http://www.seesharppress.com/20reasons.html


Christianity is based on fear
Christianity preys on the innocent
Christianity is based on dishonesty
Christianity is extremely egocentric
Christianity breeds arrogance, a chosen-people mentality
Christianity breeds authoritarianism
Christianity is cruel
Christianity is anti-intellectual, anti-scientific
Christianity has a morbid, unhealthy preoccupation with sex
Christianity produces sexual misery
Christianity has an exceedingly narrow, legalistic view of morality
Christianity encourages acceptance of real evils while focusing on imaginary evils
Christianity depreciates the natural world
Christianity models hierarchical, authoritarian organization
Christianity sanctions slavery
Christianity is misogynistic
Christianity is homophobic
The Bible is not a reliable guide to Christ's teachings
The Bible is riddled with contradictions
Christianity borrowed its central myths and ceremonies from other ancient religions

The Bible is not a reliable guide to Christ's teachings


Oh, well then what other historical text is an accurate account of Christ's teachings? Oh, wait there are none!

indeed there are none, Mark, the oldest of the Gospels, was written at least 30 years after Christ’s death, and the newest of them might have been written more than 200 years after his death. These texts have been amended, translated, and re-translated so often that it’s extremely difficult to gauge the accuracy of current editions—even aside from the matter of the accuracy of texts written decades or centuries after the death of their subject. This is such a problem that the Jesus Seminar, a colloquium of over 200 Protestant Gospel scholars mostly employed at religious colleges and seminaries, undertook in 1985 a multi-year investigation into the historicity of the statements and deeds attributed to Jesus in the New Testament. They concluded that only 18% of the statements and 16% of the deeds attributed to Jesus had a high likelihood of being historically accurate. So, in a very real sense fundamentalists—who claim to believe in the literal truth of the Bible—are not followers of Jesus Christ; rather, they are followers of those who, decades or centuries later, put words in his mouth.

indeed there are none, Mark, the oldest of the Gospels, was written at least 30 years after Christ’s death, and the newest of them might have been written more than 200 years after his death. These texts have been amended, translated, and re-translated so often that it’s extremely difficult to gauge the accuracy of current editions—even aside from the matter of the accuracy of texts written decades or centuries after the death of their subject. This is such a problem that the Jesus Seminar, a colloquium of over 200 Protestant Gospel scholars mostly employed at religious colleges and seminaries, undertook in 1985 a multi-year investigation into the historicity of the statements and deeds attributed to Jesus in the New Testament. They concluded that only 18% of the statements and 16% of the deeds attributed to Jesus had a high likelihood of being historically accurate. So, in a very real sense fundamentalists—who claim to believe in the literal truth of the Bible—are not followers of Jesus Christ; rather, they are followers of those who, decades or centuries later, put words in his mouth.

This of course assuming Jesus actually ever existed at all. I keep saying this I know but there is NO primary evidence (and don't forget I believe he did).

Why should I pay attention to this when you're obviously biased?
Christianity has good points and bad points and here is a quick outline.

Good: Teachings of christ
Bad: Teachings of christians

Why should I pay attention to this when you're obviously biased?
Christianity has good points and bad points and here is a quick outline.

Good: Teachings of christ
Bad: Teachings of christians

Oooh, I see what you did there.

Yeah, only problem is your "20 reasons" are mostly opinion and can't be proven so they aren't reasons at all because there's nothing reasonable about an opinion

Yeah, only problem is your "20 reasons" are mostly opinion and can't be proven so they aren't reasons at all because there's nothing reasonable about an opinion

"Christianity is based on fear "

If you do not accept jesus christ as your personal lord and savior, you will go to hell. Hell is scary.

I think that's basically the definition of coercion using fear.

"Christianity is based on fear "


No, it's "based" on the teachings of Jesus.
The use of fear came years later.

"Christianity is based on fear "

If you do not accept jesus christ as your personal lord and savior, you will go to hell. Hell is scary.

I think that's basically the definition of coercion using fear.

Especially when you consider that Hell is being locked in room with an unopenable bottle of whiskey, an unfuckable woman and a Win ME computer with the CRT+ALT+DEL keys missing, for all Eternity.

Especially when you consider that Hell is being locked in room with an unopenable bottle of whiskey, an unfuckable woman and a Win ME computer with the CRT+ALT+DEL keys missing, for all Eternity.

Oh No!

Oh No!

Oh yes...for it shall be torment without relief.

Christianity pisses me off. I can't believe people buy into that bullshit.

I guess it helps them just wander through life.

Fear of the Christian hell is rediculous. If I believe it exists, then I believe in Jesus and God and whatnot so I won't end up there, hence I would have no reason to fear it. If I don't believe it exists, then I have no reason to fear it, since it doesn't make sense to fear something that isn't real.

Your argument supposes feelings like fear and anxiety have “rational” guidelines. I certainly don’t fear hell, but I have seen horror movies that have scared me or made me anxious, even though I knew they were written by some guy in Canada who wears thick-lensed glasses. So as you can see, whether or not you believe something to be real doesn’t necessarily affect the fear it instils in you.

Why should I pay attention to this when you're obviously biased?
Christianity has good points and bad points and here is a quick outline.

Good: Teachings of christ
Bad: Teachings of christians

Mark 7:10>> For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:

Your argument supposes feelings like fear and anxiety have “rational” guidelines. I certainly don’t fear hell, but I have seen horror movies that have scared me or made me anxious, even though I knew they were written by some guy in Canada who wears thick-lensed glasses. So as you can see, whether or not you believe something to be real doesn’t necessarily affect the fear it instils in you.

hmm...good point.

"Christianity is based on fear "

If you do not accept jesus christ as your personal lord and savior, you will go to hell. Hell is scary.

I think that's basically the definition of coercion using fear.

Read the book...(This is in red, by the way...meaning it came from Jesus' mouth itself...) "Those who say blasphemies against my name shall be forgiven, but those who blaspheme the Spirit shall find no forgiveness."

Essentially, you can call Jesus a cock-sucking whore and be forgiven...it's the denial of the Spirit that is unforgivable. And if you really think there's nothing to this world but the physical, (good laugh at that...ya know, being as things like trust, love, compassion, reason, logic, forgiveness, fear, sorrow, pain, loneliness, anxiety, happiness and so on all exist in a very much non-physical form) well shit...that's hell in and of itself. Have fun pursuing material goods to the end of existence...as for me, I think I'll keep my continuous satisfaction with a spiritual life rather than temporary gratifications in a physical life.

Chemical fixes through food, exercise, sex, drugs, entertainment, and so on work for awhile...but at some point, the hole in your soul can't be ignored anymore. For those who worship the material...why is it that you are so fucking miserable when you sit still...hungry, tired, horny, sober, and focused.

The Spirit can feed your soul...something nothing else in this world can do.

By the way, I know EVERY SINGLE ONE of you atheists and agnostics comes to this forum in the hope of finding something worth living for...even if you don't realize it yet. If you didn't have some hope left that there is a Spirit worth trusting, you'd have killed yourselves long ago.

Stop looking, stop running; It will come to you.

Peace, and good luck.

Essentially, you can call Jesus a cock-sucking whore and be forgiven...it's the denial of the Spirit that is unforgivable.

Hence, if you must not deny the 'Holy Spirit' or else you'll be condemend. That's coercion. That makes his point perfectly.

P.S.

http://www.wii60.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/yawn.jpg

Fear of the Christian hell is rediculous. If I believe it exists, then I believe in Jesus and God and whatnot so I won't end up there, hence I would have no reason to fear it. If I don't believe it exists, then I have no reason to fear it, since it doesn't make sense to fear something that isn't real.

Is there a single fear in the world that isn't ridiculous?

If something can be controlled, there is no reason to fear it; if it cannot be controlled, there is no reason not to accept it; fear and acceptance contradict the existence of the other.

The only thing that we humans truly fear is the Spirit; all others stem from our inability to trust the Spirit.

All phobias exist because we trust ourselves or others (both of whom make grave mistakes every day) rather than the Spirit (which has yet to accidentally do anything).

If you're expecting an explanation of how the Spirit is perfect I can't help you there. If you want evidence of it: Develop a severe addiction to any chemical fix (even over-eating or anorexia will do). So long as this chemical fix has become your primary coping skill, it will work. Then try to stop. Keep trying until you're desperate enough to ask something you don't even think exists for help...and be amazed.

Sure, most people are too proud to ever ask...but if you happen to be able to humble yourself, life changes, and it changes tremendously. To the point that the old way of life doesn't even seem like life anymore...chemical fixes are boring in comparison to genuine altruistic relationships between spirit to Spirit, and spirit to spirit.

Hence, if you must not deny the 'Holy Spirit' or else you'll be condemend. That's coercion. That makes his point perfectly.

P.S.

http://www.wii60.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/yawn.jpg

Rust, you can try to prove me wrong as much as you want; but you're just as flawed as me. Have fun acting superior.

Also, condemnation is the base matter of fact for humans, our desires tempt us and when we enact our desires we sin; this is our imperfection and blocks us from the Spirit. Blasphemy of the Spirit is the denial of Forgiveness. It is the one and only way to bring the Spirit's most feared persona: Wrath.

Still Rust, I've asked anyone and everyone to try and imagine the existence of a universe that doesn't defy ALL logic. Please Rust, explain how anything is based even partially in non-spirituality and I'll convert back to atheism.

There is nothing in this entire world that doesn't rest on the simple truth that God Is God. Every personality disorder on this planet stems from the failure to recognize that truth. Keep playing your own god...but just so you know, narcissism isn't very attractive.

Rust, you can try to prove me wrong as much as you want; but you're just as flawed as me. Have fun acting superior.

Please don't confuse me pointing out your immense stupidity with me 'acting superior'. I could easily just be a moron that recognizes another moron, could I not?

I never say anything of my status, superiority or inferiority; that's not my place.


Also, condemnation is the base matter of fact for humans, our desires tempt us and when we enact our desires we sin; this is our imperfection and blocks us from the Spirit. Blasphemy of the Spirit is the denial of Forgiveness. It is the one and only way to bring the Spirit's most feared persona: Wrath.Which changes absolutely nothing of what I said: The biblical passage you quoted proved his point entirely. We are coerced to not deny the Holy Spirit or face condemnation.


There is nothing in this entire world that doesn't rest on the simple truth that God Is God. Every personality disorder on this planet stems from the failure to recognize that truth. Keep playing your own god...but just so you know, narcissism isn't very attractive.Is putting words in my mouth and taking things straight out of your ass, attractive? Because you see no problem doing either of those...

You can rant all you want, like you always do, in the end, you've proven nothing; bullshit never does.

I'll await for you to stop posting for a while, then come back with a new and improved pile of crap. "The universe is a big brain"... remember that? Classic Hexadecimal!

----

...chemical fixes are boring in comparison to genuine altruistic relationships between spirit to Spirit, and spirit to spirit.

You say that as if those delusions of yours didn't result in the very same chemical reactions in the brain! :rolleyes:

'pointing out your immense stupidity'

To see something as stupidity you must think your view to encompass intelligence. You need not call yourself superior; I can already see that you think yourself to be above me.

'moron that recognizes another moron'

That could be the case; I recognize myself as a moron though and don't give a shit whether you're intelligent or retarded...you happen to think your utilization of your mental faculties to be superior to mine. You're proud of yourself, and have nothing to be proud of. You haven't done a thing except be a tool, just as I have done nothing but be a tool. The Master I serve just so happens to know what He's making...you serve nothing but your own pride. If you're genuinely happy living high to high, that's cool...but if not, you might want to try asking people questions with the intent of learning rather than trapping them in one of the various nets you've crafted to mask yourself from your own dissatisfaction with life. You ever hear the phrase 'misery loves company'?

'Which changes absolutely nothing of what I said: The biblical passage you quoted proved his point entirely. We are coerced to not deny the Holy Spirit or face condemnation.'

I actually agree 100% with his point, and I see nothing wrong with it whatsoever. If your child was running around disobeying every rule you've ever laid down and turning their life into a miserable piece of shit that they daydream every waking moment of ending by their own hand...wouldn't you tell them that the way they walk leads to death and despair?

The punishment for blaspheming the Spirit is not an attempt at coercion based upon fear. You see it as coercion because you ARE afraid of the destination you are currently headed towards...and because of your pride, you fear reconciliation with something you think not to exist more than your own destruction.

Tell me, Rust, if you don't see yourself as superior to me, then why don't you try what I have done? If you truly see yourself as an equal and not a superior, shouldn't you at least give it an honest attempt? Close your eyes, and yell out (well, think really loudly) every last thing you've ever been afraid of, felt guilty for, felt ashamed of, felt anger towards, felt like you couldn't live without. It was after doing this myself that I was shown his Eye, and heard his Voice whisper my name. I recognized it as his Voice...because well, there aren't too many whispers louder than a jet engine.

You know Rust, I truly hope you aren't so proud that you'll discount trying this simply because I speak of the voice of God, and the Eye. Chances are though, that you simply think me to be more insane than ever, and think yourself to be more superior to me than ever. I hope though, when the moment comes in your life when you realize how meaningless you are in the grand scheme of things, that you'll quit pretending you're anything other than a child of God.

'pointing out your immense stupidity'

To see something as stupidity you must think your view to encompass intelligence. You need not call yourself superior; I can already see that you think yourself to be above me.

Wrong. I must think that your view is stupid. That's it. I don't have to 'think my view to encompass intelligence' since I could share your own view, yet call it stupid because I'm decietful or ... because I'm stupid!

Another possiblity could be that I believe that my position in that specific regard is correct, yet you're equal (or superior) to me when everything else is considered.

Again, you cannot conclude that I'm 'acting superior' just because I point out your stupidity. Your pretty transparent attempt at trying to act humble by accusing me of acting superior, fails again.


If your child was running around disobeying every rule you've ever laid down and turning their life into a miserable piece of shit that they daydream every waking moment of ending by their own hand...wouldn't you tell them that the way they walk leads to death and despair?1. That assumes the Christian God has made his rules explicit. Where are they made explicit?

If you assume the Christian Bible is the rulebook, then that ignores the millions of people that lived before it. Not to mention the countless contradictory interpretations of it.


2. That ignores the omnipotence associated with the Christian god. I wouldn't have to "tell them that the way they walk leads to death and despair" because if I were omnipotent I could make it so death and despair don't exist in the first place.

--

As for the rest...

http://www.wii60.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/yawn.jpg

I've heard similar ramblings before. You assume you know what I fear, you assume you know what I feel, you assume you know I'm too proud, you assume that I consider myself important in the grand scheme of things...

Lots of bullshit assumptions but absolutely no substance to speak of. Why? Because those bullshit assumptions of yours, and the rehtoric you've packaged them into, are the only things you have, and they fail each time. Preciesly why you keep coming back again and again with new crap: trying to see if can attract more flies this time around.

Rust, I don't need to assume you're proud; I know you are proud. You're arguing with someone that isn't arguing with you, and over the internet at that, which would never happen unless you thought yourself to carry some merit in life. You don't, and neither do I. I have admitted my uselessness, and thus have been empowered to some degree of usefulness; I no longer serve the plans of my own ignorance but the plans of the All-Knowing.

One word: irony.

I don't need to assume you're proud; I know you are proud. You're arguing with someone that isn't arguing with you, and over the internet at that, which would never happen unless you thought yourself to carry some merit in life.

You know I'm proud? How proud of you to think that you couldn't be mistaken!

--

Irony indeed, Hare.

I know you are proud because I myself am proud. I know how it manifests in me, and over time I've been humbled enough to know that while us humans are different in our talents and physical attributes, we're all of the same spiritual template...we're just not that unique. Pride manifests in you the same way it does in everyone, me included: self-reliance.

Keep with the arguing, if that's what it takes for you to feel okay about not trying a genuine suggestion from my personal experience that's completely turned my life around, and the lives of millions at that. It's funny, the only price you have to pay is your pride...and you're not even willing to do that. Afraid you'll think less of yourself if you try it and it doesn't work? Afraid you'll have to live life differently when God reveals itself to you? Your soul knows I'm telling you the truth...but your pride won't let you listen to your own soul. And if this didn't ring the least bit true, why do you argue and retort against a repeated message that you could just as easily ignore?

I've heard the voice of God itself and seen through its Eye...it's certainly not as if you could change my mind about it. You're trying to protect your ego...it's certainly comfortable to hold on to, after all, you've probably held onto it from the first time you ever did something wrong. You probably even let it grow up right along side you, justification after justification for that one single thing you first did wrong. It's okay man, the first thing I ever did wrong was rape a girl when I was five years old...I spent a long time trying to justify that as 'natural', among other things, trying to find a cross section of life as godless and sick as me. I found a lot of people who thought children fucking each other like animals was part of nature, and okay, and such...but they were even more miserable than I was. I finally realized that all I had ever really wanted was to be back with God. When I finally just admitted I was lost and couldn't find my way back, God came to me and brought me back.

It doesn't make any sense to me, but it happened, and it has changed me thoroughly.

Again, discount it as hogwash if you want, but you'll only be convincing yourself. There is nothing in this world I value more than God, and that includes your soul.

I'd like to be around in the event you reply to this, but I've other things to tend to.

Peace Rust, best wishes whichever path you take.

I know you are proud because I myself am proud. I know how it manifests in me, and over time I've been humbled enough to know that while us humans are different in our talents and physical attributes, we're all of the same spiritual template...we're just not that unique. Pride manifests in you the same way it does in everyone, me included: self-reliance."

Yes, because self-reliance is a terrible, terrible thing and must be stopped.

I would venture the guess that you are proud because you think you know something that he doesn't, because you think you have on some level, a connection to your devine, and because you think that you're being humble about it.

There's nothing wrong with being proud, but being proud of the wrong thing for the wrong reason isn't exactly virtuous.

"Keep with the arguing, if that's what it takes for you to feel okay about not trying a genuine suggestion from my personal experience that's completely turned my life around, and the lives of millions at that."

It's got nothing to do with pride, and everything to do with the fact that there is nothing, absolutely nothing to suggest that what you talk about has any bearing on reality. You think it takes humility to believe as you do? No, it takes gullibility. You have no proof except your own subjective interpretations of experiences, which is no proof at all.

"It's funny, the only price you have to pay is your pride...and you're not even willing to do that. Afraid you'll think less of yourself if you try it and it doesn't work? Afraid you'll have to live life differently when God reveals itself to you?"

You're saying he can't do something, when the opposite is true. You can't provide proof for your statements, (although I'm sure you don't think that's necessary in logical discourse) so you say he can't let go of his "pride." Projection, plain and simple.

"Your soul knows I'm telling you the truth...but your pride won't let you listen to your own soul."

There is nothing to suggest that humans or any other creatures have supernatural "souls." Can you provide one iota of evidence for this nonsense you spew?

"And if this didn't ring the least bit true, why do you argue and retort against a repeated message that you could just as easily ignore?"

I can't speak for Rust specifically, but I know that lots of people have a natural aversion to what I lovingly refer to as "Remarkably Obvious Bullshit."

When someone comes up to me and starts making illogical statements that have no grounding in reality (Reality: You Live Here Too) and then refuses to back up those statements with anything tangible, I call them on it. When people do this, it tends to prevent charlatans and hoaxers from gaining any ground and wrecking people's shit.

When I "argue" with someone like you, and I'm hesitant to call it arguing because that would suggest you actually have some kind of valid point to make, it's because I want you to stop bullshitting people. Bullshitting people, whether you're aware of the fact that you're doing it or not, is not a cool thing to do, and it tends to piss people off. This is not because any one of use somehow "knows" you're actually right on a visceral level.

"I've heard the voice of God itself and seen through its Eye...it's certainly not as if you could change my mind about it."

Ideally, I'd like for you to never vote. Individually, irrational fools are merely an irritant, but you tend to group together and elect morons who screw me over. Please stop that, if you could.

"You're trying to protect your ego...it's certainly comfortable to hold on to, after all, you've probably held onto it from the first time you ever did something wrong. You probably even let it grow up right along side you, justification after justification for that one single thing you first did wrong."

What he's doing is tearing apart your childish strawmen because nobody likes a lying tool. When liars get away scott free, bad things happen.

"It's okay man, the first thing I ever did wrong was rape a girl when I was five years old...I spent a long time trying to justify that as 'natural', among other things, trying to find a cross section of life as godless and sick as me."

So, assuming you aren't a troll at this point ("I RAPE LITTLE GURLS LOLOLOLOL") I'd suggest you kill yourself, because you were a sick bastard and probably still are a sick bastard. Just because you were "godless" at the time does not mean that all non-believers go out and do terrible things like rape little girls. In fact, most of them are good people, unlike you religious nuts who try to spread lies and hatred (Unwittingly in many cases, I know) wherever they live.

"I found a lot of people who thought children fucking each other like animals was part of nature, and okay, and such...but they were even more miserable than I was. I finally realized that all I had ever really wanted was to be back with God. When I finally just admitted I was lost and couldn't find my way back, God came to me and brought me back."

Again, kill yourself, please. You're sick, and if the only thing keeping you from raping children is your twisted little belief system, you aren't worth the air you breathe.

"It doesn't make any sense to me, but it happened, and it has changed me thoroughly.

Again, discount it as hogwash if you want, but you'll only be convincing yourself. There is nothing in this world I value more than God, and that includes your soul."

Yes, yes yes. You're a nutty religious pedophile. Sadly I have heard this song before, and sadly you never really do get help... you just go on wrapping your sickness up in the blanket of another sickness.

It's okay man, the first thing I ever did wrong was rape a girl when I was five years old....

Pics or it didn't happen.

So, assuming you aren't a troll at this point ("I RAPE LITTLE GURLS LOLOLOLOL") I'd suggest you kill yourself, because you were a sick bastard and probably still are a sick bastard. Just because you were "godless" at the time does not mean that all non-believers go out and do terrible things like rape little girls. In fact, most of them are good people, unlike you religious nuts who try to spread lies and hatred (Unwittingly in many cases, I know) wherever they live.

Again, kill yourself, please. You're sick, and if the only thing keeping you from raping children is your twisted little belief system, you aren't worth the air you breathe.

Yes, yes yes. You're a nutty religious pedophile.

And I'd put money on hexadecimal being a more decent person than you.
Your attitude just shows you are one ugly muthafucka.

By the way, I know EVERY SINGLE ONE of you atheists and agnostics comes to this forum in the hope of finding something worth living for...even if you don't realize it yet. If you didn't have some hope left that there is a Spirit worth trusting, you'd have killed yourselves long ago.

Stop looking, stop running; It will come to you.


I'd like to point out that not every single atheist or agnostic comes here in hopes of finding something worth living for. I think it's a gross assumption to believe that all atheists and agnostics lead lives that are void of love or happiness. I think it's a gross assumption to believe that all atheists and agnostics are "lost", merely fumbling around this earth without any good intent or purpose, unable to give or receive respect or love their fellow human beings any more than a spiritualist would. You're drumming up an "Us against Them" scenario here, a tactic usually reserved for the most rabid, intolerant religious people who draw invisible lines in the sand, as if they somehow have inside information on the personal lives of those who don't worship the same God they do.

You accused Rust of having a superiority complex - but what about you, Hex? Read the paragraph I quoted you on up there, the one where you state that people who lack faith will eventually kill themselves, realizing their lives are so pointless.

If I didn't know you better (or rather, if I didn't see some good in you, having read other posts of yours that were quite loving and friendly), I'd believe someone hacked your account and typed that last sentence, the one where you seem to be surprised that we haven't yet killed ourselves - as if our lives are not even worth living since we refuse to seek out the spiritual realm that you rely on to give your life some semblence of worth and purpose.

Shame on you.

And if you really think there's nothing to this world but the physical, (good laugh at that...ya know, being as things like trust, love, compassion, reason, logic, forgiveness, fear, sorrow, pain, loneliness, anxiety, happiness and so on all exist in a very much non-physical form) well shit...that's hell in and of itself. Have fun pursuing material goods to the end of existence...as for me, I think I'll keep my continuous satisfaction with a spiritual life rather than temporary gratifications in a physical life.

I don't know anybody who denies things such as trust, love, compassion, forgiveness, fear, sorrow, pain, happiness, etc... Those things aren't physical, but they're the result of the mind, a by-product of a physical brain that gives one a perception of an outside world and the luxury of recall and memory to help shape their most private, innermost experiences. Humans have a higher capacity for these emotions than other creatures, sure - but to think that the faculties we have in place that allow these emotions to manifest themselves wouldn't exist without some sort of spiritual knowledge or guidance is ridiculous.

I've led a great portion of my adult life void of spirituality, and I can assure you that I still laugh, I still love, I still have compassion for other human beings, and I still pursue happiness in other things beside what I can see, touch, hear or experience firsthand. Happiness and goodwill is NOT contingent on there being a God Figure there to coax it along and keep it intact. I am living proof of that.

For you to decide that my brand of love, happiness and goodwill is somehow inferior to yours, which you seem to think is impossible without spiritual guidance - is the ultimate show of a superiority complex on your part. Also, don't you think it's a bit of a stretch to assume that your qualia can beat the shit out of my qualia ... when you have absolutely no way of measuring Yours Vs. Mine??

You may believe that my gratification is short-term, and that yours is eternal - but at the end of all things to come, our accumulative emotions that we carried around in our minds will disappear as our brains cease to function. You're content to believe that your state of mind will defy death and exist long, long after your physical body expires. I'm contenting believing that the memory of my state of mind will only survive as long as their are other minds, attached to physical bodies, around to cherish the memory of it. And you know what? I'm perfectly okay with that. In fact, it makes me feel good inside knowing that my purpose isn't to submit to a higher spiritual authority, but to instead submit to making sure I manage to affect as many people as possible so that I can be remembered as a loving, caring, feeling human being who had a genuine respect and vested interest in the feelings of others.

Sorry for the double post, but I just read this in another thread here, and couldn't help but point out the irony/hypocrisy/doublespeak:

Serving pride though...well that just blows. Sure, you get to continually make the same mistakes over and over again and still think you're perfect. After awhile though, you start to feel like there's no real reason to live except to get others to feel like there's no real reason to live.

Prime example of that:

By the way, I know EVERY SINGLE ONE of you atheists and agnostics comes to this forum in the hope of finding something worth living for...even if you don't realize it yet. If you didn't have some hope left that there is a Spirit worth trusting, you'd have killed yourselves long ago.

POW! Zapped in the butt by his own pride, while preaching about the dangers of pride.

Irony?

Wow, Hex attacked from multiple angles. What is this a tagteam event?

Why view it as an attack, Beany? This is a discussion, and if no one replies to the assertions he makes, then it tends to be a bit one-sided, wouldn't you agree?

Besides, I'm sure if Hexadecimal wasn't seeking out a reaction from people, he would have jotted his sentiments down in a spiral notebook that no one would see except him.

Responding to his text isn't an attack, it's a response. I for one don't regard responses that differ from my own as personal attacks, and I can only hope that Hexadecimal is above that, as well.

Why view it as an attack, Beany?

The general attitude.
Words like "Pow" paint a picture.
Sentences like "Go kill yourself please". Stuff like that.

Let my POW! paint a picture of Hex firing his gun towards atheists and agnostic's sense of goodwill, only to misfire and shoot himself in the foot by his response in another thread.

It is sort of cartoonish, don't ya think?

And let's not forget that "you have nothing worth living over" and "go kill yourself, please" is in the same ballpark as far as personal attacks go.

Tit for tat.

Wow, Hex attacked from multiple angles. What is this a tagteam event?

So they can't reply if they disagree with his bullshit or else it's suddenly a tagteam event? Please, I know you like his brand of nonsense, but don't be so desperate. It's pathetic.

It's funny with these guys.

Even if your logic is sound they just break into the "Well, you can't ever really KNOW anything anyway" angle.

Logic and reason don't even phase them and their smug sense of superiority over me.

Saying that Christianity is based on the word of Christ instead of fear is a semantic argument if Christ's teachings were "If you don't believe in what I tell you to, you are going to hell".

You violate your own set of moral codes, in plain sight!

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Do you want other people to take every possible opportunity in life to explain to you why your own beliefs are wrong, and provide an alternate set?

Do you want other people to take every possible opportunity in life to explain to you why your own beliefs are wrong, and provide an alternate set?

Yes, actually. I engage in this process called learning, and another one called growing. If someone can point out one of my weaknesses, and provide a technique for strengthening myself, I'm all ears. Today, I enjoy finding out what one of my problems is so that I may put myself in a position to allow God to fix it.

It's essentially spiritual evolution. Something that is impossible when your ego gets in the way (at that point, positive criticism is taken as insult/nagging/evangelism/so on).

If you could possibly point out how my trust in God is a weakness of mine, I would abandon it in a heartbeat.

Keep with the arguing, if that's what it takes for you to feel okay about not trying a genuine suggestion from my personal experience that's completely turned my life around, and the lives of millions at that. It's funny, the only price you have to pay is your pride...and you're not even willing to do that. Afraid you'll think less of yourself if you try it and it doesn't work? Afraid you'll have to live life differently when God reveals itself to you? Your soul knows I'm telling you the truth...but your pride won't let you listen to your own soul. And if this didn't ring the least bit true, why do you argue and retort against a repeated message that you could just as easily ignore?

Again I find myself reminding you that: you have absolutely no clue what I've tried, what I feel, what I know, what I've been through, or what I believe. No clue at all. All you have is this third-rate detective work of yours, which fails every time. Yet you keep making the same baseless assumptions, the same worthless claims - confident and proud of their "truth".

Not following this nonsense of yours has nothing to do with my "pride". It has everything to do with not having any good reason for doing so. Unsubstantiated bullshit wrapped tightly in rhetoric does not make a good reason. Baseless assumptions sprinkled with self-righteousness, again, does not make a good reason.

If anyone is too full of pride here, it is you. So confident and full of pride, in fact, that you admit you couldn't be convinced otherwise! Your mind is so made up, you are so proud and confident of the "truth" of your claims, that you admit I can't possibly change your mind!

"...it's certainly not as if you could change my mind about it".


The irony is delicious. Thank you for that.

Let my POW! paint a picture of Hex firing his gun towards atheists and agnostic's sense of goodwill, only to misfire and shoot himself in the foot by his response in another thread.

It is sort of cartoonish, don't ya think?

And let's not forget that "you have nothing worth living over" and "go kill yourself, please" is in the same ballpark as far as personal attacks go.

Tit for tat.

Let's not forget that neither of those things were said. A reiteration that might be understood better: So long as they have hope, there is one thing worth living for. Both statements were iterations of the same truth. (Hope is one facet of God - so long as one has Hope, they remain alive) Even with the blatant truth in front of one's eyes, contempt will prevent any learning from taking place.

And as to this: A sense of good will? More egotistical drivel. Human goodwill is nothing but self-glorification.

Pics or it didn't happen.

HAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh shit jack...that lightened the mood tremendously.

Sorry, I was only five. I didn't even know about cameras yet. :(

HAHAHAHAHAHA! Oh shit jack...that lightened the mood tremendously.

Sorry, I was only five. I didn't even know about cameras yet. :(

If i remember aright my first 'rape' was around age 9....although actual intercourse took place but well...*cough* involuntary examinations of a gynocological nature*cough*

And I'd put money on hexadecimal being a more decent person than you.
Your attitude just shows you are one ugly muthafucka.

Thank you Beany. But I must say, I'm not a decent person. I struggle the same as anybody else. Today though, I am fortunate enough to have God's help in placing my will towards constructive activities rather than indulgence in primal urges.

Now we have two HellzShellz!

Thank you Beany. But I must say, I'm not a decent person.

In that case, hail Surak!!

Oh, well then what other historical text is an accurate account of Christ's teachings? Oh, wait there are none!

Exactly. Plus the Bible was written by man. In fact, some scripture was not added until centuries after Christ died, so try to imagine how much the content has been twisted as the story passes along each generation. Has anyone ever played the "telephone game" in kindergarten? The same concept applies here. Man makes mistakes, God does not. If we were perfect, life would be boring. God is smarter than you people are giving Him credit for.

By the way, I know EVERY SINGLE ONE of you atheists and agnostics comes to this forum in the hope of finding something worth living for...even if you don't realize it yet. If you didn't have some hope left that there is a Spirit worth trusting, you'd have killed yourselves long ago.

LOL....

I love what xtians say they know. Many people exist without theism and do not kill themselves. I PROMISE YOU THIS IS FACT: More theists commit suicide than non-theists.

Yes, yes yes. You're a nutty religious pedophile. Sadly I have heard this song before, and sadly you never really do get help... you just go on wrapping your sickness up in the blanket of another sickness.

+1 Nicely said.

congratulations on your original thought OP!

I've always had this question/thought about the christian (jewish, muslim, their all the same) God. It doesn't seem worth it's own thread, yet I've never seen a satisfactory reply when I post in one of these...

Here is why I don't believe in a loving all powerful God:

Suffering exists... the end, that is all. If He was loving, He would not wish His creation (us) to suffer, yet we do. If He was all powerful then He could stop our suffering. So either He doesn't really love us, or He isn't really all powerful.

Now for a pre-emptive strike on the replies: "He gave us free will." Being all powerful He could do anything. Could He create a rock so heavy He couldn't lift it? Yes. Could He lift that rock? Yes. Does it make sense? No, it doesn't have to, he is all powerful. A lot of people underestimate how powerful that is. He could give us freewill, yet control what we do at the same time.

"It's like giving your kid a bike. You know he will eventually fall and hurt himself, but you want him to enjoy the bike." Wrong. It's more like putting an ice cube on the side walk in the middle of summer and telling it not to melt. It's entirely in your power to put that ice cube back in your freezer, but instead you'll sit there and yell at it not to melt, knowing the entire time it will.

LOL....

I love what xtians say they know. Many people exist without theism and do not kill themselves. I PROMISE YOU THIS IS FACT: More theists commit suicide than non-theists.

unrelated question:
what faith do you aline with B.P. just cause hearing the word xtian makes me think of the cyber-cult known as the Joyofsatan

which for some reason has been making an appearance on totse more often

Suffering exists... the end, that is all. If He was loving, He would not wish His creation (us) to suffer, yet we do. If He was all powerful then He could stop our suffering. So either He doesn't really love us, or He isn't really all powerful.

Have you suffered? You have just received a painful medical inoculation against the illness of indifference. Anger and bitterness are nasty side effects of this shot but if you continue to grow, the anger and bitterness will fade away with the sweet passing of time. They will be choked out by better things in your Being. But the Compassion will grow in you for all Eternity, until it is a deep, primal, worldwide Forest of Love and Comfort. Have patience with yourself. A weed grows up overnight but it takes a long time to grow a Forest of Sequoia.



Time Withers the Weed

Suffering produces two plants

The weed and the Flower

Anger and Compassion

Weakness and Power



The Flower evolves forever

Time withers the weed

For to learn Compassion

Is All Life's Greatest Need.



It can't be learned in Paradise

There is no suffering there.

So all must tramp this vale of tears

Beyond what their Hearts can bear



The Angel and the Alien

The Christ and the Flea

All must gain a broken Heart

And Eyes with which to see



The suffering of all Creatures

The Powered and the Poor

Indifference is the illness

Suffering is the Cure.

http://www.proofgodexists.org/why_suffering_exists.htm

Now for a pre-emptive strike on the replies: "He gave us free will." Being all powerful He could do anything. Could He create a rock so heavy He couldn't lift it? Yes. Could He lift that rock? Yes. Does it make sense? No, it doesn't have to, he is all powerful. A lot of people underestimate how powerful that is. He could give us freewill, yet control what we do at the same time.

"It's like giving your kid a bike. You know he will eventually fall and hurt himself, but you want him to enjoy the bike." Wrong. It's more like putting an ice cube on the side walk in the middle of summer and telling it not to melt. It's entirely in your power to put that ice cube back in your freezer, but instead you'll sit there and yell at it not to melt, knowing the entire time it will.

Free will does not mean do whatever you wish. There are always limitations when something is "free". What God means by free will is whether or not you choose to believe in and follow Him. He loves you so much that He sent His Son to die on the cross for your sins, so that you could have another chance. Whether or not you use your second chance is up to you, that is the purpose of free will.

Are you going to answer his point about the existence of evil or not? Because that little poem/song thing doesn't answer anything...

+1 Nicely said.

BP, if you could explain how believing in God is even REMOTELY sick in comparison to raping, cheating, lying, stealing, watching kiddy porn, making bombs, paying for sex, drinking day in and out, drugging myself into oblivion, ect. I'm ALL ears!

Now, if you CAN'T explain how Faith is even remotely sick in comparison to the vices humanity makes available...well, maybe you should rethink your affinity for the mockery of Faith as a 'sickness'. There's one less psychotic thieving rapist with an affinity for child porn, bombs, and prostitutes in this world because of the discovery of Faith.

God has truly done for me what NO MEASURE OF HUMAN POWER COULD EVEN BEGIN TO ACCOMPLISH (I didn't even think I had a problem). And the only thing I have to do to receive this Transformation is pray for it; and to keep it I have to tell about it.

If Faith is sickness, I'm happy and grateful as fuck to be Infected.

Congratulations are in order to Hex for realizing that child porn, rape, constant intoxication and stealing from others are traits that he found himself holding despite the fact that he felt they were wrong, disgusting and not the way he wants to live his life.

Kudos to you for waking up from that nightmare, Hex. I applaud YOU.

YOU, that is - the experiencing, thinking human being who had the capacity to make a positive change in his life for the better. You credit the Holy Spirit for giving you this push in the right direction, but I will remain convinced that your About-Face resulted from the simple cognition of realizing that you had it in you all along, but just needed an excuse to bring it to the surface so that you can utilize it to heal yourself of whatever it was that drove you to partaking in such unsavory acts. Maybe such an abrupt change of mind was so surprising to you and you were so grateful for it that you felt like it must have been guided by some invisible force that's looking after your well-being. But more likely, far more plausible, and exceedingly more relevant - you just simply grew tired of living a life that was stewing in self-indulgence and moral depravity. The subconscious elixir that remedied the "bad" characteristics you displayed to the world ... perhaps the only way you can benefit from it is to trick yourself into believing that it was given to you, as a gift.

In my humble opinion, it was inside you all along. Credit God with your success if you must, but let's not forget about those who have successfully overcome similar ruts without assigning an outside source as the Savior. Their success is not any less magnificent than yours, and their methods are by no means inferior or incomplete compared to the ones you utilize for your own well-being.

Congratulations are in order to Hex for realizing that child porn, rape, constant intoxication and stealing from others are traits that he found himself holding despite the fact that he felt they were wrong, disgusting and not the way he wants to live his life.

Kudos to you for waking up from that nightmare, Hex. I applaud YOU.

YOU, that is - the experiencing, thinking human being who had the capacity to make a positive change in his life for the better. You credit the Holy Spirit for giving you this push in the right direction, but I will remain convinced that your About-Face resulted from the simple cognition of realizing that you had it in you all along, but just needed an excuse to bring it to the surface so that you can utilize it to heal yourself of whatever it was that drove you to partaking in such unsavory acts. Maybe such an abrupt change of mind was so surprising to you and you were so grateful for it that you felt like it must have been guided by some invisible force that's looking after your well-being. But more likely, far more plausible, and exceedingly more relevant - you just simply grew tired of living a life that was stewing in self-indulgence and moral depravity. The subconscious elixir that remedied the "bad" characteristics you displayed to the world ... perhaps the only way you can benefit from it is to trick yourself into believing that it was given to you, as a gift.

In my humble opinion, it was inside you all along. Credit God with your success if you must, but let's not forget about those who have successfully overcome similar ruts without assigning an outside source as the Savior. Their success is not any less magnificent than yours, and their methods are by no means inferior or incomplete compared to the ones you utilize for your own well-being.

Yes Femme, millions have utilized a variety of tools to overcome their self (call it pride, ego, vanity, consciousness, whatever...the point being that it's the outermost part of your being). And yes Femme, it WAS found very deep within myself...but also, it was found in every thread of the universe. It exists within everyone, everything, everywhere. It is capable of anything, and knows the details of every situation. Some call it the collective unconsciousness, some call it the dream world, some call it god. What matters more to me is that it has done such wonderful things for my life, and yes, by my decision to utilize it, that I choose today to worship it and call it God. Does it need me to do that? No, it doesn't...but *I* need to do that. I'd be back onto the path of self-seeking and self-destruction if I ever let myself not be grateful for what the Presence, Wisdom, and Power has done in my life.

You can argue over the terminology of God I use for this tremendous force...but please don't even suggest I don't owe this Being everything. I'm a part of It, but such a small one that placing any of my gratitude for where I am today upon myself is precisely unjust.

The Bible is riddled with contradictions


Could you please point some out, I'm not saying I disagree, I would just like to know specifically what contradicts itself.

I've always had this question/thought about the christian (jewish, muslim, their all the same) God. It doesn't seem worth it's own thread, yet I've never seen a satisfactory reply when I post in one of these...

Here is why I don't believe in a loving all powerful God:

Suffering exists... the end, that is all. If He was loving, He would not wish His creation (us) to suffer, yet we do. If He was all powerful then He could stop our suffering. So either He doesn't really love us, or He isn't really all powerful.

Now for a pre-emptive strike on the replies: "He gave us free will." Being all powerful He could do anything. Could He create a rock so heavy He couldn't lift it? Yes. Could He lift that rock? Yes. Does it make sense? No, it doesn't have to, he is all powerful. A lot of people underestimate how powerful that is. He could give us freewill, yet control what we do at the same time.

"It's like giving your kid a bike. You know he will eventually fall and hurt himself, but you want him to enjoy the bike." Wrong. It's more like putting an ice cube on the side walk in the middle of summer and telling it not to melt. It's entirely in your power to put that ice cube back in your freezer, but instead you'll sit there and yell at it not to melt, knowing the entire time it will.

Ya know why suffering exists?
When desires conceive, sin is born. Sin is separation from God. Separation from God is suffering.
Now, you can argue that war is suffering, but nations go to war because of their desires...for power, for resources, etc. Desire IS the root of all suffering. God does not tempt us, our own desires do. When we succumb to our own desires, we have sinned and experience suffering in a myriad of forms: fear, anger, shame, guilt, loneliness, sorrow, and so on.

The moment we admit to our innermost self that we have succumbed to a delusion (that is, that our desires' fulfillment will bring us satisfaction), we are then in the position to ask forgiveness and receive it; it is at this moment that suffering is fully alleviated. This is what taking responsibility fully entails. You can blame the world for your misery, or you can be honest about it and admit that you're fucking miserable because reality doesn't match YOUR fantasy world where fulfillment of desire is an entitlement not deserving of pain or grief. Suffering doesn't exist...you're just choosing to live in a make believe world, and thus don't experience the reality of Love. Being locked inside your mind, all by yourself, closed off from the God you abandoned...that's what we call suffering...but it's all delusional. God's always there, we just don't feel Love when we're chasing pipe-dreams.

'The way that can be followed is not the eternal Way.' TtC, Verse 1, Lines 1-2.
You CANNOT follow God, it's there and everywhere. Any path that can be followed is a path of desire that leads away from the reality of God...the Way just simply is the Way.

Umm... God created us with desire? All powerful consists of quite a few things. When He created us, He instilled that desire in us. Or if you believe Adam and Eve (personally when I was kid, I always just saw it as an analogy), He created the serpent knowing it would tempt Eve, and created Eve knowing she would take the apple. He set us up for failure.

The point I was trying to make before, that I don't really think I got through, is that there is pain and suffering in the world. If I do not desire anything, I will still feel pain. Being all powerful and the creator of everything, God makes us feel pain (doesn't sound very loving does it?). He could very easily snap his fingers and bam: pains gone, thirst is gone, hunger is gone, anger is gone, malice is gone, etc. If He were truly all powerful, and truly loved everyone, He would do that, why doesn't He?

Fear, anger, shame, guilt, loneliness, sorrow may all exist because of my desires, but why do I have those desires? Again all powerful comes into play, those feelings could just not exist. If God decided to get rid of anger, I would never be angry.

Could you please point some out, I'm not saying I disagree, I would just like to know specifically what contradicts itself.

Here is a small list to get you going.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

I fucking love threads like this. Some dumbass theist getting the shit kicked out of them? That is why I come to this forum.

Hex, Rust is superior to you because he doesn't have an imaginary friend.

Nothing you ever do can prove the existence of any deity. I don't care what you've done or how you've hallucinated. I saw through the Eye of God once too. I was playing Black and White: Creature Island.

Man will only be free when the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.

I don't think it's possible to prove God exists to another person, which is why it's pointless to ask someone for proof or to attempt to provide it.

I think the only way is to discover for yourself.
Which I think the quote "No-one can be shown the matrix, you have to see it for yourself", from the Matrix is saying.(Bearing in mind it also depends on what your understandings of God are).

Although I admit that even if you do find what you believe to be proof, there is always possible other explanations for what you think you've experienced such as it being entirely your deluded imagination.

Personally I've experienced states of consciousness in which I experience a reality that resembles what spiritual teachers talk about. It's awesomely deep, real and gives me a deeper understanding of what "Life" "God" and "Heaven" might be.
In fact the state of consciousness I'm talking about reminds me of what it felt like to be a child, before my mind got crammed with knowledge, meanings, labels and all sorts of other data. Maybe that's worth thinking about.

Here is a small list to get you going.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

Seriously. That was one of the most God-awful list of Bible contradictions I've ever read. Half the time it's all nitpicking, the rest of the time, it's bullshit.

^ That's what I thought, but I didn't care to mention it.
Not to say there isn't a worthwhile list somewhere, but that one was lame.

... and in one fell swoop you refuted all the contradictions listed with those two exaggerations!

... and in one fell swoop you refuted all the contradictions listed with those two exaggerations!

*shrugs*

Wasn't attempting to refute them, I just consider them shit.

And "Shit" (or "bullshit" which si what you initially said) means what? Wrong? Or Right? If it's wrong, then that is definitely not support by those sweeping generalizations of yours.

And "Shit" means what? Wrong? Or Right? If it's wrong, then you may not be attempting to refute them, but you're making a claim - one which is definitely not support by those sweeping generalizations of yours.

Okay.

I read the Bible, and all literature, in a way that involves treating the work as a whole, rather than as a group of unrelated sentences. Context for me is one of the most fundamental parts of a text. I feel that here context is being ignored.

The way this person is treating the bible is far too simple for me, I like to look into things a bit deeper than what they just say on the outside, maybe I'm doing it wrong, but this is how I read.

They may be right, but I don't agree with them.

Seriously. That was one of the most God-awful list of Bible contradictions I've ever read. Half the time it's all nitpicking, the rest of the time, it's bullshit.

I said it was a small list to get you going.

Which is exactly what it is.

I didn't say it was "The definitive and all encompassing, completely correct, list of biblical contradictions"

As far as I'm concerned, even a single contradiction invalidates it as truth.

The order of creation is a fairly important thing to mess up with poor editing.

Genesis 1 contradicts Genesis 2, in plain English. (*)

The writers are unable to get even simple details correct.

If they can't get even simple details correct, why would they be able to get important things correct, like moral standards?

(*) If you don't take my word for it, I'm not going to do the work for you. Write down the order of creation in Genesis 1. On a different sheet write it down in Genesis 2 and compare the sheets. They contradict each other.

I feel that here context is being ignored.


Well that's a much better objection.

Still, are you suggesting that adding "context" to the cited contradictions will show that they aren't contradictions?

Take the last words of Jesus. Mark/Mathew, John and Luke give conflicting accounts. What context could possibly be added that would change this? Unless you're suggesting the list misquotes the bible, context would not make these statements any less different.

This might not seem like an Earth-shattering difference, but it definitely does show a contradiction (the intent of the list) which then goes against the idea of the bible being infallible.

Man will be free only when bigotry is extinguished by acceptance of that which he cannot understand.

Reacting with forceful insults is an enslavement to one's own bigotry through the path of intolerance.

Were a man free, he would see the commonality that exists in ALL expressions, thus enabling himself to be his true self no matter the circumstance or situation he is in: fearless, exuberant, satisfied.

You desire to destroy my faith - it scares you, saddens you, discomforts you. My faith does these things to you because you desire self-reliance. Even under your desire to destroy my faith lays the Truth to Help; but you believe in your own way to help rather than the Way to Help that existed before you devised your own. The way you crafted and desire to follow doesn't help though as you have yet to be helped; it inflicts with violent words that would scare me, sadden me, and discomfort me had I the desire to maintain my faith: I don't desire my faith, it just is.

You seek to free from mental, emotional, and spiritual bondage because you are as much a child of Love as I am. But you utilize your own ways because you don't rely upon Love to free those you wish to. In the end, this leaves you frightened, saddened, and discomforted whether or not the person you seek to free is responsive.

Look deeper Prometheum: You don't have to worship it, or even call it God...it will still love you and free you, and then you'll be able to do what you were meant to: herald true love and true freedom to the world, free from fear, sorrow, and anger.

Is this guy trolling?

Is this guy trolling?

Rather than asking that, why don't you ask Prometheum if life ever presents situations which scare him, sadden him, and bring him to anger no matter how much he wills himself to be happy? These three sufferings result from desire for that which cannot be fulfilled: Giving what is not possessed.

Why does anyone argue against something they see as wrong? They wish to help their fellows know the truth, do they not? How can a man who doesn't know the truth help another find the truth?

I don't want to guide anyone, I speak Truth for love of Truth.

I speak Truth for love of Truth.

I hope the irony isn't wasted on anyone else.

I still don't understand the a priori assumption common amongst western theists that there is a God singular as a opposed to plural. Why should we assume there is only one? Why do so many "searchers" adamantly hold it in their hearts that there must be a singular spiritual deity out there while at the same time they reject the Abrahamic religions that are the source of western monotheism. One would assume that logically one would be rejected along with the other.

That's why I never really bring up bible contradictions and the like as indication of religious flaws. By doing so one only succeeds in acknowledging the bible as a source of legitimate spiritual knowledge. If the bible was internally consistent would that then make it a factual document? of course not. I could care less if the bible is consistent or not, it has about as bearing as the consistency of ancient Egyptian mythology. My sole concern is why should I accept this holy book as true but all others as false?

Because Jesus died for my sins?
So what.
Everyday Ra defends himself against the demon Apep ensuring the dominance of order over chaos.
Why is one more relevant than the other?

Well that's a much better objection.

Still, are you suggesting that adding "context" to the cited contradictions will show that they aren't contradictions?

Take the last words of Jesus. Mark/Mathew, John and Luke give conflicting accounts. What context could possibly be added that would change this? Unless you're suggesting the list misquotes the bible, context would not make these statements any less different.

This might not seem like an Earth-shattering difference, but it definitely does show a contradiction (the intent of the list) which then goes against the idea of the bible being infallible.

I kinda feel that answering this is just gnna make it look like I'm copping out answering properly, but, oh well.

Context me be the wrong word to describe my problem really (in this case at least, at other times I feel that the contradictions are nothing more than literal techniques used by the author to make a point, for example the contradiction in Jeremiah that is in a thread somewhere around here... I think that's the one anyway :S). I think my problem is that just because there is a contradiction I don't think it detracts from the message of the text, and you can use each contradiction to get a message.

For example, In Matthew and Mark Jesus asks why God has forsaken him, I might use this to show how Jesus was still a Man under everything, and how even Jesus can despair; but also you could then show that because Jesus is ressurected it is also a faith affirming story. If even the Son of Man can despair, then problems with faith and doubts, need not be so great. Even He feels despair despite being so close to God, it only serves as a way to show believer that in our hardest moments we may feel that God has forsaken us, yet he never truly will.

You could say that Luke and John show that Jesus willingly goes through the crucifixion so that he would achieve his purpose even though he could of removed himself from the cross at will.

I don't really mind if the Bible is Infallible or not, if it is the word of God, then I feel that the message could still be there, even under differant words. Seeing as I don't believe in God the truth or lack of truth in the Bible is a moot point for me, I'm really just reading it for amusement.

But I'll agree that to christians contradictions could be a problem.

You desire to destroy my faith - it scares you, saddens you, discomforts you. My faith does these things to you because you desire self-reliance. Even under your desire to destroy my faith lays the Truth to Help; but you believe in your own way to help rather than the Way to Help that existed before you devised your own. The way you crafted and desire to follow doesn't help though as you have yet to be helped; it inflicts with violent words that would scare me, sadden me, and discomfort me had I the desire to maintain my faith: I don't desire my faith, it just is.

I do not wish to destroy your faith. It is the mental illness you have chosen to cover your other illness of being an admitted junkie rapist with. If I destroyed that you would probably be a rapist again. Because YOU (understand that) Y O U are fucked up.

You have to admitt that you are (or were if YOU prefer) a fucked up individual. Very fucked up, to the core. Not everyone is addicted to child porn, drugs, and raping people, like you were. So not everyone needs to forgive themselves through their own imagination like you have done.

You found God in some support group for emotional cripples like AA. All of you losers find God there, or the higher power if you will.

Obviously the list of contradictions is aimed at those who do believe that the bible is infallible, and that it's an indispensable part of their faith.

Saying that context is needed might be a valid point in your way of reading the bible, but it certainly does not make the list any less damning for those that do believe is infallible.

Of course, that still poses a problem for your view, since it brings questions as to why a god would choose such a confusion-prone way of giving a message in the first place.

I think my problem is that just because there is a contradiction I don't think it detracts from the message of the text, and you can use each contradiction to get a message.

This is b/c you read what YOU want into the text itself. The text lends itself this way b/c it was designed to do just that.

Your statement is the mentality of people who believe in astrology and read their horoscopes every morning before they phone their psychic friend, I promise you.

Think on that.

This is b/c you read what YOU want into the text itself. The text lends itself this way b/c it was designed to do just that.

Your statement is the mentality of people who believe in astrology and read their horoscopes every morning before they phone their psychic friend, I promise you.

Think on that.

My mentality is that of an English student.

Think on that.

....

I felt like refuting that, but what can I actually refute? Its just vague capitalized Buzzwords, aligned in a Random Fashion.

And no, man will only be free when the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest. I don't fear you, I know you'll die. You, on the other hand, don't. You have delusions that if you telepathically suck enough cock, you'll become immortal.

You won't, though. The only problem is if the mental virus you carry spreads. Humanity should treat religion with the same mentality it treats AIDS. Only one is more deadly, and I think we all know which one I'm referring to.

Nothing will free me except myself. Nothing will bring any "truth" to me except science. No amount of insight can change the world. Only action changes things.

Why would I try to "will myself" to be happy? Happiness isn't life. Suffering is life, as long as life is contaminated by the religion virus. One day humanity will be cured, and then things will start to pick up.

http://www.seesharppress.com/20reasons.html


Christianity is based on fear
Christianity preys on the innocent
Christianity is based on dishonesty
Christianity is extremely egocentric
Christianity breeds arrogance, a chosen-people mentality
Christianity breeds authoritarianism
Christianity is cruel
Christianity is anti-intellectual, anti-scientific
Christianity has a morbid, unhealthy preoccupation with sex
Christianity produces sexual misery
Christianity has an exceedingly narrow, legalistic view of morality
Christianity encourages acceptance of real evils while focusing on imaginary evils
Christianity depreciates the natural world
Christianity models hierarchical, authoritarian organization
Christianity sanctions slavery
Christianity is misogynistic
Christianity is homophobic
The Bible is not a reliable guide to Christ's teachings
The Bible is riddled with contradictions
Christianity borrowed its central myths and ceremonies from other ancient religions

Ummm...This would be better suited to say "20 reasons to abandon RELIGION"

My mentality is that of an English student.

Think on that.

If by English student you mean someone who sees a body of work and recognizes the writing style as being over generalized like horoscopes are and for the same reasons, then I have already thought on that, and stated as much.

Christianity is based on fear

This is not true, by a long shot. Christianity is based on faith. Even Jedi Master Yoda would have to agree with me here, as he states in The Phantom Menace:

"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

By your logic, you are saying that Christianity is the path to the dark side. This is not true at all. In fact, all of your statements are null and void. Your post is based on nothing but thoughts produced by circular reasoning, as all of your listed reasons revolve around the same idea that Christianity is evil. You have yet to justify your stance on this topic. I'm waiting.....

You took it too far! Now everyone knows you're a troll... :(

Christianity is not based upon any of those things.

Christianity, along with all other religions, is based upon faith.

Using the Bible to disprove Christianity is just as fallacious as taking every word in the Bible as absolute truth.The Bible was written by men so it would be safe to assume it would be subject to mistakes.


The idea of proving or disproving a religion is absurd. Religion never has and never will be based upon unrefutable facts. If that were so it would undermine the very purpose of religion. Religion aspires hope. It is so much easier to believe that there is something greater than one's self, and that your life has a purpose, even beyond death.

Most people would not be able to get out of bed in the morning if they didn't believe that all of the atrocities of this world happened for no reason. Not being able to believe that there is a greater good would be too much for some people.

That is why religion will never be based upon such things as fear or works of men. Putting one's faith in something that they don't know is true, hoping beyond hope that there is a reason to the madness, that is the true goal of religion. The true goal of Christianity.

This is not true, by a long shot. Christianity is based on faith. Even Jedi Master Yoda would have to agree with me here, as he states in The Phantom Menace:

"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

By your logic, you are saying that Christianity is the path to the dark side. This is not true at all. In fact, all of your statements are null and void. Your post is based on nothing but thoughts produced by circular reasoning, as all of your listed reasons revolve around the same idea that Christianity is evil. You have yet to justify your stance on this topic. I'm waiting.....

Christianity does lead the the dark side. What do you call the Crusades, the Inquisition, all of that stuff?

Sure, it isn't Sith outright, but it is very dark.

Christianity does lead the the dark side. What do you call the Crusades, the Inquisition, all of that stuff?

Sure, it isn't Sith outright, but it is very dark.

Not true at all. Perhaps this may be so during medieval times, when there was military conflict during pointless religious wars and ancient heresy laws. None of this exists anymore, and like everything else, Christianity has evolved. Again, it is based on faith, not on biased beliefs.

Not true at all. Perhaps this may be so during medieval times, when there was military conflict during pointless religious wars and ancient heresy laws. None of this exists anymore, and like everything else, Christianity has evolved. Again, it is based on faith, not on biased beliefs.

The Dark Side is a belief too. the fact is, it encourages rash behaviour and individualism, as well as fear, hatred, love, and all the other bad things.

If a jedi shall not know love, than how does Christ fit in?

The Dark Side is a belief too. the fact is, it encourages rash behaviour and individualism, as well as fear, hatred, love, and all the other bad things.

If a jedi shall not know love, than how does Christ fit in?

Christianity and the Force are two different concepts. I was quoting Jedi Master Yoda because although he is not a Christian, he happens to be correct. Fear is the path to evil; it is the simple nature of human beings. So, you cannot say that Christianity is based on fear because you are implying that the religion within itself is evil. In fact, the Bible states that we should not be worrisome, take a look:


Philippians 4:6-7

6 do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.

7 And the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

With that being said, you also have to discard all of the other listed reasons to abandon Christianity, because they all revolve around the same idea.

Christianity and the Force are two different concepts. I was quoting Jedi Master Yoda because although he is not a Christian, he happens to be correct. Fear is the path to evil; it is the simple nature of human beings. So, you cannot say that Christianity is based on fear because you are implying that the religion within itself is evil. In fact, the Bible states that we should not be worrisome, take a look:



With that being said, you also have to discard all of the other listed reasons to abandon Christianity, because they all revolve around the same idea.

I think you just stumbled across the definition of a circular argument.

Give me a spirituality where I communicate with a being that isn't man, and I shall believe in it.

I think you just stumbled across the definition of a circular argument.

How so?

You are using the bible to justify the existence of the bible.

Give me a spirituality where I communicate with a being that isn't man, and I shall believe in it.

Give you belief and let you find that spirituality.

You are using the bible to justify the existence of the bible.

I assume you mean the existence of God, right? Of course the bible exists, you can find one in just about any book store. My stance has nothing to do with God's existence. That can be argued in another thread, this discussion is about the supposed reasons to abandon the religion altogether.

Anyway, you happen to be wrong, I was using the bible to justify that fear is the path to the dark side. Therefore, Christianity is not based on fear. My argument is not circular

I assume you mean the existence of God, right? Of course the bible exists, you can find one in just about any book store. My stance has nothing to do with God's existence. That can be argued in another thread, this discussion is about the supposed reasons to abandon the religion altogether.

Anyway, you happen to be wrong, I was using the bible to justify that fear is the path to the dark side. Therefore, Christianity is not based on fear. My argument is not circular

The wording and meaning of my post is correct, but apparently at a higher reading level than you are used to.

The wording and meaning of my post is correct, but apparently at a higher reading level than you are used to.

Meeeeow!!

So, you cannot say that Christianity is based on fear because you are implying that the religion within itself is evil.

It is.

You'll notice that while the Sith had their dogma and their elaborate ritualistic lives, the Jedi lived simply and for the betterment of the communities they lived in, simply for the good of doing so. They told what they knew to those who asked, and were kind.

The Sith conquered and converted by force, killing those those who resisted.

Besides, all the Popes look like Darth Sidious.

Coincidence? I THINK NOT.

It is.

You'll notice that while the Sith had their dogma and their elaborate ritualistic lives, the Jedi lived simply and for the betterment of the communities they lived in, simply for the good of doing so. They told what they knew to those who asked, and were kind.

The Sith conquered and converted by force, killing those those who resisted.

Besides, all the Popes look like Darth Sidious.

Coincidence? I THINK NOT.


I can't believe starwars is being used at the centre of this arguemnt :P

But to the thread and the analogy:

Christ preached a simple and communal life, he preached charity, kindness, and, greatest of all, Love. Love is the central point to christianity. 'Be devoted to each other in brotherly love. Honour one another above yourselves.' Romans 12:10

Think of two men, one who follows a belief that he will care for people before himself and another man who believes in following only his own pleasures and desires. Which man is more likely to do good? The former, right?

And if it is the former, what is he closer to in his actions, the words of Christ, or of Fear?

It is the church that has turned the basis of christianity from Love to Fear. Fear is used as a tactic of recruitment, instead of Love.

I've kinda lost my place, so I'll end it on this note ,'Love does no harm to it's neighbour. Therefore Love is the fulfillment of the law.' Romans 13:10

Actually, Jesus seemed like a pretty hateful and spiteful dude.

"Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's foes will be those of his own household. He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me."

http://www.seesharppress.com/20reasons.html


Christianity is based on fear
Already debunked this
Christianity preys on the innocent
No, God gave us free will. Whether or not you become a follower to Jesus is up to you.
Christianity is based on dishonesty
How so? God hates liars and deceivers, and what about "Thou shalt not bear false witness?"
Christianity is extremely egocentric
It is actually quite the opposite. Jesus said, "Love thy neighbor". Doesn't sound too egocentric to me.
Christianity breeds arrogance, a chosen-people mentality
Not true, Jesus died on the cross so that ALL can be saved, not just the chosen ones. It just depends upon whether or not you believe and obey His teachings.
Christianity breeds authoritarianism
Absolutely false. I'm beginning to think that every one of these justifications are based on nothing but insubstantial claims.
Christianity is cruel
That may be true during medieval times, but that is a result of ego-mentality, not the religion itself.
Christianity is anti-intellectual, anti-scientific
No, science supports Christianity. Even modern physicists are starting to accept that a higher Intelligence exists
Christianity has a morbid, unhealthy preoccupation with sex
Christianity produces sexual misery
Neither of these are true, God did not forbid masturbation. Just play stick shift until you get married, problem solved.
Christianity has an exceedingly narrow, legalistic view of morality
Wrong again. Many laws in the United States may be based on the Bible's laws, but that has nothing to do with Christianity itself
Christianity encourages acceptance of real evils while focusing on imaginary evils
Christianity depreciates the natural world
Christianity models hierarchical, authoritarian organization
Christianity sanctions slavery
Christianity is misogynistic
Christianity is homophobic
Now you are just trolling, provide proof or leave
The Bible is not a reliable guide to Christ's teachings
The Bible is riddled with contradictions
I would agree with this, you cannot take everything in the Bible literally. It is full of contradiction because the Good Book is composed of documentation and letters that were passed down and copied over and over for thousands of years, there is no way the Bible you have contains the original documents. It is also poorly translated back and forth between old world English, Greek, and ancient Hebrew.
Christianity borrowed its central myths and ceremonies from other ancient religions
Proof?

Problem solved, let this thread die.

So you've debunked your own holy book after using it to justify why your religion isn't <any of the things you said it wasn't>?

I lol'd when the theist shouted BASELESS CLAIMS after not actually saying anything.

So you've debunked your own holy book after using it to justify why your religion isn't <any of the things you said it wasn't>?

I lol'd when the theist shouted BASELESS CLAIMS after not actually saying anything.

The Bible may contradict itself, but that doesn't mean it is wrong. It isn't written by a sole author, it is a collection of documents written by witnesses, that were passed down for thousands of years before printed in the Bible. In fact, events that happened long before Christ were not written in until centuries after Christ died on the cross.

The OP just posted a list he found online, I don't see anything to back it up. The pamphlet this comes from only provides their own viewpoint on Christianity, which happens to be false. There is no cited evidence or proof that this list is relevant at all.

Bill, why are you defending yourself?

"Resist not the evil man, but when he slaps your cheek, turn towards him your other."

The failing spirituality and wrath towards your faith is not your fight, but God's. It is not your job to defend God's name.

"Believe in your heart and profess with your mouth."

Unless you are a teacher of the law (I pray not, for the teachers are judged more harshly), you hold two jobs: To trust God, and to serve as an example of that Faith.

God, being infinitely great, will bring His children home of His will. He also will be the one to defend the faith of His children. You're wasting your time defending something you cannot defend. And without your noticing, by trying to defend your faith you've likely become irritated and disheartened...searching for a way to fix the problem and prove what you know to be true. Let it go: Put the defense of the faith back into God's hands where it properly belongs.

God will prove himself to Prometheum, and everyone else who doubts, for that matter. It is not the job of those who need God in their day to day lives to try and give God to others. Ask from God for wisdom, always, and you will see the true path of your own salvation, and how to not interfere in the salvation of others.

One last thing, Bill: You show greater love towards a faithless person to let them continue in their pursuits, so that they may find the fault in their way. Telling someone with a lost heart the folly of their resentment towards God will bring only more venom. It is by self-destruction of the heart and soul that the wicked find the necessity for God's Power. After all, when the wicked man finds his victory and is still miserable, he'll finally understand that he lost long ago.

Jesus message was truth and love. To say that Jesus promoted just this doughy love would be a lie... it is both truth and love. Dont read the Bible so literal when he says He didn't bring peace but the sword theres more to it than just see I made my point.

If theres one thing we can all agree is that Truth is hard to accept and when we hear that a man who promotes love is telling us he brought the sword and not peace we have to think about would this means... It could mean his teachings will bring about Conflict but conflict doesn't have to necessarily end in bloodshed it could controversy, debate, nonviolent resistance, etc...

Stop being so superficial and really consider what the words spoken could possibly possibly mean whether the phrase sounds cryptic or straightforward.

Jesus message was truth and love. To say that Jesus promoted just this doughy love would be a lie... it is both truth and love. Dont read the Bible so literal when he says He didn't bring peace but the sword theres more to it than just see I made my point.

If theres one thing we can all agree is that Truth is hard to accept and when we hear that a man who promotes love is telling us he brought the sword and not peace we have to think about would this means... It could mean his teachings will bring about Conflict but conflict doesn't have to necessarily end in bloodshed it could controversy, debate, nonviolent resistance, etc...

Stop being so superficial and really consider what the words spoken could possibly possibly mean whether the phrase sounds cryptic or straightforward.

This.

Jesus message was truth and love. To say that Jesus promoted just this doughy love would be a lie... it is both truth and love. Dont read the Bible so literal when he says He didn't bring peace but the sword theres more to it than just see I made my point.

If theres one thing we can all agree is that Truth is hard to accept and when we hear that a man who promotes love is telling us he brought the sword and not peace we have to think about would this means... It could mean his teachings will bring about Conflict but conflict doesn't have to necessarily end in bloodshed it could controversy, debate, nonviolent resistance, etc...

Stop being so superficial and really consider what the words spoken could possibly possibly mean whether the phrase sounds cryptic or straightforward.

Actually, it sounds pretty straightforward. If you hold anything above god, than you're not worthy of god.

So, if you had to choose between your ...rare cross collection, or your daughter, the choice is very clear, if you wish to get into heaven.

Also, I would like to use the quoted response as an example of the theist mind.

theres more to it than just see I made my point.

Programmed and single-minded to the point of not being able to fully complete a sentence, due to the influences of a god. See, I just made my point.

Now my question to you is, are you listening to and rebelling against the dogma of Christianity or are you really considering what God could really mean?

If I had to choose between my daughter or the rare cross collection... LIFE is more important than material possessions. God will accept my decision and I will go to heaven for my choice and choosing in a heartbeat my daughter.

Even though whenever I hear the term "With all Due Respect" I get the feeling like the persons saying "SHUT UP Im Right!" I still have to say With All Due Respect and I mean it in respect to your beliefs and the beliefs you group yourself with...

I find that militant atheist or atheist that go out of there way to actively try and convert people to their side have largely rejected NOT God, NOT Religion but the way God and Religion have been presented to them. Something that this very literal society has taken to heart very quickly in an attempt to destroy different ways of thinking.

History Repeats Itself yet again... Back around 300 CE or whenever Christianity was legalized and after the Council of Nicea, there was a Episcopal demand for Sameness, Everyone think and does the same, in regards to theocratic submission... Now, fast forward some 1700 years and its happening yet again NOW its everyone thinks and does the same in regards to materialistic submission.

Yet we submit everyday to what people outside of us: tell us what is right, tell us what to value, tell us what we should do with our time. We will always be caught in this rote thinking as we continue to submit to the powers that be... Which might I add are always changing, to fight the powers that be would only create destruction and prolong their reign and to submit to it would be weakness and again prolong their reign because we wouldn't stand-up. Their is only one way to get rid of the powers that be... Nonviolent Resistence