Log in

View Full Version : Why won't god heal amputees?


KikoSanchez
2007-11-13, 06:13
http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/video.htm

I watched a couple of the videos, but the one on why no one can get into heaven was especially interesting. The author is quite logical and makes a lot of sense. He just adds to talking points I already have when debating theists, though mostly of the Christian specie.

Quageschi
2007-11-13, 06:55
Test of faith, duh.

ArmsMerchant
2007-11-13, 20:55
Sufficiently enlightened amputees could heal themselves.

23
2007-11-13, 21:07
His connection of God and the horshoe is a bit flawed because the horshoe is a tangible object while God is not.

AngryFemme
2007-11-14, 01:31
Sufficiently enlightened amputees could heal themselves.

C'mon Arms. They may heal emotionally, but they can't very well will their limbs back into place.

crazy maniac
2007-11-14, 03:31
its a proven fact that if you wish hard enough it'll come true, it must be true it says so in the bible.

Surak
2007-11-14, 03:45
"Test of faith, duh."

The ultimate cop out for an omnipotent being.

FunkyZombie
2007-11-14, 05:44
Simple.
God won't heal amputees because God is a dick.

firekitty751
2007-11-15, 04:36
They have good points.

But the Jesus is imaginary thing is stupid. That doesn't prove he's imaginary, just that he's probably not the son of god and the people who followed his word twisted and perverted his beliefs.

I'm sure he was probably a good person and had good intentions, but I don't believe that he was the son of god.

DuckWarri0r
2007-11-15, 13:43
Sufficiently enlightened amputees could heal themselves.
A+ horse shit congratulations.

Agent 008
2007-11-15, 14:41
They have good points.

But the Jesus is imaginary thing is stupid. That doesn't prove he's imaginary, just that he's probably not the son of god and the people who followed his word twisted and perverted his beliefs.

I'm sure he was probably a good person and had good intentions, but I don't believe that he was the son of god.

Exactly. People are taking everything Jesus said literally. And you never know if his apostles who wrote the stories understood what he said and didn't interpret it in a dumb way.

E.g. this "ask God for something, believe that you will receive it, and you'll get it". This stuff shouldn't be taken literally. What it means is that if you believe in yourself, in your abilities, and believe that you can reach your goal, you will. If you don't take the challenge, you've already lost it.

Read "The Master and Margaret" by Bulgakov, you'll see what I mean. Excellent book as well, so even if you're not interested in this sort of things, still read it, it's great.

---Beany---
2007-11-15, 15:05
If god solved everybodys problems we would not evolve.
He doesn't heal amputies in the same way he doesn't help you cheat on your school exams.

You are a better person from working through your problems and disabilities.

Agent 008
2007-11-15, 15:27
If god solved everybodys problems we would not evolve.
He doesn't heal amputies in the same way he doesn't help you cheat on your school exams.

You are a better person from working through your problems and disabilities.

There hasn't been any verifiable interference of God into our business in the last 1970 years. If God existed back then, chances are we're now abandonware and he's taken some other project. Or he is dead. Or there was no God all along.

And if God doesn't take part in our business, then believing or not in him won't make any difference at all.

BrokeProphet
2007-11-15, 20:43
Simple.
God won't heal amputees because God is a dick.

^^^^This.

God is a dick b/c he punishes children for the inequities of the parent. So much for just, kind and fair.

Agent 008
2007-11-15, 20:56
^^^^This.

God is a dick b/c he punishes children for the inequities of the parent. So much for just, kind and fair.

Who said that God is just, kind and fair? God did, through the Bible etc. Anyone else? No. See the problem with that?

BrokeProphet
2007-11-15, 21:27
Who said that God is just, kind and fair? God did, through the Bible etc. Anyone else? No. See the problem with that?

What problem?

Agent 008
2007-11-15, 22:14
What problem?

Stalin told his people that he was super-awesome too, and they believed him. Same with Hitler.

In truth, when someone claims that he is super-awesome, and destroys the opposition that may want to criticise it (think Lucifer), you should think twice before believing said person, and think for yourself. If he is afraid of criticism, maybe he's not that awesome after all?

BrokeProphet
2007-11-15, 22:21
I do not believe god exists at all. I simply like to point out the failings of the bible in an effort to riducule theists into disbelief.

Jove
2007-11-16, 22:33
because "god" is a human construct....

Mellow_Fellow
2007-11-16, 23:41
Sufficiently enlightened amputees could heal themselves.

Which is assuming that human beings can access powers of the divine which can regrow limbs etc.

Sure, les Science brigade can't DISPROVE you on this one, but it seems a mighty odd thing to say.

I guess you get 'round the problem of miracle/no miracle though...

Some might say that God works his miracles in the world, but that we're just not aware of them. Using this logic, every day when someone doesn't loose a limb could have been a potential miraculous intervention by God. That might not be "healing" the amputees, as such, however.

The actual legless individuals (drown the pain with rum?) though... God hasn't regrown their legs many times, and they sure aint got that wonderful Lizard-tail Shamanic power which lets them wake up with a lovely new set of pins.

Someone's already said the "test of faith" thing -- God cannot interact in the world in situations such as this, merely because doing so would be intervening in the natural order. We're assuming that there are however situations where God DOES break the "natural order" - but picky n choosy he is indeed! Imo, the Catholic Church gets itself into a right muddle with this. You've got miraculously healed individuals at Lourdes, but a God who isn't actively clearing up human crap and mistakes, as that impinges upon our free will. So which is it? If God does not act to reduce suffering, he is tolerating that "evil" in the world which He doesn't want..... if he does act, he challenges his very nature, as omnipotent, omniscient etc etc.

Even bigger problem now! God could act, to change the world, there by on some level admitting He's let something go wrong which needs to be rectified (challenge to perfection/unchanging nature - ). On the other hand, he could sit back and let unfold what he already knew would happen anyway...... which doesn't make him loving (challenge to omnibenevolance).

I think the website link is simplistic and yet more fairly juvenile philosophy, but hey, they make some damn good points. If Christian philosophers can't even agree on this one at all..... i dunno how anyone else can really, from a theological point of view! ;)

Meanwhile though.... the legs and arms are staying fairly certainly non-existent, despite what some might believe or have faith in. Or maybe..... Alaska doesn't have any armless kiddies, cos they all know "THE SECRET" :eek:

Oh deary deary, what a spot of bother.

Agent 008
2007-11-17, 00:04
Which is assuming that human beings can access powers of the divine which can regrow limbs etc.

Sure, les Science brigade can't DISPROVE you on this one, but it seems a mighty odd thing to say.

I guess you get 'round the problem of miracle/no miracle though...

Some might say that God works his miracles in the world, but that we're just not aware of them. Using this logic, every day when someone doesn't loose a limb could have been a potential miraculous intervention by God. That might not be "healing" the amputees, as such, however.

The actual legless individuals (drown the pain with rum?) though... God hasn't regrown their legs many times, and they sure aint got that wonderful Lizard-tail Shamanic power which lets them wake up with a lovely new set of pins.

Someone's already said the "test of faith" thing -- God cannot interact in the world in situations such as this, merely because doing so would be intervening in the natural order. We're assuming that there are however situations where God DOES break the "natural order" - but picky n choosy he is indeed! Imo, the Catholic Church gets itself into a right muddle with this. You've got miraculously healed individuals at Lourdes, but a God who isn't actively clearing up human crap and mistakes, as that impinges upon our free will. So which is it? If God does not act to reduce suffering, he is tolerating that "evil" in the world which He doesn't want..... if he does act, he challenges his very nature, as omnipotent, omniscient etc etc.

Even bigger problem now! God could act, to change the world, there by on some level admitting He's let something go wrong which needs to be rectified (challenge to perfection/unchanging nature - ). On the other hand, he could sit back and let unfold what he already knew would happen anyway...... which doesn't make him loving (challenge to omnibenevolance).

I think the website link is simplistic and yet more fairly juvenile philosophy, but hey, they make some damn good points. If Christian philosophers can't even agree on this one at all..... i dunno how anyone else can really, from a theological point of view! ;)

Meanwhile though.... the legs and arms are staying fairly certainly non-existent, despite what some might believe or have faith in. Or maybe..... Alaska doesn't have any armless kiddies, cos they all know "THE SECRET" :eek:

Oh deary deary, what a spot of bother.

The thing is.. I don't think we can base our concept of God on what's in the various "Holy" writings. Those were created by humans - you can say that God was whispering into their ears and they wrote what He said, but that would seem odd. Why did he "whisper" different things to different groups of people throughout the world? Makes little sense.

However, that doesn't disprove some sort of a God existing.

Simple example: let's say, we figure out where human consciousness comes from, and manage to simulate it in some sort of a computer system.
Then we stick said consciousness in multiple instances into some virtual world, that was built from the basics according to some fundamental laws - so this world is perfectly "reasonable" and "complete" to an observer from within.

Now, a "person" in this world may walk around, explore this world, work out the laws that his world behaves with, and this person would laugh into the faces of other people who believe in God, saying that there is no place for God in his world and that their arguments are illogical and pure bullshit.

But the thing is, there is a God - the guy who operates this computer system. He is in a completely different realm, and the people inside this computer world could never get into this other world or even imagine it's existence. Yet, the guy who operates the system can in fact "whisper" stuff into the ears of people in his world, and gently influence the events that happen in this world, all the while making sure that they have no proof of their world being affected by external powers.

And there you go, we get our God, perfectly real, logical and explainable. He may not be the ideal that we want to believe him to be (or that He wants us to believe him to be), but he is there and he is real.

So, with all my respect to the atheists, there is a possibility that you guys could be wrong. Of course, the religious people who believe in the God they created and build their lives around that are wrong either.

The right thing to do, in my opinion, is to not rely on God but on one's self, and just get on with this life.

Ratbert
2007-11-17, 00:06
Meanwhile though.... the legs and arms are staying fairly certainly non-existent, despite what some might believe or have faith in. Or maybe..... Alaska doesn't have any armless kiddies, cos they all know "THE SECRET"

Well the limbs aren't non-existant, as much as they aren't attached; Unless they got vaporized. ^_^







Minions Attack!

Agent 008
2007-11-17, 00:10
Well the limbs aren't non-existant, as much as they aren't attached; Unless they got vaporized. ^_^


Heh.. would you want to have your rotten one-year old amputated limb back?

On a side note, can't believe how slow our biology skills are improving. I mean, we pretty much know how all our cells work, why can't we just force a new leg to grow out, or just grow one in a lab and attach it to the body? It's about time, come on, let's do it.

Mellow_Fellow
2007-11-17, 00:14
Heh.. would you want to have your rotten one-year old amputated limb back?

On a side note, can't believe how slow our biology skills are improving. I mean, we pretty much know how all our cells work, why can't we just force a new leg to grow out, or just grow one in a lab and attach it to the body? It's about time, come on, let's do it.

God keeps nicking all the latest research papers, man! :mad:

"tough luck Jimmy, your leg's up here in heaven with me n Jeebus now. YOU LOSE!"

flatplat
2007-11-19, 10:29
Simple.
God won't heal amputees because God is a dick.


Or he enjoys a good laugh, like the rest of us.

RoFallandbreakyourHypnol
2007-11-19, 20:43
amputees lost their limbs as punishment for their sins

BrokeProphet
2007-11-19, 20:46
Heh.. would you want to have your rotten one-year old amputated limb back?

On a side note, can't believe how slow our biology skills are improving. I mean, we pretty much know how all our cells work, why can't we just force a new leg to grow out, or just grow one in a lab and attach it to the body? It's about time, come on, let's do it.

Stem cell research and human cloning could provide such answers. More progressive and less theistic dominated countries will realize this before the United States will.

Remember kids, Jesus is the ONLY one who can make the lame walk and the blind see, and the church aims to keep it that way. Good work sheep.

Agent 008
2007-11-19, 21:00
amputees lost their limbs as punishment for their sins

Correction: for the sins of their grand-grand-parents 7 generations up.

Why should someone's grand-grand-children 7 generations down be responsible for something someone did centuries ago I have no idea.

TheBlackPope
2007-11-19, 21:02
http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/video.htm

I watched a couple of the videos, but the one on why no one can get into heaven was especially interesting. The author is quite logical and makes a lot of sense. He just adds to talking points I already have when debating theists, though mostly of the Christian specie.


Your stupid, he hates amputees, that is why they have been amputated. Why would he heal them?

Deoz
2007-11-19, 21:07
Quoted for hypocrisy.
You're stupid, he hates amputees, that is why they have been amputated. Why would he heal them?

TruthWielder
2007-11-19, 21:08
Life and God dont make magical random things for the hell of it or based on whim. Any person who has suffered through anything long enough will come to understand that accepting it and empowering yourself through suffering yields better effects than wishing the suffering had never occured/was reversed.

You guys need to grow up a tad.

psychomanthis
2007-11-19, 21:22
Because god doesn't exist.

Deoz
2007-11-19, 21:28
The thing is.. I don't think we can base our concept of God on what's in the various "Holy" writings. Those were created by humans - you can say that God was whispering into their ears and they wrote what He said, but that would seem odd. Why did he "whisper" different things to different groups of people throughout the world? Makes little sense.
e illogical and pure bullshit.

I think you mean breathe into, not whisper.

Anyway, the concept of God made from the bible is called the Judeo-Christian God. So you see, a concept of God can be based on the 'holy' writings.


But the thing is, there is a God - the guy who operates this computer system

That person is a result of evolution, such an intelligent and complex creature that it would only appear to be a God to the people of it's virtual realm.

He came into existence naturally, and created the virtual realm naturally. Not a God.



The right thing to do, in my opinion, is to not rely on God but on one's self, and just get on with this life.

Then there's no reason to mention a God at all. :p

BrokeProphet
2007-11-19, 21:31
Life and God dont make magical random things for the hell of it or based on whim. Any person who has suffered through anything long enough will come to understand that accepting it and empowering yourself through suffering yields better effects than wishing the suffering had never occured/was reversed.

Tell me again how God empowers a 4 year old by "gifting" her with terminal brain cancer?

Maybe he has punished the parents for their transgresions or even their great-great grandparents transgressions (that is a KNOWN tactic of God).

Perhaps he is trying to empower the parents to be better people by overcoming the adversity of watching their child die a slow an painful death?

MAYBE.........shit happens in life and adult children turn to an imaginary friend and a fantasy world to cope with it.

You guys need to grow up a tad.

I am not the one with an imaginary friend.

TheBlackPope
2007-11-19, 21:31
Quoted for hypocrisy.

That was a joke you dumb cunt. Jesus, you are indeed stupid.



I am not the one with an imaginary friend.

Tell me again how God empowers a 4 year old by "gifting" her with terminal brain cancer?

Maybe he has punished the parents for their transgresions or even their great-great grandparents transgressions (that is a KNOWN tactic of God).

Perhaps he is trying to empower the parents to be better people by overcoming the adversity of watching their child die a slow an painful death?

MAYBE.........shit happens in life an children turn to an imaginary friend and a fantasy world to cope with it.


Have you ever wondered that if God were real that maybe he wouldn't interact w/ the world? Have you ever thought about that? Can you really deny His existance on the theory that if he were real he wouldn't allow bad things to happen to his creations? I guess you can deny his existance on that ignorant-spic like theory, but hey, to each his own.

I don't mind atheist that can actually think through something like this. But you obviously cant. Shut the fuck up faggot.

Deoz
2007-11-19, 21:37
That was a joke you dumb cunt.

But nonetheless, you called him stupid and I called you out on it, that was a joke. Sensitive moron. :p

BrokeProphet
2007-11-19, 21:43
I don't mind atheist that can actually think through something like this. But you obviously cant. Shut the fuck up faggot.

Should I feed it.....

You obviously did not get the jist of my post. I DO NOT believe in God and DO NOT simply believe he does not exist or feel that I have any proof of this non-existence by pointing out the MANY flaws found within the tenents of religion.

I simply pointed out that the "god works in mysterious ways" idea is a total cop-out for when bad shit happens. Get ready for supper little fella....Yo momma so fat....fuck it I don't have the desire to banter with an obvious cunt like you.

TruthWielder
2007-11-19, 22:13
Tell me again how God empowers a 4 year old by "gifting" her with terminal brain cancer?

Maybe he has punished the parents for their transgresions or even their great-great grandparents transgressions (that is a KNOWN tactic of God).

Perhaps he is trying to empower the parents to be better people by overcoming the adversity of watching their child die a slow an painful death?

MAYBE.........shit happens in life and adult children turn to an imaginary friend and a fantasy world to cope with it.



I am not the one with an imaginary friend.

First, dont put words in my mouth you pretentious psuedo-intellectual. I'm personally of the belief that only an individual is solely repsonsible for their life and their destiny. Otherwise, purpose, meaning, existence and truth are irrelevant. Bringing up the 4 year old? I find it to be a major cop out when you present to me a sob story and expect despair. You pussy.

A 4 year old with terminal brain cancer is like any living being; physically flawed and mentally challenged. Her life, short or long, cruel or blissful (relative terms) contains the same objective worth, love, potential, and meaning as the 4 year old girl born with a silver spoon in her mouth perfectly healthy. I find it completely arrogant to ask the universe "why?" and feel shortchanged out of an answer as you feel is necessary in light of pain. Suffering is ubiquitous, get used to it. Luckily, so is love, reason, and human understanding.

The parents in such a hypothetical situation for their benefit should try to learn and grow as opposed to laying and despairing. Thats harsh but its true. As much as I hurt and you hurt we have to accept that we always have the choice to make ourselves better and make our situation better and love and hope and spread joy and embody virtue.

Imaginary friend and fantasy world? Your problem is that you are allowing the only definition of God to be an old guy with a robe and a beard in the sky listening to you and pointing his finger. Dont be so juvenile. Fantasy world? I dont even know what youre referring to.

TheBlackPope
2007-11-19, 22:15
[ I ] DO NOT .... feel that I have any proof of this non-existence by pointing out the MANY flaws found within the tenents of religion.

I simply pointed out that the "god works in mysterious ways" idea is a total cop-out for when bad shit happens. Get ready for supper little fella....Yo momma so fat....fuck it I don't have the desire to banter with an obvious cunt like you.

If you dont feel that you need to point out flaws in religion, why do you do so?
If you cant see the hypocrosy, you should a) consider a labotomy and b) look at your previous post...

If you were so confident in your disbelief why would you feel the need to change others? Why can't you just let others live?

I can understand the Evangilist point of view on conversion, they love people and think that they should join salvation. They think they are helping people out. There not debating because their insecure.

You should use better tactics in debate and actually think through what your saying. Look for loopholes, because you just look like an asshole. Faggot.

Agent 008
2007-11-19, 22:17
I think you mean breathe into, not whisper.

Anyway, the concept of God made from the bible is called the Judeo-Christian God. So you see, a concept of God can be based on the 'holy' writings.


That person is a result of evolution, such an intelligent and complex creature that it would only appear to be a God to the people of it's virtual realm.

He came into existence naturally, and created the virtual realm naturally. Not a God.



Then there's no reason to mention a God at all. :p

What I am trying to say is that it is possible for an all-hearing and an all-seeing being that created was the beginning to our world to exist, without it actually being a part of our world.

And I am not going to base my life around God whether He exists or not. To me, it's is purely a theoretical question. I only want to know the answer because I want to know what this world is being all about, where it came from and basically what's going on in the Universe.

KikoSanchez
2007-11-19, 22:41
Your stupid, he hates amputees, that is why they have been amputated. Why would he heal them?

It is simply an argument against why prayer obviously doesn't work. It is not attacking just any general conception of god, simply the judeo-christian conception. Many followers of this conception of god believe that it can be spoken to and will listen/react to their prayers. They also believe that this god loves everyone unconditionally, so they are not amputees because they are hated by this god.

BrokeProphet
2007-11-19, 22:51
First, dont put words in my mouth you pretentious psuedo-intellectual.

LOL. These are your words....

Life and God dont make magical random things for the hell of it or based on whim.

Which implies a meaning behind random things, does it not? I simply asked you the meaning or purpose a God would have behind a 4 year old with brain cancer. After accusing me of putting words in your mouth you go on to say this....

The parents in such a hypothetical situation for their benefit should try to learn and grow as opposed to laying and despairing. Thats harsh but its true. As much as I hurt and you hurt we have to accept that we always have the choice to make ourselves better and make our situation better and love and hope and spread joy and embody virtue..

Which more clearly defines YOUR orignal idea that Life and God do not make magic random things without purpose. I put NO words in your mouth. I agree that the parents in that situation should try to learn and grow and think positive.

I just happen to be of the opinion of attributing the harsh nasty everday gritty shit the world has in store for us as a test of God's faith, working in mysterious ways, and helping us to grow as people, or any other mystical MEANING attributed to totally random shit is foolish.

Your problem is that you are allowing the only definition of God to be an old guy with a robe and a beard in the sky listening to you and pointing his finger. Dont be so juvenile.

YOUR problem is that you HAVE a definition of and a belief in something that is for ALL INTENTS and PURPOSES an IMAGINARY FRIEND. You have as much proof and evidence for a God (no matter how you chose to define it) as a 6 year old does for his imaginary friend. PERIOD.

Vanhalla
2007-11-19, 23:22
First of all, Broke Prophet, you are an idiot, I don't even see why you bother waisting your time posting, I'm thinking of putting you on my ignore list.
Now that I got that out of the way...

Why would god heal amputees?
Assuming we have some form of free will, which I believe, It is possible to make better decisions and avoid the whole situation. Of course some situations seem very difficult to avoid, like a brain tumor or whatever. But this event has already occurred and it seems pointless to dwell over your disability. This isn't the end of the world, it's a new beginning, you now get to see reality from a different perspective. People who send out negative energies all the time tend to receive negative energies, the more you dwell over it and say, "If only I skipped work that day." or whatever, less thought will go into the present and what you want to do with this new situation. There is no 'good' or 'bad' in the grand scheme of things, there are choices that will lead you to 'higher' levels of thinking and choices that will lead you to 'lower' levels of thinking. These different levels of thinking determine your reality.

You could however use positive thinking to get a new mechanical limb. You just gotta adapt to your new situation, and direct your will down the path that you feel is in tune with your highest purpose.

BrokeProphet
2007-11-19, 23:37
I guess what the OP is saying there Van is that there is NO MAGIC today like there obviously was, to a fundamentalist bible thumper, in the good book, or back in the day.

Guess from there it could be implied that the OP is saying..."What a pantload, how can dipshits like you believe in this garbage." I am just para-phrasing here and drawing my own conclusions from the OP.

As to your unprovoked ad hominem...do whatever you need to validate your own intelligence and worth. If calling me an idiot makes you feel better b/c you get your ass handed to you in a debate with me...then by all means ad hominem away.

Please do not ignore me, however, as I would appreciate your comments to help validate me...........Get fucked.

Deoz
2007-11-20, 00:06
What I am trying to say is that it is possible for an all-hearing and an all-seeing being that created was the beginning to our world to exist, without it actually being a part of our world.

Well then that wasn't a good analogy because both belonged to the same natural world.

Vanhalla
2007-11-20, 02:54
If you think this video disproves magick then you're probably thinking of magick in the wrong way.
Magick - the art of focusing your will and emotions to effect change in the world around you and the world within you.
A spell is a more technical version of a prayer.

The 3 basic ingredients in making a spell are:
1. Altering consciousness
2. Focusing Will
3. Directing Energy

You don't just ask for something and it appears, it works on a more personal level. No matter how perfectly you execute a spell technically, if you do not have an energetic connection to the universe on some level, little will happen. Most spells are designed to help you make that energetic connection, but they are not fool proof.
The amount of will and energy required to make six dies roll six sixes, is astronomical.
An easier way to test it is by making an alarm clock spell. I'm not going to get into the details but basically you set your intent to wake up on time without an external alarm.
It will work and has worked for me, if you're unexperienced with the 3 ingredients of a spell then chances are it wont work for you.
That is just one of many ways this can be applied.

The majority of those who pray are driven by ego, magick works on a level beyond the ego.

TruthWielder
2007-11-20, 03:31
LOL. These are your words....



Which implies a meaning behind random things, does it not? I simply asked you the meaning or purpose a God would have behind a 4 year old with brain cancer. After accusing me of putting words in your mouth you go on to say this....



Which more clearly defines YOUR orignal idea that Life and God do not make magic random things without purpose. I put NO words in your mouth. I agree that the parents in that situation should try to learn and grow and think positive.

I just happen to be of the opinion of attributing the harsh nasty everday gritty shit the world has in store for us as a test of God's faith, working in mysterious ways, and helping us to grow as people, or any other mystical MEANING attributed to totally random shit is foolish.



YOUR problem is that you HAVE a definition of and a belief in something that is for ALL INTENTS and PURPOSES an IMAGINARY FRIEND. You have as much proof and evidence for a God (no matter how you chose to define it) as a 6 year old does for his imaginary friend. PERIOD.

Ok. Answered questions. The exact meaning behind cancer in a four year old? No idea. I dont claim to know or understand the ebb and flow of time, causation, and exact meaning behind a specific event or factor in ones life. I am only able to point out to what I observe to be self evident principles of existence.

Saying you grow as a person in light of suffering is not based on religion therefore rethink the claim that its foolish to say so. I agree that "its Gods test" or "he works in mysterious ways" is not an answer. I am aware that I am ignorant of the universe's design.

About my "problem", if your saying recognizing an eternal and universal will behind all that flows, occurs, and exists and noting that as a part of this will (due to the interconnectedness of existence) my will effects it and thus my existence, if that means I believe in an "imaginary friend" then so be it. That still sounds pretty narrow in my eyes and it sounds like you want to purposely blind yourself.

As far as proof goes, you have an equal amount of proof that "God"(however you define it) does not exist. I am aware of my ignorance in the spectrum of this arguement. This makes you...a pretentious psuedo-intellectual. Period.

TheBlackPope
2007-11-20, 05:55
It is simply an argument against why prayer obviously doesn't work. It is not attacking just any general conception of god, simply the judeo-christian conception. Many followers of this conception of god believe that it can be spoken to and will listen/react to their prayers. They also believe that this god loves everyone unconditionally, so they are not amputees because they are hated by this god.

I should have made my self more clear the first time, this was a joke. JK dawg?

I am a Christian. I read the new testament bible. Not all Christians believe that God will react to their prayers. Most probally believe that He will listen, but def. not all will believe that he will react. You are generalizing. This is like saying Christians are stupid for believing in Creationism. Not all xtians believe that, and I doubt the majority do.

God does love everyone unconditionally. He even loves Jews, for w/e reason. He even loves sinning assholes like myself and you.

KikoSanchez
2007-11-20, 08:19
The amount of will and energy required to make six dies roll six sixes, is astronomical.


No, the odds of rolling six die roll six sixes is astronomical. No matter what you think or believe, the atoms in the universe don't give a flip about your intent or what you want to happen. Surely if there is some great magick-doer out there, he can roll this combination back to back, no? No, because it's bs to think you can impose your intent, which is intangible, onto atoms in the universe. Intent only manifests itself in behavior, but your intent/desire/will to throw this combination can't determine the outcome, all you can do is throw the die and hope you get extremely lucky.



An easier way to test it is by making an alarm clock spell. I'm not going to get into the details but basically you set your intent to wake up on time without an external alarm.
It will work and has worked for me, if you're unexperienced with the 3 ingredients of a spell then chances are it wont work for you.
That is just one of many ways this can be applied.

The majority of those who pray are driven by ego, magick works on a level beyond the ego.

Lol, you think this is "magick"? Lots of people do this, it's simple biology and mental alertness. But if this is all "magick" is, why even speak of it?


Nonetheless, the original point stands, that prayer does not truly work. Neither does magick when it comes to healing amputees. Thus there is no real magic in the universe if something extraordinary can't be shown to be its effect.

TheBlackPope
2007-11-20, 08:34
...prayer does not truly work.


Well, this is stupid.

When stating this, you have to ask your self what is the objective for prayer.

Then you will realize that it depends on the individual and their circumstances.

Some pray to feel better about telling God of their daily sins. If they feel better after this confesion, then yes, prayer does truly work, and you are wrong.

Some might pray to not be an amputee, and obviously, God does not intervene, and yes, prayer does not truly work.

Your argument is not well thought out.

Try to think about sometihng different then spirituality and relgion, your doing a very, very bad job at it.

Vanhalla
2007-11-20, 08:37
Lol, you think this is "magick"? Lots of people do this, it's simple biology and mental alertness. But if this is all "magick" is, why even speak of it?

The point is that because of this 'prayer' you woke up at the time you intended. You changed the outcome of the future by doing a mental ritual in the past. This is but one example of magick, and it proves that our thoughts influence our reality.

KikoSanchez
2007-11-20, 20:00
Well, this is stupid.

When stating this, you have to ask your self what is the objective for prayer.

Then you will realize that it depends on the individual and their circumstances.

Some pray to feel better about telling God of their daily sins. If they feel better after this confesion, then yes, prayer does truly work, and you are wrong.

Some might pray to not be an amputee, and obviously, God does not intervene, and yes, prayer does not truly work.




In fact, prayer asks for some divine intervention, either asking god for forgiveness, to do this, or do that for them. There is no reason to believe god is the reason for those people feeling better about about confessing. To make this point, I could pray to an inanimate object and confess and still feel better about it. Did I really pray to anything or just talk to myself? I only feel better because of what I did, not any other being. Thus, prayer is not talking to anyone that can do anything for you, thus prayer does not work. To say it works simply because it makes you feel better is conflating the point of what prayer means. It doesn't mean talking to yourself to a religious person.

TheBlackPope
2007-11-20, 20:18
In fact, prayer asks for some divine intervention, either asking god for forgiveness, to do this, or do that for them. There is no reason to believe god is the reason for those people feeling better about about confessing. To make this point, I could pray to an inanimate object and confess and still feel better about it. Did I really pray to anything or just talk to myself? I only feel better because of what I did, not any other being. Thus, prayer is not talking to anyone that can do anything for you, thus prayer does not work. To say it works simply because it makes you feel better is conflating the point of what prayer means. It doesn't mean talking to yourself to a religious person.

No, your wrong, some atheist-monks believe that meditation is a form of prayer. It works if they are meditating on themselves and they are feeling happy because of it.

Surak
2007-11-20, 23:30
"The point is that because of this 'prayer' you woke up at the time you intended. You changed the outcome of the future by doing a mental ritual in the past. This is but one example of magick, and it proves that our thoughts influence our reality."

Thoughts don't influence reality, actions do. If you think about doing an action and then you do it, that's not "magick." That's called being alive.

There needs to be more contempt for doddering assclowns like you that feel the need to assign fairytale excuses and powers to everyday operations.

Vanhalla
2007-11-20, 23:59
Our thoughts influence our actions. It must first manifest in the astral plane before it manifest in the physical. So yes, thoughts do influence our reality and yes we obviously use magick in our daily lives.
The quality of your reality can be increased with a better understanding of magick.

I don't think disrespecting me and the ideas I put forth is a very productive way to go about living, but by all means go ahead and ridicule me. Maybe it will bring forth thoughts that would not have been and help you on your quest of finding your unique path.

Surak
2007-11-21, 06:39
"Our thoughts influence our actions. It must first manifest in the astral plane before it manifest in the physical. "

Oh for fuck's sakes, not this shit again. First, you have to define what the hell the "astral plane" is (I can guess) and then you have to establish that it actually exists, and isn't just another fanciful notion that somebody's pulled out of their ass.

"So yes, thoughts do influence our reality and yes we obviously use magick in our daily lives."

You're just restating your same idiotic assertion, not providing anything solid to back it up.

"The quality of your reality can be increased with a better understanding of magick."

It's as though you've dumped a bucket labeled "dubious assertions" all over your keyboard, and then hit the enter key.

"I don't think disrespecting me and the ideas I put forth is a very productive way to go about living, but by all means go ahead and ridicule me."

You, and people like you, represent a culture of ignorance that thrives on making up useless solutions to real problems, and ones you've also manufactured. You've entrenched superstition as a virtue into the society in which I live, and that culture often rears it's ugly head in it's attempts to subdue the remainder of our society that does not bow down to foolish myths and irrationality.

So yes, calling you people on your bullshit is quite productive for me. I will ridicule your tiresome and childish beliefs, until you can prove that it's more than just average, new age garbage for people without the blood lust to be members of any abrahamic faith.

"Maybe it will bring forth thoughts that would not have been and help you on your quest of finding your unique path."

Logic and rationality serves me (and everyone else) quite well, thank you.

KikoSanchez
2007-11-21, 07:53
No, your wrong, some atheist-monks believe that meditation is a form of prayer. It works if they are meditating on themselves and they are feeling happy because of it.

Ok, in order to speak sensibly in any way, we use words. Words have definitions and common meaning, so that we may have structured communication and sensible debate. You are equivocating the term 'prayer' as used in the original post. By 'prayer' the common understanding is as such:
communicating with God or other being: the act or practice of making spoken or unspoken communication with God, a deity, or a saint

If they are simply meditating to themselves, this is not prayer as per the definition being used. Thus my point stands. If you want to go about using other definitions of prayer, we could just consider anything as such and say see PRAYER works, but this is an equivocation fallacy.


Just for clarification: the original post, about a video (if you watched it) is directed toward the Christian faith, thus the talk about prayer is prayer in a Christian sense.

Vanhalla
2007-11-21, 08:48
Oh for fuck's sakes, not this shit again. First, you have to define what the hell the "astral plane" is (I can guess) and then you have to establish that it actually exists, and isn't just another fanciful notion that somebody's pulled out of their ass.


The space of collective unconsciousness, the realm that links the thoughts and minds, conscious and unconscious, of not only humanity but all beings on Earth. This place is beyond time and space. We experience this dimension as a dream world or astral plane. We can go anywhere or do anything here, limited only by our imagination. Our thoughts and ideas manifest more readily here because, unlike the physical plain, the astral plain is not dense, not bound by the rules of space and time.



You're just restating your same idiotic assertion, not providing anything solid to back it up.

What do you not see? What are you arguing against, that our thoughts don’t influence our reality? Don’t take my word for it, explore your mind and find your own ‘solid backing’.

You, and people like you, represent a culture of ignorance that thrives on making up useless solutions to real problems, and ones you've also manufactured.

If feeing the oneness of the universe and having control over your thoughts and will makes me ignorant then maybe it is you who is indeed ignorant.

You've entrenched superstition as a virtue into the society in which I live, and that culture often rears it's ugly head in it's attempts to subdue the remainder of our society that does not bow down to foolish myths and irrationality.

Sounds a lot like an abrahamic faith.
Superstition has been around much longer then I.

So yes, calling you people on your bullshit is quite productive for me. I will ridicule your tiresome and childish beliefs, until you can prove that it's more than just average, new age garbage for people without the blood lust to be members of any abrahamic faith.

What would it take for you to believe that our thoughts influence our reality?

Surak
2007-11-21, 18:16
"The space of collective unconsciousness, the realm that links the thoughts and minds, conscious and unconscious, of not only humanity but all beings on Earth. This place is beyond time and space. We experience this dimension as a dream world or astral plane. We can go anywhere or do anything here, limited only by our imagination. Our thoughts and ideas manifest more readily here because, unlike the physical plain, the astral plain is not dense, not bound by the rules of space and time."

And let me guess, because this "plane" exists "beyond space and time" (that's a big clue right there that it's bullshit, that kind of crap only works in Star Trek) you can't provide any evidence that it exists?

"What do you not see? What are you arguing against, that our thoughts don’t influence our reality? Don’t take my word for it, explore your mind and find your own ‘solid backing’."

I'm asking you to back up the assertion that there is some kind of astral plane, and that our thoughts directly manipulate reality. You can't just run around asserting insane shit like that and then tell people to find their own evidence for it; the burden of proof is on you. If everyone pulled stupid shit like that, nothing would ever get accomplished.

"If feeing the oneness of the universe"

More vague new age nonsense. There is no "oneness" of the universe. Studies have shown that you feel is no different from when people who love music immerse themselves in their favourite song; there's nothing "magickal" about it. What's more, the human mind has no faculties for interacting directly with the massive energies that exist in the universe, making this yet another dubious assertion.

"and having control over your thoughts and will makes me ignorant then maybe it is you who is indeed ignorant."

No, being full of shit and pulling childish little fantasies out of your ass in order to satisfy your own petty emotional needs, instead of growing some balls and facing the world with a rational mind makes you ignorant.

"Sounds a lot like an abrahamic faith."

And you, and everyone like you only helps those faiths further entrench themselves into society. In short, you're not fucking helping. As long as people think it's ok to concoct and live in little mental fantasy worlds like yours, people will use that to do evil unopposed and for the most idiotic of reasons.

"Superstition has been around much longer then I."

Yes, it certainly has. However, we have long since ceased being bronze-age goat herders who would tremble at every bolt of lighting. The time for making shit up instead of figuring shit out has LONG since passed.

"What would it take for you to believe that our thoughts influence our reality?"

Proof. Despite what so many morons in this forum will tell you, keep in mind that logical fallacies like defining things into existence (This cup is god, and this cup exists, therefore...) and meandering wordplay (what does the word "is" *really* mean?) do not constitute proof.

TheBlackPope
2007-11-21, 18:29
Ok, in order to speak sensibly in any way, we use words. Words have definitions and common meaning, so that we may have structured communication and sensible debate. You are equivocating the term 'prayer' as used in the original post. By 'prayer' the common understanding is as such:
communicating with God or other being: the act or practice of making spoken or unspoken communication with God, a deity, or a saint

If they are simply meditating to themselves, this is not prayer as per the definition being used. Thus my point stands. If you want to go about using other definitions of prayer, we could just consider anything as such and say see PRAYER works, but this is an equivocation fallacy.


Just for clarification: the original post, about a video (if you watched it) is directed toward the Christian faith, thus the talk about prayer is prayer in a Christian sense.


You are right, but still gay none the less.

Vanhalla
2007-11-21, 19:21
...

What is it you do, or enjoy doing? So I can make an example of how you can prove this to your self.

Vanhalla
2007-11-21, 20:14
If they are simply meditating to themselves, this is not prayer as per the definition being used. Thus my point stands. If you want to go about using other definitions of prayer, we could just consider anything as such and say see PRAYER works, but this is an equivocation fallacy.

It is not the same definition, but it has a similar effect. Maybe people who pray to god are actually praying to themselves, they just like to put a face on it.

Surak
2007-11-22, 03:25
"What is it you do, or enjoy doing? So I can make an example of how you can prove this to your self."

I enjoy shutting down baseless assertions.

Garrett
2007-11-22, 07:38
Sufficiently enlightened amputees could heal themselves.

Sufficiently enlightened in the field of stem cell research maybe.

Lundmark
2007-11-22, 18:52
Sufficiently enlightened in the field of stem cell research maybe.
So God = Science?

TheBlackPope
2007-11-22, 18:54
So God = Science?

God created everything. A creation is never on the same line as its creator. So, no, science is not equal to God. Science and math are simply representations of God.

Agent 008
2007-11-22, 19:21
So God = Science?

No. Reverse-engineering God's proprietary closed-source world is science :mad:

BrokeProphet
2007-11-24, 20:08
Science and math are simply representations of God.

WOW.

Then you should have no problem teaching science and math (not creationist bullshit) in the classroom. We still have God in school and country. You fundamentalists can stop your attempted hijacking of America.

Aseren
2007-11-24, 22:19
God created everything. A creation is never on the same line as its creator.

Without the creator there is nothing, a line would be part of the imagination of the creator, in this case, you.

tryss
2007-11-26, 23:08
How is it fair for God to have some babies born with only one arm, or two heads, or three legs? I've seen it happen on the news. Is that supposed to be a joke that God plays on us? It's not funny to have 2 heads. Seriously.

Obbe
2007-11-27, 00:48
How is it fair for God to have some babies born with only one arm, or two heads, or three legs? I've seen it happen on the news. Is that supposed to be a joke that God plays on us? It's not funny to have 2 heads. Seriously.

God contains all possibilities, not just the ones you deem 'fair', or 'good'.

tryss
2007-11-27, 01:36
God contains all possibilities, not just the ones you deem 'fair', or 'good'.

But seriously, how is it fair for God to give some people more opportunities than other? There are kids in Uganda that die everyday. How does that work?

Agent 008
2007-11-27, 02:55
But seriously, how is it fair for God to give some people more opportunities than other? There are kids in Uganda that die everyday. How does that work?

God created man, man started sinning, God realised that his creation was faulty by design but didn't want to admit his mistakes, blamed everything on Satan, was too lazy to redesign people so just slaughtered everyone leaving just a couple, thus forcing evolution, failed again, slaughtered more people, slaughtered some more people, got pissed off by things not solving themselves, stopped caring => the world we have today.

tryss
2007-11-27, 04:21
God created man, man started sinning, God realised that his creation was faulty by design but didn't want to admit his mistakes, blamed everything on Satan, was too lazy to redesign people so just slaughtered everyone leaving just a couple, thus forcing evolution, failed again, slaughtered more people, slaughtered some more people, got pissed off by things not solving themselves, stopped caring => the world we have today.

Oh, I see.

ArmsMerchant
2008-03-17, 18:37
C'mon Arms. They may heal emotionally, but they can't very well will their limbs back into place.

Agreed on the first part; on the second part, why not? For all we know, it has happened already.

Starfish can do it, why NOT domesticated primates?

BrokeProphet
2008-03-17, 19:32
Agreed on the first part; on the second part, why not? For all we know, it has happened already.

Starfish can do it, why NOT domesticated primates?

Because it is impossible to do right now.

It may only become possible through SCIENCE, not through psionic/magical/spiritual ablities.

Magic is a delusion.

truckfixr
2008-03-18, 00:50
There hasn't been any verifiable interference of God into our business in the last 4,500,000,000 years. If God existed back then, chances are we're now abandonware and he's taken some other project. Or he is dead. Or there was no God all along.

And if God doesn't take part in our business, then believing or not in him won't make any difference at all.


fixed

Vanhalla
2008-03-18, 18:41
We haven't even scratched the surface of what the mind is capable of.

Agent 008
2008-03-19, 00:41
We haven't even scratched the surface of what the mind is capable of.

Then again, if our mind is capable of some extraordinary stuff, that most people (all?) don't use in their lifetimes.. how come it doesn't atrophy?

swissblade
2008-03-19, 14:11
Ask yourself this question!

" why should GOD heal amputees? "


there's a reason there are an amputee in the first place.


Its depends on your karma.


also science sucks..

harry_hardcore_hoedown
2008-03-20, 15:20
Amputees have lost their limbs for a reason. It's punishment. Quite simply, they've done something wrong and "god" doesn't want to wait until they're dead to punish them. So he cuts off their limbs, provide them with punishment, and the rest of us with entertainment. Right on, God.

Agent 008
2008-03-20, 15:22
Amputees have lost their limbs for a reason. It's punishment. Quite simply, they've done something wrong and "god" doesn't want to wait until they're dead to punish them. So he cuts off their limbs, provide them with punishment, and the rest of us with entertainment. Right on, God.

Bullshit. Amputees have had their limbs cut off by other humans.

harry_hardcore_hoedown
2008-03-20, 15:54
Bullshit. Amputees have had their limbs cut off by other humans.


Because of shit like gangreen, which God caused. If I were God, and I were pissed off at somebody, and I were just like the current God, I wouldn't just have their limbs fall off inexplicably, I'd give them diabetes and fuck around with their blood sugar.

harry_hardcore_hoedown
2008-03-20, 15:57
Also, I don't actually believe in this "God" character. This is totally hypothetical. If there was a God, this is how he would deal with these fuckers, based on the assumption that this hypothetical deity is what's causing everything to happen the way it does in reality.

Agent 008
2008-03-20, 16:06
Because of shit like gangreen, which God caused. If I were God, and I were pissed off at somebody, and I were just like the current God, I wouldn't just have their limbs fall off inexplicably, I'd give them diabetes and fuck around with their blood sugar.

But isn't God supposed to be all-loving and all-forgiving?

I mean, the whole Christianity is based on the idea that humans are by default good, and that those who are bad to others just need to be loved.
And then there is God, that supposedly punishes people just for not believing in him, no matter how good the people are.

That's one of the reasons why religion doesn't really make sense to me.

godfather89
2008-03-20, 20:35
I remember this video, I couldn't stand the guy for some reason back in my born-again Christian days and sought to disprove his statement, now I just say because "[God]Yahweh wants you to suffer."

Agent 008
2008-03-20, 21:14
I remember this video, I couldn't stand the guy for some reason back in my born-again Christian days and sought to disprove his statement, now I just say because "[God]Yahweh wants you to suffer."

You used Yahweh's name in vain :o

Obbe
2008-03-20, 21:35
Shit happens.

godfather89
2008-03-20, 22:07
You used Yahweh's name in vain :o

LoL, as much I disagree with the man, I like his quote on Yahweh: "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." - Richard Dawkins: The God Delusion

I dont follow Yahweh being a Gnostic... As far as it is concerned to me he [Yahweh] is the devil.

harry_hardcore_hoedown
2008-03-21, 00:53
But isn't God supposed to be all-loving and all-forgiving?

I mean, the whole Christianity is based on the idea that humans are by default good, and that those who are bad to others just need to be loved.
And then there is God, that supposedly punishes people just for not believing in him, no matter how good the people are.

That's one of the reasons why religion doesn't really make sense to me.


If "God" was all-forgiving and all-loving, why does Christianity have a hell?

nshanin
2008-03-21, 01:13
^^^^This.

God is a dick b/c he punishes children for the inequities of the parent. So much for just, kind and fair.

Until we make some changes in our society to reflect this assholishness "on the part of God", I seriously doubt any hypothetical God would reward us on the sole basis of personal merit. That means no trust fund babies, and reward according only to effort and sacrifice.

EDIT: Damn, I didn't want to make a political point there, but seriously, humans have yet to deserve anything from God.

godfather89
2008-03-21, 14:11
If "God" was all-forgiving and all-loving, why does Christianity have a hell?


That is the best point you could have made but look out the fundamentalist might try to throw you a curve ball saying *Such and Such thing as you may know* now can you catch it?

From the Gnostic perspective, hell is being reborn again into this prison like poverty called earthly existence, but even this system works against hell because, we learn as we go along, our spirit is one bit more closer to spiritual awakening... Again, for those who are spiritual this is the belief of a Gnostic.

Until we make some changes in our society to reflect this assholishness "on the part of God", I seriously doubt any hypothetical God would reward us on the sole basis of personal merit. That means no trust fund babies, and reward according only to effort and sacrifice.

EDIT: Damn, I didn't want to make a political point there, but seriously, humans have yet to deserve anything from God.

Unless, your those people in the Midwest where they have this self-proclaimed notion that if they say they faith in Christ than that alone constitutes there salvation, and yet are entitled to make banners and say "God Hates Fags" and "No SOUP For You" if you are poor and do not work. The real hardcore fundamentalist Christian.

IMHO (In My Humblest Opinion), I don't think Christ wanted hateful people to be the ones representing the Church of Christ

ArmsMerchant
2008-03-21, 18:47
Until we make some changes in our society to reflect this assholishness "on the part of God", I seriously doubt any hypothetical God would reward us on the sole basis of personal merit. That means no trust fund babies, and reward according only to effort and sacrifice.

EDIT: Damn, I didn't want to make a political point there, but seriously, humans have yet to deserve anything from God.

Forget about that priggish, micro-managing, jealous and petty deity portrayed in the Bible.

God--at least the one I know--does not judge, reward or punish, but is all about unconditional love.

We have trouble accepting this concept, having scant experience of it in our own lives.

Bukujutsu
2008-03-22, 05:06
Forget about that priggish, micro-managing, jealous and petty deity portrayed in the Bible.

God--at least the one I know--does not judge, reward or punish, but is all about unconditional love.

We have trouble accepting this concept, having scant experience of it in our own lives.

I don't know Arms, I've recently made even better progress( damn I hate using language, it's so limiting) in understanding what infinity truly is and how it applies to this, and it just seems that God, your definition of god, would simply be. It wouldn't be limited to love, it'd be above everything, it would be everything. You've written about how limited our perception is, but that's more major than I think you've realized. Our emotions are caused by our physical bodies. Could a germ feel love? As we've evolved more "emotions" have been created, but if we were to evolve even more it's definitely possible that we could experience new "emotions" and ideas that we currently aren't capable of experiencing. Of course, the limitations of the physical body can be transcended, but most people are nowhere near that level. I am aware of my extreme ignorance and the uncertainty of everything.

Everything simply is and is not.

Whore of God
2008-03-22, 06:54
^^^^This.

God is a dick b/c he punishes children for the inequities of the parent. So much for just, kind and fair.

Ezekiel 18.

http://http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel%2018&version=31

"Therefore, O house of Israel, I will judge you, each one according to his ways, declares the Sovereign LORD." - verse 30, though it's all relevant

Whore of God
2008-03-22, 07:16
I mean, the whole Christianity is based on the idea that humans are by default good, and that those who are bad to others just need to be loved.

The doctrine of Original Sin might suggest otherwise. Even babies are born sinners

Agent 008
2008-03-22, 13:15
The doctrine of Original Sin might suggest otherwise. Even babies are born sinners

Yes, well, as far as I know that's not exactly what Christ believed in.

Hell, I don't even believe that the apostles that were writing after him understood what he was saying and wrote it down correctly.

Read Bulgakov's "The Master and Margarita" - it's a good book in itself, and it has interesting thoughts about what could have actually happened there. Seriously, you'll love it, the book is great.

godfather89
2008-03-23, 17:00
You see we arrive to the problem:

Doctrine and Dogma V. Spirituality and Divine Experience

Many people I feel are rejecting Doctrine and Dogma but in the proccess seem to be out to reject the Spirituality and divine experience. The problem is how can you question something that goes beyond verbal expression? These experiences are meant for two type of people: Those who sought the experience and those who are interested in having the experience. These experiences have the power to change dogma and doctrine; dogma and doctrine does not have the power to ignore the experience.

HellzShellz
2008-03-23, 19:10
The doctrine of Original Sin might suggest otherwise. Even babies are born sinners

Actually, is Disagree with you and the person you quoted. In the Tanakh children had to reach a certain age before they had known sin. We've always called that the age of accountability. Granted, before then you might see your child practicing sin. Rebellion against parents, but until they KNOW that it's WRONG, and why, they aren't accountable for that. When they know, they're accountable. You must reach the age of accountability, and from the looks of things, that age keeps dropping more and more as time progresses. I read our local news, and an 8 year old tried to hang himself. AN EIGHT YEAR OLD!!!
Babies are born and do sin, but they aren't sinners until, I believe, they learn to obey and disobey. When children begin to make their own decisions, by either applying what they've learned, or rebelling against what they've come to know as right, they're THEN sinning.

Christianity does NOT default to people are GOOD. That's NOT TRUE, we KNOW that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and all that lies within us apart from Christ is filthy. We'renot GOOD, we devise evil.. GOD IS GOOD. The Messiah said to the rich young ruler, to see if He believed on Him, "Why do you call me GOOD, there is NONE GOOD BUT GOD!" You can't be GOOD ENOUGH TO EARN SALVATION, AND YOU CAN'T BE TOO BAD TO BE SAVED. It's YESHUA, AND THROUGH FAITH IN HIM ALONE THAT CAN SAVE AN INDIVIDUAL.

Agent 008
2008-03-23, 20:16
Actually, is Disagree with you and the person you quoted. In the Tanakh children had to reach a certain age before they had known sin. We've always called that the age of accountability. Granted, before then you might see your child practicing sin. Rebellion against parents, but until they KNOW that it's WRONG, and why, they aren't accountable for that. When they know, they're accountable. You must reach the age of accountability, and from the looks of things, that age keeps dropping more and more as time progresses. I read our local news, and an 8 year old tried to hang himself. AN EIGHT YEAR OLD!!!
Babies are born and do sin, but they aren't sinners until, I believe, they learn to obey and disobey. When children begin to make their own decisions, by either applying what they've learned, or rebelling against what they've come to know as right, they're THEN sinning.

Christianity does NOT default to people are GOOD. That's NOT TRUE, we KNOW that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and all that lies within us apart from Christ is filthy. We'renot GOOD, we devise evil.. GOD IS GOOD. The Messiah said to the rich young ruler, to see if He believed on Him, "Why do you call me GOOD, there is NONE GOOD BUT GOD!" You can't be GOOD ENOUGH TO EARN SALVATION, AND YOU CAN'T BE TOO BAD TO BE SAVED. It's YESHUA, AND THROUGH FAITH IN HIM ALONE THAT CAN SAVE AN INDIVIDUAL.

While I somewhat agree with your first paragraph, I'm afraid your second paragraph is just bullshit.

You're saying that a person can't be good to others without Jesus? Or that the reason Jesus essentially killed himself just so that people have faith in him? Do you see any logic in that?

The reason Jesus died was to show people the need to change. He couldn't care less whether you believe in him, or in a God, or whatever. As long as you're good to others and make this world a place worth living in.

There is no evidence for what I'm saying, but there's no evidence for what you're saying either - Jesus is dead.
But from what I read about him and his life, he wasn't dumb, and he had some sort of a plan. Going through what he went through just so that people "have faith in him" is retarded. And people don't need to be saved, they just need to have a mind of their own and not save Barabbas because they're told to, for the lulz. Quite the opposite of what the official religion is telling people.

It's all just speculation anyway, but I think my interpretation at least makes some sense.

Feds In Town
2008-03-23, 20:25
Forget about that priggish, micro-managing, jealous and petty deity portrayed in the Bible.

God--at least the one I know--does not judge, reward or punish, but is all about unconditional love.

We have trouble accepting this concept, having scant experience of it in our own lives.

Yes, Finally! how can people think that if God exists, he is an asshole? I'm agnostic mostly because I cannot accept the legalism of Christianity in relation to God.

I like the way you think, same with my old Theology teacher when I went to Catholic School in 9th grade.. she had the right idea about God..

It gives me hope

Prometheum
2008-03-24, 16:54
Forget about that priggish, micro-managing, jealous and petty deity portrayed in the Bible.

God--at least the one I know--does not judge, reward or punish, but is all about unconditional love.

We have trouble accepting this concept, having scant experience of it in our own lives.

So basically you have an imaginary friend that, no matter how bad you fuck up, will always ``be there''? How mature.