I've had this scenario floating around my head for awhile.

Think of someone you love, really love. Mother, father, wife, husband, anyone. OK? Good.

Now lets say that person killed another person. You dad gets fired from his job so he kills his boss and gets away with it. He isn't sorry because the guy was a jerk and abused him for 20 years. Perhaps your mother sleeps with another man, or something like that.

Now would you sentence that person to an eternity of fire and burning and pain and suffering and torture until the end of time, just because they did that without remorse?

I know I wouldn't. So does that make me more forgiving and more loving than god? I think it does.

Someone who commits murders but repents and accepts Jesus Christ will go to heaven, but someone who lives a "good" life but rejects Jesus Christ will go to hell.

People are not saved by their good works (Ephesians 2:8-9), only God's grace and their faith.

It's not so much a matter of God choosing to condemn people to hell as it is God only choosing to give eternal life & salvation to those who believe him.

God doesn't owe anyone anything. He's already given everyone 1 life here on Earth. Why should he give someone an additional life in heaven if they won't even acknowledge his existance?

God doesn't owe anyone anything. He's already given everyone 1 life here on Earth. Why should he give someone an additional life in heaven if they won't even acknowledge his existance?

Well, that's all fine and dandy, but why not just make the soul of the unbeliever cease to exist? Why sentence them to torture for all eternity?

As far as I'm concerned, any God who will send innocents to hell simply for not believing in him is a terrible monster, and not worth my worship.

Someone who commits murders but repents and accepts Jesus Christ will go to heaven, but someone who lives a "good" life but rejects Jesus Christ will go to hell.


So one can just rape, murder, steal, lie and be an all-around bad person for the great majority of their life, but as long as they repent before they die and accept Jesus Christ, they still get into heaven?

Yet if one lives an upstanding, peaceful life free of murdering, raping, stealing and lying - and their only "sin" is not acknowledging Jesus Christ - they go to hell?

Heaven sounds like a place full of undesirables who were clever enough to know when to bluff in order to save their own ass.

Kinda like a criminal who can effectively get away with murder without serving time in prison as long as he's in good with the judge who oversees his case. But if an innocent man who has never murdered happens to get on the wrong side of the judge, he might very well be sent to prison although his crimes hardly warrant the punishment!

Ridiculous.

Ridiculous!

So one can just rape, murder, steal, lie and be an all-around bad person for the great majority of their life, but as long as they repent before they die and accept Jesus Christ, they still get into heaven?

Yet if one lives an upstanding, peaceful life free of murdering, raping, stealing and lying - and their only "sin" is not acknowledging Jesus Christ - they go to hell?

Heaven sounds like a place full of undesirables who were clever enough to know when to bluff in order to save their own ass.

Kinda like a criminal who can effectively get away with murder without serving time in prison as long as he's in good with the judge who oversees his case. But if an innocent man who has never murdered happens to get on the wrong side of the judge, he might very well be sent to prison although his crimes hardly warrant the punishment!

Ridiculous.

Ridiculous!

Uh, fail. You can't bluff with God.

Uh, fail. You can't bluff with God.

Okay, replace the word "bluff" and insert "repent". Makes no difference to the point of what I wrote.

Heaven sounds like a place full of undesirables who were clever enough to know when to repent in order to save their own ass.

Okay, replace the word "bluff" and insert "repent". Makes no difference to the point of what I wrote.

Heaven sounds like a place full of undesirables who were clever enough to know when to repent in order to save their own ass.
You can't repent to save your own ass. Repenting entails actually feeling sorry for what you did, not just saying you repent to save yourself in an act of cleverness.

I do, however, agree with your point that living a good life and not believing some act 2000 years ago actually happened is a ridiculous reason to be punished so barbarically.

Okay now. Either realize this as the truth, or fucking kill yourself:

There is no such thing as both a God and free will. It just doesn't make any sense.

If you honestly cannot comprehend this, you're stupid beyond belief.

Okay now. Either realize this as the truth, or fucking kill yourself:

There is no such thing as both a God and free will. It just doesn't make any sense.

If you honestly cannot comprehend this, you're stupid beyond belief.

And how smart is someone who can't reply in the correct thread?

And how smart is someone who can't reply in the correct thread?

I did reply in the correct thread.

And I've never claimed to be 'smart'.

You can't repent to save your own ass. Repenting entails actually feeling sorry for what you did, not just saying you repent to save yourself in an act of cleverness.

I could feel genuinely sorry for what I did if my ass was on the line, set to burn in hell if I didn't repent. Whether it's deemed clever or not, the feeling of being sorry could still be genuine. Even MORE genuine, considering it directly effects me, not just some victim.

If the act of repenting can be pulled out of my hat whenever I decide it's beneficial to do so, then that means I can live a life of sin, and repent at the very last minute, and still go to heaven.

Still ridiculous!

Especially since a person who lived free of murder, lies, rape and thievery their entire life but DIDN'T repent would burn in hell just because they wouldn't acknowledge Jesus Christ as anything besides a historical figure and a mortal man. All those good deeds just erased, simply because God demands recognition of his "son".

You clearly didn't respond in the correct thread. Where in this thread is omniscience and free will being discussed? You obviously meant to respond in another thread where I am arguing about omniscience and free will and are lying about meaning to post in this one after claiming that I'm the one who is stupid beyond belief. Not gonna fool anyone.

I could feel genuinely sorry for what I did if my ass was on the line, set to burn in hell if I didn't repent.
First of all, cut the Scraff/xray shit out. Two people can have the same points of view and use points made in anothers posts without being the same person.

No, you can't feel sorry for what you did because your ass is on the line. You can only feel sorry for what you did if you actually empathize for what you've done to someone, not because you may now suffer.

But if this somehow does get you to "feel genuinely sorry for what you did", then there was no cleverness involved and your whole point is moot.


Whether it's deemed clever or not, the feeling of being sorry could still be genuine. Even MORE genuine, considering it directly effects me, not just some victim.
No, less genuine if it affects you. More genuine if you're sorry for what you put someone else through. Repenting over hurting someone else isn't about how bad you feel about how that act will affect you.


If the act of repenting can be pulled out of my hat whenever I decide it's beneficial to do so, then that means I can live a life of sin, and repent at the very last minute, and still go to heaven.
You can't pull actually feeling remorse for something out of a hat.

You clearly didn't respond in the correct thread. Where in this thread is omniscience and free will being discussed? You obviously meant to respond in another thread where I am arguing about omniscience and free will and are lying about meaning to post in this one after claiming that I'm the one who is stupid beyond belief. Not gonna fool anyone.

I have absolutely no problem admitting my mistakes - When I make one - but this was not a mistake.

It was a reply to the "Commit yourself to god or go to hell" discussion, going on right here, in this thread.

Like I said, you're not fooling anyone. It's apparent what's being discussed in this thread and what's being discussed in another.

First of all, cut the Scraff/xray shit out. Two people can have the same points of view and use points made in anothers posts without being the same person.

It must really put you out that xray is stealing your posts after you post something and delete it then. Because in this thread (http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2056077&page=2&highlight=Religion+Deserve+Respect), post #60 that xray made is IDENTICAL to the deleted post that "Scraff" made - within about 3 minutes of each other. Funny ... xray chose to keep the "I" asserted in all of Scraff's opinionated post.

One might even think it was posted in error by the same person, then fixed as an afterthought before anyone noticed... Care to explain? I have screenshots of the deleted post if you'd like to see.

I won't argue any more of your points until you address this, since you/xray conveniently ignored the comment I made about it already in the other thread.

Like I said, you're not fooling anyone.

And neither are you two.

It must really put you out that xray is stealing your posts after you post something and delete it then. Because in this thread (http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2056077&page=2&highlight=Religion+Deserve+Respect), post #60 that xray made is IDENTICAL to the deleted post that "Scraff" made - within about 3 minutes of each other. Funny ... xray chose to keep the "I" asserted in all of Scraff's opinionated post.

One might even think it was posted in error by the same person, then fixed as an afterthought before anyone noticed... Care to explain? I have screenshots of the deleted post if you'd like to see.

I won't argue any more of your points until you address this, since you/xray conveniently ignored the comment I made about it already in the other thread.
xray and I work together. I have probably made the same mistake and posted when he was signed in to a computer, saw it was him, deleted and reposted. Seems suspicious? Yes. I don't care if you don't believe it, but for the record, I am not xray.

xray and I work together.

Clearly. No doubt about that.

Like I said, you're not fooling anyone. It's apparent what's being discussed in this thread and what's being discussed in another.

Yeah, I may just be fooling myself without even knowing of it.

Iteresting theory.

I know I wouldn't. So does that make me more forgiving and more loving than god? I think it does.

- So? What if you are more forgiving than god? Still doesn't change anything (assuming that there is a god). I mean, you might do your bosses job better than them, too, but that still doesn't make you the boss.

Cheers,
Lost

Okay, replace the word "bluff" and insert "repent". Makes no difference to the point of what I wrote.

Heaven sounds like a place full of undesirables who were clever enough to know when to repent in order to save their own ass.

bluffing is a lie. Repenting is honest. Its OK for you to forgive someone, but not God?

Its OK for you to forgive someone, but not God?
It's okay for God to forgive someone for making mistakes, doing bad things, etc. The part that doesn't make sense is God having the additional requirement that that someone also believe history happened a certain way (Jesus died on the cross for others sins).

I'm not stating that it's not okay for God to be forgiving, Zman. It just seems odd to me what the requirements are. Go back to the judge/defendant analogy I made.

If someone KNOWS their only chance of redemption depends on feeling genuinely sorry for what they did, what stops them from living a lifetime of wickedness, all the while knowing that at some point, they're going to repent for all these bad deeds and be permitted into heaven?

What if the person committing the murder/rape/robbery/adultery already feels genuinely sorry for what they do, but just haven't officially repented for it yet? They could put off this repentance for days, or weeks, or months, or years ... and not turn to God with it until moments before their death.

If someone KNOWS their only chance of redemption depends on feeling genuinely sorry for what they did, what stops them from living a lifetime of wickedness, all the while knowing that at some point, they're going to repent for all these bad deeds and be permitted into heaven?
Nothing stops that person from giving it a shot. But an omniscient god would know your motivations and what you're trying to pull and not accept that repentance as genuine.



What if the person committing the murder/rape/robbery/adultery already feels genuinely sorry for what they do, but just haven't officially repented for it yet? They could put off this repentance for days, or weeks, or months, or years ... and not turn to God with it until moments before their death.
Same as above.

I'm not stating that it's not okay for God to be forgiving, Zman. It just seems odd to me what the requirements are. Go back to the judge/defendant analogy I made.

If someone KNOWS their only chance of redemption depends on feeling genuinely sorry for what they did, what stops them from living a lifetime of wickedness, all the while knowing that at some point, they're going to repent for all these bad deeds and be permitted into heaven?

What if the person committing the murder/rape/robbery/adultery already feels genuinely sorry for what they do, but just haven't officially repented for it yet? They could put off this repentance for days, or weeks, or months, or years ... and not turn to God with it until moments before their death.

That's the sin of presumption, you can't do that. There is a lack of real change

No, you can't feel sorry for what you did because your ass is on the line. You can only feel sorry for what you did if you actually empathize for what you've done to someone, not because you may now suffer.

I could also be feeling empathy, though. Perhaps the enormity of what I had done, in the perspective of it putting me in heaven vs. hell, was what triggered the empathy. Maybe I looked back in retrospect and realized that the reason God was going to punish me was because I never had empathy, so what better time than now to genuinely experience it, seek God's guidance and forgiveness, and - as a result - save my ass from the burning embers.

But if this somehow does get you to "feel genuinely sorry for what you did", then there was no cleverness involved and your whole point is moot.

My whole point is not moot. My point wasn't relying on just the cleverness, it is just my personal opinion that realizing that it's not when you repent, it's if you repent that is beneficial. Having the capacity to realize this would be beneficial in saving your own ass quite possibly just in the nick of time. There's a lot to be said in the "fear of God" being a big motivator in changing people's perspectives.

My point was that if repentance is what gets you into heaven, then it seems like you can pretty much do whatever feels good in life, as long as prior to your demise, you "find God" and feel genuinely sorry for what you did. Scratch the bluff. This is the real deal.

I think that's ridiculous, in light of the fact that genuinely good people who don't have the need to be remorseful or repent for anything can't "get in" merely because they refused to exalt, worship and praise God.

No, less genuine if it affects you. More genuine if you're sorry for what you put someone else through. Repenting over hurting someone else isn't about how bad you feel about how that act will affect you.

Fine. The scenario has changed. I did the evil deeds. I realize what I've done and I feel genuinely sorry for what I did, because it affected not only myself, but the people I did it to. I'm scared of hell. I don't want to be condemned there for eternity. I want to scramble to "find God", so that I can show this genuine remorse, and see if he'll help me.

Do you think God would then consider that true repentance, as it's outlined as we know it in the Holy book?


You can't pull actually feeling remorse for something out of a hat.

If that hat is a metaphor for your 'head', then yes you can - unless you think our mental faculties are unable to be manipulated through guilt and fear. I think they can be.

True empathy is still true empathy, regardless of the circumstances. try to picture yourself as a person that has done a lot of bad things, but has truly repented. Would punishing them by denying them entrance to heaven change anything? Let's not forget that God is supposed to be merciful.

The whole point was "If God is ever-merciful, why does he require faith and repentance when (for example) I would require less?"

Nah, there's no bigger atheist than me. Well, I take that back. I'm a cancer screening away from going agnostic and a biopsy away from full-fledged Christian.

Can't remember who said it, and can't look it up because atheistempire.com violates my school's webfilter (classified under occult or cult). :eek:

Nothing stops that person from giving it a shot. But an omniscient god would know your motivations and what you're trying to pull and not accept that repentance as genuine.

What about people born with mental defects that have no concept of what remorse even is? Will they be forgiven because they are missing something in their brains that would allow them to feel bad about things they have done?

Is it their fault if they are born that way, or is it the fault of a higher being for not making sure that every person is born fully functional, both physically & mentally?

I could also be feeling empathy, though. Perhaps the enormity of what I had done, in the perspective of it putting me in heaven vs. hell, was what triggered the empathy. Maybe I looked back in retrospect and realized that the reason God was going to punish me was because I never had empathy, so what better time than now to genuinely experience it, seek God's guidance and forgiveness, and - as a result - save my ass from the burning embers.
You're going to decide to experience empathy because it's the best time? Again, an omniscient being would know your motivations.


My whole point is not moot. My point wasn't relying on just the cleverness,
Well that's the point I was objecting to. Being clever enough to know when to bluff, or repent at the right time, can't work regarding an omniscient being.


it is just my personal opinion that realizing that it's not when you repent, it's if you repent that is beneficial. Having the capacity to realize this would be beneficial in saving your own ass quite possibly just in the nick of time.
Which brings being clever back into the picture. Realizing in advance that you'll be able to do what you want and repent "just in the nick of time" won't fool an omniscient being.



My point was that if repentance is what gets you into heaven, then it seems like you can pretty much do whatever feels good in life, as long as prior to your demise, you "find God" and feel genuinely sorry for what you did. Scratch the bluff. This is the real deal.
Possibly. If you're planning it out the way you wrote which is what I was objecting to is a different story.



I think that's ridiculous, in light of the fact that genuinely good people who don't have the need to be remorseful or repent for anything can't "get in" merely because they refused to exalt, worship and praise God.
Agreed. I never got a satisfactory answer from a Christian or Muslim on how an all good god can brutally punish one simply for not having beliefs without evidence. Last Muslim I spoke to about this told me that God is just saying He will punish you for not believing, to scare you into finding God, but in the end He won't actually punish anyone for non-belief. When I asked, "So, God is a liar?", he responded with, "No, that's just a white lie". :D




Fine. The scenario has changed. I did the evil deeds. I realize what I've done and I feel genuinely sorry for what I did, because it affected not only myself, but the people I did it to. I'm scared of hell. I don't want to be condemned there for eternity. I want to scramble to "find God", so that I can show this genuine remorse, and see if he'll help me.

Do you think God would then consider that true repentance, as it's outlined as we know it in the Holy book?
I'll do my best to answer how an omniscient being thinks :cool::
No, I don't think scrambling to find God to get into Heaven would get you there. The motivation and lack of really being genuine would be obvious to an omniscient being.


What about people born with mental defects that have no concept of what remorse even is? Will they be forgiven because they are missing something in their brains that would allow them to feel bad about things they have done?
For the record, KillSwitch_J, I'm an atheist. Just letting you know that I was responding to trying to fool an omniscient being on a hypothetical level, and not one who believes in God/gods.

How would an all good, omniscient god treat that type of person and keep His words as written in the Bible? I don't know. I don't know enough about what exactly the Bible says about the little details involving forgiveness and I know nothing about how an omniscient being would deal with that situation.

Well, that's all fine and dandy, but why not just make the soul of the unbeliever cease to exist? Why sentence them to torture for all eternity?

As far as I'm concerned, any God who will send innocents to hell simply for not believing in him is a terrible monster, and not worth my worship.

Good question, a lot of Christians actually believe this is what happens and there are some Bible verses that support that theory.

I haven't done much reading into the arguments for either theory; however, it's safe to say that it's better to have eternal life with God than to die in your sins (regardless of whether or not this means being destroyed or being kept alive in hell).

Someone who commits murders but repents and accepts Jesus Christ will go to heaven, but someone who lives a "good" life but rejects Jesus Christ will go to hell.

People are not saved by their good works (Ephesians 2:8-9), only God's grace and their faith.

It's not so much a matter of God choosing to condemn people to hell as it is God only choosing to give eternal life & salvation to those who believe him.

God doesn't owe anyone anything. He's already given everyone 1 life here on Earth. Why should he give someone an additional life in heaven if they won't even acknowledge his existance?



hmmm that makes a lot of sense, i've always beleived in god and jesus christ, but yet i question why does this happen? and now i actually understand why because of what you just said when you put "god doesn't owe us anything" it's true, i hated god for days because i spent most of my life trying to be good at football and my senior year i ended up with a 1-8 season and i blamed him completly and just kept yelling why why, i didnt do anything wrong why did i deserve this? so i guess i kind of understand how things work better now

Someone who commits murders but repents and accepts Jesus Christ will go to heaven, but someone who lives a "good" life but rejects Jesus Christ will go to hell.

People are not saved by their good works (Ephesians 2:8-9), only God's grace and their faith.

It's not so much a matter of God choosing to condemn people to hell as it is God only choosing to give eternal life & salvation to those who believe him.

God doesn't owe anyone anything. He's already given everyone 1 life here on Earth. Why should he give someone an additional life in heaven if they won't even acknowledge his existance?

Shut the fuck up.

hmmm that makes a lot of sense, i've always beleived in god and jesus christ, but yet i question why does this happen? and now i actually understand why because of what you just said when you put "god doesn't owe us anything" it's true, i hated god for days because i spent most of my life trying to be good at football and my senior year i ended up with a 1-8 season and i blamed him completly and just kept yelling why why, i didnt do anything wrong why did i deserve this? so i guess i kind of understand how things work better now

God doesn't owe you anything, but he did promise you a lot of stuff (prayer moves mountains, endless mercy, etc.)

It doesn't make a difference anymore anyway. The Catholic Church officially believes that hell doesn't exist anymore, only purgatory after people questioned whether it was fair if someone who was only just bad enough to go to hell should be treated on a par with someone supremely evil, like Hitler for example. Although this has failed to filter down to the layity.