This is similar to the "Is god real" thread. It is from the same website:
http://www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html

But I like this one better, because atleast this lady laid out her points with bullets. BULLETS!! Unfortunately, the arguments seemed to be either openly vacuous or ignoring any possible rebuttals in order to hide them. So, I'm going to fly through them making a few points. Others feel free to add rebuttals OR please support the author's points if you support her views.


1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

Watchmaker argument, need I say more. Furthermore, it just seems silly at its very core. The only possibility for even doubting or philosophizing on god is that intelligence exists through life. IE, the opposite isn't even possible.
She states:

"The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.3 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life."

If it were any different, yes there would be no life, no intelligence and no possibility of even asking these questions. Could a universe exist with no intelligence and there still be a god? Yes, in fact our universe was once like this.


2. Does God exist? The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it.

Basically same response as in #1. My point is this, I could build a program that randomly creates virtural universes, with very little order and no real intelligence or reason behind it. Say it builds 1,000 universes and they each play out 50 billion 'virtual years'. Let's say 999 of them fail to produce anything meaningful. But one does produce thinking entities that question their existence and come up with a similar watchmaker argument that their must be an intelligent creator behind their existence. They, as this lady does, are looking at everything backwards. Its not necessary that there be an intelligent designer for intelligence/complexity to exist, only that intelligence is required to question whether such an intelligent designer could possibly exist.
Also, there are thought to be more planets/stars in the universe that grains of salt that cover all the beaches on the entire earth and (so far) it seems only one just happens to have the right conditions to produce life. It just happens to be, not a necessary condition.


3. Does God exist? "Chance" or "natural causes" are insufficient explanations.

This may need some explaining. She says:

"The alternative to God existing is that all that exists around us came about by natural cause and random chance. If someone is rolling dice, the odds of rolling a pair of sixes is one thing. But the odds of spots appearing on blank dice is something else. What Pasteur attempted to prove centuries ago, science confirms, that life cannot arise from non-life. Where did human, animal, plant life come from?"

Her first point seems fairly vacuous. I mean gee, natural explanation just happens to completely succeed at the other 99% of scientific observations, but not when it comes to god! Again, the argument from #1 and #2 seems to crop up for a third reincarnation. As for Pasteur, well Miller-Urey made a good experiment and many similar arguments are out there for the explanation of abiogenesis, though admittedly nothing is verified as of yet.


4. Does God exist? To state with certainty that there is no God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is a God.

WOW. Begging the question ftw. The blind leading the blind.


5. Does God exist? We know God exists because he pursues us. He is constantly initiating and seeking for us to come to him.

Another vacuous statement. You can believe this if you want to interpret things as such. I think the flying spaghetti monster is pursuing me through his noodly appendages and his many various pasta products, but it doesn't make it so.


6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God pursuing us.

"Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at him. "

You see.
p1) Jesus's word said that god existed
p2) Jesus's word is the word of god
p3) this is so because Jesus said he was giving us the word of god
c) god must exist, because the word of god said god exists and besides HOW ELSE COULD IT BE THE WORD OF GOD IF HE DIDN'T EXIST??

You did a pretty good job of refuting her points, but I'd like to specify that:
The earth's size can vary quite a bit, actually... as long as it can hold nitrogen it's safe enough to have life; and holding nitrogen is pretty easy. A much better argument would be the fine-tuned universe argument, which scientists have yet to get around without having to resort to metaphysics. Jupiter doesn't have an atmosphere; it is by definition a pure gas. Earth would have to be pretty damn large to have hydrogen. The anthropic principle explains away pretty much any probability argument any theist can throw at you.

Why would you post this, to show off your debating skills? These are pretty common arguments.

Two-fold. First, I was reading it and thinking about points I would make if I were engaging her live. So, I thought I might as well put them down on paper. Second, if I'm going to do that, I'd rather post it and see if there are better arguments or I am completely wrong and my reasoning is poor. Yes, her arguments are pretty common, but I found it interesting that she stated she used to be an atheist and THESE are the reasons for her conversion. Quite amazing.

Nice work. I very much like your syllogism at the end.

Maybe a writeup of common arguments for God, along with their textbook rebuttals would make a nice sticky, or something to reference in other threads.

God's fuck ups.....We develop more teeth later in life, but because of our relatively flat skulls, they collide with other teeth and become painful (wisdom teeth)

Body hair is unattractive and doesn't insulate our bodies, but it still develops

When the testes move out of a fetal male body, they create two weak spots on the body that make the human susceptible to herneas (sp?).


This is just a sample of the poor design within the human body. This leads to only logical two scenarios: No God, or a flawed God.

The basic facts of the matter are that "God" as defined regularly is an internally inconsistent (human, wouldn't you say?) morally abhorrent asshole that logically cannot exist in reality. There is *no* evidence to suggest otherwise, therefore asserting that "He" exists is not only incorrect, but quite foolish.

I mean, it's really fucking simple when you look at it.

Person A asserts something completely insane
Person B asks for evidence
Person A bullshits for a little while using all kinds of logical fallacies
Person B refutes all that, concludes that Person A is nuts

Dan Dennett talks about religious belief at TED.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/116

Dan Dennett talks about religious belief at TED.

http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/116

Ahh TED!! Very good post, I almost forgot to watch the past year's videos. Some of them are wackos, but 90% of the speakers are big names with something interesting to say.

Dan Dennett talks about religious belief at TED.

Rockin'.

Dan Dennett Multi-Media Directory (http://www.reitstoen.com/dennett.php)

Ahh, thank you for that!

everything spawned out of a random fucking happening. if you don't think it can happen, go outside and try to figure out where the first blade of grass came from.

The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.

There are an infinite number of planets that exist. At least one planet had to have the conditions that ours does.

The human brain's complexity shows a higher intelligence behind it.

Evolution. A dog has a brain very similar to us. So does a monkey. Simple: The first brain was incredibly primitive. It could only control the movement of the organism, nothing more. Than a mutation occured. That mutation enabled that particular organism to survive and adapt to its environment more effectively than any other organism. IT SURVIVED. IT REPRODUCED. Now, all of the organisms have that quality. Another mutation occurs. Etc, etc, etc.

"Chance" or "natural causes" are insufficient explanations.

Spots appearing on a blank die? The only spot that ever formed was some hydrogen atoms. Life formed from complex organic molecules. Everything is built on top of that. The theists' idea of us just being made from NOTHING is ludicrus.

To state with certainty that there is no God, a person has to ignore the passion of an enormously vast number of people who are convinced that there is a God.

Yeah. Following the pack, great idea. You know the Nazis followed one guy, and look what happened.
/stupidity.

Anyway, just because a ton of people believe it doesn't mean it is true. People thought that objects had spirits in them, and that is why objects accelerated towards the Earth. EVERYONE THOUGH THAT. Then a guy came along, and said GRAVITY. All of the religious establishments denied it.

What I don't get is that christians don't realize that the bible and their arguments for why they're right are so full of logical fallacies that an English teacher would blow her fucking brains out just to ease the pain. But, I digress. I guess logic and rationally isn't a byproduct of the christian faith.

freeRadical

What I don't get is that christians don't realize that the bible and their arguments for why they're right are so full of logical fallacies that an English teacher would blow her fucking brains out just to ease the pain. But, I digress. I guess logic and rationally isn't a byproduct of the christian faith.

freeRadical

A better conclusion would be to say that logic and rationality isn't a byproduct or religious dogmatism. A good christian would try to learn from the bible, but only an ignorant person would try to justify historical fables and stories with good old reason.

God...christians let the faith lose so much meaning when they try to explain why the world is 12000 years old instead of why "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" is the greatest and truest statement in history.

Love God, be humble, keep and open mind, and preach. Dont argue over the petty.

So far in life, I have found no evidence of a God's existance, however, I know that humanities knowledge is limited and it's actually an impossibility to say that God does or doesn't exist. Christians have way to much pride in themselves if they say that they know, and non-believers are pretty ignorant to say they know because they can't find evidence, as an all powerful being might leave none. Argue till your blue in the face, but all we know is that we don't know and most likely never will while still alive, and if you don't go to heaven you'll be dead and won't know it doesn't exist either. There is no solution.