Most experienced BB members dislike organic peroxides and hate AP. Some go for MEKP because it is more stable, which if I understand correctly, is because it is a liquid and thus contains no crystals, which are the source of the incredible instability in AP (aside from weak chemical bonds inherent with peroxides). Now, those of us that have yet to set up an apparatus with which to distill nitric acid and make proper primaries, tend to use organic peroxides, and, for those really short of materials, tend to use AP.
So, in the interest of the safety of such people, I was wondering what could be done to improve the stability of AP. I remember reading at one point about AP putty, but I didn't get any specifics about it. Just based on the name I would assume it is AP with some kind of binder to fill in the space between crystals to keep them from bumping and breaking, and spontaneously detonating. Is it possible to make AP "relatively safe" and still allow it to retain it's function as a primary? If so, is there a preferred binder?

You don't need conc nitric acid to make DDNP (my personal favourite primary) granted you need a nitration bath, to synthesize one of the precursors, but you don't need to have bottles of nitric acid at your disposal.

HMTD (a peroxide) is said to be less sensitive than AP by some and others say that HMTD is more sensitive but I can't say for sure as I haven't experimented too much with either of them.

There are a lot of primaries you can make that aren't peroxides and don't need conc nitric acid.

AP putty is AP dissolved in a high explosive that is soluble in acetone (depending on this particular high explosives nitrogen content).
Ap putty is indeed less friction sensitive if made correctly but it's impact sensitivity is about the same, depending on your AP: binder ratios.
Do some more researching.

Yeah, AP putty is just AP crystals held in a nitrocellulose (or often celluloid) matrix. Dissolve the NC or celluloid (some brands of ping-pong balls) in acetone, combine in your AP, try 50/50 ratio. Stick in an ignition source, then allow the acetone to evaporate and the AP putty to harden. I don't know how well it performs or if it's any safer to handle, as I don't have any first-hand experience with it to make tests.

is it possible to make AP "relatively safe" and still allow it to retain it's function as a primary? If so, is there a preferred binder?

Well, 50/50 ratio combined with ammonium nitrate is still flame sensitive--APAN, pressed in a tube is commonly used as a primary because it's less sensitive. But it's also less brisant. Still not as safe as the more exotic primaries, I'd imagine.

Y


Well, 50/50 ratio combined with ammonium nitrate is still flame sensitive--APAN, pressed in a tube is commonly used as a primary because it's less sensitive. But it's also less brisant. Still not as safe as the more exotic primaries, I'd imagine.

APAN is NOT less sensitive to impact than AP itself.

agreed ... another problem with APAN is the fact that AN has a nasty habit of sucking up water... so when the APAN gets damp sometimes you don't always get a full det but rather a splatter effect which kinda sucks balls

What about AP, AN and acetone as binder? I don't know the ratio yet, but I'm sure I could just experiment to find it. It could probably just be AP and acetone, but I think the AN would decrease sensitivity and probably add something else. (Oxygen?)

acetone as binder?

??

do you mean NC?

I'm probably mistaken, but I thought a binder was just a liquid or viscous substance that through surface tension holds an explosive powder or crystals in place.

Also, I looked up DDNP and it looks good. The problem is, I don't know where to get most of the chemicals needed for the synthesis. The one I read (megalomania) called for sodium nitrite and picramic acid, neither of which I have access to. I could probably make some picramic acid but even that's doubtful.

Both are pretty easy to make.

sodium nitrite and picramic acid, neither of which I have access to. I could probably make some picramic acid but even that's doubtful.

Maybe heat some molten lead with sodium nitrate. Pb + NaNO3 --> PbO + NaNO2, and NaNO2 is water soluble whereas the others aren't. PbO has uses too.

Well, I don't know, would that work? I've never tried it.

Very few people make their own NaNO2, but yes its somewhat like that. It is slightly more complicated, but IIRC it doesn't require anything hard to get ahold of.

While acetone could be considered a binder, it would evaporate much too fast to really be used.

I think a very important warning is necessary. Tzar had an incident where she (shut it oz-man) stored AP in NC lacquer for an extended period of time. I can't remember exactly how long. Anywho, the result was some freakishly scary big solid AP/NC crystals forming. It a nightmare situation. You want to move and dispose of the container, but the huge crystals are so freaking sensitive that you don't want to even attempt to move them. They form because AP is somewhat soluble in acetone. So some crystals will dissolve and precipitate out again on the surface of other crystals making them bigger overtime. However, If your just making a very very very thick AP/NC putty and applying it in whatever shape and letting all the acetone evaporate away and not really storing it, you should be ok.

If your going to be using AP and want some sort of putty, perhaps it would be a good idea to improve upon the normal AP/NC putty. Depending on what one wants. Personally a mold-able putty that doesn't dry out would appeal to me (If I used AP at all). Perhaps a small amount of a nitrated poly-ol sugar would be a good candidate as a binder as some of them are pretty gooey. Its been a while since I read in this area, but the nitration of sucrose results in a very sticky goo, as does the nitration of sorbitol I believe. I remember reading a lot of good information about various nitrated poly-ols at the E&W forum, so might check that out. In addition trinitroglycerin, ethyleneglycol dinitrate, and propyleneglycol dinitrate are possibilities as additives in small amounts. However, the addition of any liquid that can absorb into a fuse makes none of these suitable for use in caps. A pure cap must be used. I'm unsure of the solubility of AP in the above explosives, I would think that AP would be more souble in lighter liquid nitro explosives like NG than it would be in heavier ones like sucrose octanitrate. AP is soluble in MEKP to an extent, so it would somewhat act like acetone. However, a liquid charge of MEKP/AP can have a higher density than liquid MEKP would have alone, and a little extra punch. There is a prep somewhere on E&W I believe where acetone and MEK are used directly as a mix in the synthesis in nearly equal volumes. For putty that drys or cures, some sort of other plastic resin is a possibility. IIRC polypropylene dissolves in toluene to make a self curing resin, however I don't know how soluble AP is in toluene. Since AP is a peroxide like MEKP it would no doubt catalyse the curing of styrene resin.

Perhaps some sort of simple wheatpaste/AP? Or AP/heavy molecular weight alkane. You would lose a bit of power, and in the case of an oil a bit of sensitivity. Perhaps some sort of AP/vegatable oil? You would have to use a very small amount of oil, and it might end up around the consistency of damp fine sand, though I kinda doubt it would be very useful.

There are a lot of possibilities, but in the end: AP/blank is still AP.

ETN has been a very popular explosive as of the last couple years.

EDIT:
I wonder what AP/gorilla glue would be like.

Thats good stuff. It makes me realize I have been away from explosives for way too long.

I wonder if I can CLEP out of Putty. I didn't know there were AP courses for it.

blah blah blah blah...Perhaps a small amount of a nitrated poly-ol sugar would be a good candidate as a binder as some of them are pretty gooey. Its been a while since I read in this area, but the nitration of sucrose results in a very sticky goo, as does the nitration of sorbitol I believe. I remember reading a lot of good information about various nitrated poly-ols at the E&W forum, so might check that out....blah blah blah

sucrose octanitrate and xylitol pentanitrate are the gooey crap. sorbitol hexanitrate is a white crystalline solid, equivalent to mannitol hexanitrate.

edit: the guy above me is in no way funny.

UGH, and here I was hoping this thread was about an AP class that teaches the history of silly putty and perhaps some advanced ways to use it :mad:

Molten lead and a nitrate is too much of a pain.

How about just mix KNO3 with some charcoal and use excess nitrate like 90/10 KNO3/charcoal.

A good reference for nitrite would be that its light yellow and potassium nitrate is white.

That too is also a pain but easier

Or you could just go on eBay and buy a pound of nitrite for curing meats.

Picramic acid is brown and can be synthesized from sodium hydroxide, sulfur, and Picric acid. This is a multi step reaction.

I always got bad yields.

(I got most of this from reading either rogue sci or other sites)

KNO3/C will not work well enough to get much nitrite at all. There are a few other possible routes. Some tested, others merely theorized.

http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=5172&page=1
http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=52&page=1
IIRC the 2nd thread is much better.
*From my ultimate links collection

The NaNO3 + Pb --> NaNO2 + PbO is your best bet, The lead doesnt have to be molten, just high heated, above 100oC IIRC, i have mixed this with sulfuric to get the tell-tale blue color of HNO2, its a loooovely color.

/AV/

What worries me is lead contamination when working with picrates...

Andyboy's AP flakes.pdf

I remember those... I havn't used AP in so freaking long (not really a bad thing I guess) I remember Teknix I think it was did some tests with AP putty, and Axt has been known to use it in his younger days, though he used smokeless powder for his source of NC. I don't trust it personally. AP is way too finniky to mess with anymore. If you can manage to get your hands on some HNO3 then make mercury fulminate, even the crude stuff (before rexrystallisation with acetic acid and ammonia hydroxide) is safer than AP and was used commercially for many years. Pretty easy synth too. I go by this one:

http://www.powerlabs.org/chemlabs/fulminate.htm

A lot of good suggestions for primaries, unfortunately, the only acid I can get is muriatic, and dilute muriatic at that. Also, I wouldn't have the slightest idea where I would get mercury or lead, aside from thermometers and old paint, but I'd prefer to avoid the both of them. Also, someone mentioned MEKP, and I was wondering just how stable it is. If I am not mistaken, it is made the same was as AP, only MEK is substituted for Acetone, then the MEKP is siphoned off the top of the solution. My issue with the concept of a NonPolar primary is that there's no safe way to store it, unlike AP which can be kept wet and be safer than sand.

All peroxides have relatively the same sensitivity; extreme.

...unlike AP which can be kept wet and be safer than sand.

No. Just no.

MEKP is a fair bit safer because it is a liquid and hence its molecules can slide around eachother whereas AP grinds as it has a crystalline structure. Even so it is still a primary explosice, worse an organic peroxide, so the utmost care is still required.

I've set off over 200ml of MEKP with a large flash cracker (KMnO4/Mg/S flash, very volatile), and I was very impressed with the power it had.

MEKP is still impact sensitive, but can be stored fairly easily in a glass jar with some glad wrap and a rubber band over the top. It stinks like fucking arse though so don't synth/store it in your mums good fridge!

Hg can be found in old house thermostats and under the hoods of old cars in the hood light housing. They are both used for tilt switches. It will be in a metal pill looking thing behind the light. I got my Hg from cars hoods, I just dont use it for anything.

If you cant get a hold of lead your either 2 years old or a retard. Bullets, pellets, wheel weights, sinkers, battery cables, solder, old nails, etc. Its not that bad to handle compared to Hg, just wash your hands. If you try and get it from paint you might as well find some old gas and see if you can get it from there too.

fuck AP in general half my accidents back in the day were because of AP. just drop the money and work with Ag2C2.AgNO3

fuck AP in general half my accidents back in the day were because of AP. just drop the money and work with Ag2C2.AgNO3

From what I've heard Double salt is a colossal primary, with mid to high cost effectiveness and medium to low safety, in relation to other DIY primaries.

I can't remember but is double salt decomposed by H2O like silver acetylide?

Many silver compounds decompose or are altered to some degree by light energy. I'm fairly sure pure silver acetylide is one, so I see no reason why its double salt with silver nitrate should be any different

Many silver compounds decompose or are altered to some degree by light energy. I'm fairly sure pure silver acetylide is one, so I see no reason why its double salt with silver nitrate should be any different

Well, yeah, my Ag2C2.AgNO3 precipitated out white, then turned grey presumably from light exposure. Single crystals DDT, it's a good primary, I can't get anymore silver nitrate though, so peroxides it is once again, eh.

I had forgotten how pretty AP is when it's forming and how good it smells when filtering.

I don't know if anybody else's AP does this, because I make mine with a really ghettofied procedure, but after I mix the ingredients, I let it sit for a week, picking it up and stirring every 12 hours or so. Every time I pick it up the AP bubbles a little and some of it floats to the top with the bubbles. It does this less and less each time I do it, and at the end of the weak, it doesn't do it at all. What is this bubbling?

I don't know if anybody else's AP does this, because I make mine with a really ghettofied procedure, but after I mix the ingredients, I let it sit for a week, picking it up and stirring every 12 hours or so. Every time I pick it up the AP bubbles a little and some of it floats to the top with the bubbles. It does this less and less each time I do it, and at the end of the weak, it doesn't do it at all. What is this bubbling?

It's decomposing. MEKP does the same in the presence of H2O2.

I don't know how well it performs or if it's any safer to handle, as I don't have any first-hand experience with it to make tests.

Well, the stuff is pretty damn brissant. I shattered one of those "indestructible" Rubbermade trash cans with just a 2L soda bottle cap full of the stuff, with a small black powder charge as an initiator. The powder charge itself would have been barely enough to make the can wiggle.

It's not, actually, terrifically fuse sensitive. This may or may not be a good thing, depending on your viewpoint. But I had more of a 25/75 ratio and never tried 50/50 (heavy on the nitrocellulose, in my case).

Lighting it with bare fuse, a significant amount of it burns before the rest detonates. I've had amounts together that looked significant to me but were small enough that all they did was go "foof" and burn away...

Well, yeah, my Ag2C2.AgNO3 precipitated out white, then turned grey presumably from light exposure. Single crystals DDT, it's a good primary, I can't get anymore silver nitrate though, so peroxides it is once again, eh.

why not try TACC or DDNP instead of peroxides.

What is the safest and most storeable primary explosive?

I've experimented quite a bit with different AP mixtures. My favourite is AP acrylic. It's made just like APNC, dissolved in acetone, but it dries hard and clear. I mold a blob directly around the igniter for a simple little blasting cap. Polycarbonate works too, but turns out bubbly like NC, but without contributing to the explosion. I love polypropylene for its durability and chemical resistance, but I haven't found a good solvent yet.

AP mixed with modelling clay forms a nice non drying putty mixture, though it's fairly weak. The mass of the clay absorbs most of the shock. Clay can be used to make extremely simple shape charges though. Simply make a dent in a blob, fill the hole with AP and an igniter, and stick to something. It works great on glass. I could shatter bottles with less than .1g of AP.

Big AP crystals are nowhere near as sensitive as people suspect them to be. I was able to cleave 5mm blocks into smaller ones without a detonation. But the really neat part is the flame test. 3" blue and yellow flames shoot out of each facet, burning the crystal in several seconds. Only one exploded after lighting. I of course took all proper safety measures when handling, assuming it would detonate at any time. I have a video of it somewhere. I'll upload it when I get a chance.

Here's my best safety advice for AP: never make more than 10 grams at a time, and if you're messing around with it like me, handle it as if it were to fully detonate at any time. Many of my experiments have failed explosively, but no harm was done because I used tiny amounts, and was expecting it.

Once I finish my research with exploding bridgewires, I can cut out sensitive primaries completely. That's the safest approach.

why not try TACC or DDNP instead of peroxides.

What is the safest and most storeable primary explosive?

When I first read about it, DDNP seemed the the dream primary. Insensitive to both friction and shock, sensitive to flame, and able to DDT in 600mg amounts.

Apparently, though, nobody seems to be able to make it properly.

When I first read about it, DDNP seemed the the dream primary. Insensitive to both friction and shock, sensitive to flame, and able to DDT in 600mg amounts.

Apparently, though, nobody seems to be able to make it properly.

there is a better DIY synthesis out there but the following one is pretty good,

http://www.securityvoid.com/Highexplosivespictorials/ddnp.html

People asking about "AP putty" -WILL- kill themselves fucking with mercury fulminate.