough to be accepted as true. God lacks ANY evidence whatsoever.

More speculation would be that the universe is sucked up by black holes and the matter enters another dimensional universe through a series of white holes. When the white holes funnel into one point in this new universe and all matter is sucked out of the old one......Big Bang.....followed by a repeat of this eternal cycle.

Of course there is no real evidence for the above statement and I make NO claim that it is right. Certainly not enough to burn a non-believer alive at the stake. I am just supposing an alternative as equally likely as a God.

The fundamental difference between creationism and big bang is this: It is much nicer to think an all powerful entity is benevolent and loves you than to think of simple cold dark eteternal space time and then theism is a route to wealth, power and social control.

No it does not. I make no absolute claims of truth about how it came into being. Therein lies the essential difference between an atheist and a theist.

Speculation is that the Universe is eternal and goes through a big bang and a big crunch. Creationism still calls for an eternal god. Why not an eternal Unviverse? Both lack evidence enough to be accepted as true. God lacks ANY evidence whatsoever.

More speculation would be that the universe is sucked up by black holes and the matter enters another dimensional universe through a series of white holes. When the white holes funnel into one point in this new universe and all matter is sucked out of the old one......Big Bang.....followed by a repeat of this eternal cycle.

Of course there is no real evidence for the above statement and I make NO claim that it is right. Certainly not enough to burn a non-believer alive at the stake. I am just supposing an alternative as equally likely as a God.

The fundamental difference between creationism and big bang is this: It is much nicer to think an all powerful entity is benevolent and loves you than to think of simple cold dark eteternal space time and then theism is a route to wealth, power and social control.
I was hoping for this answer ;)

No matter what religion you are, the only real answer you can come up with for those questions, is that a perfect god could only create something perfect.

Erm, no. Thats just a wrong statement.

"no matter what religion you are". You assume that every religion believes in a single, perfect god. Or perhaps multiple gods who are perfect. Once again, no.

Free will and all-knowing God are both real.

Free will and all-knowing God are mutually exclusive.



Fixed

This message is hidden because Obbe is on your ignore list (http://www.totse.com/community/profile.php?do=editlist).

Fixed.

Free will and all-knowing God are mutually exclusive.

Actually, thats just a misunderstanding.

I have another one for you. God is all knowing. ALL KNOWING. This means he knew I would be born millions of years before I was. Knew I would be an atheist. Knew I would go to hell. KNEW IT. Where then is my free will.

How is knowing something taking away your free will? It would only be removal of your free will if you were forced into that role.

But as a general rule, I agree there are alot of questions religions kind of scoot away from. Or they hide behind, "He works in mysterious ways" or "He is always right and good".

If God knew you were going to hell, he also knew that it was because of the actions you would choose on Earth, not because he wanted to send you there on a whim.

It doesn't matter how he knows it. He knows it.

If you know the future, for a fact, then I cannot change my mind:

If, between choices A1, A2, A3, A4... An, you know I'm going to choose A5, then when confronted with that choice, I must ultimately choose A5. I cannot change my mind. I cannot uiltimately decide to choose A1 or A2. Like it or not that's not free will, that's predetermination.

You can do whatever you want to do. There isn't a "must". There is no compulsion. Foreknowledge and compulsion are two different things.

You can do whatever you want to do. There isn't a "must". There is no compulsion. Foreknowledge and compulsion are two different things.

Wrong.

Again, if from choices A1, A2, A3... An, your god says I will choose A5, then when the time comes, I must ultimately choose A5. I cannot choose anything else.

To put it more formally:

1. An infallible, omniscient, being exists. [Assumption]

2. This being has foreknowledge that from a set of events denoted A1, A2, A3... An respectively, event 'A5' will occur. [Definition of omniscience. Point 1]

3. 'A5' must occur. [Definition of infallible. Point 1]

4. I cannot choose to do any action which would make it so that 'A5' does not occur. [Points, 1, 2, 3]

5. I lack free will. [Point 4]

Wrong.

Again, if from choices A1, A2, A3... An, your god says I will choose A5, then when the time comes, I must ultimately choose A5. I cannot choose anything else.

To put it more formally:

1. An infallible, omniscient, being exists. [Assumption]

2. This being has foreknowledge that from a set of events denoted A1, A2, A3... An respectively, event 'A5' will occur. [Definition of omniscience. Point 1]

3. 'A5' must occur. [Definition of infallible. Point 1]

4. I cannot choose to do any action which would make it so that 'A5' does not occur. [Points, 1, 2, 3]

5. I lack free will. [Point 4]

His omniscience allowed him to know what would occur. That knowing is not making it happen. I know that 2+2=4, but my knowing that for absolutely certain is not the reason for it. My knowledge is separate from the cause.

Being all-knowing is an observatory position.

His omniscience allowed him to know what would occur. That knowing is not making it happen.

Whatever makes it happen is not the issue. Knowing (with infallible certainty) that it will happen excludes the possibility of any other outcome. The exclusion of any other possible outcome requires predestination. Predestination eliminates free will.Thus, you have only the illusion of free will.

I know that 2+2=4, but my knowing that for absolutely certain is not the reason for it. My knowledge is separate from the cause.

Being all-knowing is an observatory position.

It matters not who(God or man) has knowledge of future events, If the occurance of future events can be known in advance (with 100% certainty), said event must occur. One may make the decisions which lead up to said event, but in reality, he cannot make any choice which could alter the outcome. Thus, his perceived ability to choose is an illusion.

Whatever makes it happen is not the issue. Knowing (with infallible certainty) that it will happen excludes the possibility of any other outcome. The exclusion of any other possible outcome requires predestination. Predestination eliminates free will.Thus, you have only the illusion of free will.
God doesn't choose for you. You choose for yourself. His knowing had no bearing on your choice. Am I wrong? How exactly does knowing something force something to happen?


It matters not who(God or man) has knowledge of future events, If the occurance of future events can be known in advance (with 100% certainty), said event must occur. That knowledge didn't make it happen.

One may make the decisions which lead up to said event, but in reality, he cannot make any choice which could alter the outcome. Thus, his perceived ability to choose is an illusion. Except for the fact that he had the ability to choose.

God doesn't choose for you. You choose for yourself. His knowing had no bearing on your choice. Am I wrong? How exactly does knowing something force something to happen?.

Can you have destiny and free will?

If God KNOWS what is going to happen then my life in God's eyes is predestined. There is nothing I can do to change the outcome.

For example:

God knows I will die on a certian day. Call it death day.
Somehow I find out my death day as well.
Can I change the day of my death with this knowledge? NO. God is infallible.

Another example would be sin:

God knows when I will sin. He knows I will steal a candy bar when I am 14 years old.
I find Jesus at age 12 and learn that stealing is a sin.
Can I use the teachings of Jesus to NOT steal that candy bar. NO. God is infallible.

In any case, God knows what the end game is. He knows who burns and who gets to party with him. What is the point?

Christianity is not even a good sensible lie even if one ASSUMES God to be real.

His omniscience allowed him to know what would occur. That knowing is not making it happen.

Answer the question: Can I make it so that A5 does not happen?

If I cannot, then I do no have free will. It means the outcome of the future is set in stone to coincide with the god's foreknowledge, regardless of who "made it happen", and that is definitely not free will.

Here is one thing that no atheist has ever explained to me. If there isn't a God then who created the universe ? How did the the universe start? Something HAD to have started it. If you believe in the "big bang theory" then what started the bigbang? anyway you look at it someone/something had to start everything.

Here is one thing that no atheist has ever explained to me.
And? If there isn't a definite explanation for something, "God did it" is the winning answer?

Atheists once couldn't answer what caused thunder either. "Thor did it" was the default answer for many but that didn't make it the correct one.

Here's (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html#firstlaw) a start for you regarding what we do know.

Here is one thing that no atheist has ever explained to me. If there isn't a God then who created the universe ? How did the the universe start? Something HAD to have started it. If you believe in the "big bang theory" then what started the bigbang? anyway you look at it someone/something had to start everything.

1. Not all atheists claim "there is no god". You can admit the possibility of there being a god, and still be an atheist (what philosophers usually call "weak-atheist").

2. Who says we must explain anything? I don't know what "started the Big Bang" or what made it possible in the first place, if anything did. Saying "I don't know" is intellectually honest. Not knowing and then claiming that it's true that god did it, is not.

When an atheist answers this question he, usually, provides an idea that he knowingly admits could be proven wrong in the future. He admits it's a theory (be it in the formal or layman's definition of "theory"). He does not claim, as so many theists do, that their answer (i.e. "god did it") is absolutely true.

3. Who "created" god? Nobody? How can he exist without being "created"? He just can? Then what's stopping us from saying the universe can just exist without being "created"? Nothing.

Here is one thing that no atheist has ever explained to me. If there isn't a God then who created the universe ? How did the the universe start? Something HAD to have started it. If you believe in the "big bang theory" then what started the bigbang? anyway you look at it someone/something had to start everything.

Why?

Why is it okay to assume an intelligence (God) that is eternal and NOT okay to simply assume an eternal universe?

You have to assume something is eternal...either god or the universe. Since god has NO evidence the only logical thing to do for now is assume the universe is eternal since the universe DOES have evidence for it's existence.

Here is where science gets FAR more interesting than theism....

Scienctists have proposed parrallel universes into which our black holes will eventually filter all matter into. The parrallel universe has white holes which funnel the matter into a point. After all matter from our verse into this one..........BOOM.......big bang. Wash, Rinse repeat. Eternal universe.

That is just ONE theory but it has things far more sound in it than "God did it".

God knows I will die on a certian day. Call it death day.
Somehow I find out my death day as well.
Can I change the day of my death with this knowledge? NO. God is infallible.
That has nothing to do with free will, or very little anyway. You could die in a nuclear holocaust on that day, or get hit by a bus. That's God being a kid with a magnifying glass. In other words: outside forces beyond the choices you make affect the world as well.

God knows when I will sin. He knows I will steal a candy bar when I am 14 years old.
I find Jesus at age 12 and learn that stealing is a sin.
Can I use the teachings of Jesus to NOT steal that candy bar. NO. God is infallible.
Its not that you can't, it's that you won't. If you were going to use the teachings of Jesus not to steal, then you wouldn't do it. Remember that you said God would have to know all. Why would he know that you would find Jesus and follow his teachings and then sin two years later? The way you describe it makes it sound like God would take over your body and make you steal it even though you didn't want to.

Here's a hypothetical situation for you:
Say you visit the future with a time machine and see that I will type this response. Does that mean it has been set in stone that I will do it and have no free will about it?
In any case, God knows what the end game is. He knows who burns and who gets to party with him. What is the point?
Agreed here though.

Answer the question: Can I make it so that A5 does not happen? Yes, since no one is forcing you to choose A5.

If I cannot, then I do no have free will. It means the outcome of the future is set in stone to coincide with the god's foreknowledge, regardless of who "made it happen", and that is definitely not free will.
There are two separate actions. The future happenings, and God's knowledge of them. God didn't set the future in stone to coincide with anything.

Yes,

Wrong. That contradicts point 3. A5 must happen. I cannot do anything to make it not happen. Try again.


There are two separate actions. The future happenings, and God's knowledge of them. God didn't set the future in stone to coincide with anything.Again, that's irrelevant. I'm not saying anyone "made it happen". If A5 must happen, I lack the free to make it so that it does not happen. The future is set in stone. It must happen as the god foresaw it. Nobody can change anything, nobody can choose to do (or not do) something different.

Multiple world lines, multiple more dimensions then we are aware of.

Scenario:

Steve calls me a name.

I decided to kill Steve. I go to jail. I suffer while in jail, and curse at God for knowing of, allowing and creating such atrocities.



On another branch off of the name-calling moment...

I decided to not kill Steve. I do not go to jail, live a good life, and thank God for such a wonderful destiny. However, I am still bitter I was called a name. Why-oh-why would God created me to suffer such?



On another branch, before the name-calling incident...

Steve decides to not call me a name. What a great God to have created such a possibility!


All these possibilities exist within God, God 'knows' and 'creates' all of them, and as God, we have the free will to choose which possibility will be our 'next' position (based on the probability of our current position, or course).

An omniscient God would know your future actions in all possible dimensions/planes. Predestination would apply to all of them, thus , no free will.

Try again.

Sweet Jesus, it's a God-dang conspiracy??

Better strap on my tin-foil hat then...don't want any agents of the G.O.D. patrol reading my thoughts.

Learn history.

Wrong. That contradicts point 3. A5 must happen. I cannot do anything to make it not happen. Try again. Except the knowing part has nothing to do with the "must"

Again, that's irrelevant. I'm not saying anyone "made it happen". If A5 must happen, I lack the free to make it so that it does not happen. The future is set in stone. It must happen as the god foresaw it. Nobody can change anything, nobody can choose to do (or not do) something different.
The future isn't set in stone because God saw it. You can choose whatever you want. God seeing you do it isn't why. There is still the choice

Except the knowing part has nothing to do with the "must"

If he knows the future, then he knows what events will transpire. A5 is one of those events. A5 must happen. I cannot make it so that it cannot happen.

Either refute that or stop wasting everybody's time.


The future isn't set in stone because God saw it. You can choose whatever you want. God seeing you do it isn't why. There is still the choiceThe future is set is stone. Period. You keep adding "not because god made it happen" or "not because god saw it", because you want to weasel yourself out of the problem, and it's getting tedious, not to mention pathetic.

God has foreknowledge. The future is set in stone, and it must coincide with that foreknowledge. Nobody can change it. Nobody can make it so that A5 does not happen.

God doesn't choose for you. You choose for yourself. His knowing had no bearing on your choice. Am I wrong? How exactly does knowing something force something to happen?

But how can you choose to do something against what God predicts? If God predicts that I'm going to do one thing and I choose to do another thing, then he must have known that I was going to make this choice. So it's impossible for us to make a choice that God doesn't predict.

God created the Universe and set in motion all the events that he knows will happen.

Rust, if someone doesn't understand what you are saying, don't just repeat it, try and put it a different way.

If he knows the future, then he knows what events will transpire. A5 is one of those events. A5 must happen. I cannot make it so that it cannot happen.

Either refute that or stop wasting everybody's time.
He did refute it. You going around in circles with the same argument isn't wasting everyone's time?

You can't change what choices you made yesterday, but that doesn't mean you didn't have free will. An omniscient god can see the future just as clearly as He saw the past. He knows what choices WILL be made.

Yes, I know your rebuttal is, "but if you can't change your mind between now and later, you don't have free will".

Bullshit! You can change your mind all day long. A god just knows what YOUR choices will be as clearly as you know what your choices were yesterday. Since they are YOUR choices He sees, free will is not stopped. Foreseeing the future does not take away free will (if it even exists).


The future is set is stone. Period. You keep adding "not because god made it happen" or "not because god saw it", because you want to weasel yourself out of the problem, and it's getting tedious, not to mention pathetic.
Funny, those of us on the other end of the argument may see your repeated answer as tedious and pathetic, but you're bringing it up is nothing more than an inability on your part to not have the last word. We heard you; you gave your argument. Your frustration from not being able to change minds is your problem.

If he knows the future, then he knows what events will transpire. A5 is one of those events. A5 must happen. I cannot make it so that it cannot happen.
You keep trying to link God's knowledge to why thinks happen. They are two separate things. No line of logic can connect the two.
God's knowledge of something is not what sets something in stone. If I observe something happening in front of me, my observation had nothing to do with that, just as if I observe something in the future, my observation has nothing to do with it, as those events had nothing to do with my observing them.

[QUOTE}
God has foreknowledge. The future is set in stone[/QUOTE]
Those are two different things that have nothing to do with each other. You would've made the same decision whether God knew about it or not.

You keep trying to link God's knowledge to why thinks happen. They are two separate things. No line of logic can connect the two.
God's knowledge of something is not what sets something in stone. If I observe something happening in front of me, my observation had nothing to do with that, just as if I observe something in the future, my observation has nothing to do with it, as those events had nothing to do with my observing them.

I am not connecting or "linking" both at all. I have not said that "god made it happened" as I've explained to you numerous times. That's you making things up.

I said "God has foreknowledge. The future is set in stone". That is it. If I were to say: "Apples are red. Apples are tasty." Am I, with those two sentences, saying that apples are red because they are tasty (or vise versa)? No. I'm stating two facts (well them being "tasty" is an opinion but that's besides the point): They are tasty and they are red . Whether one happens because of the other (I never said it did), is another point all together.

The fact of the matter is, if an omniscient god exists then:

1. The god has foreknowledge of the future.

2. The future coincide with that foreknowledge. That is, the future must play out as the god saw it.

3. The future being set in stone is not synonymous with free will.

You would've made the same decision whether God knew about it or not.

I will do something... but I have the free will not to? :rolleyes: That makes no sense.

As soon as I MUST do something, I lack the free will not to. This isn't the "must" you parents used to get you to clean your room, where it means you really can choose not to but you'll get in trouble. This "must" means I absolutely cannot choose any other choice.

He did refute it. You going around in circles with the same argument isn't wasting everyone's time?

I'm repeating myself because he keeps evading my points and making shit up. I never once said "god made it happened" but he keeps, very dishonestly I should point out, trotting that out in a pathetic attempt to save his argument.


You can't change what choices you made yesterday, but that doesn't mean you didn't have free will. Changing what has already happened makes no sense. They are not comparable in the least.


Bullshit! You can change your mind all day long. A god just knows what YOUR choices will be as clearly as you know what your choices were yesterday. Since they are YOUR choices He sees, free will is not stopped. Foreseeing the future does not take away free will (if it even exists).Wrong. I cannot change my mind to deviate from what god foresaw.

Again:

1. An infallible, omniscient, being exists. [Assumption]

2. This being has foreknowledge that from a set of events denoted A1, A2, A3... An respectively, event 'A5' will occur. [Definition of omniscience. Point 1]

3. 'A5' must occur. [Definition of infallible. Point 1]

4. I cannot choose to do any action which would make it so that 'A5' does not occur. [Points, 1, 2, 3]

5. I lack free will. [Point 4]


Prove that I can ultimately make it so that A5 does not happen (i.e. make it so that A1 happens instead), if god foresaw it (i.e. A5) happening. Either do so or admit that you cannot.

We heard you; you gave your argument. Your frustration from not being able to change minds is your problem.No, my frustration stems from people not answering the problem at hand, from people breaking basic rules of logic and reason, and from people making shit up.

There have been Christians here on totse with a lot more integrity, honesty and intelligence than either of you who have admitted the illogical nature of omniscience and free will. xtreem being one of them.

I have not said that "god made it happened"




1. God has foreknowledge, according to you.

2. The future must coincide with that foreknowledge
You are saying God made it happen if it's the future that must coincide with that foreknowledge.

Think about it the other way. It's the foreknowledge that must coincide with the future for the foreknowledge to be accurate.


You would've made the same decision whether God knew about it or not.
Maybe others can think about it this way (assuming free will exists):

Hypothetical scenario:

We all agree that free will exists and that no supernatural entities exist. A psychic is born who is never wrong and sees the future perfectly. Does free will suddenly cease to exist? No. Everyone is making their choices and can change their minds all they like, a person just knows what CHOICES WE make before the fact instead of after the fact like the rest of us. The choices are ours, he just knows what they'll be.

You are saying God made it happen if it's the future that must coincide with that foreknowledge.

Wrong.

I'm stating two facts, that follow from the premises he has taken as true.

If I state that apples are red and that apples are tasty, does that mean I'm stating that apples are red because they are tasty? Absolutely not. I've merely made two statements.

Whether apples are red because they are tasty or for some other reason, is another thing.

So again:

A god has foreknowledge [this follows from the definition of omniscience]. The future must coincide with that foreknowledge [If the future didn't coincide with the foreknowledge, then the god wouldn't have known the future in the first place].


Think about it the other way. It's the foreknowledge that must coincide with the future for the foreknowledge to be accurate. ... Of course. Who said otherwise? If the foreknowledge didn't coincide with the future, it wouldn't be accurate. Great. I agree. If the foreknowledge wasn't accurate, it wouldn't be knowledge in the first place!


Does free will suddenly cease to exist? No. Yes. As soon as he or she "sees" the future, we lack the free will to deviate from that future. That is not free will.

If the psychic magically sees Team A winning the championship, can Team A lose the championship on purpose when the big game comes up? No. Can they choose to forfeit? No. Can they choose to play badly? No. They must and will win, no matter what. They lack the free will to choose to do something that makes it so that they lose the game.

Changing what has already happened makes no sense. Changing what has not, does. They are not comparable in the least.
They are comparable when you see that one who sees the future accurately is the effectively the same as seeing the past. You can't change what choices you made yesterday and you can't change what choices you WILL CHOOSE.



Wrong. I cannot change my mind to deviate from what god foresaw.
No, you can change your mind all you want. A god would just make the right predictions on YOUR CHOICE. You can't deviate from what gos saw because He saw YOUR CHOICE.



Again:

1. An infallible, omniscient, being exists. [Assumption]

2. This being has foreknowledge that from a set of events denoted A1, A2, A3... An respectively, event 'A5' will occur. [Definition of omniscience. Point 1]

3. 'A5' must occur. [Definition of infallible. Point 1]
A5 must occur just as everything that happened yesterday must have already occurred. SOMETHING must occur. God just sees these things in advance. The choices are still ours.

I understand what you're saying. You're saying that changes can't be made once God makes up his mind as to what WILL happen. We get it.

You're not getting that this god sees the future just as accurately as the past. If YOU decide to make choices, He sees those to.


Prove that I can ultimately make it so that A5 does not happen, if god foresaw it happening. Either do so or admit that you cannot.
You ultimately have to make a choice; that's all that matters. He sees YOUR choice in advance. You can't change what you chose yesterday, and you can't change what choice YOU'LL make tomorrow after the fact. God just sees what after the fact is in advance. I don't see what's so hard to get.

Yes. As soon as he or she "sees" the future, we lack the free will to deviate from that future. That is not free will.

If the psychic magically sees Team A winning the championship, can Team A lose the championship on purpose when the big game comes up?
Can they lose on purpose when the game was played yesterday? No. Does that take away free will? No.

The psychic merely sees tomorrow as we see yesterday. The choice the football team makes is theirs; the psychic sees it in advance.

They are comparable when you see that one who sees the future accurately is the effectively the same as seeing the past. You can't change what choices you made yesterday and you can't change what choices you WILL CHOOSE.

If I "WILL CHOOSE" something, I have no free will! If free will exists, you can't know what I "WILL CHOOSE", since I must have the ability to choose something else.


No, you can change your mind all you want. A god would just make the right predictions on YOUR CHOICE. You can't deviate from what gos saw because He saw YOUR CHOICE.

If I can change my mind, I could decide something other than what god saw. I cannot, thus I cannot ultimately change my mind.

Here's an analogy:

God sees the future. He then writes down on a piece of paper what he saw (i.e. whether he saw A1, A2, A3... or An happen). When the time comes, can I choose something that is different from what god wrote down? No. I cannot change my mind to something that is different from what he saw.



A5 must occur just as everything that happened yesterday must have already occurred. SOMETHING must occur. God just sees these things in advance. The choices are still ours.


If A5 must occur, then I lack the free will to change that. I cannot choose to do something which makes it so that A5 does not happen.


You're not getting that this god sees the future just as accurately as the past.

I'm getting that just fine. It's because he sees it so accurately that there would be no free will. We would lack the free will to do something that deviates from what he saw.


You can't change what you chose yesterday, and you can't change what choice YOU'LL make tomorrow after the fact. God just sees what after the fact is in advance. I don't see what's so hard to get.

I don't see what's hard to get either, which is why I'm astonished to see that you still don't understand.

If I cannot change my mind, then I have no free will. That's the point. I must be able to change my mind for there to be free will. Having to choose A, and not being able to ultimately change my mind to B, is not free will. Period.

Can they lose on purpose when the game was played yesterday? No. Does that take away free will? No.

Yes it does. For free will to exist, no choice must be final; I must have the ability to change my mind. My choices cannot be constrained to just one (i.e. what the being saw). That's not free will.

If I "WILL CHOOSE" something, I have no free will!
Wrong. the word 'choose' already denotes free will. You will choose something or nothing at all (which is still a choice).


If free will exists, you can't know what I "WILL CHOOSE", since I must have the ability to choose something else.
Of course you can choose something else. As an accurate psychic, i just know what choice YOU will make of your own free will.


If I can change my mind, I could decide something other than what god saw. I cannot, thus I cannot ultimately change my mind.
I went through this already, but I have a feeling this is more about getting in the last word.

Can you choose to change what choice you made yesterday? No. A god sees later just as we saw before.

Here's an analogy:

God sees the future. He then writes down on a piece of paper what he saw (i.e. whether he saw A1, A2, A3... or An happen). When the time comes, can I choose something that is different from what god wrote down? No. I cannot change my mind to something that is different from what he saw.
Same thing I just said. You write A1 and then show me what you wrote. Can you change that you wrote it? No. God sees the future like I saw evidence of the past. Choices are yours, He sees the future accurately.




If A5 must occur, then I lack the free will to change that. I cannot choose to do something which makes it so that A5 does not happen.
It's not that A5 must occur. It's that an accurate psychic sees what occurs in advance. This can happen regardless of free will existing.



If I cannot change my mind, then I have no free will.
You can change your mind all day long. A psychic can see those changes in advance.

Yes it does. For free will to exist, no choice must be final; I must have the ability to change my mind. My choices cannot be constrained to just one (i.e. what the being saw). That's not free will.
Some choice will end up being final whether or not free will exists and whether or not you decide to change your mind all day long. You're choice is confined to one because only one choice can be made, not because the predictor is not allowing you to make changes.

Wrong. the word 'choose' already denotes free will. You will choose something or nothing at all (which is still a choice).

You using that word doesn't make it true. I can call it "shit" and say "the word shit already denotes feces" but that doesn't mean it's true.


Of course you can choose something else. As an accurate psychic, i just know what choice YOU will make of your own free will.

No, I cannot choose something else, because that would contradict what you originally saw.



Can you choose to change what choice you made yesterday? No. A god sees later just as we saw before.

How a god sees it is irrelevant. It changes nothing since my argument does not rest on how a god does or does not "see it".

Moreover, like I already explained, the two are not comparable in our context (not god's). We cannot change the past. That is not the case in for the future - which we must be able to affect for there to be free will.



Same thing I just said. You write A1 and then show me what you wrote. Can you change that you wrote it? No. God sees the future like I saw evidence of the past. Choices are yours, He sees the future accurately.

That's not the same thing at all.

If god wrote down A5, then I cannot change my mind and ultimately choose something else (e.g. A1). When the time comes I must choose A5. That is not free will.


It's not that A5 must occur. It's that an accurate psychic sees what occurs in advance. This can happen regardless of free will existing.


Yes, it is that A5 must occur. If A5 didn't occur, then the psychic didn't see my future! If the psychic saw A5 happening, then it must happen. That is not free will.


You can change your mind all day long. A psychic can see those changes in advance.

Yet I cannot change what she ultimately sees! That's what I've been trying to explain! If she writes down A5 (i.e. what she ultimately saw happening, after she saw me change my mind X number of times) then when the time comes I must choose A5. I cannot ultimately choose something else; I cannot change my mind the day I experience that choice. That is not free will.

Some choice will end up being final whether or not free will exists and whether or not you decide to change your mind all day long. You're choice is confined to one because only one choice can be made, not because the predictor is not allowing you to make changes.

I am definately not allowed to make changes (by her, by her knowledge, by whatever), after she's written something down in the paper, because if I do make changes after she's written down something in the paper, a contradiction emerges.

So no. I cannot make all the changes I want. I cannot change my mind after she has written something down. I cannot ultimately change my mind.

You're choice is confined to one because only one choice can be made

That's not free will! Free will is not synonymous with being confined to one choice!

You using that word doesn't make it true. I can call it "shit" and say "the word shit already denotes feces" but that doesn't mean it's true.
You calling shit feces doesn't make it true. The fact that evidence points to shit being feces makes it true.



No, I cannot choose something else, because that would contradict what you originally saw.
It can't contradict what I saw because that would contradict me being an accurate psychic. That does not mean at all that the choice wasn't all yours and free.




How a god sees it is irrelevant.
No, it's totally relevant.



It changes nothing since my argument does not rest on how a god does or does not "see it".
That's what your argument is all about. :confused:



Moreover, like I already explained, the two are not comparable in our context (not god's). We cannot change the past. That is not the case in for the future - which we must be able to affect for there to be free will.
You really don't get it or are just being stubborn. God can see the future as accurately as we see the past. The two are comparable because of this supernatural power!





That's not the same thing at all.

If god wrote down A5, then I cannot change my mind and ultimately choose something else (e.g. A1). When the time comes I must choose A5. That is not free will.
Yeah, it is the same thing. It's not that you can't change your mind because God wrote down A5, it's that God wrote down A5 because he saw that you wouldn't CHOOSE to change your mind. He sees it as I saw it after it happened.



Yes, it is that A5 must occur. If A5 didn't occur, then the psychic didn't see my future! If the psychic saw A5 happening, then it must happen. That is not free will.
It must happen because we have determined that the psychic is always accurate. This means he accurately saw in advance what you will CHOOSE of your own free will. He is not stopping you from changing your mind nor is any other force. He just saw in advance that you won't choose to change your mind.



Yet I cannot change what she ultimately sees! That's what I've been trying to explain! If she writes down A5 (i.e. what she ultimately saw happening, after she saw me change my mind X number of times) then when the time comes I must choose A5. I cannot ultimately choose something else; I cannot change my mind the day I experience that choice. That is not free will.
YOU CAN CHOOSE WHATEVER THE FUCK YOU WANT!

The psychic sees the future accurately! That Is the only power involved! If you decide to change your answer to something else, then the psychic would have written down something else. The psychic writes A5 because he sees that as your ultimate choice.

Saying that you must choose A5 or you can't choose something else because it's already written down is inaccurate. You can choose to, the psychic just knew in advance that you wouldn't.

That's not free will! Free will is not synonymous with being confined to one choice!
An accurate psychic existing is not confining you to anything.

An accurate psychic existing is not confining you to anything.

Now you're resulting to the same tactic Zman did.

I never said what was confining me. You said my choice would be confined. It would be. Me being confined to one choice - aka no choice at all as there are no alternatives to choose from - is not synonymous with free will (note I'm not saying what does the confining).

[EDIT: I deleted my previous response to not make this even more tedious than it already is. This post is closer to getting to bringing the discussion to conclusion, so please reply to it. I'm sorry if you were in the middle of replying to the other one.]

Thanks for making my point. That I said "choose" and "choose" would imply a choice does not make it true. It was just a word choice, one that does not magically make something true.
If that was your point it was a lousy and inaccurate one. I never said that me saying something magically makes it true. 'Choose' denotes free will. Try to argue against that point if you like, but this 'magically true' bullshit is just that. Bullshit!




Great. We agree. If I cannot ultimately change my mind, I am ultimately constrained to that choice. It is not "free" because I am ultimately constrained to it.
I didn't say you couldn't change your mind, but nice try. I said that it couldn't contradict what the psychic predicted. Not because you can't change your mind, but because he sees the future accurately.



It's not relevant because my argument doesn't hinge on how he sees things. He can see the future just as he sees the past, he can see it differently. Neither refutes my point.
It's relevant because you claim that once an omniscient being exists free will ceases to exist. It absolutely hinges on how he sees things.




No. My argument is as I've already posted:


1. An infallible, omniscient, being exists. [Assumption]

2. This being has foreknowledge that from a set of events denoted A1, A2, A3... An respectively, event 'A5' will occur. [Definition of omniscience. Point 1]

3. 'A5' must occur. [Definition of infallible. Point 1]

4. I cannot choose to do any action which would make it so that 'A5' does not occur. [Points, 1, 2, 3]

5. I lack free will. [Point 4]

In fact, the idea that the god sees the future just as accurately as we see the past is already implied in premise 1. The god in question being omniscient and infallible means his foreknowledge is 100% accurate. You finding a analog in the way we see the past, changes nothing.
Like repeating yourself? Me too. Lets play this game all day long.

A5 doesn't have to occur. It occurs because free will made the choice and a god sees it as accurately as I see yesterday.




"Not choosing to change my mind" is a choice in and of itself, which would be included in the variable A5. The same applies to it. If he saw that I chose not to change my mind, then I cannot choose to change my mind in the end.
Nope. You could change your mind. He sees in advance that you choose not to.

You write down a number and show it to me and I'll get your number right every time. If I can see the future as a past event, I'll get it right in advance, including all of the last minute changes you make. I don't take away your free will nor does any other mysterious force.





If she writes down A5 then I cannot change my mind the day of the choice. A5 must happen. As you yourself said, my choice is constrained to one: no choice at all. I lack the free will at that point to make it so that A5 does not happen.
I'll just copy and paste at this point:

It must happen because we have determined that the psychic is always accurate. This means he accurately saw in advance what you will CHOOSE of your own free will. He is not stopping you from changing your mind nor is any other force. He just saw in advance that you won't choose to change your mind.


Now you're resulting to the same tactic Zman did. Pathetic.

I never said what was confining me.

You said, "Free will is not synonymous with being confined to one choice!"

If it's not the existence of a psychic is not what's confining you to one choice, what is?

If you never said what was confining you, what was this all about?:


Yes. As soon as he or she "sees" the future, we lack the free will to deviate from that future.

I
You said, "Free will is not synonymous with being confined to one choice!"

If it's not the existence of a psychic is not what's confining you to one choice, what is?

I don't have to know or say what is. If someone is dead, must I know who killed him to know he is dead? No. Whether John killed him, Joe killed him, Mary killed him, or he died of natural causes, the fact is he is still dead.

Whether the psychic confined my choice or not, the fact is my choice is confined. I ultimately have no choice, and that is not synonymous with free will.


If you never said what was confining you, what was this all about?:

I already explained this to you:

"If I state that apples are red and that apples are tasty, does that mean I'm stating that apples are red because they are tasty? Absolutely not. I've merely made two statements.

Whether apples are red because they are tasty or for some other reason, is another thing. "

If you want another analogy: Let's say that you are sitting in front of me in a class room. Every time the teacher says "Hi", I slap your head with my hand. Could someone say"As soon as the teacher says 'Hi', you head is slapped"? Yes. That is true. Does that mean that he is saying that the teacher is hitting you in the head? No. He has just stated a fact. Whether it's the teacher hitting your head, or me, or something else, is another thing.

Same thing here. As soon as the psychic writes something down, my choices are constrained. Whether it's the psychic doing the constraining or something else that is unknown, is another point all together.

If I am constrained to one choice, then I have no choice at all. There are no other alternatives. I must choose A5. That is not free will.

P.S. I deleted the post you just replied to while you were making your reply. I thought I could delete it before you wasted your time replying to it, because I'm not going to respond to that reply. It's getting bogged down in too much bullshit. Sorry for that. Please continue to reply to this.

People believing in both free will and a God makes me want to pull out my hair in frustration...

People believing in both free will and a God makes me want to pull out my hair in frustration...

Me too. This thread was very hard to read.

Saying that you must choose A5 or you can't choose something else because it's already written down is inaccurate. You can choose to, the psychic just knew in advance that you wouldn't.

You are saying the psychic knows that I'm not going to change my mind, even though I can.

Or more accurately for this discussion: God knows that I'm going to decide on one thing, even though I can decide on any number of things. But that's an oxymoron, if I'm not going to, then I can't.

Some choice will end up being final whether or not free will exists and whether or not you decide to change your mind all day long. You're choice is confined to one because only one choice can be made, not because the predictor is not allowing you to make changes.

Yes, we can all agree with this statement? This is good progress.

Although, we have to stop discussing this: "not because the predictor is not allowing you to make changes". We all agree with it. Having no free will does not mean God is deciding for us. That's for a different thread.

God knows that I'm going to decide on one thing, even though I can decide on any number of things. But that's an oxymoron,
There's no oxymoron. Do you know what an oxymoron is?


if I'm not going to, then I can't.
That is not a logical conclusion. There are lots of things I'm not going to choose to do. That does not mean I couldn't.

There's no oxymoron. Do you know what an oxymoron is?

You're right. What I meant is, that doesn't make sense, it's paradoxical.

That is not a logical conclusion. There are lots of things I'm not going to choose to do. That does not mean I couldn't.

Well then, go ahead. Do something that you aren't going to... You can't.

You're right. What I meant is, that doesn't make sense, it's paradoxical.
You're saying this is paradoxical:

"God knows that I'm going to decide on one thing, even though I can decide on any number of things."

What's paradoxical about an omniscient being knowing what choice out of many you will make?

There's no paradox there.




Well then, go ahead. Do something that you aren't going to...
Where did I write that I can do something and also not do it?

You wrote:

"God knows that I'm going to decide on one thing, even though I can decide on any number of things. But that's an oxymoron, if I'm not going to, then I can't."

What I stated regarding the last part where you said, "if I'm not going to, then I can't."

That is not a logical conclusion. There are lots of things I'm not going to choose to do. That does not mean I couldn't.

How does, "if I'm not going to, then I can't" make any sense? Not going to do something does not equal can't do something.

How does, "if I'm not going to, then I can't" make any sense? Not going to do something does not equal can't do something.

He means "not going to" according to the psychic or the god. As in "Do something the psychic says you're not going to". He is saying that because, for free will to exist, we must have choices. Since you've already admitted that we are ultimately constrained to one choice, we ultimately do not other choices. Just only one thing that must happen. That is not free will. Period.

Since you've already admitted that we are ultimately constrained to one choice, we ultimately do not other choices.
I said you were constrained to making one choice in that only one scenario will play out, not that you couldn't choose another.


Just only one thing that must happen.
The one thing that must happen is based on what you choose. The psychic's prediction is based on the choice.


That is not free will. Period.
You using that word doesn't make it true. I can call it "shit" and say "the word shit already denotes feces" but that doesn't mean it's true.

Not going to do something does not equal can't do something.

So you're saying you CAN do something you aren't going to do?

I said you were constrained to making one choice in that only one scenario will play out, not that you couldn't choose another.

Backpedaling to save face isn't going to help your case. It only makes your argument look worse than it already does.

Once they write something down we cannot do anything that deviates from what is written. Not being able to deviate - not having an alternative - is being constrained to a specific and only "choice" and that is not free will.


The one thing that must happen is based on what you choose. The psychic's prediction is based on the choice.That supposed "choice" is no choice at all because I am constrained to one possible outcome in the end. I must follow what they have written down, and cannot deviate. That's no choice.


You using that word doesn't make it true. I can call it "shit" and say "the word shit already denotes feces" but that doesn't mean it's true.You're right. It's the fact that it doesn't agree with the definition of free will that shows what I said is true. I'm glad we agree.

So you're saying you CAN do something you aren't going to do?

Way to pay attention there, joecaveman. :eek:

Way to pay attention there, joecaveman. :eek:

Why do you say that? He is technically right. If the psychic has deemed that he will not do X (and she is not mistaken), can he do it? No, he cannot. That's the point.

Backpedaling to save face isn't going to help your case.
Don't pull that bullshit on me; I'm not doing any backpedaling.




We are constrained to one choice as you said. Once they write something down we cannot do anything that deviates from what is written. Not being able to deviate, not having an alternative, is not free will.
Okay, I'll repeat myself.

Once they write something down, they have seen the future. They have seen what CHOICE you will DECIDE to make on your own. The psychic knows that you will not deviate from having made that final choice; it's not that you couldn't.




That supposed "choice" is no choice at all because I am constrained to one possible out come in the end.
We're all constrained to one outcome, but not one possible outcome.

If it's not a choice, what is it?


I must follow what they have written down, and cannot deviate. That's no choice.
No No No!

They must follow what YOU will freely choose! They see the future accurately.



You're right. It's the fact that it doesn't coincide with the definition of free will that means it is true. I'm glad we agree.
We aren't agreeing, dumbass.

Why do you say that? He is technically right. If the psychic has deemed that he will not do X (and she is not mistaken), can he do it? No, he cannot. That's the point.

Rust, look over what joecaveman's argument was.

Rust, look over what joecaveman's argument was.


Am I missing something? What's wrong?

Scraff said: "There are lots of things I'm not going to choose to do. That does not mean I couldn't".

Which is switching from future tense to past tense and should instead be written as:

"There are lots of things I'm not going to choose to do. That does not mean I can't".

I'm replying with: "So you're saying you CAN do something you aren't going to do?"

What am I missing?

They must follow what YOU will freely choose! They see the future accurately.

I think I see what you're saying. All my decisions have already been made, by myself.

Don't pull that bullshit on me; I'm not doing any backpedaling.

You most definitely are, which is why, I suspect, you hadn't replied to my post in the first place. You didn't want to result to it.


Once they write something down, they have seen the future. They have seen what CHOICE you will DECIDE to make on your own. The psychic knows that you will not deviate from having made that final choice; it's not that you couldn't.And once again I'll explain to you that that still means I cannot ultimately change my mind when that they comes, thus I lack the free will to change my mind. They can see me "change my mind" X number of times, but never after they've written the future down. After that I cannot deviate from what is written. My choice is constrained to what they wrote down.

Either prove that I could deviate from what they have written down, or admit that you cannot. If I cannot deviate from what they wrote down, then my choice is constrained.


If it's not a choice, what is it?A choice is having the ability to pick one of various alternatives. In this case, I wouldn't have the ability to pick from various alternatives, there are no alternatives. Two different things.


They must follow what YOU will freely choose! They see the future accurately.Yes, they see the future accurately, which is why I must do what they wrote down! If I didn't do what they wrote down, they wouldn't have been accurate in the first place, they would have been wrong! Since they can't be wrong, I must do what they wrote down!

So yes, I do have to do what they wrote down.



We aren't agreeing, dumbass.We don't have to, this isn't up to debate. That's how it is defined. Whether you want to accept it or not is irrelevant.

Rust, look over what joecaveman's argument was.

Sure thing.

joecaveman said:

"You are saying the psychic knows that I'm not going to change my mind, even though I can.

Or more accurately for this discussion: God knows that I'm going to decide on one thing, even though I can decide on any number of things. "

In other words, joecaveman is asking how I can do something the psychic (or the god) have determined I'm not going to. That's a valid question. I couldn't do something if they've determined I'm not going to. That's the whole point.

That supposed "choice" is no choice at all because I am constrained to one possible outcome in the end. I must follow what they have written down, and cannot deviate. That's no choice.



To add just a little to what Scraff wrote:

The psychic doesn't cause any power to come into existence once he writes his prediction. The choice is yours. What you keep asking is, "Can you choose a number other than what the psychic writes down after he writes it?"

That's a misleading question. As has been said, it's not that you can't choose a number other than that number, it's that it's the number you end up choosing is known in advance. Not forced upon you, just known.

He writes down the number because he sees the future through some miraculous power. You keep saying that he doesn't stop you from choosing it, but you can't have it both ways. If he isn't stoppoing you, and no other force is, your free will is intact. A psychic exists that can what will choose to write instead of what you did write like the rest of us.

As has been said, it's not that you can't choose a number other than that number,

No, that is exactly it. I cannot choose a number other than that number. That is undeniable.

it's that it's the number you end up choosing is known in advance. Not forced upon you, just known.

That's the point, you can't "know" what I will "choose" if I have free will. If free will exists, then what I "will choose" must remain a mystery until the day of the choice.

If somebody knows the future, then our lives play out like actors in the cinema. We must follow exactly what they saw, no matter what. We cannot deviate, we cannot do something different. If they make a clone copy of the universe and play it side-by-side with this universe, they will both play out exactly the same. That is not free will.

You keep saying that he doesn't stop you from choosing it, but you can't have it both ways.

Huh? Where did I say this? What do you mean?


If he isn't stoppoing you, and no other force is, your free will is intact. A psychic exists that can what will choose to write instead of what you did write like the rest of us.

Something is stopping me. I cannot change my mind. Ultimately, no matter what, I must choose what she wrote down. I cannot change my mind and choose something else the day of the choice.

Am I missing something? What's wrong?

Scraff said: "There are lots of things I'm not going to choose to do. That does not mean I couldn't".

Which is switching from future tense to past tense and should instead be written as:

"There are lots of things I'm not going to choose to do. That does not mean I can't".

I'm replying with: "So you're saying you CAN do something you aren't going to do?"

What am I missing?
What you're missing is that he never said he's going to do something he isn't going to do. What he said was there are plenty of things he's not going to do, that doesn't mean he couldn't have chosen differently.

That was in response to your saying the following is paradoxical:

"God knows that I'm going to decide on one thing, even though I can decide on any number of things."

I don't see the paradox either. You can decide on any number of things, yet he sees the future. He doesn't force you to pick this or that.



I think I see what you're saying. All my decisions have already been made, by myself.
I think that's a fair way to look at it.

Look at this example:

I videotape you deciding to write a number from 1 to 100 on a piece of paper and then showing what number you wrote. Every time I watch this, I can predict what number you wrote because you can't change you're mind at this point. Of course that doesn't mean you couldn't change your mind before you wrote it.

Now I'm God. I have the power to see what's going to be on this videotape in advance. Does that mean I forced it on you? No. Does that mean some other force is stopping you from having free will? No. All it means is that I can see the future. Without a force to stop you from having free will, how could free will possibly be stopped? It can't. Seeing the future accurately does not negate free will.

Now I'm God. I have the power to see what's going to be on this videotape in advance. Does that mean I forced it on you? No. Does that mean some other force is stopping you from having free will? No. All it means is that I can see the future. Without a force to stop you from having free will, how could free will possibly be stopped? It can't. Seeing the future accurately does not negate free will.

If god sees into the future and knows the contents of the tape, then the contents of the tape cannot vary. When that day comes, you must decide to make a tape, you must decide to make it just as that god saw it, and you must decide to write that the number he saw.

Look at this analogy. I know the future. You play in a baseball team (Team A). I saw you winning the game next week. When next week comes, and you're at the game, can you decide not to play? Can you decide to kill yourself? Can you decide to play awfully so as to make your team lose? No. It means you aren't making a choice at all, no matter how much it may look like it. You're following a script, a script that coincides with what I saw perfectly.


I just love how you guys think you've resolved a problem that has plagued theology for centuries and stumped the best minds in the world, by just saying "you did choose!" :rolleyes:

No, that is exactly it. I cannot choose a number other than that number. That is undeniable.
Only it's been denied many times, so claiming it's undeniable is just another one of your dishonest tactics.



That's the point, you can't "know" what I will "choose" if I have free will. If free will exists, then what I "will choose" must remain a mystery until the day of the choice.
It's getting old, Rust. A psychic with real powers does not mean some force is choosing something for you. If no other force than yourself is making that choice, free will exists.


If somebody knows the future, then our lives play out like actors in the cinema. We must follow exactly what they saw, no matter what.
If that somebody can force people what to do, then yes.

If, however, the only power that someone has is seeing choices made before they are made, then no. You mustn't do what he sees, he must accurately see what you will choose to do.


We cannot deviate, we cannot do something different. If they make a clone copy of the universe and play it side-by-side with this universe, they will both play out exactly the same. That is not free will.
Again, as has been said, we also can't deviate from past decisions. The psychic merely sees the future, not plans or makes it. He sees what you will choose to do.



Huh? Where did I say this? What do you mean?
You said, "I'm not saying anyone "made it happen" at least once.


Something is stopping me. I cannot change my mind. Ultimately, no matter what, I must choose what she wrote down. I cannot change my mind and choose something else the day of the choice.

Explained in my previous post. And in many other posts. Do you want to just keep repeating the same argument and see who gives up first?

If god sees into the future and knows the contents of the tape, then the contents of the tape cannot vary.
And the content of a tape of the past can't vary either. That doesn't mean choice of free will weren't made.


When that day comes, you must decide to make a tape, you must decide to make it just as that god saw it, and you must decide to write that the number he saw.
I'll keep repeating myself also.

If god gave you free will, he must see it just as you will decide to do it, not that you must do what he saw. If you must do what he saw, then you are saying some force forced you.


Look at this analogy. I know the future. You play in a baseball team (Team A). I saw you winning the game next week. When next week comes, and you're at the game, can you decide not to play?
Explained already. If next week I decide to play, you can't see the future any differently if you indeed can see the future. If I decide not to, you would have seen it differently.


I just love how you guys think you've resolved a problem that has plagued theology for centuries and stumped the best minds in the world, by just saying "you did choose!"
What's more loveable is how you resolved a problem "that has plagued theology for centuries and stumped the best minds in the world".

Only it's been denied many times, so claiming it's undeniable is just another one of your dishonest tactics.

Well you're right. You can deny it, sure. You denial would just be false. I can deny that 2+2 =4. But that's not up to debate. 2 + 2 = 4, whether you agree with it or not.

If you are saying I could have chosen a different number from the one the psychic wrote down, the please prove it. I and all the logicians in the world are dying to know. In fact, do so in this scenario:


1. An infallible, omniscient, being exists. [Assumption]

2. This being has foreknowledge that from a set of events denoted A1, A2, A3... An respectively, event 'A5' will occur. [Definition of omniscience. Point 1]

3. 'A5' must occur. [Definition of infallible. Point 1]

4. I cannot choose to do any action which would make it so that 'A5' does not occur. [Points, 1, 2, 3]

5. I lack free will. [Point 4]


A psychic with real powers does not mean some force is choosing something for you. If no other force than yourself is making that choice, free will exists. It means you had no ultimate choice but to do just as they saw. That is not free will.


If, however, the only power that someone has is seeing choices made before they are made, then no. You mustn't do what he sees, he must accurately see what you will choose to do.That's the only power needed! The moment he writes something down on paper of what will happen in the future, means that when that time comes I must do what he wrote down. The actions that I take that day must coincide with what he wrote down.


Again, as has been said, we also can't deviate from past decisions. The psychic merely sees the future, not plans or makes it. He sees what you will choose to do. So what? We can't change the past? So? The past and the future are two very different things. Free will doesn't rest on you having choices in the past in the past... it rests on you having choices in the future.



You said, "I'm not saying anyone "made it happen" at least once.Yes. As in, "I'm not claiming to know who or what does". That does not mean I'm claiming the opposite.



Explained in my previous post. And in many other posts. Do you want to just keep repeating the same argument and see who gives up first?Right! Because if I reply, it must mean I'm repeating myself to see who gives up first. But if you do... that's definitely not the case, huh? Spare me your fucking bullshit please.

What he said was there are plenty of things he's not going to do, that doesn't mean he couldn't have chosen differently.

Why do you say "couldn't", why not "can't"?

God knows what my decisions will be before I'm born, before I can make a decision. That's why the statement:

"God knows that I'm going to decide on one thing, even though I can decide on any number of things."

is paradoxical.


Look at this example:

I videotape you deciding to write a number from 1 to 100 on a piece of paper and then showing what number you wrote. Every time I watch this, I can predict what number you wrote because you can't change you're mind at this point. Of course that doesn't mean you couldn't change your mind before you wrote it.

If you were able to see me write the number down before I decided to write it - as God can - then there isn't any choice.

Well you're right. You can deny it, sure. You denial would just be false. I can deny that 2+2 =4. But that's not up to debate. 2 + 2 = 4, whether you agree with it or not.
Stating that my denial "would just be false" doesn't make it so.


If you are saying I could have chosen a different number from the one the psychic wrote down, the please prove it. I and all the logicians in the world are dying to know. In fact, do so in this scenario:


1. An infallible, omniscient, being exists. [Assumption]

2. This being has foreknowledge that from a set of events denoted A1, A2, A3... An respectively, event 'A5' will occur. [Definition of omniscience. Point 1]

3. 'A5' must occur. [Definition of infallible. Point 1]

4. I cannot choose to do any action which would make it so that 'A5' does not occur. [Points, 1, 2, 3]

5. I lack free will. [Point 4]
Explained over, and over, and over.

Something must occur. The omniscient being sees the future as easily as the past. He is not only omniscient but omnipotent. With His omnipotentness, he gives everyone free will. A% must not occur because He saw it. A5 will occur because something must occur, and He sees the result of free will in action in advance.




It means you had no ultimate choice but to do just as they saw. That is not free will.
It doesn't mean that. The ultimate choice was mine, but a psychic sees it in advance. Seeing choices in advance does not stop those choices from being choices.



That's the only power needed! The moment he writes something down on paper of what will happen in the future, means that when that time comes I must do what he wrote down. The actions that I take that day must coincide with what he wrote down.
Explained. A god can create beings with free will and see in the future. You mustn't do what He wrote down, He must write down what you will do.



So what? We can't change the past? So? The past and the future are two very different things.
Not for an omniscient being. He sees both just as clearly.



Free will doesn't rest on you being able to do what you want.. in the past... it rests on you being able to do what you want in the present/future.
But those past decisions were free choices also. The being merely sees both past and future equally accurate.




Yes. As in, "I'm not claiming to know what does stop you hence why I haven't said he made it happen".
I answered your question of where you said it, haven't I?




Right! Because if I reply, it must mean I'm repeating myself to see who gives up first. But if you do... that's definitely not the case, huh? Spare me your fucking bullshit please.
No, not if you reply. If you keep making the same arguments a minimum of 20 times. That's no bullshit.

Why do you say "couldn't", why not "can't"?

God knows what my decisions will be before I'm born, before I can make a decision. That's why the statement:

"God knows that I'm going to decide on one thing, even though I can decide on any number of things."

is paradoxical.
There's no paradox. You make the choice, He has the power to see choices in advance.




If you were able to see me write the number down before I decided to write it - as God can - then there isn't any choice.
If the only power is to see things in advance and not make you do things, then there still was a choice.

And the content of a tape of the past can't vary either. That doesn't mean choice of free will weren't made.

That has nothing to do with anything! In that scenario, the context varying makes no sense. In the context of the future, it certainly does.



If god gave you free will, he must see it just as you will decide to do it, not that you must do what he saw. If you must do what he saw, then you are saying some force forced you.

When the time comes I must act to coincide with what he saw. Whether that means I'm being forced by someone or some phenomenon is irrelevant. I must act how they saw.


Explained already. If next week I decide to play, you can't see the future any differently if you indeed can see the future. If I decide not to, you would have seen it differently.

Explained already: So when that next week comes, you must act just to coincide with my vision of the future. You cannot deviate, you cannot ultimately change your mind.


What's more loveable is how you resolved a problem "that has plagued theology for centuries and stumped the best minds in the world".

Who the fuck said I resolved it? I'm the one saying the problem is still there! That the problem isn't resolved.

You are the guys that are saying you've resolved the problem by saying "You did choose" as if the best minds in the world hadn't thought of that! Nope. All theologians and logicians in the world were just too dumb to come up with that amazing explanation... :rolleyes:

Stating that my denial "would just be false" doesn't make it so.


No, the fact that it contradicts logic as we know it does.



Explained over, and over, and over.

Something must occur. The omniscient being sees the future as easily as the past. He is not only omniscient but omnipotent. With His omnipotentness, he gives everyone free will. A% must not occur because He saw it. A5 will occur because something must occur, and He sees the result of free will in action in advance.

Sorry but "omnipotentness" is not a premise in the original argument. Not to mention that you're not following the deductive argument.

Either show how the conclusion does not follow from the original premise and/or how the premises are wrong, or admit that you cannot.



It doesn't mean that. The ultimate choice was mine, but a psychic sees it in advance. Seeing choices in advance does not stop those choices from being choices.

It does mean that because you couldn't deviate. If you could deviate that day, then obviously she didn't see correctly!



Explained. A god can create beings with free will and see in the future. You mustn't do what He wrote down, He must write down what you will do.

Explained. When the time comes I must do exactly what he wrote down. I cannot deviate from what he wrote down at that moment.



Not for an omniscient being. He sees both just as clearly.

Who the fuck said otherwise?



But those past decisions were free choices also. The being merely sees both past and future equally accurate.

And you know that they were free choices how exactly? Because you say so? Awesome.

I answered your question of where you said it, haven't I?

No. I never once said "he doesn't stop you from choosing it". I said "I'm not saying anyone made it happen". The two are not the same. One is claiming that nobody made it happen, the other is pointing out how I've never claimed either way.


No, not if you reply. If you keep making the same arguments a minimum of 20 times. That's no bullshit.

And you and Scraff haven't? Again, please spare me your fucking bullshit.

That has nothing to do with anything! In that scenario, the context varying makes no sense. In the context of the future, it certainly does.
Nope. The omniscient being sees the future just as we see tapes of the past.




When the time comes I must act to coincide with what he saw. Whether that means I'm being forced by someone or some phenomenon is irrelevant. I must act how they saw.
Explained. You mustn't do what He wrote down, He must write down what you will do- of your own free will.





Explained already: So when that next week comes, you must act just to coincide with my vision of the future. You cannot deviate, you cannot ultimately change your mind.
Explained. You can change your mind all week long. An omniscient god sees what those changes are as I can see what those changes were after the fact.



Who the fuck said I resolved it? I'm the one saying the problem is still there! That the problem isn't resolved.

You have concluded with supposed proofs that free will can not exist if an omniscient being exists. How is this consistent with also claiming the problem hasn't been resolved? Do you think resolving a problem means everyone on Earth agrees? If that's the case, no problems have been resolved.

No, the fact that it contradicts logic as we know it does.
No, it doesn't.




Sorry but "omnipotentness" is not a premise in the original argument. Not to mention that you're not following the deductive argument.

Either show how the conclusion does not follow from the original premise and/or how the premises are wrong, or admit that you cannot.
I've showed it over and over. I included omnipotentness because that's how most believers believe God to be. The purpose is to show that an omnipotent, omniscient god can exist along with Him giving free will.




It does mean that because you couldn't deviate. If you could deviate that day, then obviously she didn't see correctly!
Oh, you could deviate that day, she just would have made a different prediction.




Explained. When the time comes I must do exactly what he wrote down. I cannot deviate from what he wrote down at that moment.
Explained. You mustn't do what He wrote down, He must write down what you will do- of your own free will.





And you know that they were free choices how exactly? Because you say so? Awesome.
I never said free will exists. I'm proposing that a scenario where a god who gives free will can also be omniscient is not logically inconsistent.




And you and Scraff haven't? Again, please spare me your fucking bullshit.

Yup, I have. Looks like Scraff is done or at least done for the day. I'm probably done for the day too, but I'll keep going tomorrow if you like. I'm can't help but be curious of how many hours you'll keep repeating the same exact arguments while I do the same.

Nope. The omniscient being sees the future just as we see tapes of the past.

Who said otherwise? Do you even understand what I'm saying? Yes. He knows the future and the past just as well. When my time comes, when I'm in the present that day. I must choose to make the tape the way the god saw it. If I do not do it that way, I contradict the fact that he saw it.



Explained. You mustn't do what He wrote down, He must write down what you will do- of your own free will.
Not explained. When the day comes I cannot do something that varies from what was written down. If I do, what was written down was wrong.



Explained. You can change your mind all week long. An omniscient god sees what those changes are as I can see what those changes were after the fact.Not explained. He can see X numbers of times when I change my mind, but I cannot change my mind after he was written something down: I cannot change my mind the day of the choice. That day, I must coincide with what was written down.




I've showed it over and over. I included omnipotentness because that's how most believers believe God to be. The purpose is to show that an omnipotent, omniscient god can exist along with Him giving free will.

You've done no such thing. You have not shown where the premises do not follow. You've just levied nonsensical objections without being specific. Show me exactly where they fail to follow. Show me how I cannot say that he has knowledge of A5 occuring, or how I cannot say that A5 must occur, or how I cannot say that I cannot do something which makes it so that A5 does not occur.

Not to mention that the problem is with foreknowledge and free will, which is why the same applies to a non-omnipotent psychic. Omnipotence is utterly irrelevant to the point.


You have concluded with supposed proofs that free will can not exist if an omniscient being exists. How is this consistent with also claiming the problem hasn't been resolved? Do you think resolving a problem means everyone on Earth agrees? If that's the case, no problems have been resolved.Huh? The problem in question is theological fatalism. That is, the idea that free will and foreknowledge are not compatible. I'm showing how that problem has not been resolved in this thread, by proving how the premise of omniscience leads to the non-existence of free will . If an omniscient being exists, he has knowledge of A1 occurring in the future. A1 must occur. I lack the free will to do anything that makes A1 not occur. That's a problem.

Obviously you had no fucking clue what that concept was in the first place, or you wouldn't be saying that me finding a contradiction with freewill and omniscience somehow resolved it. Thanks for showing your ignorance on the topic at hand. I'll leave this thread on that note, unless you actually provide something of worth, like showing were exactly my argument fails.

I said: "All my decisions have already been made, by myself". You had me for a minute, I agreed that we have free will.

But God can see what I'm going to do before I even exist. That is also where your analogy of videotaping me writing down a number cannot apply.

Respond to this, how can I have free will if God knows what I'm going to do before I am born. When the will part of free will doesn't exist? Unless God knows my will before it exists and thus it isn't my will and the free part of free will is illusionary.

Oh, you could deviate that day, she just would have made a different prediction.

NO! The prediction has been made. THE PREDICTION HAS BEEN MADE. What you are saying makes no sense.

It is currently the present, there was a prediction made in the past. What we decide to do now cannot change that prediction. Don't you see? Free will and omniscience cannot co-exist.

Although, I have other reasons - which are hard to leave out of this thread - for disbelieving both free will and God. As you no doubt have reasons for believing them. We are both far too biased to be arguing this.

For the possibility to exist of a god (or psychic) to be able to see future events, predestination is absolutely necessary.

Likening the past and future to a movie timeline only works if you look at it from the point of view that the entire movie has already been made, and you are watching it from some early chapter. God has already seen the movie, so he knows how it will play out, but you and I are still watching the opening scene.

You and I cannot know how it will go, because we haven't seen it yet. God , on the other hand, has already read the credits.

The problem is that in reality, the future has not happened yet. God (or said psychic) cannot know what will happen unless the future is predestined to unfold in only one possible way.( just as the entire movie must already be made in order to see the end).

If there is only one possible course to the future, the choices one makes(even though one believes that he makes such choices through free will) must be predestined also.

It would simply be impossible to know the future unless the future is predestined. Without predestination, the possibility of an alternate outcome would prevent knowing what the outcome will be.

Foreknowledge and free will are mutually exclusive.

*Not an attempt to derail the free will discussion at hand. Pardon the interruption!

"...just to make for loads of abstract metaphors and useless direction."

Sounds more like you were describing an attempt to win an argument.

I'm sure you'll agree that "useless direction" doesn't make for a good argument. I was describing, in my view, what your belief system was to me: abstract metaphors with useless (meaning NO) direction.

Re-read that paragraph. I was actually asserting that you and Abrahim were alike in that you both did not tend to argue your beliefs. To the two of you, it isn't even up for debate, it's just what it is, and those who don't see it that way are obviously mistaken.

The similarities lie further in that both of you refuse to recognize that your beliefs are categorized as "yet another religion". You remove your concept especially from being labeled an organized religion, although if we were to all agree in unison that your concept is where the Truth really lies (which I assume is why you spread what it is you know) - we would be organized together, as such. A second common denominator it shares with other religions is the concept of a God as it's central tenet.

Of course, thats how everyone regards their beliefs. Is what you regard to be true, not just true to you, without questioning?

Why bother pointing that out?

No - that's how everyone regards their spiritual beliefs. What I regard to be true, without question, able to be fully observed - are things that can easily be proven as such, by heaps of evidence. The things I have no proof or evidence for, I do not dream up belief systems about. I make no call on it, and I sure as hell don't paint myself a belief system based on what I'd like to be true, or what I feel suits my lifestyle best. I just don't explore it all until there is something that presents itself to be examined.

I bothered pointing it out because it was yet another parallel between yours and Abrahim's testimonies of what you believed in.

That would worry me, because I would not want the masses subscribing to an organized body of religion

Then you'd better not continue propagating it! Else you stand the chance of it catching on, spreading like wildfire, and everyone jumping on the bandwagon, if you will.

putting themselves and the generations to come at the risk of manipulation and control of an elite.

Who would this 'elite' be? And why would manipulation matter to the enlightened? It's just an illusion. This is just maya, not the real truth within the perfect state. Right?

I know what I know, and everyone else should know what they know as well.


Why should, and not does?

Who said otherwise? Do you even understand what I'm saying? Yes. He knows the future and the past just as well. When my time comes, when I'm in the present that day. I must choose to make the tape the way the god saw it. If I do not do it that way, I contradict the fact that he saw it.
He must have seen the tape the way you will CHOOSE to make it. You have free will to choose, He sees the choice in advance.


Not explained. When the day comes I cannot do something that varies from what was written down. If I do, what was written down was wrong.
He can not have written down what varies from what you will choose or His choice is wrong.


Not explained. He can see X numbers of times when I change my mind, but I cannot change my mind after he was written something down:
Yes, you can. You have free will and can continue to change your mind until you finally choose.

I cannot change my mind the day of the choice. That day, I must coincide with what was written down.
That's one possibility. Another is that you have free will aand you choose as you like. It's up to the omniscient being to have written down the correct predixtion.



NO! The prediction has been made. THE PREDICTION HAS BEEN MADE. What you are saying makes no sense.

It is currently the present, there was a prediction made in the past. What we decide to do now cannot change that prediction.
Right, you can't change the prediction. The prediction also has no power to change what you will do. The prediction is an accurate assessment of what you will choose to do of your own free will.

It is currently the present for us. For a god, it is the past, present, and future. There is not one single reason a god can't grant free will and see what you CHOOSE in advance.


God (or said psychic) cannot know what will happen unless the future is predestined to unfold in only one possible way.( just as the entire movie must already be made in order to see the end).
The future can have an infinite amount of possibilities. A psychic sees in advance what will finally happen. This can be so whether or not free will exists.

Yes, you can. You have free will and can continue to change your mind until you finally choose.

I finally "choose" on the day of the event or choice is to take place. He would have already "written down" something (i.e. known the future) long before that day, so I cannot change my mind and choose something that deviates from that after the fact.


That's one possibility. Another is that you have free will aand you choose as you like. It's up to the omniscient being to have written down the correct predixtion.If he has foreknowledge, then that is not a possibility. If someone "knows what will finally happen" (i.e. "knows the future") then the future can only occur that one way. That is not synonymous with free will - that is precisely what we expect from predetermination: the future unfolding in one specific manner.

As for the last part, we are assuming he does not lie. He writes down what he saw. If he wrote something that was incorrect (i.e. an incorrect prediction), then obviously he didn't see the future.


P.S. I'm only replying because I see a glimpse of hope that it would be fruitful to do so.

To add just a little to what Scraff wrote:

You and Scraff sure seem to be in complete agreement. And your arguments seem to really compliment one another.

Confessionals, anyone?

...It is currently the present for us. For a god, it is the past, present, and future. There is not one single reason a god can't grant free will and see what you CHOOSE in advance.

If our present is god's past, then we are destined to play out our future as god has seen it. We have no choice but to do so. The most we would have is the illusion of free will, as our actions are predetremined. We cannot stray from what god has seen, or god did not really see the future in the first place.

The future can have an infinite amount of possibilities. A psychic sees in advance what will finally happen. This can be so whether or not free will exists.



Once the psychic has seen the future any other possibilities no longer exist. You no longer really have a choice.

Honestly though, this entire discussion is really just a pointless mind game. Isn't it kind of silly to argue such attributes as the omniscience and omnipotence of a being that cannot even be proven to exist? At least (people professing to be) psychics actually exist.


By the way. Some here seem to believe that foreknowledge and prediction are synonomous, which is hardly the case. Predictions are based on supposition and may possibly be wrong. Foreknowledge is knowing as fact that an event will occur.

Right, you can't change the prediction.

I can't change the prediction, the predicted choice is inevitable. Therefore I have to make it. I am unable to make a choice other than the prediction. Remember, the prediction has already been made and here I am, deciding right now.

How is this debatable? What you said does not debate this:

The prediction also has no power to change what you will do. The prediction is an accurate assessment of what you will choose to do of your own free will.

Of course the prediction has no power over me, that's not what is being said. It's the fact that I can be predicted that limits me.

I finally "choose" on the day of the event or choice is to take place. He would have already "written down" something (i.e. known the future) long before that day, so I cannot change my mind and choose something that deviates from that after the fact.
You're looking at things in order of time. First this happens, then that happens.

For a being with a supernatural power, this isn't relevant. He sees the future as clearly as the past.

This is why saying you also can't change your mind after you already write a number down is a valid argument. You can't change your mind after the fact, but that doesn't mean the choice wasn't yours.

In the case of a supernatural being seeing the future, you can't write down a number different than was foretold, but not because you couldn't change your mind all you want as if some force is stopping you, but because that number is what you will choose. The being merely sees the future events before they happen.

If he has foreknowledge, then that is not a possibility.
And if I have afterknowledge, some other event is also now not a possibility. Not because of a lack of free will.


If someone "knows what will finally happen" (i.e. "knows the future") then the future can only occur that one way. That is not synonymous with free will - that is precisely what we expect from predetermination: the future unfolding in one specific manner.
And the past unfolded in one specific manner. A supernatural being just sees the future.

As for the last part, we are assuming he does not lie. He writes down what he saw. If he wrote something that was incorrect (i.e. an incorrect prediction), then obviously he didn't see the future.
No shit. We're talking about a being that definitely does see the future.


P.S. I'm only replying because I see a glimpse of hope that it would be fruitful to do so.
And this is different than what you've been doing post after post?


If our present is god's past, then we are destined to play out our future as god has seen it. We have no choice but to do so.
Depends how you're defining destiny. It must play out the way God has seen it because He sees the future. He sees what choices others freely make before they make them. You have no choice to change past choices, but only because you already made them. You're future choices can be seen by a god, but not because it's the only possible outcome or because He destined a certain path for you. It's because He sees what you will choose to do. That still implies free will.


Once the psychic has seen the future any other possibilities no longer exist. You no longer really have a choice.
That's exactly the same as saying once you do something, you have no other choice to do something else. The psychic sees what you choose. The choice is still yours.


Of course the prediction has no power over me, that's not what is being said. It's the fact that I can be predicted that limits me.
Psychicness does not limit you. It's merely accurately predicts choices that will be made.



I can't change the prediction, the predicted choice is inevitable. Therefore I have to make it. I am unable to make a choice other than the prediction. Remember, the prediction has already been made and here I am, deciding right now.
You saying that you have to do what someone predicts implies that the choice wasn't yours. You don't have to do what was predicted, the predictor has to predict what you will do, or maybe already done on some other plane.

I understand you're saying, "but the predictor wrote it down first". That's irrelevant. A god sees the future. It doesn't matter in what order the choices you make are written down. The choices are yours; He sees the future.

You're looking at things in order of time. First this happens, then that happens.

For a being with a supernatural power, this isn't relevant. He sees the future as clearly as the past.

Of course I'm looking at it in that way, because we're discussing if I have free will! Thus we need to see when I will make the choice. At the time of the event, which is in a point in time were god already knows the future, I can't change my mind. At the moment of making the decision, I can't make any other decisions that would deviate from what the god already knows.

What you're doing is saying I've somehow made a choice when I don't even exist let alone know of alternatives and then when the event comes it doesn't matter that I'm forced to conform to a specific vision of the future, which is utterly idiotic.


No shit. We're talking about a being that definitely does see the future.No shit. Tell him that. :rolleyes:

He said "It's up to the omniscient being to have written down the correct predixtion." Implying that the predictor could be writing something incorrect. I'm showing him that's not something we're considering, we're considering one that has 100% accuracy and would not lie (i.e. would definitely write down the correct prediction).


And this is different than what you've been doing post after post?I said I was going to stop posting. I decided to post because he made some comments I thought were slightly different, and had the glimpse of being more productive.

Of course I'm looking at it in that way, because we're discussing if I have free will! Thus we need to see when I will make the choice. At the time of the event, which is in a point in time were god already knows the future, I can't change my mind. At the moment of making the decision, I can't make any other decisions that would deviate from what the god already knows.
All your deviating has been seen in advance. You can't deviate from what God knows because what God knows is what you will choose of your own free will. If it's your choices He sees, it's free will.


What you're doing is saying I've somehow made a choice when I don't even exist let alone know of alternatives and then when the event comes it doesn't matter that I'm forced to conform to a specific vision of the future, which is utterly idiotic.
If I'm a psychic and I see that a plane will crash tomorrow due to a drunk pilot, does that mean the pilot already made a decision to drink? He still has alternatives, I just foresee which alternative he will choose to make.

All your deviating has been seen in advance. You can't deviate from what God knows because what God knows is what you will choose of your own free will. If it's your choices He sees, it's free will.

If I cannot deviate when the time comes to make the choice I would lack the free will to choose something else that day. That's exactly why that is not consistent with free will: Because I cannot deviate when the day of the "choice" comes! That's not free will!


If I'm a psychic and I see that a plane will crash tomorrow due to a drunk pilot, does that mean the pilot already made a decision to drink? That day hasn't come. When that day comes, he can't make any decisions that deviate from what you saw.

If an omniscient god exists, are you deciding right now whether to read this or not?

You saying that you have to do what someone predicts implies that the choice wasn't yours. You don't have to do what was predicted, the predictor has to predict what you will do, or maybe already done on some other plane.

God created me with the knowledge of all my future decisions. I am and I do exactly as he planned.

You can't deviate from what God knows because what God knows is what you will choose of your own free will. If it's your choices He sees, it's free will.

You're basing your argument on the assumption of free will? Do you even read what you post?

If I cannot deviate when the time comes to make the choice I would lack the free will to choose something else that day. That's exactly why that is not consistent with free will: Because I cannot deviate when the day of the "choice" comes! That's not free will!
I thought you were done posting the same points?

You CAN deviate all you like when the time comes. It's just that a supernatural being sees the future as clearly as the present. The being sees what choice you will make just as I see what choice you did make after the fact. Either way, the final choice can't be changed, but it was still your choice. That is free will.


That day hasn't come. When that day comes, he can't make any decisions that deviate from what you saw.
You see what you're doing? You're saying the pilot must do what I saw. No, I am a psychic and I see in advance what he will choose to do. A psychic sees things; he does not make things happen.


If an omniscient god exists, are you deciding right now whether to read this or not?
Is He omnipotent too and created us with free will? It's possible for an omnipotent god to exist and we don't have free will, and it's possible for Him to exist and we do have free will. Either way, he knows all including future events. He either makes all plans for you or knows what free will choices people will make.



God created me with the knowledge of all my future decisions. I am and I do exactly as he planned.
That's a contradiction. If they're YOUR future plans, that implies free will.

If He knows your future plans, you aren't to do anything He planned as they aren't His plans, they're yours. He just must know what plans you will choose to make or He's not omnipotent.




You're basing your argument on the assumption of free will? Do you even read what you post?
Yes and Yes.

I don't believe in free will and I also don't believe any people or beings exist that can see the future. My argument is that both things can exist at the same time.

I thought you were done posting the same points?

The same could be said of you and your bullshit, moron, so please spare me your inane comments.

I'm repeating myself, because so are you because apparnelty you can't understand these simple things. If you don't like reading what I say, then how about you don't?


You CAN deviate all you like when the time comes.

No, you cannot. I cannot deviate when the time comes because he already has a vision of the future, and my actions must be the same as that vision.

Like you yourself said: "You can't deviate from what God knows". So I'm entirely correct. You cannot deviate, when the time comes, from what he saw (i.e. "what god knows"). That is not free will.

You, for some unknown reason, think that we get to choose something before we are born. That's not the case. We chose when the day of the choice comes. The day of the choice comes long after the future is set in stone (set in stone when the future is known, since, as you already admit, '[Nothing] can deviate from what god saw'.


You see what you're doing? You're saying the pilot must do what I saw. No, I am a psychic and I see in advance what he will choose to do. A psychic sees things; he does not make things happen.

He must do what you saw, because if he doesn't, then you obviously saw wrong! Since you don't see wrong (i.e. you are 100% accurate), then he must coincide with what you saw perfectly.


Is He omnipotent too and created us with free will? It's possible for an omnipotent god to exist and we don't have free will, and it's possible for Him to exist and we do have free will. Either way, he knows all including future events. He either makes all plans for you or knows what free will choices people will make.

Answer the question please. I said an omniscient god, not an omnipotent one. Do not add new things like omnipotence out of thin air. Again, if an omniscient god exists, are you deciding, right now, to read this?

The same could be said of you and your bullshit, moron, so please spare me your inane comments.
No, it can't be said of me. I never said I was going to stop- you did.

I'm repeating myself, because so are you because apparnelty you can't understand these simple things. If you don't like reading what I say, then how about you don't?
You're repeating yourself for my benefit? I doubt it. I think you can't stand not getting the last word in. If I can't understand simple things, repeating the same words aren't going to help me.



No, you cannot. I cannot deviate when the time comes because he already has a vision of the future, and my actions must be the same as that vision.
Your actions must be the same as that vision because the vision is an accurate representation of the choices you make. That's free will choices seen in the present just as I can see your free will choices you made in the past.


Like you yourself said: "You can't deviate from what God knows". So I'm entirely correct. You cannot deviate, when the time comes, from what he saw (i.e. "what god knows"). That is not free will.
You can't deviate from what choices you made yesterday either. That doesn't take away free will. What this god knows is what you will do, whether it be by free will or His forced plan. Seeing the future does not however mean free will can't exist, just that free will choices can be accurately predicted.


You, for some unknown reason, think that we get to choose something before we are born.
No, I don't. If you don't exist, you can't choose something. That doesn't mean that a being who sees the future can't see that you will be born and see your free will choices.


That's not the case. We chose when the day of the choice comes.
Right. We choose. That means we have free will.


The day of the choice comes long after the future is set in stone (set in stone when the future is known, since, as you already admit, '[Nothing] can deviate from what god saw'.
It can't deviate because He sees the future accurately, not because the choices weren't yours.

Again, you're using the logic that this happens first, then this must happen next. That's not the case for someone with the power to see the future. This or that can be chosen to happen later, but the being can see it now.



He must do what you saw, because if he doesn't, then you obviously saw wrong! Since you don't see wrong (i.e. you are 100% accurate), then he must coincide with what you saw perfectly.
Not if he has free will. If he has free will, then it's me, the accurate psychic, who sees what he will do; it's not him that must follow what I saw.



Answer the question please. I said an omniscient god, not an omnipotent one. Do not add new things like omnipotence out of thin air. Again, if an omniscient god exists, are you deciding, right now, to read this?
If an omniscient god exists and I don't know if He's also omnipotent and created us with free will, then I can't answer the question. It's possible that some force is making me write this right now and it's also possible that I have free will and I am deciding to write this right now.

No, it can't be said of me. I never said I was going to stop- you did.

I continued conversing with xray, not you I might add (you just decided to butt in, which makes your claim that I'm getting the last word painfully ironic) because I thought he said some things that could end up producing a better conversation between him and me.

Since I determine whether I think it's fruitful to continue, not you, I get to decide when to stop.


You're repeating yourself for my benefit? I doubt it. I think you can't stand not getting the last word in. If I can't understand simple things, repeating the same words aren't going to help me. If you reply, it's not because you "can't stand not getting the last word in", but if I reply, it must be because of that? :rolleyes:

Again, the exact same thing can be said of you, please spare me your inane bullshit.



Your actions must be the same as that vision because the vision is an accurate representation of the choices you make.I am supposed to make a choice only at the day of the event. But since the god knows before that day, then the outcome is set in stone before the I should be able to make a choice - before I'm even born in some scenarios. Thus, when it actually comes to that day of getting to make a choice, since outcome is set in stone before hand, I am not really choosing anything, but being forced to coincide with what he saw. There is no free will.

Look at this very simple diagram:

http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/3627/fatalismvr9.gif

When is the future set in stone? At point in time A. When am I going to make a choice? At point in time B. That comes after A. SoI get to make my "choice" (which is no choice at all), after the future is set in stone. That is nothing close to free will!

That's the last thing I'll say to you. If you can't understand that, then I can't do anything else for you. That coupled with the fact that you think you've resolved a problem that has plagued theology for centuries just by saying "you did choose", is enough to show any reasonable human being just how wrong you are. I'm content with that.

That's a contradiction. If they're YOUR future plans, that implies free will.

Alright, I'll rephrase.

God created me with the knowledge of all the future actions my body will perform. I am and I do exactly as he planned.

If He knows your future plans, you aren't to do anything He planned as they aren't His plans, they're yours. He just must know what plans you will choose to make or He's not omnipotent.

I'm saying they aren't my plans. God created me, knowing exactly what I will do at every instance of my existence.

Since I determine whether I think it's fruitful to continue, not you, I get to decide when to stop.
You said I said the same thing you did- I didn't. I never implied you don't get to decide. It's just that you said you made you're decision and are only continuing because you have some new points to make. You don't. You're just repeating yourself


If you reply, it's not because you "can't stand not getting the last word in", but if I reply, it must be because of that? :rolleyes:
You're the one who said you're repeating yourself because I don't understand something simple. Repeating yourself doesn't help. I get your points; they just don't prove that free will and omniscience can't exist.


Again, the exact same thing can be said of you, moron, please spare me your inane bullshit.
You originally said that regarding saying one is going to stop posting and continuing to do so. It can't be said of me. I didn't say I would stop- you did.



I make a choice only at the day of the event. Only on that day do I get to make a "choice". But since the god knows before that day, then the outcome is set in stone before the I should be able to make a choice - before I'm even born in some scenarios. Thus, when it actually comes to that day of getting to make a choice, since outcome is set in stone, I am not really choosing anything,but being forced to coincide with what he saw. There is no free will.
No. The choice was not yet made which is what defines the accurate predictions as foreseeing. If the god gives you free will, it is not you being forced to do anything. It is Him that has a supernatural power to see what choices you will make in advance. Him seeing things means certain things will happen (are set in stone), but they can still happen through free will. You are never being forced to do anything. Foresight is not manipulation.


That's the last thing I'll say to you.
Wanna make a bet?



If you can't understand that, then I can't do anything else for you. That coupled with the fact that you think you've resolved a problem that has plagued theology for centuries just by saying "you did choose", is enough to show any reasonable human being just how wrong you are. I'm content with that.
I replied with more than "you did choose". You say that it has "plagued" theologians for centuries as if no one has answered the supposed problem of omniscience and free will. See the following article.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theological_fatalism

Alright, I'll rephrase.

God created me with the knowledge of all the future actions my body will perform. I am and I do exactly as he planned.
Unless he makes no plans for you and gives you free will.
Then He is to know exactly what you choose to perform.



I'm saying they aren't my plans. God created me, knowing exactly what I will do at every instance of my existence.
That's a possible scenario. Another is that He creates you with free will and as the wikipedia article I linked to says:

"Alternatively, if God can see the future like it was past history like reading a past infinite almanac, then he (as long as he didn’t tell anyone or influence their choices) would not be responsible for the outcomes anymore then if he'd never looked.".

That's a possible scenario.

It's the only scenario. God created me with the knowledge of my every thought and move.

What part of this statement are you saying is possibly untrue?

The part where you wrote, "I'm saying they aren't my plans".

It's possible that a god could have made all of our plans for us and when we agonize over decisions, free will is just an illusion

or the other possibility involving a god:

A god creates us with free will and has foreknowledge of all future events. He knows what will be freely chosen but does not allow Himself or any other force be part of the decision making process.

Good job Scraff. Not to mention surprising. ;)

You can have free will.

You can have omnipotence.

You can infallibility.

You can NOT have all. Pick any two and you can have em. You cannot logically pick three.

If you pick infallibility and omnipotence (like god) then you cannot have free will. God cannot have free will. If he knows what he is going to do and is never wrong he cannot change his mind. What is so hard to understand about this?

If he knows what I am going to do and is never wrong I cannot do something different. With ominipotence and infallibility you have destiny. A destiny that you cannot change no matter WHAT YOU DO. This is the absence of free will.

Man.

You just don't get God.

Our minds are an extension of the divine mind therefore our species are naturally 'masters', we change our reality to suit us. However, there is a divine structure, a divine order to the universe. I believe this line from the epic series of the Hyperion Cantos describes it quite well. 'The universe is only outlined in pencil, it is we who fill it in.' There is a divine plan, but there many ways in which this plan can manifest.