I've noticed something about the many religious people i've met in the last year or so and that is that their belief in God comes first and their analysis of its logic is secondary. Religious people don't 'arrive at the conclusion that god must exist' but rather 'believe that God exists' and try to match up the facts to support this. I know this is completely contrary to the scientific method but it seems to work for some very intelligent (yet equally religious) people.

In most cases belief is inspired by some sort of life changing (and usually depressing) experience which allowed these people to "feel" the presence of God. That's unfair! Assuming god really does exist, the people that go through some dramatic experience have an edge when it comes to faith.!

I'm an agnostic, sitting on the fence. Although i do find the existance of an omnipotent yet benevolent god highly illogical and unlikely, i don't find it impossible. I've had glimpses and 'feelings' of presences in my life that i can't quite explain at times when things were looking down... but now that my life's generally on track i haven't had these for some years, leading me to believe that the 'feelings' are most likely to be some hormonal artefact.

Believers! What do you make of this? What do you feel that lets you 'know' god's listening... to have such complete faith? I feel as if i was teetering on the edge of something big and lost it. I really want to make sense of what i went through, but at the same time so many things don't make sense... why is there a hell? Why can't god create a perfect world? Can god build a house he can't break.?? My head hurts... help????

I've noticed something about the many religious people i've met in the last year or so and that is that their belief in God comes first and their analysis of its logic is secondary. Religious people don't 'arrive at the conclusion that god must exist' but rather 'believe that God exists' and try to match up the facts to support this. I know this is completely contrary to the scientific method but it seems to work for some very intelligent (yet equally religious) people.

In most cases belief is inspired by some sort of life changing (and usually depressing) experience which allowed these people to "feel" the presence of God. That's unfair! Assuming god really does exist, the people that go through some dramatic experience have an edge when it comes to faith.!

I'm an agnostic, sitting on the fence. Although i do find the existance of an omnipotent yet benevolent god highly illogical and unlikely, i don't find it impossible. I've had glimpses and 'feelings' of presences in my life that i can't quite explain at times when things were looking down... but now that my life's generally on track i haven't had these for some years, leading me to believe that the 'feelings' are most likely to be some hormonal artefact.

Believers! What do you make of this? What do you feel that lets you 'know' god's listening... to have such complete faith? I feel as if i was teetering on the edge of something big and lost it. I really want to make sense of what i went through, but at the same time so many things don't make sense... why is there a hell? Why can't god create a perfect world? Can god build a house he can't break.?? My head hurts... help????

Fuck you and your faggot ass god...

Faggot.....

In most cases belief is due to people people being raised in religious environments.

About 20 years ago I awoke in a police cell with the world's Worst.Hangover.EVER and facing two counts of murder and one of armed robbery.

My son was not a year old and my wife was in hospital about to give birth to our second child (premature by 2 months).

Suddenly I came to the conclusion that I had fucked up my life and my family's big time and maybe the God of my childhood might be able to help.

I wasn't and still ain't big on prayer and so I simply offered God a deal..."You sort this out for me and I'll go your way" kinda thing.

Against all the odds I was granted bail..something that NEVER happens and with no bail sum, just on my word of good behaviour.

God's divine spirit or was the judge on drugs....

A year later I faced trial on two accounts of attempted murder (both had lived..sorta), armed robbery and a handfull of other stuff.

I went in and pleaded guilty to the lot.

Thats right, I pleaded guilty to two counts of a capital crime.

I walked out with 2 years on probation.

So yeah I believe in God, not sure most days if he still believes in me ,mind.

About 20 years ago I awoke in a police cell with the world's Worst.Hangover.EVER and facing two counts of murder and one of armed robbery.

My son was not a year old and my wife was in hospital about to give birth to our second child (premature by 2 months).

Suddenly I came to the conclusion that I had fucked up my life and my family's big time and maybe the God of my childhood might be able to help.

I wasn't and still ain't big on prayer and so I simply offered God a deal..."You sort this out for me and I'll go your way" kinda thing.

Against all the odds I was granted bail..something that NEVER happens and with no bail sum, just on my word of good behaviour.

God's divine spirit or was the judge on drugs....

A year later I faced trial on two accounts of attempted murder (both had lived..sorta), armed robbery and a handfull of other stuff.

I went in and pleaded guilty to the lot.

Thats right, I pleaded guilty to two counts of a capital crime.

I walked out with 2 years on probation.

So yeah I believe in God, not sure most days if he still believes in me ,mind.

Damn... That's what you call one hell of a sticky situation...

I know this is completely contrary to the scientific method.

You'd be surprised how often this is not the case.

why is there a hell? Why can't god create a perfect world?


Man's sin.

Can god build a house he can't break.??

Depends who you ask. :p

http://www.existence-of-god.com/paradox-of-the-stone.html

I've noticed something about the many religious people i've met in the last year or so and that is that their belief in God comes first and their analysis of its logic is secondary. Religious people don't 'arrive at the conclusion that god must exist' but rather 'believe that God exists' and try to match up the facts to support this. I know this is completely contrary to the scientific method but it seems to work for some very intelligent (yet equally religious) people.

In most cases belief is inspired by some sort of life changing (and usually depressing) experience which allowed these people to "feel" the presence of God. That's unfair! Assuming god really does exist, the people that go through some dramatic experience have an edge when it comes to faith.!

I'm an agnostic, sitting on the fence. Although i do find the existance of an omnipotent yet benevolent god highly illogical and unlikely, i don't find it impossible. I've had glimpses and 'feelings' of presences in my life that i can't quite explain at times when things were looking down... but now that my life's generally on track i haven't had these for some years, leading me to believe that the 'feelings' are most likely to be some hormonal artefact.

Believers! What do you make of this? What do you feel that lets you 'know' god's listening... to have such complete faith? I feel as if i was teetering on the edge of something big and lost it. I really want to make sense of what i went through, but at the same time so many things don't make sense... why is there a hell? Why can't god create a perfect world? Can god build a house he can't break.?? My head hurts... help????

Your a generalizing cunt. I believe in God based off of basic logic, faith is second.

Haven't you heard of the possibility of everything aligning so perfectly to create a liveable enviornment and life is so tiny and minute, but somehow it works? If you read up on that you will realize its legit.

Although I'm not Christian (I'm Asatruar/Odinist) I can feel that the spirit of Gods are there guiding me.

It's more of a spiritual nature sense than a literal Christian sense. Actual drawings etc of gods in Viking helmets etc are just personifications of spirits that make things a bit easier to understand.

. Religious people don't 'arrive at the conclusion that god must exist' but rather 'believe that God exists' and try to match up the facts to support this. I know this is completely contrary to the scientific method but it seems to work for some very intelligent (yet equally religious) people.

Actually this IS the scientific method. Basically you figure out what you want to prove, your hypothesis (there is a God), then you perform various experiments in order to form a conclusion by matching up the facts to support your hypothesis.

However

The problem with Christian Science (besides the latter part of their name) is that it forms a hypothesis....lacks real scientific evidence for an experiment....skips it and goes straight to the conclusion ignoring any conflicting evidence.

Real science cannot do this and be taken seriously in the scientific community. In science until your experiments can be repeated by the community with the same results, you have got nothing.

I've noticed something about the many religious people i've met in the last year or so and that is that their belief in God comes first and their analysis of its logic is secondary. Religious people don't 'arrive at the conclusion that god must exist' but rather 'believe that God exists' and try to match up the facts to support this. I know this is completely contrary to the scientific method but it seems to work for some very intelligent (yet equally religious) people.

In most cases belief is inspired by some sort of life changing (and usually depressing) experience which allowed these people to "feel" the presence of God. That's unfair! Assuming god really does exist, the people that go through some dramatic experience have an edge when it comes to faith.!

I'm an agnostic, sitting on the fence. Although i do find the existance of an omnipotent yet benevolent god highly illogical and unlikely, i don't find it impossible. I've had glimpses and 'feelings' of presences in my life that i can't quite explain at times when things were looking down... but now that my life's generally on track i haven't had these for some years, leading me to believe that the 'feelings' are most likely to be some hormonal artefact.

Believers! What do you make of this? What do you feel that lets you 'know' god's listening... to have such complete faith? I feel as if i was teetering on the edge of something big and lost it. I really want to make sense of what i went through, but at the same time so many things don't make sense... why is there a hell? Why can't god create a perfect world? Can god build a house he can't break.?? My head hurts... help????


You said the life changing experience was 'unfair'. Im going to be honest at that point I stopped reading your article because I seen where it was going. What happens is this..

Satan's got you in his control as long as you don't believe. He uses, again, the things of this world. What is a 'thing'. That's a noun, right? Nouns.. persons, places, things.. he uses those. He'll use people as much as they yeild to him. All he has to do it plant a thought, whisper a lie, and get them to act on what he said. So.. satan sees the potential of humanity if they ever discover the Truth of Christ. What does he do? He does ALL HE CAN to try to KEEP YOU from discovering the truth. How? By using his resources. Why? Because if he can keep you from seeing the truth, he can keep you from doing damage to his kingdom? What does he do that keeps me from discovering the truth? Pushes you, sets up events in your life to be 'land marks' to REMIND you of your personal experiences, and tells you your experiences he caused are facts. Why doesn't God keep that from happening? He can't. If you make allowance for it in your life, he has to allow you to. What he can do is give you the TOOLS to keep you from having to fall captive to satan. How do I get the tools? By believeing on the Name of Jesus Christ, and submitting your life under His Lordship.

Satan pushes us so far and hard, while God has a better plan in mind. He turns messes into messages, and uses HIS people, who submit to Him, to reach out to you. *Note: It is possible for someone to be a 'christian' and still submit to the wrong authority simply because they don't KNOW what the will of God is. God said, "MY PEOPLE perish for a lack of knowledge" In turn, Satan can use HIS servants to APPEAR good and really not be that way.

Satan pushes us when he thinks he's pushing us away from God, and ends up pushing us right into God.. now rather or not you turn to Him and surrender to His love for you, is your choice.

There is a war raging. You can fight, or not fight. Either way, you're in this war rather you like it or not. This war is in your mind. When it comes to bigger things, after you've been born again, all you have to do is stand in CHRIST and accept the victory he provided and BELIEVE ON HIM no MATTER WHAT!! Remember, after you believe, Satan comes, still with the things of this world.. using circumstance to keep you from believeing. Having done all to stand, just STAND firmly!

This generation has become so comfortable and unproductive. So reactive that they don't know how to be proactive. They don't know how to fight, and stand firm. They simply go with the flow of the current, and never even attempt to swim against it.
It's how they've been TAUGHT through circumstances and personal situations.
You have to gain control of your own mind and the only way to do that is through TRUTH, and that's God's word and then you have to FIGHT to believe, and BELIEVE and fight.

Don't try to go beat up people, because they don't know either. I have to make that clear, because some people will take that and start beating anyone up who doesn't see what they do. That IS NOT the way to express Christ, in fact if you get those thoughts, EVER, you need to continue seeking God's Word because I promise you those are NOT God-inspired thoughts. Satan loves to make Christians look foolish, because it ruins their testimony of Christ.

This generation has become so comfortable and unproductive. So reactive that they don't know how to be proactive. They don't know how to fight, and stand firm. They simply go with the flow of the current, and never even attempt to swim against it.

FACT ALERT: The current you speak of has been flowing in the direction of the church FOR A LONG TIME. Swimming against it would be telling Jesus to go fuck himself. Atheism is on the rise in America. Secular society in America is being VERY proactive in telling the long standing Christian status quo to fuck itself.

It's how they've been TAUGHT through circumstances and personal situations. You have to gain control of your own mind and the only way to do that is through TRUTH, and that's God's word and then you have to FIGHT to believe, and BELIEVE and fight.

The only way to gain control of your own mind is to indoctrinate yourself in God's word; A strict guideline on exactly how to live your life? This is gaining control of your own mind?

Satan loves to make Christians look foolish, because it ruins their testimony of Christ.

Christians make christians look foolish.

Give it a rest with the devil makes you do it bullshit. Blame MUST be placed where the blame is do.

This mentality is the SAME fucktard mentality the Catholic Church had when they MOVED child fuckers to another church without telling anyone. Wasn't the priest's fault. Devil made him do it.

Don't even try twisting my words. Satan only has as much authority as humanity allows. I never said he MAKES people do anything, in fact WE CHOOSE to do what we do. PRE-MEDITATED and in DETAIL. Hey we even try to think of HOW we can do things without people finding out and how to get ourselves in the situations to do what we WILL to do. Don't get the devil and the fleshed mixed up. Carnal mind and Satan. Satan does work through a carnal mind and people controlled by the flesh, but don't get them mixed up. You're coming at me like you know what I'm talking about. (That's funny to me.)

You're coming at me like you know what I'm talking about. (That's funny to me.)

He certainly has a better grip of the fundamentals of biblical studies than you.

All we get from you is the recurring mouthings of 'Pastor' John-Jo-Billy-Bob of the "Jesus Is T3H AWESOME TV Church".

Your a generalizing cunt. I believe in God based off of basic logic, faith is second.

Haven't you heard of the possibility of everything aligning so perfectly to create a liveable enviornment and life is so tiny and minute, but somehow it works? If you read up on that you will realize its legit.

You speak of life as if it was the product of hindsight when it isn't at all. Is life so improbable that out of the trillions of planets, given about 13 billion years, life would not have occurred? In fact, the probability of life not occurring on any of the trillions of planets is probably greater than the existence of a sentient being who created everything.

All we get from you is the recurring mouthings of 'Pastor' John-Jo-Billy-Bob of the "Jesus Is T3H AWESOME TV Church".

I'm pretty certain it's the Creflo Dollar ministries our girl Shellz gets her multi-CAP you're-gonna-burn-you-sinner pulpit thumping antics from.

I'm pretty certain it's the Creflo Dollar ministries our girl Shellz gets her multi-CAP you're-gonna-burn-you-sinner pulpit thumping antics from.

I'm pretty sure, I just study my bible. Between the KJV/Amplified and the Tanakh.
I don't even watch Creflo Dollar. But this brings about a good point.. when you're looking at half of a picture and you don't know the Truth as a whole.. you're decieved. Simple.

I also go to Church every Sunday and Wednesday, because God's put me under my Pastor to grow, and learn. (Which is located in Murfreesboro, Tennessee) So Creflo Dollar isn't my pastor either. HOWEVER, I am Word of Faith, LIKE Creflo Dollar. I'm sure you don't know what Word of Faith is, unless you use google and get a MESSED UP opinion of it.. I'll use better words. Charismatic, Bapticostal, Spirit-filled, Full-Gospel. The "Thumping antics" were deeply rooted into me. It's LOVE that compels me to speak when I do. I'm very passionate about people. In fact, Angry, I love you! There's alot of potential in you.

Lighten up the situation. My Uncle and Mother, were SOUTHERN BAPTIST. Bless God. DEVOUT, only read the KJ bible.. type of people.. You know what I'm talking about? When I was a child, they told me Jesus was coming back at ANY MOMENT and it might be tonight! SCARED ME MAN. You can't lead someone to Christ by scaring them, because the fear will go away. My Goodness half of those that say they believe in God don't even fear His judgements. I'm not going there.. I remember, being scared, and waiting for Jesus to come back. I remember thinking Jesus had come back and forgot about me. I cried so hard, and then I called my uncle and thought, if He's still here then Jesus hasn't come back yet. However, Truth when spoken to a believer, can scare a person if they're in sin.

They were the type that will tell you they love you and then beat you up in the parking lot if you disagreed with them. Point is, they were both speakers that spoke with a deep conviction and strong passion. They're evangelist. They did step out and operate in that for awhile, and then they compromised. I don't want to compromise like they did. I want to do what God wants me to do and not mess it up. I'm rest assured in knowing that if I press into Him, I'll not mess up. If I obey Him I'll not mess. I'll make mistakes, but I won't mess up my witness to others.

I have no doubt in my mind if my mom and uncle would go back to where they began to stray away, and fix that, God in His mercy would restore them back to the position they need to be in to GROW, spiritually.

(I just opened my heart up to you.)

In fact, Angry, I love you! There's alot of potential in you.

Thanks, Shellz. That was a kind thing to say to a godless heathen such as myself. I'll even extend the sentiments and say that I love you back, in the way one human can have love and respect for another human, regardless of their spiritual disposition (or skin color or nationality or sexual preference).

What kind of potential do you see in me? I mean, I realize that in your eyes, I'm not living up to your definition of *full* potential, as I've yet to turn my life over to your Lord and Father. But take into account that besides this little technicality, I'm a very warm, caring and thoughtful person - and perhaps you can lower your bar of potential down a few notches to see that besides my disdain for versus your love of the scripture, we're not very different after all.

(I just opened my heart up to you.)

I'd open mine to you as well, but I just don't think you could get past your prejudice towards people who deny God as a creator enough to appreciate all I could open up with. I certainly don't want to solicit any sympathy from someone who is quite sure that I'm going to roast in hell for all of eternity (regardless of the *good* in me) if I don't change my mindset regarding God.

Thanks, Shellz. That was a kind thing to say to a godless heathen such as myself. I'll even extend the sentiments and say that I love you back, in the way one human can have love and respect for another human, regardless of their spiritual disposition (or skin color or nationality or sexual preference).

What kind of potential do you see in me? I mean, I realize that in your eyes, I'm not living up to your definition of *full* potential, as I've yet to turn my life over to your Lord and Father. But take into account that besides this little technicality, I'm a very warm, caring and thoughtful person - and perhaps you can lower your bar of potential down a few notches to see that besides my disdain for versus your love of the scripture, we're not very different after all.



I'd open mine to you as well, but I just don't think you could get past your prejudice towards people who deny God as a creator enough to appreciate all I could open up with. I certainly don't want to solicit any sympathy from someone who is quite sure that I'm going to roast in hell for all of eternity (regardless of the *good* in me) if I don't change my mindset regarding God.

Your words slay me, and your humility confounds me.
We're much the same, we just take different stands. You say what you believe without shame, regardless of the opinions and people who would charge at you in disagreement. I hope I'm not prejudice, but you've said that and after examining myself I see that as quite apparent in my own heart, and to you as well. I'm sorry for that. If ever my approach toward you has been to say you're going to burn in hell, forgive me, because that isn't my desire.

(This shows me, that all the "good" I would find within myself (human nature) to justify my own means proves to be worthless.) As a christian, I should NEVER let my 'good deeds' be a justification to me. My humanity can fail 100 times easier than it can succeed.

I believe that you would give someone the last of what you had, if you seen them in need. AngryFemme, you're a powerful writer, and a leader. You know where I'm going with this. I would define a leader as someone who can stand their ground, and not back down, even when odds are against them. I'm not saying odds are against you, but it seems to me you feel as if the majority of christians are. I would say alot of christians would feel the same, but never make an impact like their faith says they should unless they learn people aren't their enemies. People are truth seekers. I BELIEVE THIS WITH ALL THAT IS WITHIN ME.

As for not claiming Jesus as your Lord..
I too soon forget what it's like to have your family disown you because you don't stand where they do. It's good to remember. Angry, to be honest, not to classify you, but people like you remind me of the hope of humanity, and push me to go to greater depths.

I appreciate your honesty. Rather you can believe this or not.. I really do respect the honesty of unbelievers rather than the 'friendly' approach of believers. I'm the type that only understands and gets it when people come at me HARD. When they try to coax, and pat your shoulder, it does more harm than anything, but there are times, when I don't want to be hit in the face, but rather held so I can cry, and I don't want people to say much, just listen while I figure it out and get myself together. (That's usually when I mess up, and know I messed up. )

I need to find a balance, and for relationships with people, rather than "open-air" preaching. I heard someone once say, people don't care to know how much you know until they know how much you care. People came at me, the way I come at you guys, when I was an atheist, and to be honest, I didn't even give what they said a second thought. I would go to bed FINE at night, and not in fear. (Again it's good to be reminded.) Thank you. Again, I'm very sorry.

I don't regard you (or your Christian ilk) as my enemy.

What you and I have most in common is how we were raised into a faith system that used fear and intimidation to amass followers. How we differ is that you've found what you consider to be a comfortable, working alternative, and I opted to drop my faith entirely - which is a comfortable, working alternative from my perspective.

At the end of the day, or our lifetimes, for that matter - if both of us can honestly say that we've done more good than bad towards people, treating them with the same respect we'd like to be treated with - then I don't think our means of getting there should matter, at all.

Your last breath and moment of consciousness may be spent glorifying God for having walked with you during the course of your life. My last breath and moment of consciousness will be spent being thankful that I found the ability within me to live and love, absent of any kind of spiritual guidance.

Tell you what:
I promise not to pick on your style of ministering to the reading public, if you promise not to pray for me or point out how devoid my life is without God in it.

Deal?

Edit: No apology was necessary. That's the beauty of these open-air forums :)
Thanks, regardless. And Happy Holidays to you and yours.

I don't regard you (or your Christian ilk) as my enemy.

What you and I have most in common is how we were raised into a faith system that used fear and intimidation to amass followers. How we differ is that you've found what you consider to be a comfortable, working alternative, and I opted to drop my faith entirely - which is a comfortable, working alternative from my perspective.

At the end of the day, or our lifetimes, for that matter - if both of us can honestly say that we've done more good than bad towards people, treating them with the same respect we'd like to be treated with - then I don't think our means of getting there should matter, at all.

Your last breath and moment of consciousness may be spent glorifying God for having walked with you during the course of your life. My last breath and moment of consciousness will be spent being thankful that I found the ability within me to live and love, absent of any kind of spiritual guidance.

Tell you what:
I promise not to pick on your style of ministering to the reading public, if you promise not to pray for me or point out how devoid my life is without God in it.

Deal?

I'll not point out how devoid you life is without God in it. You have my word on that, but as for prayer... You're just going to have to keep pickin on me. I wouldn't be a christian that loved you if I didn't. I'm not saying that so you know, because to be honest I'm not going to pray unless I feel God wants me to.

In most cases belief is inspired by some sort of life changing (and usually depressing) experience which allowed these people to "feel" the presence of God. That's unfair! Assuming god really does exist, the people that go through some dramatic experience have an edge when it comes to faith.!

For some reason that made me think of this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_S%C3%B8ren_Kierkegaard#Dread_or_anxi ety

The last and lowest form of despair is the desire "In despair to will to be oneself." This last form of despair is also referred to by Kierkegaard as "demonic despair" (Note that the term demonic is used in the Classical Greek Sense, not the modern sense). In this form of despair, the individual finds him or herself in despair, understands they are in despair, and seeks some way to alleviate it, and yet no help is forthcoming. As a result, the self becomes hardened against any form of help and "Even if God in heaven and all the angels offered him aid, he would not want it." At this level of despair the individual revels in their own despair and sees their own pain as lifting them up above the base nature of other men who do not find themselves in this state


Essentially, the only way to happiness is through despair.

Essentially, the only way to happiness is through despair.

Damn... and I thought I was doing it right...

Your a generalizing cunt. I believe in God based off of basic logic, faith is second.

Haven't you heard of the possibility of everything aligning so perfectly to create a liveable enviornment and life is so tiny and minute, but somehow it works? If you read up on that you will realize its legit.

I'm quite familiar with the possibility... if that's the basis of your faith, god exists because life is (in the popular estimate you choose to align yourself with) highly unlikely and it needs a creator. Yhe creator, then, must be at least as complex as life, and even more unlikely to exist without its/his/her own creator. You involve yourself in an infinite regression here, so logically, you cannot use this statistic as evidence in favour of the existance of a God.