Alright, hear me out on this...

The whole point of any religion or faith is the concept of an afterlife. The afterlife is always touted by these religious people as being much more important than this life.

And of course, suicide is a sin according to most religions, I assume.

So then, wouldn't you you be doing any religious person a monumental favor by murdering them, as you will be sending them directly to the place they so long to be!?!?

Not necessarily. Most of them like to spread the word of Jesus so they can "save" hell-bound souls. But I guess once you get to heaven you completely forget about everyone else and stand in a drooling stupor amazed at the almighty Jesus for all eternity.

I think that it only works if they are taken by God himself.

I think that it only works if they are taken by God himself.

To them, everything is an act of God.

i have a friend who doesn't get sad when people die and wouldn't care if he got hit by a bus the next day because he "knows" he will live forever in heaven.

i have a friend who doesn't get sad when people die and wouldn't care if he got hit by a bus the next day because he "knows" he will live forever in heaven.

Exactly!

You guys, I'm seriously!

Isn't this like, the ultimate universal paradox, applicable to nearly every organized religion!?

We can find a huge Evangelical ceremony, and then tell some Muslim extremists that they're talking shit about Mohammad, and then BOOM!

A bunch of Christians are sent to heaven.
A few Muslims get to their heaven (with their 72 virgins too!).
And the world is rid of a bunch of non-free-thinking sheeple (known as societal parasites to some), decreasing the overall population (which some say is in abundance right now), and improving the lives of EVERYONE involved.

It's WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN!!!

Being killed does NOT qualify a Christian for getting into heaven. According to the bible, NO ONE is getting into that place, it's a fucking pipe dream.

A better argument is that we should kill all people below the age of consent, since they're all supposed to be allowed in regardless of their actions or non-actions.

Why stop at just people of faith??!

Kill! KILL THEM ALL!!!

God Will Know His Own!

(and I have that on papal authority)

Why stop at just people of faith??!

Kill! KILL THEM ALL!!!

God Will Know His Own!

(and I have that on papal authority)

But that has no benefits for those without faith.

People who don't believe in an afterlife value this life immensely. While people of faith either value this life very little (in comparison to how much they value their afterlife), or not at all.

what about Jews? They don't believe in an afterlife.

but then again, they are Jews.

what about Jews? They don't believe in an afterlife.

but then again, they are Jews.

Apparently they do. It's like a form of reincarnation.

And anyway, what kind of religion lacks an afterlife? That is the primary purpose for religion... To give people hope in exchange for their unrelenting blind faith.

Apparently they do. It's like a form of reincarnation.

And anyway, what kind of religion lacks an afterlife? That is the primary purpose for religion... To give people hope in exchange for their unrelenting blind faith.

The point of religion is to provide happiness. If you think about it, that is all it is about, providing some sort of happiness or contentment. Although sometimes trading reason for happiness is not a good idea.

The point of religion is to provide happiness. If you think about it, that is all it is about, providing some sort of happiness or contentment. Although sometimes trading reason for happiness is not a good idea.

And how do you think they derive this happiness? It's out of "knowing" the answers to questions they can't deal with. The main one is the fear of a permanent death. So naturally, an afterlife is one of the primary objectives of a religion.

Yes, it would be.

This is partially why Christianity grew exponentially around 250 - 306 under the reign of Roman Emperor Diocletian. With his persecution of the Christians (previously an underground sect) many of them were killed publicly in extraordinarily gruesome ways. When others saw that Christians could escape their fates merely by renouncing their beliefs, yet refused to do so - they began to think that the Christians must have known something they didn't. This lead to the explosion of Christianity in the early Western Roman Empire and continued under Constantine etc.

But regardless, if a Christian is asked to renounce their faith or die, and they choose death, then they are immediately considered 'martyrs' and sent to heaven.

And how do you think they derive this happiness? It's out of "knowing" the answers to questions they can't deal with. The main one is the fear of a permanent death. So naturally, an afterlife is one of the primary objectives of a religion.

What would the idea of an afterlife provide for people who fear death? Comfort. With an afterlife, they have one less thing to fear, if they fear death. Think of all the other components of religion, like someone watching over you, gods that will help and protect you, or hope for less suffering. All of these things would provide a sense of security or comfort. You don't look at glasses, you look through them.

Why stop at just people of faith??!

Kill! KILL THEM ALL!!!

I like how you think.

Marytr-o-matic - what a great screen name.

Since religions in general are a continuance of this life, to the next..

And since life consists of 'getting along' with your fellow man.. in other words; being nice, being charitable, etc.. (whether you are an Atheist, or not)..


Then I think the inverse of your question would be appropriate.


Killing people who don't think you should 'act' as if you will be accountable someday (ie. 'non-religious people')..


Would be a 'good thing' :)

Since religions in general are a continuance of this life, to the next..

And since life consists of 'getting along' with your fellow man.. in other words; being nice, being charitable, etc.. (whether you are an Atheist, or not)..


Then I think the inverse of your question would be appropriate.


Killing people who don't think you should 'act' as if you will be accountable someday (ie. 'non-religious people')..


Would be a 'good thing' :)

I have no idea what you just said.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you didn't try to imply that non-religious people are amoral...

what about Jews? They don't believe in an afterlife.

but then again, they are Jews.

Catholics don't either. Not sure where the other Christians got the idea that they got judged immediately after death from.

Catholics don't either. Not sure where the other Christians got the idea that they got judged immediately after death from.

Uhh... What?

Every main organized religion believes in an afterlife.

All Christian denominations, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc...

I'll argue about this next time we drink. Last discussion on philosophy and religion kinda got you wound up at the end.

I'll argue about this next time we drink. Last discussion on philosophy and religion kinda got you wound up at the end.

I'm down for that. :D

But I don't remember getting especially wound up... Do you know what it was in particular that might have set me off?

Or was it maybe just drunken exaggeration?

Anyway, this thread isn't meant to be taken as violent, amoral, or anti-religion, but rather as a theoretical paradox that points out that our human desire to live outweighs any possible faith in an afterlife.

Except for maybe in cases like Jonestown for example... :p

I'm down for that. :D

But I don't remember getting especially wound up... Do you know what it was in particular that might have set me off?

Or was it maybe just drunken exaggeration?

Anyway, this thread isn't meant to be taken as violent, amoral, or anti-religion, but rather as a theoretical paradox that points out that our human desire to live outweighs any possible faith in an afterlife.

Except for maybe in cases like Jonestown for example... :p

You got ideas of multiple dimensions, various realities, philosophies, agnosticism, aliens, and a bunch of other stuff combined while you were pretty drunk and constantly had to ask me if I was real, if something was real, how could I be sure if I was real, how could I be sure if you were real, whether things in a dimension beyond on our perception were mocking us, etc. You also kinda spun around a lot while you were asking things so I'd say it wound you up something good. You didn't like getting the reply "Sure, why not?" to most of the questions. I'm sure the alcohol was a solid factor as we drank a lot all day and all night.

You got ideas of multiple dimensions, various realities, philosophies, agnosticism, aliens, and a bunch of other stuff combined while you were pretty drunk and constantly had to ask me if I was real, if something was real, how could I be sure if I was real, how could I be sure if you were real, whether things in a dimension beyond on our perception were mocking us, etc. You also kinda spun around a lot while you were asking things so I'd say it wound you up something good. You didn't like getting the reply "Sure, why not?" to most of the questions. I'm sure the alcohol was a solid factor as we drank a lot all day and all night.

OHHH that time... :D

Yeah, I barely even remember that part of that particular evening. I was pretty intoxicated.

Last time we hung out though, I felt like I was pretty much under control. If anything, you were the drunker one last time, I think... :p

OHHH that time... :D

Yeah, I barely even remember that part of that particular evening. I was pretty intoxicated.

Last time we hung out though, I felt like I was pretty much under control. If anything, you were the drunker one last time, I think... :p

I meant last time under the context it was the last time we discussed philosophy. The actual last time we hung out, yes, I think I was the more drunken one. Also Akvavit is completely unavailable in Ontario until January.

Enough of this though. It'd detracting from the thread.

Also Akvavit is completely unavailable in Ontario until January.

That sucks that it won't be ready for New Years...

But at least it will be available pretty soon.

I have no idea what you just said.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you didn't try to imply that non-religious people are amoral...

Actually I was.. as much as you were implying that religious people were amoral (and therefore needed to be helped along to their Heaven, by having non-believers: 'murder them'.

Actually I was.. as much as you were implying that religious people were amoral (and therefore needed to be helped along to their Heaven, by having non-believers: 'murder them'.

Wow.

You missed the point of this thread severely.

Let me try to rephrase it as best I can...

Let's suppose that life in Heaven is better than life on Earth.

So one would naturally infer that the sooner one gets into Heaven, the better.

Therefor, killing anyone who believes that Heaven is superior to Earth is actually doing THAT person a huge favor.

This has absolutely nothing to do with anyone doing anything wrong.

The person killing the religious person is doing a good deed.

The religious person goes straight to Heaven.

Do you understand it now?

And suggesting that atheists are automatically amoral, and/or that people of faith are automatically moral sickens me.

But that is a whole other can of worms for a whole other thread.

And of course, suicide is a sin according to most religions, I assume.


Many Christians believe that Jesus would forgive any sin except blasphemy against the 'Holy Spirit'. So they could definately commit suicide and still be forgiven in death; at least according to that brand of Christianity.

Fun Fact: Digital Savior is one of those Christians.

Fun Fact: Digital Savior is one of those Christians.

DS has offed herself? That would explain her absence.

That would explain her absence, but no, as far as I know, she hasn't commited suicide.

It appears she doesn't want to be united with God in Heaven that much... for some unknown reason. :confused:

Every main organized religion believes in an afterlife.

All Christian denominations, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, etc...

If you call being dead until your physical body is re-animated an afterlife then you are right.

Although from the perspective of a dead person there really would be no noticeable difference.

If you call being dead until your physical body is re-animated an afterlife then you are right.

Although from the perspective of a dead person there really would be no noticeable difference.

http://www.stillcatholic.com/CATHHeaven.htm

http://www.catholic.org/diocese/diocese_story.php?id=23228

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm

I have no idea where you got the idea that Catholics don't have an after life, but here are some examples of descriptions of Catholic heaven.

I have no idea where you got the idea that Catholics don't have an after life, but here are some examples of descriptions of Catholic heaven.

The part where they want you to keep you body in one place and preferably in one peice. Seriously if you get cremated they don't want you to make God's job any harder by spreading the pieces all around the world.

The part where they want you to keep you body in one place and preferably in one peice. Seriously if you get cremated they don't want you to make God's job any harder by spreading the pieces all around the world.

You're gonna have to elaborate on that or something, because I don't quite see what you're getting at...

All religions offer an afterlife of some kind... Including (or even, especially) Catholicism.

All religions offer an afterlife of some kind... Including (or even, especially) Catholicism.

Having your body resurected is no more an afterlife than getting CPR.

Having your body resurected is no more an afterlife than getting CPR.

Ok, wtf are you talking about? Seriously...

:confused:

Ok, wtf are you talking about? Seriously...

:confused:

Jews and Catholics believe that your physical body will be resurected on judgement day. If an Orthodox Jew gets splatered all over the pavement a Rabi will come and collect as much blood as posible so it can be buried witht the rest of the body saving God the trouble of finding it on Judgement Day. Catholics usaly don't care that much about blood but they don't like cremation unless all the ashes are buried in one place. And when pope John Paul II got shot they embalmed the chunk of intestine that got removed so that God could put it back in for him later.

Jews and Catholics believe that your physical body will be resurected on judgement day. If an Orthodox Jew gets splatered all over the pavement a Rabi will come and collect as much blood as posible so it can be buried witht the rest of the body saving God the trouble of finding it on Judgement Day. Catholics usaly don't care that much about blood but they don't like cremation unless all the ashes are buried in one place. And when pope John Paul II got shot they embalmed the chunk of intestine that got removed so that God could put it back in for him later.

Those 3 sites I pasted here a few posts back seemed to describe something completely different.

I'm pretty sure that there is a "regular afterlife" in between any current deaths and this so called judgment day.

I would like to see some sources (preferably at least 3 credible sources) that refute the 3 that I posted. That would at least help give you some leverage here.

Because I'm pretty sure there's a reason I have never heard of this particular afterlife you describe...

And regardless...

That is still an afterlife. You're completely derailing this thread by diverting from the main point.

An afterlife is an afterlife. If Jews and Catholics didn't desire this afterlife in some way, then they wouldn't be fucking Jews or Catholics to begin with, now would they!?

http://www.catholic.com/library/Resurrection_of_the_Body.asp

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12792a.htm

Here's two for now

1) That has absolutely nothing to do with immediately after dying. There is a regular heaven in between death and resurrection.

2) Refer to my most recent post. We're off that topic now anyway. This was just a huge derailment from the original discussion.

And suggesting that atheists are automatically amoral, and/or that people of faith are automatically moral sickens me.

But that is a whole other can of worms for a whole other thread.

That is not what I was saying, or even implying.

And I re-read the thread and understand where you are coming from a little better... but.. you have to admit, the slant you are using, is pretty strong.

That is not what I was saying, or even implying.

And I re-read the thread and understand where you are coming from a little better... but.. you have to admit, the slant you are using, is pretty strong.

It only comes off as a slant because it is such an unusual suggestion.

I mean, what religious person can afford to take this question seriously? If they do, then they are in quite a dilemma. They must either:

A) Admit to wanting to die, which opens up it's own set of problems.
or
B) Admit that the afterlife isn't as important to them as they once thought, causing them to rethink their entire faith altogether.

Its not about 'wanting to die' it would be about being 'willing to die' - theres a difference. No Christians would not want somebody to come kill them so they could get to Heaven quicker, but neither would they fear death if you were killing them because they were Christian - they would 'know' that by being martyred they would gain everlasting life in heaven'.

Its not about 'wanting to die' it would be about being 'willing to die' - theres a difference. No Christians would not want somebody to come kill them so they could get to Heaven quicker, but neither would they fear death if you were killing them because they were Christian - they would 'know' that by being martyred they would gain everlasting life in heaven'.

Alright, I see what you're saying.

I guess there is a bit of a difference there.

Being killed does NOT qualify a Christian for getting into heaven. According to the bible, NO ONE is getting into that place, it's a fucking pipe dream.

A better argument is that we should kill all people below the age of consent, since they're all supposed to be allowed in regardless of their actions or non-actions.

BITCH I AM GOING TO BE ONE OF THOSE 110,000 EVERYONE ELSE CAN GTFO!!!!!!!!!!!

:mad:

unless john of patmos took too much lsd