MGCBTSOYG..

I'm obviously not about to type that out.
1Kings 18:21-39
Elijah, says to this people, "How long will you waver, if the LORD is God follow Him, if Baal, follow him." He basically said, MAKE A DECISION AND QUIT TRYING TO SAY THIS AND THEN DO THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU SAY. MAKE A DECISION AND A COMMITMENT WITH YOUR LIFE. THERE'S ONE GOD, NOW LET'S FIND OUT WHO'S GOD IS GOD. "

They build an altar, with a sacrifice, for their 'god' and pray for their god to consume the sacrifice. It didn't work. They begin to cut themselves, BLEEDING for a belief that was a lie.

Elijah said, "Come on." He repaired the old altar of the Lord that had been torn down by Jezebel. Had the pail filled with water... LOGIC SAYS water puts fire out. His faith said, "This fire's going to be so consuming it'll consume every last drop of water." The sacrifice was placed upon the altar, and He said, "Lord, show them you are God." (I'm paraphrasing.) The sacrifice was consumed, and they worshipped the Lord, who is God.

Where am I going with this for a topic? What or who do you worship? What do you devote your affection and emotion to? Because what you do, is what you worship. That's where your heart is. Next question.. What has your idol, your god, done for you? Compel you to bleed and not even respond? Perhaps I'm being too philosophical here. Have you poured your emotions into your god, and your life without recieveing anything, not even healing for your wounds?

Yeah, I want you to think and examine your life. Christian or not. You may say your a christian, yet the same quesitons are directed at you. I've seen so many 'christians' and MOST of them acted NOTHING like Christ. In fact, they looked alot like hypocrites who clung to a lie that would enable them to live like hell and 'make heaven' without consequences of their actions. Live like the world, reach the world, so they can keep living like they are but with the hope of death bringing them the solace they so desire. COME ON. This world doesn't need the Christ you're trying to market if they can do the same thing and get the same result without having a hope for your lies. These people already desire death, and they already have vision. To make an impact, and leave a legacy. I can keep going but I'll stop with that.

Shellz -

Would your God love you any less if you didn't recruit for him?

"I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians."

-Ghandi

Look in other religious cannons. You will find that they too have parables and stories that PROVE jehovah is a false god. What you call God, other EQUALLY deluded people call the Matrix.

It is easy to prove your religion with the very book that SPAWNED your religion. L. Ron Hubbard and Joseph Smith are PRIME examples of how easy it is to fool the weak minded emotionally crippled people of the world with a work of fiction. In the case of Mr. Hubbard this is a RECENT work of fiction that is now a bonafide religion.

Is it really so hard for you to imaginge an L. Ron Hubbard type individual creating the Bible? Is it hard or just scary to accept the reality of the world. We are alone. We die and rot. Those are the only facts we have. Your fantasy IS more comforting I will contend.

Shellz -

Would your God love you any less if you didn't recruit for him?

Answer to your question. No. He wouldn't. But He'd hold me accountable. If My God's love for me drove Him to a cross and crucifixion, and He shed's that same LOVE abroad in my heart the moment I'm born-again. What should His love for the would in a human, like He was, compel us to do for our fellow-man?

If I had a friend, that I loved and cherrish, and I knew something that would save them from a tragic eternity, and I didn't tell them what I knew, would you not say I help aid them in their path to destruction? I didn't shoot the gun, but I didn't stop them from firing either.

For Broke prophet. First of all, I have to clearly state you're not a prophet. Secondly, what sets Christianity apart from every other religion, I have a resurrected saviour, that didn't ask me from something He wasn't willing to FIRST give. I love Him, because HE FIRST loved me. He never asked me to forgive without a willingness to forgive. He never asked me to go without having gone first. He never asked me to endure something He didn't endure first for me. I have a saviour that know my struggles, because He faced them too. His divinity overcome his humanity, but humanity without HIS DIVINITY is bound to fail in an unsuccessful attempt to succeed. I could go further with everything you said, and pick it apart line upon line, in rebuttal to your stance. For what reason? Come on. For selfishness? People who have to be right, only care about other's responses to who they are and where they stand. People who have to be right, aren't assured of what they believe. I know because I use to be that person. Big mouth, humming bird butt. Pride will drive a quick response from a person, and they don't come at you like they care, they come at you like they're right and they want you to see how right they are.

I'm not right, in fact if you look into my life you'll discover MANY, SEVERAL flaws. I don't even try to conceal them anymore. They're there and even though it's as if an arrow in my heart, I have to live with it, and rely on his provision to make the Way even for a person like me. He's right though. When I hear His Word come forth, when I read His Word and He shows me how wrong I've been because He loves me and wants expose sin for what it is so I'll not be overcome by it, so I can run this race, I want to argue with Him. I want to reason with Him, but He stands. I can either shun His Word or measure up. I'm going to measure up, because Christ's in me, not quit. Let's thank God Christ didn't quit.

For Broke prophet. First of all, I have to clearly state you're not a prophet. Secondly, what sets Christianity apart from every other religion, I have a resurrected saviour, that didn't ask me from something He wasn't willing to FIRST give. I love Him, because HE FIRST loved me.

Two hands working produce more than ten thousand hands in prayer

Martyrdom, Living sacrifice or sacrifices that live on, Love, and resurrection are NOTHING new in mythology. These concepts are not new and stink of a myriad of religions PREDATING your christ. The ancient Egyptian religion Chrisitianity borrowed from is SO MUCH more interesting. The original is better than your religion's OBVIOUS plagerism.

I KNOW this, YOU refuse to see it, and cannot KNOW it. Your meme makes you weak in, at the very least, this respect. So throw up your mental brick wall and shy from all contrary evidence as you MUST.

Your faith makes you weak.

Give a man a fish, feed him for a day; Teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime; Give a man religion, he will starve while praying for a fish.

You're as REPELLENT as you are OBNOXIOUS, HellzShellz.

If I had a friend, that I loved and cherrish, and I knew something that would save them from a tragic eternity, and I didn't tell them what I knew, would you not say I help aid them in their path to destruction? I didn't shoot the gun, but I didn't stop them from firing either.

Can you actually imagine your loved ones (or anyone else for that matter) being tortured in the fiery pits of hell for all eternity? How could you praise an entity that would inflict that kind of suffering on one of your own kind, just for not worshipping him? Suppose everything else about this friend was morally upstanding, sans the belief, praise and submission.

Can you actually imagine your loved ones (or anyone else for that matter) being tortured in the fiery pits of hell for all eternity? How could you praise an entity that would inflict that kind of suffering on one of your own kind, just for not worshipping him? Suppose everything else about this friend was morally upstanding, sans the belief, praise and submission.

That's exactly it, Femme. That's exactly it. I would beg God to send me to hell for your punishment and you be with Him. I would want to take your place. This is my heart, and now I say this with tears forming in my eyes. I've thought about this a million times. My loved ones, in hell, and me knowing they're not there with me with God... but that's exactly what God did in Christ. His heart pains for you and others just like His love pains in me for a longing for your solace and fellowship with Him. Sin has a price. That price was paid for.

I've faced this same question before, from a co-worker. He was from Iran. Muslim. He said, "Shelly, if I could just get your to see, that we're all one people, and there's one God it would be great. The problem I have with you as a christian is you think I'm going to hell." I cried and had to run to the bathroom to stop. I said, "Sean, if you could get to heaven based on your own righteousness and good deeds, there isn't a doubt in my mind you'd be there, but you can't, because your personal sins disqualify you to such a place. Which is why Jesus paid the price of our sin so we wouldn't have to and we could take on His righteousness in our approach to God, because sin can not stand before a holy God."

He didn't become a convert. He acknowledges the fact Jesus exists, but He doesn't follow the faith, and calls Christ a prophet. This guy is a great guy. So loving, and soft spoken, passionate and caring, but marked with imperfection like the rest of humanity. I carry Him in my heart. I carry you in my heart. I carry Julie in my heart, because God can't stop longing for a relationship with any of you, but He is a gentlemen, and will never force us to love Him when we don't want to.


"BrokeProphet"- I was an atheist at one point, and at one time I would have agreed with everything you said. I'm convinced though. God's proven Himself to me time and time again, even when I've messed up. I don't avoid what you call "reality" I just see that the things that are seen are effected by the things that aren't seen. You can't see the wind, but you can see it's effects. You can't see the seeds under the ground when you've sown crop, but you can see it when it surfaces. You can't even be certain that it's growing until it has surfaced. That requires faith. To believe that something you can't see will produce what you can see.

Broke, I'm weak because of my faith? Quite opposite. You're weak! Why don't YOU try living the life I'm living? It requires more to BELIEVE than to NOT believe.

That's exactly it, Femme. That's exactly it. I would beg God to send me to hell for your punishment and you be with Him. I would want to take your place.

Tell me, Shellz - what exactly am I getting punished for, again? Imperfection as a human being?

That's exactly it, Femme. That's exactly it. I would beg God to send me to hell for your punishment and you be with Him. I would want to take your place. This is my heart, and now I say this with tears forming in my eyes. I've thought about this a million times. My loved ones, in hell, and me knowing they're not there with me with God... but that's exactly what God did in Christ. His heart pains for you and others just like His love pains in me for a longing for your solace and fellowship with Him. Sin has a price. That price was paid for.


Somehow you've missed the main point of AF's question.

AngryFemme askes:

How could you praise an entity that would inflict that kind of suffering on one of your own kind, just for not worshipping him?

Allow me to reword her question slightly:

How could you praise an entity that would eternally torture those who He created, in a particularly nasty place named Hell (also created by Him solely for the purpose of doing so), simply for not worshipping Him? On top of that, He requires that you must believe in Him through faith because He refuses to reveal Himself in any physical way (even though such a physical revelation would surely result in potentially millions, perhaps billions of His creations worshipping Him).

Why do you believe that such a being is worthy of adoration and worship?

Somehow you've missed the main point of AF's question.

AngryFemme askes:



Allow me to reword her question slightly:

How could you praise an entity that would eternally torture those who He created, in a particularly nasty place named Hell (also created by Him solely for the purpose of doing so), simply for not worshipping Him? On top of that, He requires that you must believe in Him through faith because He refuses to reveal Himself in any physical way (even though such a physical revelation would surely result in potentially millions, perhaps billions of His creations worshipping Him).

Why do you believe that such a being is worthy of adoration and worship?

Because I love Him. His judgements are just, and He's given us all a decision to make. He gives us over to the desires of our heart.

Revelation 16:9
People were severely burned (scorched) by the fiery heat, and they reviled and blasphemed the name of God, Who has control of these plagues, and they did not repent of their sins [felt no regret, contrition, and compunction for their waywardness, refusing to amend their ways] to give Him glory.

Hebrews 10:26 & 27
26For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward].
27[There is nothing left for us then] but a kind of awful and fearful prospect and expectation of divine judgment and the fury of burning wrath and indignation which will consume those who put themselves in opposition [to God].

Romans 1:28 And so, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing, God gave them over to a base and condemned mind to do things not proper or decent but loathsome,


Revelations 3:19 & 20
19Those whom I [dearly and tenderly] love, I tell their faults and convict and convince and reprove and chasten . So be enthusiastic and in earnest and burning with zeal and repent [changing your mind and attitude].
20Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears and listens to and heeds My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will eat with him, and he [will eat] with Me.


He gave the invitation, made the preparations, and He's waiting on the acceptance of the letter. He's waiting on the fullness of the RSVP if you will. You do have your rights to choose. You don't have to serve the God I serve, but I have to voice the Truth, because if you or anyone else I came in contact with in ANY way died and didn't hear the Truth, I'd blame myself. We're promised to hear the Truth ONCE, but in a country like AMERICA, it's richly spoken of, and in turn, taken for granted. God is a just God.

His love [i]demands mercy. His justice requires judgement.

I really want yall to know I love each of you. I do. I love the way you guys demand TRUTH, and seek it out. Quick to look at someone and know if they're phony or not. It's like there's a built in discernment thing about this generation. You guys LIVE to DISCOVER truth. In fact, it's the mandate of your hearts. Even though we're all stained with sin, and even though we may not believe the same, you guys still hold the bond of humanity and have compassion on your fellow man. No wonder why God wants this generation. You have more revelation on how the assembly should operate than the people in the building on Sundays. You guys KNOW MORE than you know you know. I wish I could make you guys see that. You're little precious gits of glory, and God desires each of you. I just want for you guys to know that.

You're little precious gits of glory, and God desires each of you. I just want for you guys to know that.

When she's right, she's right.

(or does 'git' mean something different in american?)

I don't avoid what you call "reality" I just see that the things that are seen are effected by the things that aren't seen. You can't see the wind, but you can see it's effects. You can't see the seeds under the ground when you've sown crop, but you can see it when it surfaces.

Equating your belief in God to belief in the wind is a failure.

The wind is felt by all. Not merely some who were told at a young age the wind is there. The wind has empirical evidence and can be studied and even predicted to a degree. The growth of seeds can be studied and crop growth can even be predicted to a degree. These things are not as left to pure chance, are not unseen, and certainly not as completely intangible and invisible as God.

Broke, I'm weak because of my faith? Quite opposite. You're weak! Why don't YOU try living the life I'm living? It requires more to BELIEVE than to NOT believe.

I have lived the life you live as well. I was a theist. I TRIED my ass off to believe, but my brain simply won out in the end. I am liberated from external invisible fantastical ideas that used to occupy my thoughts.

I am positive it requires more effort to believe in God than to not believe. This effort takes the form of your inability to ever fully except the fantasy of God. You have to work at deluding yourself. You have to squash those doubts and beg forgiveness for them. You have to beat your head against a bible until all reason and logic flee your fucking mind.

You have your doubts and you always will. Why not trust in your mind, in your guts, you KNOW that this is bullshit.

Remember this, no matter how much you want it to be true, it will not be. This is why you cry.

Because I love Him. His judgements are just, and He's given us all a decision to make. He gives us over to the desires of our heart.

Revelation 16:9
People were severely burned (scorched) by the fiery heat, and they reviled and blasphemed the name of God, Who has control of these plagues, and they did not repent of their sins [felt no regret, contrition, and compunction for their waywardness, refusing to amend their ways] to give Him glory.

Hebrews 10:26 & 27
26For if we go on deliberately and willingly sinning after once acquiring the knowledge of the Truth, there is no longer any sacrifice left to atone for [our] sins [no further offering to which to look forward].
27[There is nothing left for us then] but a kind of awful and fearful prospect and expectation of divine judgment and the fury of burning wrath and indignation which will consume those who put themselves in opposition [to God].

Romans 1:28 And so, since they did not see fit to acknowledge God or approve of Him or consider Him worth the knowing, God gave them over to a base and condemned mind to do things not proper or decent but loathsome,


Revelations 3:19 & 20
19Those whom I [dearly and tenderly] love, I tell their faults and convict and convince and reprove and chasten . So be enthusiastic and in earnest and burning with zeal and repent [changing your mind and attitude].
20Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears and listens to and heeds My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will eat with him, and he [will eat] with Me.


He gave the invitation, made the preparations, and He's waiting on the acceptance of the letter. He's waiting on the fullness of the RSVP if you will. You do have your rights to choose. You don't have to serve the God I serve, but I have to voice the Truth, because if you or anyone else I came in contact with in ANY way died and didn't hear the Truth, I'd blame myself. We're promised to hear the Truth ONCE, but in a country like AMERICA, it's richly spoken of, and in turn, taken for granted. God is a just God.

His love [I]demands mercy. His justice requires judgement.

The God you describe is far from being a just and loving entity. In fact, what you describe is one sadistic,malevolent asshole.

How can you believe that any loving God would offer only the options *complete willing subservience* or *suffer eternal torture*?

Yeah, that sounds like someone I want to worship! :rolleyes:

The God you describe is far from being a just and loving entity. In fact, what you describe is one sadistic,malevolent asshole.

How can you believe that any loving God would offer only the options *complete willing subservience* or *suffer eternal torture*?

Yeah, that sounds like someone I want to worship! :rolleyes:

I can't see where it offers only those two options. The way I've read it seems reasonable. Once you have knowledge of God, and you continue to sin, you are doing the ultimate wrong. This seems pretty obvious: If you know what you are doing is wrong, and you do it anyway, then you are doing wrong.

Now, supposing you aquire knowledge (Or the Truth in this case) of what is right and wrong; perhaps after death, who knows, and you are shown all the things you have done that are bad, and they ARE bad, and you do not regret doing something that is bad, then aren't you bad?

Seems pretty good to me, punish those that are bad; those that are willing to change are given cool shit. Pretty cool.

I can't see where it offers only those two options. The way I've read it seems reasonable. Once you have knowledge of God, and you continue to sin, you are doing the ultimate wrong. This seems pretty obvious: If you know what you are doing is wrong, and you do it anyway, then you are doing wrong.

Now, supposing you aquire knowledge (Or the Truth in this case) of what is right and wrong; perhaps after death, who knows, and you are shown all the things you have done that are bad, and they ARE bad, and you do not regret doing something that is bad, then aren't you bad?

Seems pretty good to me, punish those that are bad; those that are willing to change are given cool shit. Pretty cool.


No, there are only two options. Submit or be tortured.

A person need not be bad to be punished by God. A person can be good in every respect, can do good deeds with no expectation of reward, can be totally selfless toward all of humanity, and will still be doomed to eternal torment for not worshipping God.

No, there are only two options. Submit or be tortured.

A person need not be bad to be punished by God. A person can be good in every respect, can do good deeds with no expectation of reward, can be totally selfless toward all of humanity, and will still be doomed to eternal torment for not worshipping God.

Right. Ok.

Source?

Right. Ok.

Source?

"28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."

-- Mark 3:28-29. Bible. King James ver.


"Worshiping God" is essentially the same as non-blasphemous reverence to the Holy Spirit.

Those who have taken the "Blasphemy Challenge" (http://www.blasphemychallenge.com/) can lead amazing lives, save millions of people, do any act of good you can imagine, but, according to the bible, they are still screwed.

"28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."

-- Mark 3:28-29. Bible. King James ver.


"Worshiping God" is essentially the same as non-blasphemous reverence to the Holy Spirit.

Those who have taken the "Blasphemy Challenge" (http://www.blasphemychallenge.com/) can lead amazing lives, save millions of people, do any act of good you can imagine, but, according to the bible, they are still screwed.

That fucking verse has caused more mental anguish and torment than almost any other.

You see, when Xtians go 'insane' (psychosis whatever) it tends to revolve around guilt...soul destroying, crushing GUILT and all of them , every single last one of them, is CONVINCED they have sinned against the Holy Ghost and is therefore damned.

Seen it so many times and its heart wrenching.

"28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."

-- Mark 3:28-29. Bible. King James ver.


"Worshiping God" is essentially the same as non-blasphemous reverence to the Holy Spirit.

Those who have taken the "Blasphemy Challenge" (http://www.blasphemychallenge.com/) can lead amazing lives, save millions of people, do any act of good you can imagine, but, according to the bible, they are still screwed.


I was gonna post that exact same verse yesterday, but didn't.

Right, now we have this verse, how do we figure out what it means? I mean how do you sin against the Holy Spirit/Ghost?

I was gonna post that exact same verse yesterday, but didn't.

Right, now we have this verse, how do we figure out what it means? I mean how do you sin against the Holy Spirit/Ghost?

By not accepting it.

All sins are forgiven except the denial of Forgiveness itself.
How does one accept Forgiveness? Well first, you need to recognize that you've sinned against God. You have wronged nothing but God - you have not sinned against yourself, you have not sinned against others, you have simply sinned against God (which happens to hurt yourself and others). When you acknowledge that fact, and accept the fact that God has forgiven your sins (past, present, and future), you have accepted the Spirit, which is Forgiveness.

God is Law (Judgment, Salvation, Destruction)
Spirit is Forgiveness (Atonement, Reconciliation, etc)
Christ is Sacrifice (Love, Mercy, Compassion, Harmony, etc.)

By the sacrifice of Christ we can receive the Spirit and find God's Salvation in Judgment.

Hope that cleared it up at all Jesuit.

That fucking verse has caused more mental anguish and torment than almost any other.

You see, when Xtians go 'insane' (psychosis whatever) it tends to revolve around guilt...soul destroying, crushing GUILT and all of them , every single last one of them, is CONVINCED they have sinned against the Holy Ghost and is therefore damned.

Seen it so many times and its heart wrenching.

Wow, that is heart-wrenching. My ex was like that. She believed in God, Christ, the Spirit, and all this stuff...but still thought she was beyond forgiveness. Yeah, like anything we humans can do is capable of making God take his Word back...

I mean how do you sin against the Holy Spirit/Ghost?

Blaspheme is defined pretty much as you would imagine:


It is heretical when the insult to God involves a declaration that is against faith, as in the assertion: "God is cruel and unjust" or "The noblest work of man is God".
It is imprecatory when it would cry a malediction upon the Supreme Being as when one would say: "Away with God".
It is simply contumacious when it is wholly made up of contempt of, or indignation towards, God, as in the blasphemy of Julian the Apostate: "Thou has conquered, O Galilaean".

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02595a.htm

Even if we didn't know what blaspheming entailed, we could just call it X. One could live a life of good deeds, do X, and be condemned.

Blaspheme is defined pretty much as you would imagine:


It is heretical when the insult to God involves a declaration that is against faith, as in the assertion: "God is cruel and unjust" or "The noblest work of man is God".
It is imprecatory when it would cry a malediction upon the Supreme Being as when one would say: "Away with God".
It is simply contumacious when it is wholly made up of contempt of, or indignation towards, God, as in the blasphemy of Julian the Apostate: "Thou has conquered, O Galilaean".

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02595a.htm

Even if we didn't know what blaspheming entailed, we could just call it X. One could live a life of good deeds, do X, and be condemned.


This doesn't really clarify anything though. Call blasphemy against the holy spirit X, and we learn nothing, we have just given a new name to blaspheming the holy spirit.

Personally the most likely answer seems to be echoing hex's post.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and give my interpretation of this passage. it clearly says that ALL sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven. It then says that blaspheming the Holy Spirit is unforgivable. This makes me think that blaspheming the holy spirit is in a differant order to simply calling the Holy Ghost a cocksucker. It then says (in my bible) that he who blasphemes the Holy spirit is guilty of an eternal sin. Earlier it says that any of the blasphemies and sins of men may be forgiven. Men can repent and so are forgiven. So it seems to me that blaspheming the Holy Spirit is something that does not rely on words, but requires a concious effort on the one blaspheming the Holy spirit.

Looking a bit later through the Bible I've found this : 'There is no condemnation for those who are in Jesus Christ, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.' Romans 8:1-2

You may disagree with me here, but it seems that someone is 'in Jesus Christ' when they live according to the Spirit, the opposite of this is the 'sinful nature'. The Spirit seems to be morality and sleflessness, or avoiding selfish material goals, whereas the 'sinful nature' seems to be following only ones desires and whims.

Now, if we go forward a bit we can read : 'The mind of the sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful man is hostile to God... Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.' Romans 8:6-9

So, maybe blaspheming against the Holy spirit requires that one lives selfishly and immorally, living only for themselves and their instincts, even when they are aware that they are causing harm. Living according to sinful nature is opposite to those commandments that he gives as being the greatest loving God would mean that you would avoid the sinful nature and live 'in the spirit' as much as you could, and if you love your neighbour as yourself then you are livng by the Spirit as you become a good person.


Man, I hope that makes sense.

And, God, do I hope this computer doesn't crash.

This doesn't really clarify anything though. Call blasphemy against the holy spirit X, and we learn nothing, we have just given a new name to blaspheming the holy spirit.

It certainly does clarify something. You might not like what it clarifies, but it does clarify the fact that I can lead a good life, and if I do X (be it calling the Spirit a "doodoo-head", doing some weird ritual, or something else) then I am doomed.


Personally the most likely answer seems to be echoing hex's post.Yet Hex's post doesn't contradict the main point: one can live a good life, and if one "denies Forgiveness itself" (the unforgivable sin according to him) then one is doomed. Same thing.

As for the rest, you're confusing living according to the "Spirit" with the "Spirit" itself. Living "selfishly and immorally" is a forgivable sin; numerous characters showing these characteristics were forgiven in the Bible. The only unforgivable sin is Blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, and I've already given you the definition of Blasphemy.

You might not like the conclusion, but that's the conclusion.

It certainly does clarify something. You might not like what it clarifies, but it does clarify the fact that I can lead a good life, and if I do X (be it calling the Spirit a "doodoo-head", doing some weird ritual, or something else) then I am doomed.

Okay, well now we agree that doing X is bad, and that it will doom you, what is X?

Yet Hex's post doesn't contradict the main point: one can live a good life, and if one "denies Forgiveness itself" (the unforgivable sin according to him) then one is doomed. Same thing.

I can't really think how to reply to this really. If you do X and get condemned, then you do X and get condemened. I don't have a problem with that. Seems rational to me.

As for the rest, you're confusing living according to the "Spirit" with the "Spirit" itself. Living "selfishly and immorally" is a forgivable sin; numerous characters showing these characteristics were forgiven in the Bible. The only unforgivable sin is Blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, and I've already given you the definition of Blasphemy.

You might not like the conclusion, but that's the conclusion.

If you can show me the differance between the spirit and where I should draw the division I'd be more than happy for you to tell me.

Living selfishly and immorally are forgivable sins, and so is blasphemy, what I'm trying to get across (which I should of actually said really. May've helped :rolleyes:) is that if one persists in conciously in Sin, and they continue to deny the Spirit, then , yes they are condemning themselves. The way I envision it is that once dead, or whatever, we can ask for forgiveness, or we can be aware of our lives and what we have done wrong, however if we know what we have done wrong, knowing it is wrong, and yet not feel regret, then we are blaspheming the Holy Spirit by refusing forgiveness.

If normal blasphemy can be forgiven, then words mean nothing. I can't remember the passage , but in one passage Jesus say something along the lines that what makes one bad is his heart, and what is inside him is what matters. Although, if I remember rightly, that same passage could be used to say that words are actually really important, so really I'm doing myself many favours :S

SOrry this is a bit choppy, I'm have to go out, so It's not exactly great.

If you still want more context for what "Blasphemy" is, look at Leviticus 24:10-23:

"Now the son of an Israelite woman, whose father was an Egyptian, went out among the sons of Israel; and the Israelite woman’s son and a man of Israel struggled with each other in the camp. 11 The son of the Israelite woman blasphemed the Name and cursed. So they brought him to Moses. (Now his mother’s name was Shelomith, the daughter of Dibri, of the tribe of Dan.) 12 They put him in custody so that the command of the LORD might be made clear to them. 13 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 14 “Bring the one who has cursed outside the camp, and let all who heard him lay their hands on his head; then let all the congregation stone him. 15 “You shall speak to the sons of Israel, saying, ‘If anyone curses his God, then he will bear his sin. 16 ‘Moreover, the one who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall certainly stone him. The alien as well as the native, when he blasphemes the Name, shall be put to death."

Of course this is the OT, so a Christian could argue that stoning to death wouldn't be an appropriate punishment after the NT, but the context is still there: "Blaspheme" does not mean"living selfishly and immorally". If it did, the son couldn't have suddenly blasphemed in the middle of the camp.

The link to the Catholic Encyclopedia I gave you earlier, also provided another context: when St. Paul states that he was blasphemed.

Okay, well now we agree that doing X is bad, and that it will doom you, what is X?

I can't really think how to reply to this really. If you do X and get condemned, then you do X and get condemened. I don't have a problem with that. Seems rational to me.

That's another point. You asked for a source that showed one could live a good life and still be condemned. The fact that I can live a good life, do X and be condemned is proven in that Bible verse, regardless of how we define X.

Remember what you're replying too...

That being said, I've already shown how X is defined. X is Blasphemy against the Spirit. I then provided a definition of Blasphemy.

is that if one persists in conciously in Sin, and they continue to deny the Spirit, then , yes they are condemning themselves. The way I envision it is that once dead, or whatever, we can ask for forgiveness, or we can be aware of our lives and what we have done wrong, however if we know what we have done wrong, knowing it is wrong, and yet not feel regret, then we are blaspheming the Holy Spirit by refusing forgiveness.Yet nowhere in the Bible does it state that! That is you trying to rationalize the Biblical passage because you don't like the conclusion. You even agreed that Hex's post was in the right track, and his post supports my interpretation!

See the post I made right before this, I included further Biblical context of what constitutes "blaspheme". It is not "living selfishly and/or immorally", one can live immorally and selfishly and be forgiven. The thief Jesus forgives while he is being crucified, did he magically not know that stealing was wrong (in order to not "persists consciously in Sin")? He knew it was a sin, and did it anyway; he arguably "persisted consciously in Sin". He was still forgiven. Why? Because "persisting consciously in Sin" is still forgivable.

What? The being that CREATED YOU has a law, "Deny all else and be forgiven, but deny Forgiveness and be in danger of damnation," and that seems like some massive deal, some massive injustice, or act of non-lovingness, Rust?

Oh NO! God wants to love and forgive us, but if we don't accept the forgiveness we have to...live without it? This is MAJORLY ILLOGICAL!!!!

What PRIDE is necessary to fail reconciliation just because you don't get the benefits of reconciliation if you DON'T RECONCILE?

What? The being that CREATED YOU has a law, "Deny all else and be forgiven, but deny Forgiveness and be in danger of damnation," and that seems like some massive deal, some massive injustice, or act of non-lovingness, Rust?

Oh NO! God wants to love and forgive us, but if we don't accept the forgiveness we have to...live without it? This is MAJORLY ILLOGICAL!!!!

What PRIDE is necessary to fail reconciliation just because you don't get the benefits of reconciliation if you DON'T RECONCILE?

Forgive us for what, though? For being human, like he allegedly made us? I'd like to know exactly what it was I was apologizing for and begging for forgiveness over.

No offense to you personally, but fuck all that guilt, Hex. I'm all about some well-placed humility, but if God wants to get through to me, he'll do it without all the mudslinging regarding my being "born" into sin.

What? The being that CREATED YOU has a law, "Deny all else and be forgiven, but deny Forgiveness and be in danger of damnation," and that seems like some massive deal, some massive injustice, or act of non-lovingness, Rust?

Oh NO! God wants to love and forgive us, but if we don't accept the forgiveness we have to...live without it? This is MAJORLY ILLOGICAL!!!!

What PRIDE is necessary to fail reconciliation just because you don't get the benefits of reconciliation if you DON'T RECONCILE?

Did I say it was illogical? No. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said it was coercion, which it is. Whether he supposedly created me or not doesn't change this fact.

A man can put a gun to my head and then demand that I sing "happy birthday" or he kills me. That is neither illogical, nor a tremendously difficult request. It, however, is both unnecessary and coercive.

An omnipotent god has absolutely no need for me to ask for forgiveness, not only because he's fucking omnipotent, but because I've done nothing wrong at all. I was just born; and since then, I'm being coerced to worship him or suffer damnation.

I think the main point is:

There is no forgiveness for a person who commits blashpemy of the holy spirit.

The more a person learns of christianity the more infantile it becomes.

I think the main point is:

There is no forgiveness for a person who commits blashpemy of the holy spirit.

The more a person learns of christianity the more infantile it becomes.

If so that be.. wouldn't it be wise for one to find out how you commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and why Adonai places such a high importance upon the Holy Spirit?

Let's journey through the scriptures, look at context, consider them, and then find out the answers to these basic questions.

**Note: That John 3:16 states Christ for the World. The books of Acts shows how the Holy Ghost was the PROMISE of God's people. Christ is God's gift to the world. Salvation. The Holy Spirit is God's gift to the Church.**

Matthew 12:22-33
22Then they brought him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute, and Jesus healed him, so that he could both talk and see.
23All the people were astonished and said, "Could this be the Son of David?"
24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, "It is only by Beelzebub, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons."
25Jesus knew their thoughts and said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself will be ruined, and every city or household divided against itself will not stand.
26If Satan drives out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then can his kingdom stand?
27And if I drive out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your people drive them out? So then, they will be your judges.
28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
29"Or again, how can anyone enter a strong man's house and carry off his possessions unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can rob his house.
30"He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters.
31And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
32Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
33"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.

What happened here? They brought a sick man to Him that was possessed by a demon, He cast it out. All the people were astonished at this, but the religious people (pharisees) said, He's driving out satan by the power of satan. Well, He didn't! He made a vaild point, and then went on to say, I cast out demons by the POWER OF GOD, which is the HOLY SPIRIT.. the kingdom has come unto you..Then He said.. AND SO I SAY THIS.. (to make this statement) You can talk bad about me, and not accept me and It will be forgiven of you, but if you speak of the POWER of God or the Holy Spirit, God's power, as SATAN'S WORK.. It will not be forgiven, ever. Why? God considers the Holy Spirit as precious, and we should too. For unbelievers.. if you seen a man possessed by a demon, you'd say he needs to be admitted into a hospital, because he needs help.. But say a Spirit-filled believer walks up and casts the demon out in the name of Jesus, BY the POWER or Spirit of God, what would you say? Think about it. The Spirit was given to Christ without measure, but christians have been given a measure. God also refers to the Holy Spirit as the anointing. "When the Spirit came upon Him" "Place the anointing upon the one I point out to you." (Making reference to Samson and David.) Esau took the anointing lightly, and it was given to one who wouldn't, Jacob. Saul did the same, it was given to David. The Power of God is precious, and it's amazing how God places that power in His people.

Perhaps you think "WHy would a Christian call the Power of God of the devil?" They already do. Apparently they don't read their bibles enough to get a clear concept of the Character of God, and know the difference between God and Satan. John 10:10
God said I came to GIVE LIFE. Tell me, why is it that it's God's will is we live and religious people will pray a prayer that goes like this, "If it be the Lord's will he will live." Come ON! He said it's His will. What you really just said is I don't know the difference between God and Satan but I want to sound holy, and not make a mistake because I don't have the faith to believe that God will raise this person from the dead or sickness, because I believe that the power of God died at pentecost, and ended with the last apostle."

And for those.. Tell me this.. why in the world did Peter FULL OF THE HOLY SPIRIT say this..
Acts 2:33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.
Acts 2:39The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."

**For those that don't know. A Pharisee was a very devout law abiding bible thumper, who knew the torah front to back and probably a whole lot more. They practiced the religious rituals and did everything the law required, and claimed to be the BEST and KNOWING GOD, but when God was in front of them, in demonstration of His power, they didn't know Him at all, and crucified Him. Interesting how laymen could point out the power of God, and these up scale Pharisees couldn't even recognize God. It's like they claimed to BE the Lord's Army, but fought against Him. HIGH TREASON!! No wonder why God kept telling them, HYPOCRITE! He was telling them, you say you know, you talk like you know but your works say you don't know and the truth be told you don't know because if you did you would realize I AM." Examine yourselves. You have to be honest with yourself before you can change. So often we think we're fooling people, we're just fooling ourselves.

**For those that don't know. A Pharisee was a very devout law abiding bible thumper, who knew the torah front to back and probably a whole lot more. They practiced the religious rituals and did everything the law required, and claimed to be the BEST and KNOWING GOD, but when God was in front of them, in demonstration of His power, they didn't know Him at all, and crucified Him. Interesting how laymen could point out the power of God, and these up scale Pharisees couldn't even recognize God. It's like they claimed to BE the Lord's Army, but fought against Him. HIGH TREASON!! No wonder why God kept telling them, HYPOCRITE! He was telling them, you say you know, you talk like you know but your works say you don't know and the truth be told you don't know because if you did you would realize I AM." Examine yourselves. You have to be honest with yourself before you can change. So often we think we're fooling people, we're just fooling ourselves.

For those who don't know thats ^^^^ exactly wrong. This what happens when you simply believe what Pastor John-Jo-Billy-Bo tells you.

What part did she get wrong, jack? The part where the Pharisees were law-abiding, bible-thumping devotees of God or the part where they were the ones who crucified him?

:confused:

I'm a big fat haughty atheist

5char

Did I say it was illogical? No. Stop putting words in my mouth. I said it was coercion, which it is. Whether he supposedly created me or not doesn't change this fact.

A man can put a gun to my head and then demand that I sing "happy birthday" or he kills me. That is neither illogical, nor a tremendously difficult request. It, however, is both unnecessary and coercive.

An omnipotent god has absolutely no need for me to ask for forgiveness, not only because he's fucking omnipotent, but because I've done nothing wrong at all. I was just born; and since then, I'm being coerced to worship him or suffer damnation.

You've done nothing wrong?
You've never lied? Stolen? Held wrath? Lust? You've never put off responsibilities? You've never cursed someone? You've never put your own needs above others? You're perfect? There is nothing in your past that has weighed your conscience? There is nothing in your past left undone? There is no doubt of where your future lays? You have perfect faith in God?

Holy shit guys! It's the second coming! HOSANA TO HE ON MOST HIGH! :rolleyes:

Forgive us for what, though? For being human, like he allegedly made us? I'd like to know exactly what it was I was apologizing for and begging for forgiveness over.

No offense to you personally, but fuck all that guilt, Hex. I'm all about some well-placed humility, but if God wants to get through to me, he'll do it without all the mudslinging regarding my being "born" into sin.

For idolizing yourself. You play god. You're the caregiver, the one who loves, the one who cares...the reality is, you're just nourishing your ego and failing to recognize that the very ability to care about anything is a tremendous blessing from God. This has already been forgiven, as have all future straying into self-servitude...but you cannot reap the benefits of Forgiveness without accepting it. The guilt experienced is not something God places upon our conscience...guilt is actually one of the tools we humans use to justify our keeping away from God. It makes us feel dirty and unworthy of being with God. I went to God full of my own shit, but felt no shame nor guilt for it (desperation, yes...far too much of which for shame or guilt to squeeze in).

The simple truth of the matter is, you will not ask Forgiveness until you admit you need it. You won't admit you need it until your pride is destroyed. And your pride will not be destroyed until you see your failures as they are.

How can you think you don't need God's help? Is there nothing in this world you want to do but cannot, but see others do with tremendous ease? What do you think it is that enables others to so freely do that which you find impossible? You can call it delusion if you want...but faith is the enabler of all things worthwhile. And whether you yourself see it, those things you are capable of doing, you can only do because you have faith in certain aspects of it: God is unchanging, he is always there, always solid, always loving and caring - it is faith in the constant, which is God, that allows us to carry through in life.

The sickest thing to me, about atheism, is that most atheists have tremendous faith in a few qualities of God that enable them to live partial lives - Logic, Reason, Law, Order, Love, Compassion, ect...but they fail to recognize that there is a source component of these things that is present in all situations. Femme, when you come across something in life that neither you nor anyone around you knows how to handle, that is when you either kill yourself or find God. I was lucky enough to find God's hand ready to guide me through.

...The sickest thing to me, about atheism, is that most atheists have tremendous faith in a few qualities of God that enable them to live partial lives - Logic, Reason, Law, Order, Love, Compassion, ect...but they fail to recognize that there is a source component of these things that is present in all situations. Femme, when you come across something in life that neither you nor anyone around you knows how to handle, that is when you either kill yourself or find God. I was lucky enough to find God's hand ready to guide me through.

The whole of your argument is built on a foundation of wind. Everything you posted is nothing but baseless assertion, unless you can provide compelling evidence (not conjecture) that such a God exists.

Holy shit guys! It's the second coming! HOSANA TO HE ON MOST HIGH! :rolleyes:

I've done nothing worthy of eternal damnation, that's for sure. Unless of course your merciful god thinks "cursing" is worthy of an infinite amount of torture... :rolleyes:


Even if your god is that petty, you have no point. If the coercion had started after I did something wrong, then maybe, just maybe, you'd have a point. Since it doesn't - since it starts the moment I'm born, when I am a defenseless infant- you have only succeeded in failing yet again.

Hilarious as always. Keep trying.

Hex, I don't quite know what to say to all that. I am both disheartened and a bit sickened to see that there is an unpenetrable spell cast on your mind that has changed you to the core. I'm sure you won't argue that point, and be quick to tell us all that it's the source of God's love in your heart that has changed you for the better, but as a third party observing from the sidelines, I'm here to tell you that it's changed you in a way that makes you unrecognizeable to at least one anonymous peer. Heck, I can't even call myself your peer anymore, because it seems as though you've taken what was clearly a hopeless event in your life and used it to exalt yourself far, far above us immoral, selfish atheists. Your words drip with such disdain and your text is riddled with such a Holier-Than-Thou attitude, I can't even believe the text is attached to the same screen moniker I used to enjoy reading and bantering with on here for more than a couple of years.

In the post above this, you point out all the potential flaws in Rust's character and mock him for not feeling as dirty, sinful and repentent as you believe he should feel. Has your sudden-onset relationship with God somehow given you the inside scoop to Rust's pre-determined spiritual path and a glimpse into how he will be judged for it? Does your newfound glory you celebrate in God require that you make it your mission to observe others outside the circle of faith and make fun of the reasons they have for not feeling all the shame, guilt and humility that it took you to somehow get over your personal crisis? Did you somehow manage to skim over the part that advises to "judge not, lest ye be judged"?

You accuse me of being a self-idolator, then posit that the source of my self-idolation is because I am a caring, compassionate person. I suppose the caring, compassionate people out there just don't count as bonafide doers-of-good or promoters of love unless they've got the God trademark out in full view, does it? Else the unthinkable might happen and someone besides God gets credit for it. You preach to me about how my guilt is what keeps me within arms-reach of finding God, after I've already stated that I no longer feel the guilt and self-loathing required to make one submit to a dangerous, all-encompassing meme complex that will turn me into someone like you, someone who admits that they are utterly and completely incapable of managing their life properly without some sort of spiritual guidance. Well I'm here to tell you, Hex - I've lived more of my life steeped in religion than out of religion, and I know for a fact that the more humble, non-self-serving side of me didn't surface until I freed myself from the shackles of a religion that draws a huge line separating me/those who are damned. It's given me the capacity to feel empathy and genuine interest in people who aren't like me, has kept me from relying on finger-pointing other's flaws in order to feel better about myself.

O, if only you could have come back to this forum after your life-changing epiphany and spoken of the positive results, exhibiting some new level of understanding, loving and having compassion and respect for others beyond yourself ... but you didn't. You came back a changed man, for sure - but all I've seen is you preaching to others about how you would have certainly been dead without God intervening, and taking every opportunity you can to point out the flaws in others, using them as examples to point out the huge, HUGE separation you're now committed to see in all human beings who don't have faith in the same source you do. Even if I were seeking a spiritual path and came here to this forum to find it through the advice of my peers, observing the character change in people like you and HellzShellz would scare me off from seeking it any further.

The simple truth of the matter is, you will not ask Forgiveness until you admit you need it. You won't admit you need it until your pride is destroyed. And your pride will not be destroyed until you see your failures as they are.

Here we are again, zooming in on the failures of others, grandstanding their crime without ever really pointing out exactly what their crime is (other than being born), and labeling their self-reliance and strong moral character as the ill-fated sin of "Pride". Hex, you might have experienced a moment in your life where you felt so utterly worthless, yet full of yourself that you had to destroy anything resembling self-love or any shred of self-reliance that might have been left in you, call it "seeking forgiveness" and then act as if that's what everyone else's problem is ... they just haven't admitted their shortcomings and asked for a pardon yet. And you'd be quick, I'm sure, to tell anyone who stated that they didn't feel the need to ask for forgiveness that they're just lost, or blind, or avoiding the right path on purpose, because their Pride is a huge roadblock in their success. What you're essentially saying is that it's wrong, sinful, prideful for a human being to be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps when they're feeling down, not at their very best - and use self-reliance and find the strength inside themselves to keep from just wanting to (your words, again) "kill themselves".

I feel bad for you, because it's easy to read between the lines without getting the entire firsthand account from you to know that you clearly experienced a really tough time personally, and was somehow unable to find any meaning in your life that would help you to keep on keeping on. I've had periods of my life where it felt as starkly dismal and worthless as that, and I can assure you that I've contemplated on more than one occasion the "value" placed on my existence in this world. I can also assure you that the methods I used to deal with these horrible feelings is something that cannot be sourced out by an invisible deity, where the quick-fix is complete submission and the long road requires being bound to that crutch, never forgetting what a grotesque, sinful creature I once was without the direction from God. My method required a great deal of self-confidence, the self-confidence it takes to look in the mirror and realize that my full potential may not be easily recognizeable right now, right that second as I was feeling the weight of the world on my shoulders, but that just being alive and being the best person I could be really wasn't that difficult of a task. The faith in God I carried around for so many years had prohibited that self-confidence, had constantly reminded me that I was NOTHING without the holy spirit and that my time here was borrowed from a particular source that never ceased to point out "I made you, so I can break you, too".

The sickest thing to me, about atheism, is that most atheists have tremendous faith in a few qualities of God that enable them to live partial lives - Logic, Reason, Law, Order, Love, Compassion, ect...but they fail to recognize that there is a source component of these things that is present in all situations. Femme, when you come across something in life that neither you nor anyone around you knows how to handle, that is when you either kill yourself or find God. I was lucky enough to find God's hand ready to guide me through.

I've got news for you, Hex: The faith I have in logic, reason, law, order, love and compassion are available to me without a working model of God to make it clearly abundant to me. You just can't argue that point without dishonestly asserting that you have somehow found a way to experience the qualia I do, and until you've walked a mile in my shoes, I honestly don't think that you can comment on what it's like to be me, or tear down my methods of understanding when I testify to you that they work, on a personal level. I'll leave you with this - when I come across something in life that neither me or anyone around me knows how to handle, you can bet your sweet ass that I'm not going to cop out and kill myself. I'm also not going to seek God, for that is a crutch I do not plan on leaning on. I'll tell you exactly what I'll do when that time comes - I'll pull myself out of the ring of frustration and admit to the entire world that there are just some things I am incapable of. I'll do this with all the humility I can muster up, and without any of the shame or guilt someone in your position would have to succumb to in order to come to terms with the fact that suffering and mystery just IS ... it's simply a side-effect of being human. And you know what? I'll be perfectly okay with that.

Femme, the only thing that's wrong with 'pulling yourself up by the bootstraps' and not giving God the credit, is that God has given you every single one of the resources you've ever used to improve a situation.

I admit it was my complete desperation to escape my own devices that led me to God...but I would never have sought escape from my devices had they been successful for me, that is the nature of pride...I truly had to fail completely as a human being to start searching for God.

It's awesome that you use the gifts God has given you better than I have, but it is, to me, disheartening that instead of Gratitude for those blessings, you take credit for the mere utilization of them; which is another thing that is completely impossible without God: You wouldn't exist unless God had created you, you would not have mental faculties without the Hand, you would not have reason or logic without the Hand, you would not have compassion or motivation without the Hand.

I do understand the extreme difficulty in believing a god to exist...it didn't become easy for me until believing myself to be capable became more of a delusion to me than having to rely upon a being I couldn't even see, and further, saw no evidence of existing.

You can take my mentioning of the pride within others as judging them, but I say this with assurance: I can recognize pride in others because I recognize it within myself. You are able to see things in others only if you can see it within yourself. It is my genuine hope that others can find the Blessing that I have. I'm about as holy as Charles Manson...that's why I NEED God. You can see it as Holier-Than-Thou if you want to, but it's the experience of being a complete piece of shit without the intervention of Spirit that allows me to ask the Spirit to do for me what I cannot do for myself.

It is because of my disgusting flaws that I walked through hell and after finding no way out through any human means that I asked God to lift me out. Grace, Mercy, Forgiveness and Salvation entered my life at that exact moment. This doesn't make me special. I'm the same piece of shit I've always been...but I don't have to live the way I used to anymore. God continually provides me with opportunities to handle the same situations I've already been through with different decisions - decisions that I cannot see unless I pray to God specifically for the ability to see that which cannot be seen. Decisions that I cannot follow through unless I pray specifically for the ability to do that which cannot be done.

I am a slave to my narcissism unless I pray for God's help - and not once since I have begun praying has he failed to show me and encourage me, either by Presence, Vision, Voice, or Children, exactly what needs to be done in order to not succumb to my own desires.

You employ the gifts of God much better than I have - but please, recognize where they truly come from. God made you Perfect, and by the conversations I've had with you in the past, you've remained relatively unstained (especially in comparison to me)...but everyone picks up some dirt along the way. I was covered in mud and blood...you probably have some dirt around your ankles.

You ARE relatively clean compared to me, but at the Club we're heading to, the dress code is Pure White. When your ego sheds and your soul sees Truth and accepts Forgiveness, you'll be as welcome there as I. However, it is a genuine hope of mine that you find the Love of loves BEFORE death.

Best wishes in Life.
-Hex

PS: I am mentally, emotionally, and spiritually crippled. God IS my crutch...I am utterly incapable of walking without Him.

Tell me truckfixr...if you heard a Voice (a Whisper, actually) that was loud enough to crumble mountains, what do you think would have spoke so softly yet with such Presence and Power? I'm just grateful my soul is much more sturdy than a mountain...being smitten doesn't sound too enjoyable. ;)

You'll think me to be delusional because you doubt, and I'm okay with that. Having Faith works for me. Having doubt puts me in jails and institutions, and would likely lead me to the morgue if I avoided the authorities long enough. And yes, I'm that shitty of a human being that relying upon human resources means the inability to handle free living.

You can call it conjecture, I call it experience.

Sometimes I wish I could be distant, passive, unattached and unaffected by anonymous people whose paths will likely never cross mine in the real world. But your last missive nearly moved me to tears, Hex. Seriously. Don't let my "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" testimony fool you into thinking that I'm impervious to feeling, failure or the heavy cloak of self-doubt that we're all privy to at some point in our lives.

Not fully knowing the circumstances surrounding your last bout of misery, I can tell from your testimony that it was probably one of the lower moments of your life, and that you truly believe that you wouldn't have crawled out of that hole without some kind of outside assistance. I suppose that from one human being to another, the method you used to escape your predicament isn't really important now, just so long as you managed to get out. If the life you were leading was bound to land you in jail, an institution, or worse - dead in the ground pushing up daisies - and now you've managed to venture off the path to self-destruction, then I should applaud whatever life-changing event that made you open your eyes and realize that you owed it to yourself and to your loved ones to do better.

I won't continue to bust your balls about joining what I consider to be a dangerous cult that is half milk & honey and half toxic mind-poison, because it's not really my place NOR my desire to change your mind or alter your lifestyle. The only time you'll see me commenting on it will be when you're educating others on the benefits you see in it, and I offer up my own alternative perspective on how to reap those benefits without submitting to an entity that requires of people the complete submission of their mental faculties in order to "get with the program". Don't take that as hostility or mean-spirited arguing - I just am as grateful for finding my methods of "handling it" as you are, and I want to share that with others who could possibly benefit from it like I did. I'm sure that's also your intention, although your dogma does require that you lay witness to others as a maneuver that ensures as many people get brought into the religious fold as possible.

While I'd rather be sitting here swapping text with a Holy Hexadecimal than having to speak of you in the past tense, recalling your memory on here because you're dead, or incarcerated, or no longer with us because you've sunk into the bowels of crime or addiction, teetering on the brink of self-destruction ... I wouldn't be a friend or a decent human being if I didn't at least clue you in to what I feel is very, very obvious and goes without saying, though is sometimes hard to realize without hearing someone else shout it over a bullhorn:

You are NOT a piece of shit. You are NOT a victim of your own devices, being led around by a chain by some intricate evil force that you have no control over, you are NOT comparable to Charles Manson, you are NOT overcome with disgusting personality flaws that make you a bad person, you are NOT stained with a foolish, illogical decision-making process that prohibits you from recognizing that you aren't the best person you know full well that you can be.

You're an fallible, imperfect human being. We all are. The mere fact that you reached a point in your life where you were able to recognize that you were unhappy with how you were presenting yourself to the world is proof positive that you have within you the capacity to learn from your past mistakes and make positive lifestyle changes that are tantamount to putting you where you feel you need to be. Maybe it seems as though you couldn't have done that by yourself, but I assure you - You already have! Maybe you feel right now that something is broken inside you, and the crutch you choose to lean on will help get you back on your feet and out of the gutter of despair. Maybe a bit of self-loathing, mental anguish and the *throwing up of hands* in order to completely submit to God's invisible support is what it took to pull you out of immediate danger.

I just hope that eventually, you will be able to give yourself not only the credit that's much deserved for being able to force a change in your life, but the self-esteem and self-confidence needed to keep that positive change consistent, steady and at your immediate disposal, should you ever be faced with trying times in the future. For even with God in your life, you're going to find that the propensity to do Good over Evil is a choice that's going to be thrust in your face no matter what kind of doctrine (or non-doctrine) that you subscribe to. I hope your ultimate goal turns out to be proving to yourself that you have it within you to make these choices because you love yourself, you love humanity, and you love the experience of being alive and well, an important (and at the same time, insignificant) part of this Universe. It seems to me that the ultimate display of compassion is not measured in what we exhibit to others, but how much we can dole it out on ourselves. For how can we love others if we can't love ourselves first?

While you can honestly admit to yourself that you're an imperfect, fallible being pockmarked with emotional and mental scars from having failed in the past - it is NOT necessary to keep reminding yourself and others of your downfalls. You've already accepted all this, now it's time to hone in on the more precious and life-affirming traits you have within you in order to maintain the level of control you have in your life that will steer you this way or that.

It's apparent that I don't believe the invisible Hand of God should be given credit for these discoveries you made, but if that's what you require in order to keep from slipping back into self-destruction mode, then by all means, friend - run with whatever works for you. I just sincerely hope that the debt you feel you have to repay to this invisible entity that has shaped your life for the better doesn't completely consume you to the point where you consider your own judgments to be worthless, incorrect or completely secondary to the will of your deity. I hope you never fail to recognize that YOU and YOU ALONE hold the key to affecting real change in your life. Right now it might seem as though your incapable of going it alone, but I assure you - there is much humility, passion and sincerity to be found in doing good for goodness' sake, versus doing good to appease a certain God who seems to promise everlasting paradise if only you'll admit what a helpless creature you are without his intervention.

I wish you the best, also.
<3

"I won't continue to bust your balls about joining what I consider to be a dangerous cult that is half milk & honey and half toxic mind-poison"

Hehe...I didn't join a religion. I still maintain the idea that organized religion is about the most disgusting social institution in existence. Even JC said 'Pray not in public as the heathens do, but behind closed doors.' My primary associations are of a multitude of varied faiths, the only common bond between us being the recognition in our lives that God Is Good.

As odd as this might be for those who haven't traveled one of the many paths to their near final destination, my situation is hardly unique. I've met thousands of individuals within the city I live who have been down and out nearly as far or even further than I was. All of us have recovered and been able to return to life without the distrust of our own actions. The only common factor in the recovery of every single one of us is thus: Faith.

AngryFemme, I already recognize that I did in fact do the things I did, and AM responsible for them...which is the exact reason that I have faith in God: I was entirely incapable of doing the very things I did. It wasn't until I began to ask and listen (pray and meditate) for Help that I was able to do the things that for so long escaped my grasps. God gave me Love...so much that I could no longer hate what I was. Love was Forgiving, Merciful, Graceful, Compassionate, and Powerful. So long as I continue to ask for Love, I am able to love God, mankind, and myself; I am able to forgive myself and others, I am able to show mercy and grace, I am able to empathize again, and I am able to put the gifts of God to use again.

I have one of those feelings like the thread has reached its end. If not, cool. If so, I'll see ya in another. ;)