We have no need for one really.

and even if their was one that was seperate from reality why the hell would he want our worship or give a shit what we do?

We have no need for one really.

Some people do, some people don't

Why do people debate the existence of God?


It's a matter of mindset, really. You, being an athiest (I'm assuming) cannot understand what drives a religious person to be religious. That's understandable. However, and equally understandably, a religious person cannot understand what drives an athiest to be an athiest. It's this inability to understand that fuels 'The God Debate'. Also, debating over 'God' provides stimulating intellectual conversation :)

I have a friend who's brother was a crack addict, and eventually was jailed for stealing from a toys R us so he could make crack money... Now he's out and he's 'finding' god, and he's been clean since he starting his search. I wouldn't say that's very bad at all, of course once he's preaching to my friend, we'll wish he was downtown homeless and begging for crack money again...

"It's a matter of mindset, really. You, being an athiest (I'm assuming) cannot understand what drives a religious person to be religious. That's understandable. However, and equally understandably, a religious person cannot understand what drives an athiest to be an athiest. It's this inability to understand that fuels 'The God Debate'. Also, debating over 'God' provides stimulating intellectual conversation"

Seeing as how many atheists were at one time religious, I don't think that's a valid argument.

There really is no debate. Religious people talk nonsense, atheists merely point this out.

Seeing as how many atheists were at one time religious, I don't think that's a valid argument.


I'm talking about the theists and athiests who debate. You're right, many athiests were once religious, however the majority of athiests who debate against religion were never religious. If they were, they were religious at a young age. What I said made sense, because your preceeding statment basically encapsulates what I'm articulating:

Religious people talk nonsense, atheists merely point this out.

Again, a matter of opinion.

There really is no debate. Religious people talk nonsense, atheists merely point this out.

I hate it when people try to make life better for everyone. Then the organized Church takes advantage of them.

religion good
organized religion bad

Actually, im not an atheist.

I'm grounded in the CWG material and I practice yoga and spiritual stuff like that.

So I do believe in the existence of God, but one that is reality itself. I just don't believe we need a God that is seperate from it.

I do believe in the existence of God, but one that is reality itself.


So, basically, you're a pantheist?

So, basically, you're a pantheist?

yep

5char

We have no need for one really.

and even if their was one that was seperate from reality why the hell would he want our worship or give a shit what we do?

Speak for yourself. Without the direct aid and presence of God in my life, I self-destruct with prostitution, drugs, and violence. I am completely and utterly incapable of behaving like I want, so I have to rely on Mercy and Grace to prevent me from entering into narcissistic psychosis.

Speak for yourself. Without the direct aid and presence of God in my life, I self-destruct with prostitution, drugs, and violence. I am completely and utterly incapable of behaving like I want, so I have to rely on Mercy and Grace to prevent me from entering into narcissistic psychosis.

Hehehe.

Reasons why I believe people are willing to believe a completely ridiculous concept is absolute fact:

-Some people cannot handle the concept of existence having no rhyme or reason, and need the idea of God to keep their hold on sanity.

-People LOVE to have that "Chosen People" mentality. They absolutely relish the thought that they are completely superior to other people. Christians almost literally get off on telling themselves they're bound for heaven, and everybody from their least favorite politician to that guy who cut them off on the highway is going to hell.

-People love to think they're part of something important, or making a difference in the world. Really, they aren't doing shit, it's just a guy at a pulpit screaming that they are, so they'll donate more.

It's a matter of mindset, really. You, being an athiest (I'm assuming) cannot understand what drives a religious person to be religious. That's understandable. However, and equally understandably, a religious person cannot understand what drives an athiest to be an athiest. It's this inability to understand that fuels 'The God Debate'. Also, debating over 'God' provides stimulating intellectual conversation :)

Asmodeuss; I was an atheist. I'm well aware of what drove atheism in myself, and I've yet to see any other reason for its existence. I get plenty of shit for this already, so I'll go ahead and repeat it: Pride.

The atheist cannot even begin to believe in a concept of God, not because the notion is absurd, but because he believes himself to be a knowledgeable and fully capable person who has found the amazing ability to live a life devoid of Faith - he thinks he needs no God as he is already playing that role. He believes himself to be able to carry his own weight with assurance, despite his primary crutch in life being the attempt to tear down the faith of others.

I assure you, not a single atheist has asked a question of a theist on the God issue without one of two hopes: Trapping the theist in a contradiction with which to bash over their head, or secondarily, mocking their faithfulness. Atheists, essentially, are older versions of schoolyard bullies that try to pick on other kids to make themselves feel better about having a shitty life.

How do I know this? That's all I ever did as an atheist, and every other atheist I knew, without a single exception, behaved in the same manner. They're not here to discuss and learn about different conceptions of God, they're here trying to destroy God so they don't have to hear an inconvenient Truth that is wholly capable of shattering their narcissistic delusion. After all, who likes to admit they're wrong?

As is often said, misery loves company.

Rocko, I would retort that I'm less sane than ever by the standards of the medical profession. I believe myself to hear the Voice. I've stood in the Presence. I've seen the Vision.

You can judge me as incapable of handling reality, and I would agree. However, I would pass that same judgment upon you if the answer to this is yes:

Have you ever lied to avoid a consequence?

The difference between my inability to handle reality, and the atheist's inability, is that I no longer rely on the human device of manipulation to avoid unfavorable situations. Today, walking hand in hand with God, I am able to face the most chaotic of situations with confidence and courage that after it's said and done, my faith will be stronger, and I will be more capable of sharing the Message. I welcome disaster today; it continues to prove that in my life, Faith is Truth.

Show me an alcoholic, multiple drug addicted, sex addicted, compulsive liar that has stopped drinking, using drugs, sleeping around, and lying WITHOUT the aid of God, and is able to LAUGH GENUINELY at his past failures and SHARE THE SOLUTION WITH JOY, and I will concede that God is a delusion.

Yes, I was able to stop without God's direct help...but I was more miserable than when I was doing these things. Let's see if an atheist can give up every one of their coping skills and still smile. I sure as hell couldn't.

Ah, the irony.

He talks about pride, yet he's the one who believes he's figured out why every atheist in the world is an atheist, how they behave and why. I've never in my life claimed to know how all theists behave, or why they are theists in the first place.

Of course, according to his logic the fact that I disagree with his ridiculous characterization, must mean that I'm a bully, mocking his faithfulness!

Anyone can make ridiculous accusations. Here's one mimicking yours: All theists believe in a god because they need a crutch to help them get through life, and are willing to delude themselves to get through with life. There. Same unsubstantiated bullshit. Same absurd accusations. Same self-righteous tone. The difference? I don't actually believe any of that. I'm not so ignorant and/or conceited to think I've figured out countless of people across the world. You do. Ironic.

Belief in God is in fact a Crutch. The thing is, God is the one Crutch that helps a human live a decent life rather than merely distracting them from their problems. All other crutches we use are to distract us from the Solution; Faith is meant to give us the Resolve and Courage to work through our problems. Continue to see it as weakness if you wish, but I have no qualms with being needy. With God, my needs get taken care of to Perfection. With pride and the delusion of being 'logical' and 'right', all I had was a temporary distraction from misery that perpetuated and magnified the problem.

Here are some of the manifestations of pride: fear, anger, argument, fault-finding, dishonesty, manipulation, desire, etc. You're quite defensive, in spite of my own admission of pride, and you even claim irony even though I wholly admit my pride. You're simply using argumentative fault-finding to mask your fear. I already admitted my fault of being proud...you're just pointing mine out again to ignore your own faults.

Rust, I've been shown that I am built the same way you are. My pride manifests the same way that anyone else's pride does. When your behavior matches those I've already taken part in, I can discern the motivation behind it because we are of the same Make and Model (differing Years, likely ;)).

This is possible only because of Wisdom (the application of Understanding to life). Wisdom and Understanding, paradoxically, happen to be two things I have no possession of. By Grace, I am allowed to borrow portions of these qualities in order to follow the Way that cannot be followed.

Call it pride if you wish, but it is by Experience alone.

You only "admit" your pride in an attempt to peddle your bullshit further; your way of trying to get the high road by supposedly admitting your faults. But you conveniently do nothing to change them. You keep making the same unsupported accusations, you keep acting as you know what atheists think, what they feel, why they are atheists to begin with, when in reality you have no clue. Your "experience"does not equal knowledge of what another human being believes.

If anyone finds fault with what you say, it means they have fear? If anyone disagrees it means they are a bully here to mock you? Thank you for making it obvious how unreasonable you are; you're alienating your own beliefs like a champ.

You only "admit" your pride in an attempt to peddle your bullshit further; your way of trying to get the high road by supposedly admitting your faults. But you conveniently do nothing to change them. You keep making the same unsupported accusations, you keep acting as you know what atheists think, what they feel, why they are atheists to begin with, when in reality you have no clue. Your "experience"does not equal knowledge of what another human being believes.

If anyone finds fault with what you say, it means they have fear? If anyone disagrees it means they are a bully here to mock you? Thank you for making it obvious how unreasonable you are; you're alienating your own beliefs like a champ.

Rust, I don't give a shit if anyone believes me or thinks my 'accusation' is supported. (Calling someone proud is like calling black, well, black. Not quite an accusation, more a recognition of reality.) I pray for help because I need it, and if I wish to hold on to it, I have to tell people about having received it. God doesn't need me, I need God...It's Perfect and Complete whether or not I accept the Will. However, I crumble and am a blackened void if I don't accept the Will.

God helps me rely upon Him because I can't rely upon myself. This is what is done about my pride. It is now a remnant of my psychosis that is slowly being removed...it is no longer the focus.

You could easily find fault or disagree with me and not show pride...but you'd simply have stated that what I'm saying 'Isn't right for you.' or something along those lines. You didn't just do that though, because you had to 'discredit' me and seek out the ideas of mine that are opposing yours and find them 'absurd' in order to protect your pride.

As for my faults: I am changing nothing, it is Revivification. By Grace, I have been raised from the walking dead.

Woah, woah, woah. Where do I begin?

I assure you, not a single atheist has asked a question of a theist on the God issue without one of two hopes: Trapping the theist in a contradiction with which to bash over their head, or secondarily, mocking their faithfulness.

I'm afraid that's simply not true. I, an athiest, have a vehement intrest in religion, specifically Christianity. Now, as a result of my intrest with religion, I ask questions. The purpose of my questions is not to ridicule/mock/bash, but to learn and to have an actual debate with religious people. This proves your 'assurance' to be incorrect. It's really quite unfair to write off athiests as bullies, because I could shit right back in your face withthe earlier actions of Christianity. Oh yeah, you'll find some real bullying there. Think about what happened to the Vikings or think about the Inquisition. Do I think all Christians are bullies? No...

Atheists, essentially, are older versions of schoolyard bullies that try to pick on other kids to make themselves feel better about having a shitty life.


That's quite a feircly opinionated statement!

True, there are some who act in such a manner, but again, it's not fair to attempt to put a label on an entire classification of people. Prejudice is not a legitimate argument.


How do I know this? That's all I ever did as an atheist, and every other atheist I knew, without a single exception, behaved in the same manner.

I suggest you associate yourself with nicer people if what you say is true... And saying:

'Athiests are bullies because I bullied when I was an athiest. Oh yeah, all my friends bullied, too'


Is not a very strong argument.

They're (athiests) not here to discuss and learn about different conceptions of God


!?

Blind assumption.


they're (athiests) here trying to destroy God


Nope. Choosing not to follow a religion is not the same as trying to destroy a 'God'. That's all athiesm is: choosing not to be bound to a religion. You don't seem to have a grasp on this concept.

so they don't have to hear an inconvenient Truth that is wholly capable of shattering their narcissistic delusion.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u231/cheezeguy/n725075089_288918_2774.jpg

As is often said, misery loves company.

Ah... Perhaps that's why religion is so widley accepted and followed.

The atheist cannot even begin to believe in a concept of God, not because the notion is absurd, but because he believes himself to be a knowledgeable and fully capable person who has found the amazing ability to live a life devoid of Faith - he thinks he needs no God as he is already playing that role. He believes himself to be able to carry his own weight with assurance, despite his primary crutch in life being the attempt to tear down the faith of others.

Let me be the first atheist to pipe in and refute this gross assumption:

My walk without God is not me attempting to play God. If I believed such a power were even possible, I assure you - I wouldn't be just mimicking it, I'd be practicing it in earnest, giving credit where credit was due. Believing in one's own sensibilities isn't a blatant, conceited head trip that exalts a person into having supernatural prowess over their own mindset - it's paying homage to the important (yet elementary) discovery of: Hey! I have choices to make, choices that are going to affect not only myself, but the people around me! What to do? What to do? ... and finding that the answers, which may seem arbitrary to one person, but will ultimately affect a chain of events further down the road for me personally, are all right there, totally available but maybe not totally obvious at the very split second this decision-making process is going on. Hoping against hope that I make the right choice will involve a shitload of self-contemplation and sometimes even a knee-jerk reaction that I can only hope has the best outcome.

To me, the success of such a decision-making process lies in the ability one has to reach certain conclusions without relying on anyone or anything (besides our own subjective experiences) to put it into place for us. Discovering that they have it in themselves all along - not as gift from on High, not as a magical ingredient sprinkled in that offers the chance of redemption, but as a natural faculty in our brains (namely, learning from experience) that gives EVERYONE the chance, not just the spiritual folks, of making a positive impact on the Universe.


I assure you, not a single atheist has asked a question of a theist on the God issue without one of two hopes: Trapping the theist in a contradiction with which to bash over their head, or secondarily, mocking their faithfulness. Atheists, essentially, are older versions of schoolyard bullies that try to pick on other kids to make themselves feel better about having a shitty life.

That's so untrue, and such a gross generalization, that I can barely find it in me to refute such nonsense. You forget that perhaps the atheist isn't questioning the theist just to mock, belittle or bully their way into their lifestyle. Maybe there are some of us who are just seizing the opportunity to share our own success stories with How To Cope with the curve-balls life tends to throw our way, and are offering up alternative solutions that just so happen to contradict with your own How To Cope remedies that tend to rely on a God Model to work effectively. Remember, our brand of Coping doesn't require that we get as many people as possible to join the fold, it doesn't require that we usurp the human ability to deal with certain crises and succumb to the law of the Heavens, and it sure as hell doesn't require that we assume right off the bat that those who don't believe like us are living a shitty, half-assed existence that isn't worthy of respect or validation. The assertions you make in regards to an atheist lifestyle point to those very requirements your faith demands of you. Could you possibly be projecting those unsavory tendencies onto the atheist as well, in order to paint them as undesirables, unworthy of having any voice in any discussions concerning the plight of mankind and his place in this Universe? Because that's what it sure seems like...

How do I know this? That's all I ever did as an atheist, and every other atheist I knew, without a single exception, behaved in the same manner. They're not here to discuss and learn about different conceptions of God, they're here trying to destroy God so they don't have to hear an inconvenient Truth that is wholly capable of shattering their narcissistic delusion. After all, who likes to admit they're wrong?

As is often said, misery loves company.

That might have been what YOU practiced as an atheist, but again, why assume that everyone has the same intentions you did? Secondly, how could you even venture a guess as to the true intentions of everyone around you? How can you be so bold (and ornery) to assert that without exception, every single atheist holds those same mannerisms?

You fail to mention that there are many, many atheists who have already walked with God, who still find interest in the historical and cultural influences of God, and who don't automatically label their peers who hold faith as disillusioned pious puppets? You forget that many of us have families we love and respect very much, family that are more like you than like us, who we don't mock, ridicule or feel superior to. What you're failing to recognize, Hex - and what your religion requires of you to shield your eyes from - is that the only fundamental differences between the atheist and the theist is the coping mechanisms used to get by in life. Other than that, we are exactly the same.

You may call my mindset a narcissistic delusion, and I might call yours a fairy-tale delusion - but either of us admitting our wrongs will not make a right. It's just simply a comparison of our respective mindsets, and what we both hold as being self-evident, true and effective in terms of our lifestyles. We can (and should) discuss our methods of understanding, because that makes for fine discourse and offers our undecided peers a glimpse into the perspectives we hold tight to that have been successful for us on a personal level. That isn't misery begging for company, or holy righteousness trumping indecisiveness. It's simply sharing. How in the world can you label our intent of sharing what we find to be successful any less intrusive than your own?!

Rust, I don't give a shit if anyone believes me or thinks my 'accusation' is supported. (Calling someone proud is like calling black, well, black. Not quite an accusation, more a recognition of reality.)

That's not the accusation I was talking about, but nice try. It's the never-ending unsubstantiated assumptions you keep making up. Once again:

You do not know why all atheists are atheists.

You do not know why all atheists post here.

You do know know if all atheists fear, or rwhat they fear if they do.

It's a long list of bullshit, I can keep going if you want. I rather not, because my fingers are tired.



You could easily find fault or disagree with me and not show pride...but you'd simply have stated that what I'm saying 'Isn't right for you.' or something along those lines. You didn't just do that though, because you had to 'discredit' me and seek out the ideas of mine that are opposing yours and find them 'absurd' in order to protect your pride.

It's because they are absurd, and because you discredit yourself that I am able to find fault in what you say. Don't blame me for you stating ridiculous things. You make it easy. Pride doesn't enter this, simple reading in the English language does.

i think there are several reasons. some people use religion like a drug.(they have many similarities). so use religion because they think it's the answer to that universal spirituality they feel. others are just gullible dummies.

i don't take religious folk seriously.

What does it matter to you if my words are faulty? If they are not correct, will not others be able to see the fault without you having to point it out?

Ah, Truth shines again: You think others incapable of seeing reality, so you feel obliged to guide them around absurdities because they might accidentally believe someone so gravely wrong as I!

Rust, you think pride doesn't enter into it...there is nothing a human being does in this entire world that is not accompanied by pride. You wouldn't even try to disprove me if you didn't somehow think yourself superior or more capable than not only myself, but those who may read what I've written.

You try to give others understanding because you believe yourself to be more understanding than another: for this very reason, you have none. God won't give you what you think you already have.

Rust, you think pride doesn't enter into it...there is nothing a human being does in this entire world that is not accompanied by pride. You wouldn't even try to disprove me if you didn't somehow think yourself superior or more capable than not only myself, but those who may read what I've written.

I've already explained this to you: that I disagree with your bullshit does not, in any way, shape or form, mean that I must be superior to you or inferior to you. It especially says absolutely nothing (not even that a disagree with them) of the people that are reading what you have written, because I don't know who they are or what they believe.

You know nothing of what I believe, what I think, and you cannot deduce it with any certainty by making those ridiculous assumptions.


You try to give others understanding because you believe yourself to be more understanding than another: for this very reason, you have none. God won't give you what you think you already have.

Are you not trying to 'give me 'understanding because you believe yourself to be more understanding than myself (about whether or not everything we do is done with pride for example)'?


P.S. People are waiting for a response in this thread:

http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2084291

Rust, I'm pretty sure Hexadecimal is trolling. He never used to be this repulsively full of horseshit.

I'm typing my experience, hitting post, moving to the next thread, coming back the next day to see if any new ideas have popped up.

Rust, as I've said, I don't give a shit if you contend what I say or believe what I say. I say what I've been shown, and leave it there. Atheism is rooted in absolute pride. This was the truth in my atheism, and the truth I've seen in every other atheist there is: they reject an ideal, not by it having failed for them, but by it not working into their picture of existence. They trust their understanding of their experience more than their experience, believing themselves to have understanding when all they have is experience. Rust: You did not come here by self, you will not stay here by self, you will not leave here by self, you will not understand by self, you will not know by self, you will not overcome by self, you will not find joy by self, you will find absolutely nothing and keep absolutely nothing by self except for hellish misery. This is not an understanding of experience, this is Experience. You ask for proof of a God, failing to take a look at the entirety of your life. If you were able to see even one strand of God in your life, from birth to now, you would believe...but you think there is no reason to, because you rely upon your understanding rather than your experience. You 'understand' me to be full of shit, even though you've experienced every single moment of your life this very God I speak of. You rely upon your self (that being your 'understanding' of reality) rather than your experience (that being reality); THIS IS PRIDE.

Yeah yeah...I'm full of shit though and I have no evidence...sit upon your understanding some more and miss the Experience.

Atheism is rooted in absolute pride. This was the truth in my atheism, and the truth I've seen in every other atheist there is: they reject an ideal, not by it having failed for them, but by it not working into their picture of existence. They trust their understanding of their experience more than their experience, believing themselves to have understanding when all they have is experience.

Nope, your full of shit.

What have you that so solidifies your belief? Is it experience? The understanding and reflection of that experience?

You seem to be saying that athiests are faulty for trusting their understanding of the experience rather than the experience itself. If you believe you are above reflecting upon your personal experience for greater understanding, then you have fooled yourself more than most theists are required to. This whole concept, by the way, is deeply rooted in pride. Glass houses, my friend, read your book.

Rust, as I've said, I don't give a shit if you contend what I say or believe what I say.

Did I say otherwise? I said that me disagreeing with you does not mean I think I'm superior to you, much less to the people reading what you write, contrary to your erroneous accusation.

If Einstein were alive, and he said to me, "Rust, the color red is ugly" and I disagreed with him, does that mean I believe myself to be superior to him? Not in the least. It was a ridiculous accusation on your part. Period. Ignoring it is not going to change that, though it will be somewhat entertaining.



This was the truth in my atheism, and the truth I've seen in every other atheist there is: they reject an ideal, not by it having failed for them, but by it not working into their picture of existence. They trust their understanding of their experience more than their experience, believing themselves to have understanding when all they have is experience. Rust: You did not come here by self, you will not stay here by self, you will not leave here by self, you will not understand by self, you will not know by self, you will not overcome by self, you will not find joy by self, you will find absolutely nothing and keep absolutely nothing by self except for hellish misery. This is not an understanding of experience, this is Experience. You ask for proof of a God, failing to take a look at the entirety of your life. If you were able to see even one strand of God in your life, from birth to now, you would believe...but you think there is no reason to, because you rely upon your understanding rather than your experience. You 'understand' me to be full of shit, even though you've experienced every single moment of your life this very God I speak of. You rely upon your self (that being your 'understanding' of reality) rather than your experience (that being reality); THIS IS PRIDE.

Yeah yeah...I'm full of shit though and I have no evidence...sit upon your understanding some more and miss the Experience.

Until you can support any of this nonsense you keep repeating...

http://www.wii60.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/yawn.jpg


--

Are you going to reply to your own thread? We're still waiting. (http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2084291)

Rust, I'm pretty sure Hexadecimal is trolling. He never used to be this repulsively full of horseshit.

Well, he has been full of shit since as far as I can remember. He may have just perfected the art, though...

C'mon now, why did nobody hit him with the obvious? he claims that god is his crutch that keeps him from being a parasite clinging to the ass of life, but look at all the other matching scumbags that believe but still have those habits god raised him above? odds are that the preacher of his megachurch fits cleanly into the posision.

The claim about atheists at least partially applies to me. I like making christians look stupid because christianity made me feel stupid, and getting around that cured the disease. I take pride in it because I am good at it and because I hate talking to stupid people. I may cure a few.

By the way what is with the pretentious writing style? it made me laugh.