Can I make a flower grow?

I once thought so; I can plant a seed, water it, keep it in the light, watch for parasites.

I started to ponder: I asked myself, can I make a seed exist? Obviously not; I can make things, but I cannot create. I need materials to work with. This thought followed with the water; I can gather it, but I cannot bring it to exist. And even more so with the sun! All I can do is stand in its presence, let alone create a star! Even the parasites that I watch so closely for cannot be willed away; I must use a mind and body that I did not create in order to fend them off.

It occurred here that I am not the beginning and the end. So I looked further into things: the seeds come from gardening supply chains, the water from the city water works, the light from the sun, the parasites from nature. The supply chains gather seeds from already existing flowers, which come from nature. The city water works gather their water from sources in nature, and then recycle it to conserve natural resources. It turned out that all the materials I use to grow a flower came from nature; including my mind and body.

Now, nature and all its laws came from the universe. And the universe, I am told, has existed eternally in one form or another. It turns out that I am but a tool. The seed, the water, the light...they all exist without me. I cannot grow a flower on my own. I cannot even exist on my own. Everything else can exist without me...but not I without it.

Well aren't you Hellenistic.

Well aren't you Hellenistic.

Hey Geist, how have you been lately? I haven't done much of the totse thing lately at all...been working, praying, meditating, paying old fines, making amends, building my life...ya know, the usual things an ex-drug user/drinker has to do to enjoy life. :)

I'm walking through life with the Tao te Ching, Bible, and the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous. It's a much smoother walk than my seven former companions could provide (alliteration to the seven deadlies...)

Tao te Ching

You know the trick is not to conceptualize it, but to "submerge" yourself in the "prereflective stage", don't you? It's a lot like reading an eastern Martin Heidegger or Henri Bergson and is really simple to grasp when you know how.

You know the trick is not to conceptualize it, but to "submerge" yourself in the "prereflective stage", don't you? It's a lot like reading an eastern Martin Heidegger or Henri Bergson and is really simple to grasp when you know how.

You grasp the Tao by letting it grasp you. :) Much the same way that you find god by letting it find you. It rules the heavens and earth and is present everywhere in between...to find it, you simply have to stop searching and see that it's always been there.

Turns out I've been walking with the Tao/God my entire life...I just wasn't aware of it before. Funny how when you search for Truth all you can see is your searching instead of the simple Truth right in front of you...this often leads to the notion that one is searching for something that cannot be found...which is in a way true: you have to admit you're lost and completely incapable of finding (thus baaing for the Shepherd) before the Shepherd will come find you. After all, why waste your time finding that which isn't lost?

Stop ass-raping the Tao. It's a subtle ontology, not a monocentric theology.

Thus, when the Way is lost there is virtue
When virtue is lost there is humaneness
When humaneness is lost there is rightness
And when rightness is lost there is propriety.
Now "propriety" is the external appearance of loyalty and sincerity
And the beginning of disorder.

(When the eternal is lost, there man thinks himself perfect,
when he finds he is not perfect, he thinks himself selfless,
when he finds he is selfish, he thinks himself moral,
when he find he is immoral, he becomes mannerly,
he appears as a gentle sheep on the outside yet inwardly is a ravenous wolf,
and here he will commit harm)

Thanks to the truth of that, however, once you admit you are broken you're finally in a position to be fixed.

And I'm not ass-raping anything...I've placed my entire trust into the TtC; if the revelations I've received as to its meaning were incorrect it would have yielded some sort of problem for me.

Why is that in order for a person to get past his own misgivings and bad deeds, it is necessary to judge the rest of mankind as harshly as one has to judge themselves in order to realize that there's a better person inside just waiting to be revealed?

I'm glad to hear you've given up drugs and drinking, but sad to learn that you've replaced those addictions with the notion that you're somehow above everyone else in terms of your strategy for living a good life.

Have I judged anyone in this thread? I've posted a bit of prose, a part of a verse of the TtC along with my understanding of it and how it has been applied in my life. So far I've done nothing but share some of my experience.

Why is that in order for a person to get past his own misgivings and bad deeds, it is necessary to judge the rest of mankind as harshly as one has to judge themselves in order to realize that there's a better person inside just waiting to be revealed?

I'm glad to hear you've given up drugs and drinking, but sad to learn that you've replaced those addictions with the notion that you're somehow above everyone else in terms of your strategy for living a good life.

*shrugs*

I didn't feel judged.

Have I judged anyone in this thread?

Actually, no - in this thread, you didn't. I posted this fresh from visiting the other thread, the one where you allege that atheists and agnostics have no reason to live in the absence of hope and faith.

I apologize for posting my initial comment in the wrong thread, but after reading that and then thinking - is he drinking? And then reading in this thread where you've given up intoxicants ... I suppose I just had to get that out there, and didn't pay really close attention to what thread I posted it in.

Also, where you reduce caring for others as ego-driven drivel... That comment just didn't make a lick of sense, and left a really unpleasant taste in my mouth. Maybe in the strictest biological sense, altruism comes naturally because it guarantees a payback in the future that serves the self - but honestly, do you really view it that way on the surface? Surely the love you give to others isn't completely fueled by an automated self-serving drive within you, is it? It sure doesn't feel that way to me. It's also peculiar how I've found myself, many times in my life, helping and caring for others who I knew would ultimately fuck me over in the end. How is that for self-centered goodwill?

Actually, no - in this thread, you didn't. I posted this fresh from visiting the other thread, the one where you allege that atheists and agnostics have no reason to live in the absence of hope and faith.

I apologize for posting my initial comment in the wrong thread, but after reading that and then thinking - is he drinking? And then reading in this thread where you've given up intoxicants ... I suppose I just had to get that out there, and didn't pay really close attention to what thread I posted it in.

Also, where you reduce caring for others as ego-driven drivel... That comment just didn't make a lick of sense, and left a really unpleasant taste in my mouth. Maybe in the strictest biological sense, altruism comes naturally because it guarantees a payback in the future that serves the self - but honestly, do you really view it that way on the surface? Surely the love you give to others isn't completely fueled by an automated self-serving drive within you, is it? It sure doesn't feel that way to me. It's also peculiar how I've found myself, many times in my life, helping and caring for others who I knew would ultimately fuck me over in the end. How is that for self-centered goodwill?

Didn't you say yourself that your purpose was to leave behind a sort of legacy? Thus don't your good deeds stem from the want to glorify your memory? Even those acts you've done that 'ultimately fucked you over' served the purpose of your ego to leave behind a legacy; you want people to remember you as selfless and caring and so on.

How then is your martyrdom not for self-edification?

I do the things I do in the hope those who see my past and my present can see the gigantic gap in behavior and attitude and ponder, 'What caused that change?'...and the hope is that they see that God caused this change.

Edit: On the other thread; I did not claim atheists and agnostics have no reason to live; they actually have the only reason to live: Hope. They're here, in Hope, trying to find something better than what they have. If they had no hope of finding better, they WOULD kill themselves. Thankfully though, God abandons nobody, including those who don't believe.

But you forget - I don't believe in an afterlife, nor do I believe that any shred of the consciousness it would take in order for me to feel glorified for the kind deeds will be around after I expire. When I'm dead, I'm dead.

The legacy I leave isn't going to benefit me, as "me" will no longer be around to reap the benefit. Anything after death, including my own legacy, isn't going to affect me one way or another. My desire to leave a pleasant memory (versus an unpleasant one) is to benefit the people whose lives I may have positively affected while I was alive.

Many of the people closest to me are theists who already feel sad and worried about my pending trip to hell. Hopefully after I've gone, they'll find little things to remember me by that will comfort them and bring them smiles, such as the kindness I may have exhibited. Anything to keep them from focusing on the imagery of my flesh burning off and them feeling sad about it.

My desire to leave a pleasant memory (versus an unpleasant one) is to benefit the people whose lives I may have positively affected while I was alive.

It's a shame when a good soul is lost to ego. Why not just attempt positive affection without a care in the world how it effects others, whether anything is left behind, and whether anyone even remembers you were the one who did it?

Why not give some 20$ tips for a cup of coffee at dive diners near the ghettos?
Why not go about a lot wiping off windshields with an ice-scraper?
Why not volunteer at homeless shelters and soup kitchens?
Why not do these things anonymously, taking absolutely no credit for yourself, even having given the credit you are aware of to something else?

Why not give some 20$ tips for a cup of coffee at dive diners near the ghettos?
Why not go about a lot wiping off windshields with an ice-scraper?
Why not volunteer at homeless shelters and soup kitchens?
Why not do these things anonymously, taking absolutely no credit for yourself, even having given the credit you are aware of to something else?

How do you know I don't do all the things you described here?

I started to ponder: I asked myself, can I make a seed exist?

No you cannot and never will be able to. Here is the fucked up thing. It MAY be possible to create life from nothing. Humans MAY be able to do it, someday.

But you are right....not you. Not people like you. You would never be so bold to pursue something like that. Things like sailing to the edge of the FLAT Earth, cloning sheep, mapping DNA, using stem cells and the like are NOT for weak willed, emotionally crippled, theist-meme-infected, nutjobs.

You Jesus humpers are MUCH too humble to attempt to figure out "God's" world. Not your place is it? Your place is to serve at his feet and grovel. Your place is to make excuses as to why you are pathetic and beg your imaginary friend for forgiveness. Your place is to feel empowered by being a pathetic worm to your fantasies.

A man pulls your strings theist, a man. Not a God. Just a lying piece of shit who works for one hour a week, doesn't pay taxes and begs you for money every Sunday morning.

You will never do anything as great as making a seed exist. None of you theists will. I promise you. Have a drink it's Christmas.

Has a disease spread across My God that causes people to produce longish rants consisting of nothing but creepy emotive language, bold font or capital letters? If so, it's already grasped 23, BrokeProphet, Hexadecimal and HellShellz. Is nobody safe?

Has a disease spread across My God that causes people to produce longish rants consisting of nothing but creepy emotive language, bold font or capital letters? If so, it's already grasped 23, BrokeProphet, Hexadecimal and HellShellz. Is nobody safe?

Certainly you are Hare-Geist...the rest of us are not fit to wash your righteous balls. Dont worry if you come off as a bit of an arrogant prick, your intentions are the best and not merely egotistical. I will now count the philosophical names you drop as you retort.

Let's see if you can count to zero.

Has a disease spread across My God that causes people to produce longish rants consisting of nothing but creepy emotive language, bold font or capital letters? If so, it's already grasped 23, BrokeProphet, Hexadecimal and HellShellz. Is nobody safe?

This is exactly why I try to side with the theists on every debate. Though I'm an atheist myself, I'd rather see true discussion than a thread full of "Lol t3h Bible is bullshit".

Let's see if you can count to zero.

Done.

This is exactly why I try to side with the theists on every debate. Though I'm an atheist myself, I'd rather see true discussion than a thread full of "Lol t3h Bible is bullshit".

I did discuss the OP and the topic I thought was at hand UNLIKE the two of you. I addressed the OP's concerns about not being able to create a seed. I simply told him why he will never do it.

I admit I did it in a very, very, very prickish way (b/c it is christmas) but it is at the very least slightly more clever than "Lol t3h Bible is bullshit" but try to talk reasonable to unreasonable people is an exercise in futility.

I did discuss the OP and the topic I thought was at hand UNLIKE the two of you. I addressed the OP's concerns about not being able to create a seed. I simply told him why he will never do it.

I admit I did it in a very, very, very prickish way (b/c it is christmas) but it is at the very least slightly more clever than "Lol t3h Bible is bullshit" but try to talk reasonable to unreasonable people is an exercise in futility.

I think the majority of this forum would agree that you are a prick on most days. Hex is a special kind of theist, like ArmsMerchant, you need to know how to refute his arguments rather than just claim he won't be able to create life (which is really not an argument anyway).

Can I make a flower grow?

I once thought so; I can plant a seed, water it, keep it in the light, watch for parasites.

I started to ponder: I asked myself, can I make a seed exist? Obviously not; I can make things, but I cannot create. I need materials to work with. This thought followed with the water; I can gather it, but I cannot bring it to exist. And even more so with the sun! All I can do is stand in its presence, let alone create a star! Even the parasites that I watch so closely for cannot be willed away; I must use a mind and body that I did not create in order to fend them off.

It occurred here that I am not the beginning and the end. So I looked further into things: the seeds come from gardening supply chains, the water from the city water works, the light from the sun, the parasites from nature. The supply chains gather seeds from already existing flowers, which come from nature. The city water works gather their water from sources in nature, and then recycle it to conserve natural resources. It turned out that all the materials I use to grow a flower came from nature; including my mind and body.

Now, nature and all its laws came from the universe. And the universe, I am told, has existed eternally in one form or another. It turns out that I am but a tool. The seed, the water, the light...they all exist without me. I cannot grow a flower on my own. I cannot even exist on my own. Everything else can exist without me...but not I without it.
Of course the solipsists would argue that the reverse might be true but who cares nobody likes them anyway.

Hex is a special kind of theist, like ArmsMerchant

And BrokeProphet is a special kind of asshole, like Snoopy. We can't very well bust his balls for speaking his mind in here, can we? If congeniality was mandatory behavior, that would be a different story.

I'm getting sick of your daoist bullshit, Hex. People keep trying to make philosophical arguments when it facts it's just a unknown involvement of semantics. Blah blah blah. Nothing philosophical here.

omgz, angryfemme. grrrRRrRRowl. How old are you now, dear lady? In your mid thirties?
I think I'm a bird, therefore "chirp."
Oh, but cannot I not exist without a chirp?
Therefore, I assume that I am not a bird. And my existence is not without a chrip.
And the existence of a bird is not without a chirp.
And I assume this is boring.

Seriously, ppl, this argument is stupid. He contradicts himself. And if you wanted to draw a thesis from it, you can't. It's a contradicted argument. Somehow, Hex, with his lack of a true education, thinks he's got a grasp of axiology and argumentation. No, mofo. You've got to do better than that.

ERNT! Illogical. Does not computer. If you're reconciling to an argument, you need to still support your main argument in the beginning.

All I can do is stand in its presence : possible thesis

- independence

Everything else can exist without me...but not I without it.

- determinism

There is no true thesis here.
It's stupid.

WHy am I on TOTSE again?
Hmm, break, I'm bored.
Angryfemme is hot. Growl.
EH.

Oh, no, what is life.
Meaning of life = fallacy. Begs the question.
*goes to sleep*

And BrokeProphet is a special kind of asshole, like Snoopy. We can't very well bust his balls for speaking his mind in here, can we? If congeniality was mandatory behavior, that would be a different story.

For all I know, HellzShellz, Hexadecimal and BrokeProphet could be the same person having some fun. In fact, based on their similar argumentative tactics, that wouldn't surprise me. Either way, I'm not complaining about them stating their opinion, but how they're stating it. I honestly find it (1) creepy, (2) annoying, and (3) making it hard for me to take them seriously. I'm already ignoring just about all of HellzShellz and Hexadecimals posts, and I'm probably going to do the same with BrokeProphet. If you're not trolling and actually have something to say which you want people to contemplate, you shouldn't present it in such a repellent manner.

For all I know, HellzShellz, Hexadecimal and BrokeProphet could be the same person having some fun. In fact, based on their similar argumentative tactics, that wouldn't surprise me. Either way, I'm not complaining about them stating their opinion, but how they're stating it. I honestly find it (1) creepy, (2) annoying, and (3) making it hard for me to take them seriously. I'm already ignoring just about all of HellzShellz and Hexadecimals posts, and I'm probably going to do the same with BrokeProphet. If you're not trolling and actually have something to say you want people to contemplate, you shouldn't present it in such a repellent manner.

I can't imagine them being the same person. Just - no way. I know some pretty elaborate hoaxes have been done on here in that same spirit, but - Hex & Shellz and BP - three distinct, separate individuals. Gotta be.

And BrokeProphet is a special kind of asshole, like Snoopy.

Now what ever happened to that guy?

Now what ever happened to that guy?

Excellent question - wish I knew! He was an absolute riot.

Has a disease spread across My God that causes people to produce longish rants consisting of nothing but creepy emotive language, bold font or capital letters? If so, it's already grasped 23, BrokeProphet, Hexadecimal and HellShellz. Is nobody safe?

Probably not. I have seen this syndrome many times, especially among metaphysical writers like Melody (who wrote several big books on crystal magick in the 80s), St Theresa of Avilla, St John of the Cross and a few others.

This happens partly because we try to express the inexpressible--words are but the language of the mind--feelings are the language of the soul.

Also, we are seeing the dark side of the Age of Aquarius come out.

Probably not. I have seen this syndrome many times, especially among metaphysical writers like Melody (who wrote several big books on crystal magick in the 80s), St Theresa of Avilla, St John of the Cross and a few others.

This happens partly because we try to express the inexpressible--words are but the language of the mind--feelings are the language of the soul.

Also, we are seeing the dark side of the Age of Aquarius come out.

Hey AM, I'm curious, did you reach your conclusions about God with the use of psychedelics?

Kamisama, continue to rest on your own understanding and let wisdom pass by if you must; recognize that you have no understanding and ask for some so that wisdom may come to you.

And I'm no special kind of theist, nshanin. I'm actually your run of the mill human being. Incapable of anything and everything - so I have to let God.

"you shouldn't present it in such a repellent manner."

It's your own ego that makes it repellent. Jesus Christ was the most offensive and repellent individual to ever exist. He laid claim to the throne of Heaven, turned the existing world upside down, spent his time with hookers, thieves, murderers, tax collectors, and all varieties of unclean peoples; and not only this, HE LOVED THEM ALL EVEN IF THEY HATED HIM. He was hated by those who clung to pride.

Now, if you know you don't know how to do a single fucking thing; the message carried through me is not repellent anymore, but just about the most attractive thing in existence (second of course, to the source of the message). Sadly though, it usually takes a long fought battle with addiction (of which all lose the fight), before someone can finally admit they really don't know how the fuck to do anything...but it's at that point that God will reveal exactly how to go about life, and provide all the materials needed to accomplish it.

Continue to try hiding from God; it can't be done. Even if you isolate yourself from all humanity to escape Fellowship, God will make his appearance through Conscience. (Ever notice how when nobody is telling you that you're fucked, you're telling yourself that you're fucked?)

You need help, we all do. You just don't want help, because it requires you to admit your failure. Continue in the path of failure; it's your comfort zone. Comfort from familiarity won't last forever; I just hope you lose comfort in your misery and let God hold you again before your deathbed; truly loving only your last few minutes of mortal life is kind of sad. Either way, I'll see you after we've both seen the Face.

I asked myself, can I make a seed exist? Obviously not; .

Why not? People make new seeds all the time through genetic engineering. DNA is a building block that can be altered. When people are finally able to completely understand DNA we will be able to make anything we want. I'm looking forward to see some interesting man-made species.

Living computers? That would be sweet. Who needs AI when you can make the real thing?

People may say "playing God isn't right." Why not? I want a fucking giraffabear. Nature played god and allowed us the ability to play god ourselves. We are nature. Anything we do is because we evolved the ability to do it and is, in some way natural.

I've found an obvious flaw in your theory...

I can create water every time I turn on the tap!... However, since it was I that installed the tap, it could not have existed without me...

I've found an obvious flaw in your theory...

I can create water every time I turn on the tap!... However, since it was I that installed the tap, it could not have existed without me...

Siwwy wabbit.

Why not? People make new seeds all the time through genetic engineering. DNA is a building block that can be altered. When people are finally able to completely understand DNA we will be able to make anything we want. I'm looking forward to see some interesting man-made species.

Living computers? That would be sweet. Who needs AI when you can make the real thing?

People may say "playing God isn't right." Why not? I want a fucking giraffabear. Nature played god and allowed us the ability to play god ourselves. We are nature. Anything we do is because we evolved the ability to do it and is, in some way natural.

Engineering DNA does not constitute making anything new. You're rearranging preexisting amino acids, nothing more. Without the CREATION of these materials, and the CREATION of your mental faculties, and the CREATION of your body, and the CREATION of logic and reason, and the CREATION of your motivation, you would be entirely unable to do anything. You can make things out of that which already exists...but all you're doing is rearranging them into a different pattern...you're not CREATING a damned thing.

Further, when you modify DNA, YOU are still not making a new object; you're rearranging the presets in something that is made of its own processes. Growth is what life does - the plant grows the seeds, the seeds grow the plants, they're nourished by the rest of nature. Sure, we can rearrange the code, but we're not creating...just modifying.

You: 0 Nature: 1

Engineering DNA does not constitute making anything new. You're rearranging preexisting amino acids, nothing more. Without the CREATION of these materials, and the CREATION of your mental faculties, and the CREATION of your body, and the CREATION of logic and reason, and the CREATION of your motivation, you would be entirely unable to do anything. You can make things out of that which already exists...but all you're doing is rearranging them into a different pattern...you're not CREATING a damned thing.

Further, when you modify DNA, YOU are still not making a new object; you're rearranging the presets in something that is made of its own processes. Growth is what life does - the plant grows the seeds, the seeds grow the plants, they're nourished by the rest of nature. Sure, we can rearrange the code, but we're not creating...just modifying.

You: 0 Nature: 1

Naw, I mean making a living thing from scratch. Not modifying anything at all.
I was kidding about the giraffabear. We already modify living things. I'm talking about way in the future when technology will be better.

So, pretty much your brain is made of matter right? At the big bang the only matter was hydrogen. If god exists the only thing he even CREATED was hydrogen.(which he didn't) Why shouldn't you be proud that a natural process was able to turn you into this?

Why shouldn't you be proud that a natural process was able to turn you into this?

I'm just speculating here, but maybe because you had nothing to do with it?

People are proud of their race. Is that wrong? Can mankind not be proud of their achievements? Just because we didn't create our own brain doesn't mean we can't be proud of what our brains are able to do.

The same argument can be used to get away with murder. "I didn't kill them, I didn't make my brain. I was born this way." Yet we still punish them. You say you weren't responsible because it was a higher power. Its bullshit.

I'll be proud of my achievements because if I do something bad I have to face consequences.

No you cannot and never will be able to. Here is the fucked up thing. It MAY be possible to create life from nothing. Humans MAY be able to do it, someday.

But you are right....not you. Not people like you. You would never be so bold to pursue something like that. Things like sailing to the edge of the FLAT Earth, cloning sheep, mapping DNA, using stem cells and the like are NOT for weak willed, emotionally crippled, theist-meme-infected, nutjobs.

You Jesus humpers are MUCH too humble to attempt to figure out "God's" world. Not your place is it? Your place is to serve at his feet and grovel. Your place is to make excuses as to why you are pathetic and beg your imaginary friend for forgiveness. Your place is to feel empowered by being a pathetic worm to your fantasies.

A man pulls your strings theist, a man. Not a God. Just a lying piece of shit who works for one hour a week, doesn't pay taxes and begs you for money every Sunday morning.

You will never do anything as great as making a seed exist. None of you theists will. I promise you. Have a drink it's Christmas.

I think I love you.

That's all I'm going to say, Quoted for mother fucking truth.

People are proud of their race. Is that wrong? Can mankind not be proud of their achievements? Just because we didn't create our own brain doesn't mean we can't be proud of what our brains are able to do.

The same argument can be used to get away with murder. "I didn't kill them, I didn't make my brain. I was born this way." Yet we still punish them. You say you weren't responsible because it was a higher power. Its bullshit.

I'll be proud of my achievements because if I do something bad I have to face consequences.

Never should one be proud of innate abilities or traits. Should I be proud that I can write with illustrative words that match Shakespeare? Fuck no, because I don't utilize it. Now, if I actually put a God given talent to use, and produce something amazing, then I CAN be justifiably proud...but fuck, I couldn't have done it without God. Maybe, just maybe, I should credit him for the Gift that enables me?

Now, if you work great ideals for your race, cool, take some satisfaction in helping to unite the people of the world...but the credit still belongs to that which created the ability to speak, think, empathize, and so on. You can't do a fucking thing without God, and that includes exist. Can you breathe without the oxygen he gave? The lungs? The body? FUCK NO. You can't do shit he don't let you do...

Never should one be proud of innate abilities or traits. Should I be proud that I can write with illustrative words that match Shakespeare? Fuck no, because I don't utilize it. Now, if I actually put a God given talent to use, and produce something amazing, then I CAN be justifiably proud...but fuck, I couldn't have done it without God. Maybe, just maybe, I should credit him for the Gift that enables me?

Now, if you work great ideals for your race, cool, take some satisfaction in helping to unite the people of the world...but the credit still belongs to that which created the ability to speak, think, empathize, and so on. You can't do a fucking thing without God, and that includes exist. Can you breathe without the oxygen he gave? The lungs? The body? FUCK NO. You can't do shit he don't let you do...

One day, I will be able to, or my descendants will be able to. You will not be able to. You will be bound by your false deities and the lies you propagate.

I wonder why all theists credit their accomplishments to an imaginary friend, but atheists actually give themselves or their teachers credit. In the same way, fascists are expected to credit the state with everything, while in free societies, people share responsibility with those who deserve it.

One day, I will be able to, or my descendants will be able to. You will not be able to. You will be bound by your false deities and the lies you propagate.

I wonder why all theists credit their accomplishments to an imaginary friend, but atheists actually give themselves or their teachers credit. In the same way, fascists are expected to credit the state with everything, while in free societies, people share responsibility with those who deserve it.

^ There's no point arguing with a creationist when they have faith. Logic goes out the window.

^ There's no point arguing with a creationist when they have faith. Logic goes out the window.

No, logic never goes out the window. Logic can't go out the windows. That's like gravity going out the window, and they know it, too. If you keep hitting them hard enough, somewhere in their mind they'll get it, and if they can't handle it, hopefully they'll kill themselves before reproducing.