Okay, so Potassium permanganate seems to come up in a number of recipes and it apparently gives off a purple flame i think. this would be very pretty to me and id like to use it sometime.

but where would i get it?

also, ive read that getting a glass bottle, and adding a few drops of gasoline cover the inside surface then adding Potassium permanaganate and sealing it, when the glass breaks it should explode. i can see this as a possible simply because the fumes of the gasoline could most definitely cause explosion, but im afraid idk what PP could possibly do, im guessing reacting with the gasoline and maybe when oxygen is introduced create a combusting reaction.

there was also something about wrapping a bottle of gasoline fumes(same as above) with paper towels soaked in something and it seemed pretty practical.

anyway

what could i use to add color to flames/smoke? and what would i have to do to it to add it to a smoke mix or rocket mix?

Excited K+ cations give flames a light purple color. As for the other shit, don't read the text files.

Man, i can't even tell if this is for lolz or not.

"Don't read the text files."
-The regulars of Totse: Backyard Ballistics

Boy does this sound familiar.

Don't read the Anarchists Cookbook. It is all made up, and it is all ridiculous.

Boy does this sound familiar.

Don't read the Anarchists Cookbook. It is all made up, and it is all ridiculous.


well i know that much, but it does actually seem possible, i looked up the chemical, and it DOES react with glycerol but im guessing if you put the two in a bottle and close it it would probably explode immediately.... which is why i think the wrapped in paper towels would actually work!

but anyway thats not what im really interested in, thats just a thing that was bugging me

where would i get ahold of this? a hardware store? a plumbing store? what is its MAIN use without someone thinking im going to start a fire or something.

and what other colorants could i find around the hardware store? i'd have no problem grinding at a pipe with a file :)

or do you think i should just go to the hardware/plumbing store and just look for chemicals that sound fun to put in a rocket mix? <joke for those of you who cant see that>i'd atleast find a few chemicals that provide some use and find them in something!

Hypergolic ignition is a fun reaction to do in a lab, but you can't build anything from them.

If you wan't something to go boom when broken, you'll need to convice us you're not doing this with bad intetions.

Failing that, what's wrong with electrical igniters?

You seem to have decent intentions, but whether or not you have harmless intent, the best way to start is by forgetting everything that you read about in the ACB, then going over the informational links thread, and reading all that you can about different LE compositions.

It doesn't take long until you can figure out for yourself what will and will not work, but it's best if you start off with the basics like everyone else does.

Forget about the KMnO4 and read about black powder, and other simple LE compositions. By the time you can successfully make your own BP, you will be ready to choose for yourself what you want to do with pyrotechnics.

Hypergolic ignition is a fun reaction to do in a lab, but you can't build anything from them.

If you wan't something to go boom when broken, you'll need to convice us you're not doing this with bad intetions.

Failing that, what's wrong with electrical igniters?

no, myself hate the construction of bombs other such devices, they are dangerous tools of destruction and if i wanted to make one i would, without any knowledge to others as to how. it would be fairly simple.

i just read these articles and wanted to know exactly why someone thought this up and if it were really possible to do, but i had no idea about what the chemicals actually do, and now that im learning them it seems pretty functional. well of course not much past a bomb but to me if you were to actually add it to a bottle filled with fumes it would just explode in your hands after seeing what it does, but im guessing it only does this in the presence of oxygen so if you COULD evacuate all oxygen and then add it it probably wouldnt explode until broken. thats all my interest goes and i wouldnt risk making such a thing.

now adding this to a mixture for a firework that would be something id have no problem with. im thinking actually if you were to have a package of gasoline(or glycerol) in a shell, in a bag maybe, then a layer of PP then a small projectile(like a pebble to pop the bag), and a small charge behind it to pop the bag and send the PP through the glycerol and ignite it, it may look wondrous!

short-shoot a pebble through some P-P through some gasoline, it sprays out and they react together in the air. the shell is launched by a small lift charge and then a delay mix, then a small directed charge(maybe a tube) of bp with a pebble in front of it pointing up towards the targets. hell actually a star seems like a better idea if it wasnt for the fact it would ignite everything! that would be the main problem


either way it seems like a fun additive

Typing a bit better and learning the chemistry behind things instead of using "recipes" and the like would greatly increase your knowledge of pyrotechnics and learning in general, and I am not kidding or insulting you by saying this.

Typing a bit better and learning the chemistry behind things instead of using "recipes" and the like would greatly increase your knowledge of pyrotechnics and learning in general, and I am not kidding or insulting you by saying this.

yea ive been actually learning alot about the chemistry behind all of this recently. its very interesting and im learning alot more than just "recipes" but actual "why this works and what it does" so i understand HOW and WHY it does this so i know what NOT to do and what wont work/happen

Permanganates have no part in real pyrotechnics, trying to incorporate them into a firework is just retarded.

If you want to learn a shit load about fireworks:
http://www.xsorbit2.com/users/apcforum/index.cgi?board=newbie&action=display&num=1118087128
(Don't post there, the forum is dead, just there as a readable archive, so read read read, then read more. Even if it seems to have nothing to do with what your interested in. At least this way when you post somewhere it wont be such a common question.)

Leave permanganates to the experienced chemist.

Pot. perm. is sold in plastic jugs in hardware stores for use in renewing iron filters.

Indeed, you can buy it in bags and tins from hardware stores. As was already said about them having no real place in fireworks, it kind of does work. Kind of. Back in the clueless and confused Anachist Cookbook reading days, I think I tried using the same thing to make purple/blue flames, but it's more of a blue/green than anything else, and is has to be damn hot to achieve anything.

Most of the time you can't just mix up permanganates with something that burns and expect it to look pretty. It really, really has to burn quite hot to achieve anything.

But s00riously, if you're just after pretty purple flames for crudely built burney-things, get yourself a bag of powdered sulphur from the hardware store. Burns a lot easier, and it's probably more the kind of purple you're after.

But s00riously, if you're just after pretty purple flames for crudely built burney-things, get yourself a bag of powdered sulphur from the hardware store. Burns a lot easier, and it's probably more the kind of purple you're after.
Just don't breathe in the resultant gas :)

If you really are interested in learning why things work...learn some organic chemistry.

I don't know very much but from what I do I would predict that KMnO4, a powerful oxidizer, would react very differently with gasoline (a mixture of saturated hydrocarbons and now some ethanol) and glycerol (a tri-ol). The main difference being the alcohol functional groups--the only thing that might tie it together would be the ethanol added into the gasoline.

In terms of practical use, we tend to discourage that sort of discussion whereas say RS promotes it. I will say that that second idea with the "something wrapped around the bottle" would probably "work" and it is one of the few ideas in the ACB that actually has scientific grounds...but I cannot envision any use for it (except as a weapon) that could not be done in a much safer manner.

I won't comment on what you're trying to fabricate, or why. I will second the comment that KMnO4 is a powerful oxidizer. You may mix up something that will give you the surprise of your young life. It can be both friction and impact sensitive, and has also been known to det. spontaneously, depending what it's mixed with. If you're unfamiliar with it, and don't even know where to get it, I'd give it a pass.

alrighty well lets move onto other colors shall we?

so ive looked up a bit into coloring flames and ive found that

Epsom salt gives a white flame
Table salt gives a yellow flame
Borax gives a yellow-green flame
Boric acid gives a green flame
and bleaching powder makes an orange flame.

now, i have Epsom salt and obviously table salt and POSSIBLY borax. i also happen to have a zippo that i dont care too much about(case needs new hinge inside just needs to be new).

so im guessing if i were to dissolve one of these chemicals into some of the lighter fluid, then add it to my lighter, it would of course produce that color? well ive made a thread about things to put in zippos other than naptha and the replies pretty much said anything else would be corrosive, but im wondering, would burning salt/naptha fluid be corrosive? really i want a white flame so would that make any type of corrosion? really i dont care TOO much as im going to replace the lighter itself(not-case) soon as its burned somehow and is showing extreme wear(previous owner musta smoked crack or something with it)

so im guessing if i were to dissolve one of these chemicals into some of the lighter fluid, then add it to my lighter, it would of course produce that color? well ive made a thread about things to put in zippos other than naptha and the replies pretty much said anything else would be corrosive, but im wondering, would burning salt/naptha fluid be corrosive? really i want a white flame so would that make any type of corrosion? really i dont care TOO much as im going to replace the lighter itself(not-case) soon as its burned somehow and is showing extreme wear(previous owner musta smoked crack or something with it)

You can get Borax? That stuff is sodium borate, dissolve some Borax in hydrochloric acid or dilute sulfuric acid (from a car battery), then boil/evaporate the water away. Add a quantity of the formed white crystals to methylated spirits (which is 95% ethanol. If you can get methanol use that instead) which will yield some ethyl borate or methyl borate respectively. Methyl borate is a lot more vibrant than ethyl borate, so use methanol if you can find it.

Some ethyl borate I made one day while bored using this method: http://i2.tinypic.com/6luu42f.jpg

Especially with left over acidity in it it'll probably corrode steel quick enough, and wreck your lighter possibly leaking burning fluid everywhere after a while, but since you're going to throw it away soon...

I remember someone putting B(OCH3)3 in a Zippo, coulda been FMJ, said it didn't quite work. From what I've done with it there's always boric acid or some shit that makes a white crust on whatever it touches.

Beware sodium impurities. Making boric acid/borates from borax, a sodium salt is a recipe for disaster. The only way to really get rid of the sodium impurity would be to distill the borate compound off... Thats just a big hassle when pure boric acid is dirt cheap and methanol or methanol denatured ethanol is so readily available. You don't want to carry that sodium impurity over into any stars.

I have tried denatured alcohol, acetone, and MEK, they suck. Aside from being easily extinguished by the wind, they are gone very quickly. The zippo lighter fuel is recommended for 2 reasons:
1. They want more money.
2. It is blended and made especially for the lighters to be the perfect fuel.

Chances are that putting most any salt in your lighter will foul it up and you will probably still get a sodium yellow from somewhere. Borates will also probably suck in it. Too volatile just like the alcohols they were made from.


Why don't you actually research WHY those compounds color flames the way they do?

Beware sodium impurities. Making boric acid/borates from borax, a sodium salt is a recipe for disaster. The only way to really get rid of the sodium impurity would be to distill the borate compound off... Thats just a big hassle when pure boric acid is dirt cheap and methanol or methanol denatured ethanol is so readily available. You don't want to carry that sodium impurity over into any stars.

I have tried denatured alcohol, acetone, and MEK, they suck. Aside from being easily extinguished by the wind, they are gone very quickly. The zippo lighter fuel is recommended for 2 reasons:
1. They want more money.
2. It is blended and made especially for the lighters to be the perfect fuel.

Chances are that putting most any salt in your lighter will foul it up and you will probably still get a sodium yellow from somewhere. Borates will also probably suck in it. Too volatile just like the alcohols they were made from.


Why don't you actually research WHY those compounds color flames the way they do?

because hardly a thing comes up for me when i search "why do chemicals color flames"

that is with my current connection as well


edit: also, okay, since sodiums and borates just corrode the shit out of everything, how bout i just steal what i believe to be copper chloride from a electric butane lighter and place that ontop of the zippos chimney? or will it just not burn hot enough to produce the green?

Oh and i dissolved a lil bit of epsom salt in some lighter fluid, not very well mind you, but i added it to the zippo, lit surprisingly better than before(it just has problems lighting, probably from just usual overuse corrision) and with a brighter, somewhat lighter and larger flame. but ive also overfilled the damn thing so yea, keeping that in my pocket is a no no.

then with the residual espom salt/lighter fuel slush, tossed it in a candle, lit it, was pretty cool, left the salt but it did burn, you could hear it fizzing, very interesting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i8MtNP_JXY
The color (Edit: should probably make that 'wavelength') of the photon emitted when an electron drops back down to its base state is determined by the distance the electron drops, if I'm remembering some shit I read in 9th grade earth science correctly.
But then wouldn't Ca and K have the same color... Whatever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7i8MtNP_JXY
The color (Edit: should probably make that 'wavelength') of the photon emitted when an electron drops back down to its base state is determined by the distance the electron drops, if I'm remembering some shit I read in 9th grade earth science correctly.
But then wouldn't Ca and K have the same color... Whatever.

oh okay now im starting to understand. so basically, when reacting, and the whole bonding/reaction process is a-goin', and the photons shoot off, how it shoots off(and thus its wavelength) is based off of how many layers of electrons fall into array(to form a stable atom?) or just how far the electron moves out of place and then back to its original place like a ball being knocked off a bigger ball and then being pulled back like magnets? and then when its pulled back it knocks a smaller ball out that determines the color

There is another fellow who insists on asking all his questions here and that he can't find shit with google... Where as some how i can misticly find exactly what he was looking for with the most mundane terms... Generally the answer resides in one of the top 2 pages too... I'll demonstrate...

Google: "flame colors"
Results:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/chemical/flame.html
http://jchemed.chem.wisc.edu/jcesoft/cca/cca2/MAIN/FLAME/CD2R1.HTM
http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/demos/main_pages/6.2.html
http://webmineral.com/help/FlameTest.shtml

The wiki link with reading and branched out reading from some of the linked to pages would have lead you to:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emission_spectrum

The "webmineral.com" link is also nice... its the first time i have come accross that particular page... bookmarked.

You can search for this on a school computer... science is not taboo. Bombs and explosives probably are.

Gotta be very careful with KMnO4 and organic fuels/compounds. Gasoline especially, with all of those single bonded Carbons. When KMnO4 gets ahold of those C-bonds, your going to get a lot of R-OH and a shit load of heat.

I remember someone putting B(OCH3)3 in a Zippo, coulda been FMJ, said it didn't quite work. From what I've done with it there's always boric acid or some shit that makes a white crust on whatever it touches.

That would be me. It's far too volatile and easily hydrolyzed into methanol and boric acid again...especially at the tip of the wick, where the methanol burns off and the boric acid crystallizes all over the outside and inside of the wick. Then it won't be able to sustain a flame.

Then you'll have this white crusty shit all over your zippo.

Yeah. Had to remove all the packing and the wick and soak all the parts in methanol a couple times after that one.

HEY!!!!!

WHAT IF i took the element from those blow torch lighters that turn them green, and then solder it to the chimney of my zippo? would it burn hot enough to react?

HEY!!!!!

WHAT IF i took the element from those blow torch lighters that turn them green, and then solder it to the chimney of my zippo? would it burn hot enough to react?

Probably not.

Zippo doesn't burn propane, and it burns at a lower temp. Maybe hot enough to weaken the solder and have it fall off, I thin that'd be about it.

They generally burn butane and alot cleaner than zippos. Keep that in mind.

Eh... i recall zippos taking their own rather smelly fuel, at least some of them, wasn't butane, and got poured into it, not under pressure. Too lazy/busy too look it up now.

Zippos (the traditional type) burn naptha, or more recently isoparaffin

Zippos (the traditional type) burn naptha, or more recently isoparaffin

Yeah, they're basically just pocket candles(wick). But they don't only burn naptha, I've used random fuels when I've run out of VM+N, like isoPOH and Denat. EtOH.

lol anarchist cookbook is the best.......if your a 7 year old. Just find someone who know's pyro in your area(like fireworks, etc) and ask them a few questions. Say it's for a research assignment for a science project and they'll probably tell you.

wow, I'm not sure what to say to that ...

The AB sucks and is dangerous, and 7 year olds shouldn't be playing with fire.

i didnt mean it like that....

Yeah, they're basically just pocket candles(wick). But they don't only burn naptha, I've used random fuels when I've run out of VM+N, like isoPOH and Denat. EtOH.

Right, but they burn best with low volatility fuels. Using alcohols and such is probably OK in a pinch but it's just asking for trouble--you end up with a mini vapour cloud inside the casing which will most likely fireball when you light it.

Right, but they burn best with low volatility fuels. Using alcohols and such is probably OK in a pinch but it's just asking for trouble--you end up with a mini vapour cloud inside the casing which will most likely fireball when you light it.

teehee fireballs are funny ^^

(this after experiencing many) it doesnt make a HUGE plume of flames, just a quick lil poof....thats it, not that impressive, doesnt necessarily "burn" me either.

anyway, its butane torch lighters use, and idk, if i could get the element high enough into the flame it could work maybe...

I remember doing this thing in a science lesson back in school where you throw a little piece of metal into some liquid. It fizzles and sort've explodes. Heh.

Sodium and water?

I still intend to one day trow a bit of metallic calcium into a puddle of molten potassium chlorate ... probably with some remote controlled contraption and from behind a blast shield, but stil!

Okay, so Potassium permanganate seems to come up in a number of recipes and it apparently gives off a purple flame i think. this would be very pretty to me and id like to use it sometime.

but where would i get it?

also, ive read that getting a glass bottle, and adding a few drops of gasoline cover the inside surface then adding Potassium permanaganate and sealing it, when the glass breaks it should explode. i can see this as a possible simply because the fumes of the gasoline could most definitely cause explosion, but im afraid idk what PP could possibly do, im guessing reacting with the gasoline and maybe when oxygen is introduced create a combusting reaction.

there was also something about wrapping a bottle of gasoline fumes(same as above) with paper towels soaked in something and it seemed pretty practical.

anyway

what could i use to add color to flames/smoke? and what would i have to do to it to add it to a smoke mix or rocket mix?

Jesus H Tapdancing Christ....
Regardless of intent. It is good for lolz. Hehe.

To Poster:
KMnO4 is an oxidizer.
Use Google.

/AV/

Jesus H Tapdancing Christ....
Regardless of intent. It is good for lolz. Hehe.

To Poster:
KMnO4 is an oxidizer.
Use Google.

/AV/

wait....so i could replace KNO3 with KMnO4? or am i confusing potassium nitrate as the oxidizer? no....it is because it has oxygen of course... amirite? im sorry if my chemistry is shitty, just getting into it, and ive missed ALOT of school(about 4 days a week for two weeks) and ive managed to keep up with everyone else so stop me when i get confused.

but you can have two oxidizers right? you dont need them of course but perhaps the usage of another compound in the mix would yield with another chemical that could benefit the composition. right? but it wouldnt make any sense to do that unless your TRYING to make some completely different product, so you'd be better off just replacing.

One of the easiest ways to lose eyes/fingers is by replacing something with something else. KMnO4 BP is a disaster waiting to happen.

One of the easiest ways to lose eyes/fingers is by replacing something with something else. KMnO4 BP is a disaster waiting to happen.

dammit for a second there i thought i had it figured out!

well im learning and i guess its better i learn here than out on the field....

so replacing is bad because? would it just be simply because the composition is just unstable and sensitive that its just too dangerous and better to stick with the more stable KN03 BP and then ADD the KMn04 as a completely separate object, or as a core or just mixed in?

You know... before you start proposing random things... it would be best if you actually took some time to think about what you are thinking of proposing and why it would or would not work... then when you are almost certain that it could work go right ahead and propose it. When you question one of your ideas, then scour google for why it would or would not work you learn more.

I highly suggest you get Introductory Practical Pyrotechnics (IPP) by Tom Perigrin and read it cover to cover. Learning some actual chemistry would help too. Or you can search APC and other forums and slowly learn. Or both...

... but otherwise you will not get far in this hobby. You just can't seem to wrap your mind around how chemicals react and why.

I highly suggest you get Introductory Practical Pyrotechnics (IPP) by Tom Perigrin and read it cover to cover.

Concur. I just bought this and it has given me a pretty decent grounding in the chemistry of pyro.