And everything that he claimed was true and he could offer you a blissful/perfect existence. And this was an unmistakable verifiable FACT (somehow..). would you accept the offer?

sure... why not.

I'm not completely sure what you mean by completely blissful/perfect existence. He never promised this, but I guess your thought experiment is adding this on. If this is like some sort of pleasure drug that I get the rest of my life, then I don't see why I'd reject it. However, if this means I have to spend ETERNITY in some afterlife, then no thank you. I find the idea of any sort of enteral life repulsive and unpleasant.

No, I'll go to hell thank you very much.

I'm not completely sure what you mean by completely blissful/perfect existence. He never promised this, but I guess your thought experiment is adding this on. If this is like some sort of pleasure drug that I get the rest of my life, then I don't see why I'd reject it. However, if this means I have to spend ETERNITY in some afterlife, then no thank you. I find the idea of any sort of enteral life repulsive and unpleasant.

I'm assuming heaven is perfect and the most favorable existence for humanity. And since heaven is perfect, even though it is for eternity you'd never get tired of it.

Don't limit your perception of heaven as just another existence of shallow pleasure. Heaven is supposed to be an existence where your soul is united with God, and this unity is a pleasure infinitely superior to whatever pleasures we're used to on earth.

I guess I would have to listen to him. Too bad magic and ghosts and zombies aren't real

I guess I would have to listen to him. Too bad magic and ghosts and zombies aren't real

well technically magic DOES exist. since it is, by definition, any force that is outside scientific understanding. But i guess, when we are able to scientifically understand a "magical" force, then it no longer fits the definition of magic. BUT then AGAIN, somewhere down the long lines of causation everything has to end somewhere, and at that point, nothing can be explained scientifically.

as for ghosts and zombies, you can't prove they don't exist. Not saying they do. but still, affirming that something absolutely doesn't exist without proof is the same thing as affirming something does exist.

[...]

as for ghosts and zombies, you can't prove they don't exist. Not saying they do. but still, affirming that something absolutely doesn't exist without proof is the same thing as affirming something does exist.

You see thats where religion gets all crazy.... if one accepts the existence of God one has to accept the possibility of many things. As a matter of fact anything outlandish at all.... say for instance pink elephants with bat wings who shit Klondike bars that if eaten give eternal life... :D

You see thats where religion gets all crazy.... if one accepts the existence of God one has to accept the possibility of many things. As a matter of fact anything outlandish at all.... say for instance pink elephants with bat wings who shit Klondike bars that if eaten give eternal life... :D

Is God really on the same outlandish level as a pink elephant with bat wings who shits klondike bars that if eaten give eternal life? Forget all the human constructed connotations that go along with God. Just the concept of a creator. Is it unreasonable to conjecture that a being made reality, just as a dildo-maker makes a dildo?

Is God really on the same outlandish level as a pink elephant with bat wings who shits klondike bars that if eaten give eternal life? Forget all the human constructed connotations that go along with God. Just the concept of a creator. Is it unreasonable to conjecture that a being made reality, just as a dildo-maker makes a dildo?

Being an Agnostic gives me some leeway on this matter... so I will have to say that such a "reality" depends on the observer. Of course since no one has seen God I will remain skeptical of the whole idea. That does not bar me from future belief... of course I will be dead then so I will not be able to give you a report. Since in order to see God one must be deceased. And that is the crux of the matter isn't it?

Faith is in short supply these days my friend...

"just as a dildo-maker makes a dildo" now that was funny...

Of course since no one has seen God I will remain skeptical of the whole idea.

There are many people who have felt God. Jesus too, apparently.

There are many people who have felt God. Jesus too, apparently.

A feeling is not tangible proof...

A feeling is not tangible proof...

But seeing God is?

But seeing God is?

yep... of course the experience would have to be reproducible in order to properly study it.

This thread is simply an experiment to gauge how reasonable totseans are to the hypothetical situation of a loving god.

if you want to argue the plausibility of such a scenario, go to every other thread on this forum.

This thread is simply an experiment to gauge how reasonable totseans are to the hypothetical situation of a loving god.

if you want to argue the plausibility of such a scenario, go to every other thread on this forum.

This is SPARTA!!!! erm totse... and I go where I please.:p

What If Jesus IS real

Then I'm gonna beat the shit out of him.

if he was real, well yea, who would not want bliss? but this is a pretty useless hypothetical situation. what if Nessie was real? what if people had 5 penises?

Then I'm gonna beat the shit out of him.

I am SO tempted to infract you for this. For the last time, if you have nothing positive or remotely on-topic or of interest to say, hold your peace--go quietly to your room and let the grown-ups talk.

Back to topic. First of all, there is little doubt among people with more than two brain cells to rub together that Jesus existed. There IS, however, a great deal of controversy about what he said and did. None of the four "official" gospels are in anything close to total agreement.

Recent Biblical scholarship strongly suggests that 1) the whole resurrection thing was a scam, and 2) the "cast the first stone" incident was fabricated.

...Back to topic. First of all, there is little doubt among people with more than two brain cells to rub together that Jesus existed. There IS, however, a great deal of controversy about what he said and did. None of the four "official" gospels are in anything close to total agreement...

That's not really a very accurate statement, Arms. In truth, there is very little evidence (other than the bible) of the existance of Jesus, and much of the evidence that does exist is questionable.

And everything that he claimed was true and he could offer you a blissful/perfect existence. And this was an unmistakable verifiable FACT (somehow..). would you accept the offer?

I'd have to read all the fine print first. My first question would be: If you have the power to *zap* blissful/perfect existence into place, why not just make this a given, all across the board?

Jesus WAS real. His coming into existence story I find to be bullshit. He couldn't do shit for you anyway. You need to speak to his "dad" to get what you want.

That being beside the point.... (your) GOD is fake

Zeus is the ruler of all!!!!!!! ALL BOW DOWN TO ZEUS! Oh yeah and bring all of your virgin daughters to me for um... Sacrifice, yeah, that's it....

Re: What If Jesus IS real

I'd think "Fuck!". I'd then mount my unicorn and ride towards the end of a rainbow to find my pot of gold.

First of all, there is little doubt among people with more than two brain cells to rub together that Jesus existed.

I'm glad you feel you can speak for people with more than two brain cells. Personally, I think you should be part of the group if you're going to speak for us.

http://www.ebonmusings.org/atheism/camel.html

Where's the real evidence for Jesus?

Oh yeah, that's right, it's in the same place I put all the evidence we have for Bigfoot, the Loch Ness monster and Dumbo the flying elephant.

E: I'm talking about the superhero Jesus. There probably was a regular guy called Jesus, but I don't think he actually did anything other than walk around with his guys teaching moral lessons. Also, I hate assertions like yours which condemn doubt.

A feeling is not tangible proof...

Actually, it is, by definition.

If you don't believe me, look up a definition for the word "tangible."

That's not really a very accurate statement, Arms. In truth, there is very little evidence (other than the bible) of the existance of Jesus, and much of the evidence that does exist is questionable.

I just googled "historical evidence of Jesus." Got over 2,000,000 results.

That's not enough for you?

I'd have to read all the fine print first. My first question would be: If you have the power to *zap* blissful/perfect existence into place, why not just make this a given, all across the board?

Free will, for one thing.

For another--in the words of Chopra, "if we were born enlightened, we would have nothing to do."

Over the years , I have experienced just about every sensory pleasure possible via money, travel, sex, drugs, weapons, violent crimes, artistic expression, and fast cars.

Nothing even comes close to the thrill of spiritual evolution.

I just googled "historical evidence of Jesus." Got over 2,000,000 results.

That's not enough for you?

What? Google results is a measure of validity in what way?

Well in that case,
http://googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=historical+evidence+of+jesus&word2=jesus+is+not+real

Free will, for one thing.

Not worth it. How could free will overcompensate for the lack of a perfect, blissful existence?

I just googled "historical evidence of Jesus." Got over 2,000,000 results.

That's not enough for you?

How many of them did you actually read?

I just Googled *Superman* and got 4,220,000 results. By your reasoning, there is more evidence for the existance of Superman than for Jesus.

OP, I think you mean, what if Jesus WAS real. Jesus is dead.

Back to topic. First of all, there is little doubt among people with more than two brain cells to rub together that Jesus existed. There IS, however, a great deal of controversy about what he said and did. None of the four "official" gospels are in anything close to total agreement.

Recent Biblical scholarship strongly suggests that 1) the whole resurrection thing was a scam, and 2) the "cast the first stone" incident was fabricated.

I don't remember there being terribly many first-hand, or even second-hand, historical sources commenting on his existence, the New Testament (which is probably like fourth-hand) aside. It's assumed that someone, probably with a name somewhat alike 'Joshua', if memory serves, might have been around, and might have created a popular movement later known as 'Christianity', but if the figure as we know him existed is assumed, not known. Hell, Josephus fought against the Romans in the Jewish War that destroyed the Temple a mere thirty (three?) years after Jesus 'died' and was 'resurrected', and he doesn't mention Jesus. Or at least, the original material by Josephus doesn't.

In a historical sense, is there evidence for Jesus' existence? I mean, one historian, one famous name, even an active writer in Jerusalem at the time, who without a doubt and without later alteration even mentions Jesus?

No.

He could be real though, but just as some influential guy who died a long time ago.

And everything that he claimed was true and he could offer you a blissful/perfect existence. And this was an unmistakable verifiable FACT (somehow..). would you accept the offer?

... why did you make this thread?

"live a good life, and you will live in enternal bliss. live a bad life, cause misery and suffering, and you will spend eternity in terrible torment."

"duhh, fuck you buddy, torment comes later, right?" *rapes and murders people*

for the record i believe jesus existed, but his messeges have been greatly.. distorted, and maybe even words were put in his mouth.

Whether or not jesus did or does exist is one thing, but even if he did truly exist that doesn't back up anything he may have said. Unless the fact that jesus is without a doubt a real person gives you more of a reason to believe in the bible.

On a side note though, I hardly think jesus would have said and believed most of the stuff that the bible says to be true. Remember, the bible was put together more than a lifetime after his supposed death, meaning if he truly was real there were few if any first hand accounts even at that time.

To the OP......

NO I would not accept Jesus and go to heaven even if I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt it was all true.....

Here is why, I do not want to be stuck for eternity with Pat Robertson, Pope Innocent, Dubya, Tammy Baker, Jimmy Swagert, Your average jesus freak or anyone else who cannot shut the fuck up about christ and stop talking with that fake smile and a gentle golf commentator's voice that vomits forth "praise god" after every successful sentence.

I cannot believe most of you would like to hear Pat Robertson drone on about his age defying pancakes for ETERNITY.

Is God really on the same outlandish level as a pink elephant with bat wings who shits klondike bars that if eaten give eternal life? Forget all the human constructed connotations that go along with God. Just the concept of a creator. Is it unreasonable to conjecture that a being made reality, just as a dildo-maker makes a dildo?

Yes, because that being would have to be more complex than reality and thus it's origin is only that much more mysterious. All you have done is create a bigger problem.

If I ever saw Jesus, I would hope I have a very lethal weapon nearby. One of my biggest regrets is that I wasn't able to personally witness the crucifixion.

I wonder if there was a moment of fear on his face when he realized that he wasn't going to "rise" again, that he wasn't the son of any deity, that he was a man, and he was dying.

Actually, it is, by definition.

If you don't believe me, look up a definition for the word "tangible."

You know what I mean... scientifically verifiable truth is different than just a feeling.

If I ever saw Jesus, I would hope I have a very lethal weapon nearby. One of my biggest regrets is that I wasn't able to personally witness the crucifixion.

I wonder if there was a moment of fear on his face when he realized that he wasn't going to "rise" again, that he wasn't the son of any deity, that he was a man, and he was dying.

I bet their was. I bet he shit his pants. I bet his followers saw their meal ticket (Most were jobless bums) die up their and decided to keep the lie going. Stole his body. Said he became a zombie for all of us. My biggest concern is people bought it. This is why I HIGHLY favor education and science.