Hey everyone... I'm a happy agnostic, used to hang about on this forum some time ago, eventually got fed up of the same arguments doing the rounds. I recently came accross this chap VenomfangX on youtube though, and his arrogance pissed me off to new extremes. One of his series of videos is based on proving the age of the Earth to be well below 10,000 years. He doesn't address one issue though, and that's one i'd like to address now. I'm going to lead my argument with the answers that CREATIONISTS give me. My first question is this:

HOW BIG IS THE UNIVERSE?

Post your answers below, use whatever sources you like; the more the merrier. I will accept any answers that have a source posted, which I personally cannot irrefutably disprove beyond reasonable doubt. Give your answers in any units convenient to you; metres, parsecs, light years, miles... whatever suits you.

I'll check back for answers tomorrow, and post my follow up question, for which if an answer is provided, I'll post a picture of me drinking my own piss.

The universe is as big as it needs to be!

Nobody really knows. All we know is the observable universe and that is dependant on the speed of light.

You will not find many admitted young earthers on here. They cry when we talk to them.

What about objects in space that are millions of light years from Earth?

Zackly. Objects millions of light years away take millions of years to be seen. The end. Can any young earther argue with that?

A young earth believer might say something like "That is a trick of the devil, along with planted fossil remains, Elvis Presly's gyrating hips, Harry Potter, vaginas, and democrats".

Seriously, xtains cannot argue science. The only thing that can argue science is better science.

The exact nature of the Cosmos appears in the Vedas, but it is the Srimad Bhagavatam that elaborates it all in detail. Here is a condensed account:

1) The Universe is shaped like an Egg. In this egg, there are 14 planets that have intelligent life. The 8th of these is Bhu Loka, ie, Earth. 'Heaven' is the 10th planet, Svarga. This Universe is controlled by the Demi-God who resides in the 14th planet (Satya-Loka), ie, Brahma.

The Vishnu Sahasranama points out that the Universe is expanding and Lord Vishnu, the Supreme being, is the expanse on which it expands.

So, 'Heaven' is not a place of liberation. It is just one planet like ours. The true place of liberation is Sri Vaikuntha, the Abode of Vishnu, which is beyond the cosmic egg.

2) This is not a unique Universe. There are millions or even billions of such 'Cosmic Eggs', each with 14 Planets and with their own Brahma (Creator) and Shiva (Destroyer).

3) Out of the 14 planets, 7 are hellish planets, and the inhabitants are the race of the Asuras, the demons. They are ignorant, wicked and have made their planets very difficult to live.

These hellish planets are called Patala, Talatal, Rasatala, Bitala, Mahatala, Atala, Bhutala.

The remaining 7 are planets with more intelligent life, such as ourselves, the Devas, Gandharvas, Brahma, etc. These planets are Bhu (Earth), Bhuva (Air), Svarga (Planet of the Devas;Heaven), Maharloka (Rishis), Janaloka & Tapaloka (Planets of penance), Satyaloka (abode of Brahma, the creator).

After death, you go to the good or bad planets, but once you live out your Karma there, you are born on Earth again. Salvation occurs only when you cross the Cosmic Ocean and the Viraja River (located beyond the Universes), to reach the abode of Vishnu.

4) Lastly, the Vedas say that the core particles of the Universe are vibrating constantly. The very fabric of the Universe vibrates, and produces a mystical sound 'OM' (Aum). Thus, OM is the vibration of the Cosmos.

This is in accordance with String Theory, which says that all matter is composed of vibrating strings.

Now, I shall explain the creation of the Universe according to Sanatana Dharma.

Hindu Cosmology envisions that the Universe(s) undergo a continuous process of Creation, Preservation and Dissolution. The Law of Conservation of Energy states that Energy cannot be created or destroyed, but can be transformed. Sanatana Dharma maintains that a portion of Lord Vishnu's inexhaustible energy is transformed into these Universes.

There are millions of Bubbles floating on the Hoods of Adi Sesha, the Serpent Bed of the Supreme Lord Vishnu. Each Bubble is a 'Cosmic Egg' with 14 Planets. Thus, Hindu Cosmology talks of vast and infinite multiverses.

The size of each bubble is like a mustard seed, as compared with the Majesty of the Supreme Lord Sriman Narayana (Vishnu).

Consider just one of these Universes for now. During the time of Creation, the Lord reclines majestically on Adi Sesha, His serpent bed, deep in mystic sleep. The first emanations from the breathing of Lord Maha-Vishnu are the personified Vedas who serve Him by waking Him from His mystic sleep.

The Supreme Being in His feature as Maha-Vishnu impregnates the material nature by His glance. Once the material elements have been manifested, and the full potential for creating the universes has been established, the innumerable universes begin to emanate from the pores of the body of Maha-Vishnu, and from His exhalations. They appear just like atomic particles that float in sunshine and pass through a screen. When Maha-Vishnu inhales at the time of the universal annihilation, they return to His body. In this way, Maha-Vishnu is the Supersoul of all the universes.

Once all of the universes are created, which are unlimited, Maha-Vishnu expands Himself into unlimited forms and enters each universe.

Lord Vishnu will now give life to a demi-god named Brahma, who creates. Brahma will appear from the belly-button of Vishnu on a Lotus. The opening of the Lotus to reveal Brahma is synonymous with the Big Bang.

After millions and millions of years of pondering, Brahma shapes the matter of the Universes into Galaxies, Nebulae, Planets, Stars, etc. The first beings are other demi-gods like Shiva, Indra, etc.

One Day and Night of Brahma is 8,640,000,000 years. Now, when one day of Brahma is over, ie, when 4,320,000,000 years are up, Earth and the lower planets undergo destruction. The other part of the Universe remains intact. After a night of Brahma, the entire Universe is completely destroyed and regenerated again. This destruction is called Pralaya.

Brahma's life is divided into 1000 Chathur Yugas. Each Chathur Yuga is 4,320,000 years old.

71 Chathur Yugas make up a Manvantara, each Manvantara ruled by a being named 'Manu'. This Manu is the Father of all Humans.

Each Chathur Yuga is divided into 4 smaller Yugas. The Krita Yuga (1728000 Years), the Treta Yuga (1296000 Years), the Dwapara Yuga (864,000 Years) and the Kali Yuga (432000 years). We are in the 5000th year of Kali Yuga.

At the end of the Kali Yuga, Lord Vishnu will incarnate as Kalki. He will destroy the evil elements and restore the Krita Yuga again. Most likely, because of the death of the Sun, Lord Vishnu will transport the Earth to another Solar System. This has been predicted as a possible fate of the Earth's fate by Mordern Scientists as well, ie, the destruction of the Sun will cause the Earth to move away from its orbit before the deadly rays reach the planet. It could then travel to another place in the Universe.

We are in the 5000th year of Kali Yuga, as mentioned before. So, the end of this Yuga and the time of arrival of Lord Kalki is estimated to be 427000 AD.

This does not happen only for our Universe, but there are many millions of Brahmas for each and every one of the Parallel Universes existing in Bubbles. All of these Brahmas, Universes and their countless planets with the inhabitants will undergo the same process.

Now, we know that one Day and Night of Brahma is 8.64 Billion Years. Thus, the Life of Brahma is Hundred Brahma-Years, which equals to 311 Trillion Human Years.

Thus, after 311 Trillion Years, when all the current Brahmas die, Lord Vishnu will initiate a Maha Pralaya. Everything that was created, all the infinite bubbles with the parallel Universes, matter, anti-matter and anything distinct from the Supreme Lord Vishnu, will be swallowed by Him. All the worlds, universes, demi-gods, living souls, stars, moons, planets, etc. will reside in the stomach of the Lord.

Then, Lord Vishnu will once again expel the matter out of His divine Mouth. New Brahmas and Universes will be created again, preserved again and ultimately, destroyed again. This is an endless cycle, whose beginning is known only to Lord Vishnu, the eternal Brahman.

The Rig Veda asserts that none but Lord Narayana (Vishnu) knows when this Cycle of Creation, Preservation and Destruction began, as follows:

"Then was not non-existence nor existence: there was no realm of air, no sky beyond it. What covered in, and where? and what gave shelter? Was water there, unfathomed depth of water? Death was not then, nor was there aught immortal: no sign was there, the day's and night's divider. That One Thing, breathless, breathed by its own nature: apart from it was nothing whatsoever. Darkness there was at first concealed in darkness this. All was indiscriminated chaos. All that existed then was void and form less: by the great power of Warmth was born that Unit. Thereafter rose Desire in the beginning, Desire, the primal seed and germ of Spirit. Sages who searched with their heart's thought discovered the existent's kinship in the non-existent. Transversely was their severing line extended: what was above it then, and what below it? There were begetters, there were mighty forces, free action here and energy up yonder. Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation? The devas are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being? He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it, Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not" - (Rig Veda 10.129.1-7)

^----- awful long time to say you believe in an ancient fairy tale. Just say "wouldn't it be cool if..." before posting fiction like this.

^----- awful long time to say you believe in an ancient fairy tale. Just say "wouldn't it be cool if..." before posting fiction like this.

Either you believe it or you dont.

Hinduism was the FIRST to tell the world that earth was round.
Many laughed, people like you. But isnt it true?

Hindu sages were spiritual of the HIGHEST order.

Give me ANY, i say ANY religion which can describe universe in this profound manner, fuckface.

I guess your muslim right? thought so!

BTW fairy tales dont have mathematics in it fuck face.

Either you believe it or you dont.

Hinduism was the FIRST to tell the world that earth was round.
Many laughed, people like you. But isnt it true?

Hindu sages were spiritual of the HIGHEST order.

Give me ANY, i say ANY religion which can describe universe in this profound manner, fuckface.

I guess your muslim right? thought so!

BTW fairy tales dont have mathematics in it fuck face.

He's an atheist you troll. You don't provide any evidence at all for your arguments, just inane name-calling.

He's an atheist you troll. You don't provide any evidence at all for your arguments, just inane name-calling.

So what if he is an atheist, he should prove that there is NO god before calling himself ATHEIST, you cockmongler.

EVIDENCE?

bring your face in front of me, you shit.

BTW for people who need evidence:

you can read the Srimad Bhagavatam where everything is explained.

It was also said in the post, but some cockmonglers like SHITTYWOK cant read it.

I belive in these imaginary people, and if you don't believe in them too you should first castrate yourself and then go fuck yourself.

Come on, an egg with 14 planets, 7 of which are destroyed independently on the other seven, the the action or Gods that will only reveal themselves to the "True Believers". I just don't buy it.

Come on, an egg with 14 planets, 7 of which are destroyed independently on the other seven, the the action or Gods that will only reveal themselves to the "True Believers". I just don't buy it.

Who is saying you to buy it?

Also its LIKE an EGG, not really egg. Its in accordance with metaphysics.

Why are planets revolving SUN in ellipse(LIKE egg), umm?

Why doesnt earth make revolution in square, or circle or any other shape..

There are something which you have to understand and let it be. You cant change it. You cant deny it. But its there.

Hinduism is the Biggest diamond on earth which britishers, islamists, etc., couldnt TAKE home or grasp its ideas. Its given to those who are worth it.

GO around asking question and when stop at hinduism, PM me BRO.

So what if he is an atheist, he should prove that there is NO god before calling himself ATHEIST, you cockmongler. .

I do not have to prove there is no God. You should spend less time researching Indian folk tales and more time researching things like the burden of proof and who has the burden.

Never forget that which is purposed with no evidence can be dismissed without any as well.

EXAMPLE: I fucked your mother.

PROVE I did not.

In this case the burden of proof is of course mine. I purpose that I fucked your mother yet I lack the evidence to back up my claim (or do I)?

BTW for people who need evidence:

you can read the Srimad Bhagavatam where everything is explained.

It was also said in the post, but some cockmonglers like SHITTYWOK cant read it.

If you need any evidence you can read the bible where everything is explained.

My point is that if your only evidence is the founding book of your religion you have as much evidence as J.K. Rowling does for Hoggwart's being a real place.

Who is saying you to buy it?

Also its LIKE an EGG, not really egg. Its in accordance with metaphysics.

Why are planets revolving SUN in ellipse(LIKE egg), umm?

Why doesnt earth make revolution in square, or circle or any other shape..

There are something which you have to understand and let it be. You cant change it. You cant deny it. But its there.

Hinduism is the Biggest diamond on earth which britishers, islamists, etc., couldnt TAKE home or grasp its ideas. Its given to those who are worth it.

GO around asking question and when stop at hinduism, PM me BRO.

This level of piety has damaged his mind beyond recognition

...

You imply that you understand God and the way of things, yet you choose to interact with people in a manner such as this? You are an asshole, sir, and contribute more to problems then you do to solutions.

I agree with a lot of basic concepts from Hinduism, but would never become a Hindu or subscribe to the religion. It still has all the faults of all organized religions, it still has felt the effects of authority and undergone changes as thousands of years passed by. You could think of the simple spiritual teachings which over thousands of years grew into the organized religions we know today, as very old nails ... they might have once been sharp and to-the-point, but have since gathered much rust.

So what if he is an atheist, he should prove that there is NO god before calling himself ATHEIST, you cockmongler.


You can't prove that something doesn't exist.

Try proving to me that there isn't an invisible unicorn that lives 80 billion light years away from us.

The burden of proof always lies on the person who wants to convince me of zombies/cosmic elephants/etc.

Quite a nice story, but still not true.

all in all we cant prove anything but we still try to...
rationalizing the irrational...
we, as a species, FAIL

^Welcome to My God. . .

Now get off the drugs and GET A JOB, ya slacker!

(Just joking--I read your profile.)

Who is saying you to buy it?

Also its LIKE an EGG, not really egg. Its in accordance with metaphysics.

Why are planets revolving SUN in ellipse(LIKE egg), umm?

Why doesnt earth make revolution in square, or circle or any other shape..

You're an idiot. Firstly the Earth revolves because of the Sun's gravitational field. It isn't a perfect circle because it's basically a big rock flying through empty space at thousands of miles an hour. If you believe that little made up tale then fine.

I personally believe that science can explain everything and everything that isn't known will be someday. The whole magical fairy dragon stuff is interesting but false. There is no creator, there is no fate or pre-determined anything. This universe being created is just a coincidence. Also, as someone stated earlier: The Earth must be millions of years old because it takes the light millions of years to travel from those distances.

Now I'm not calling you names, so I expect a well thought out response.

^Welcome to My God. . .

Now get off the drugs and GET A JOB, ya slacker!

(Just joking--I read your profile.)

lolz thx

Hey everyone... I'm a happy agnostic, used to hang about on this forum some time ago, eventually got fed up of the same arguments doing the rounds. I recently came accross this chap VenomfangX on youtube though, and his arrogance pissed me off to new extremes. One of his series of videos is based on proving the age of the Earth to be well below 10,000 years. He doesn't address one issue though, and that's one i'd like to address now. I'm going to lead my argument with the answers that CREATIONISTS give me. My first question is this:

HOW BIG IS THE UNIVERSE?

Post your answers below, use whatever sources you like; the more the merrier. I will accept any answers that have a source posted, which I personally cannot irrefutably disprove beyond reasonable doubt. Give your answers in any units convenient to you; metres, parsecs, light years, miles... whatever suits you.

I'll check back for answers tomorrow, and post my follow up question, for which if an answer is provided, I'll post a picture of me drinking my own piss.

13.7 billion light years. If the Earth is 10,000 years old, then how in the fuck can rocks be carbon-dated to billions of years old? Rocks on the Earth, no less. Not talking about little scraps, I'm talking about huge rocks in Africa where just now they are peeking above the crust from erosion. If you know geology, its pretty obvious that looking at the rocks and layers of sediment that these processes of making cliffs and mountains and shit didn't happen overnight. It takes a loooong time.

The Hubble telescope can see back to when the Universe was in its "dark ages". There was nothing to see because galaxies didn't form yet. Galaxies that can be seen right before the dark ages look a lot different from the spiral galaxies of today. Look more like gas clouds or something. Using Einstein's Theory of Relativity, scientists can extrapolate back to when the universe was a singularity. So, science is pretty confident of the 13.7 figure.

I don't think creationists even understand the true meaning of theory. Theory is just the explanation of pure mathematical facts. Its kinda like a teacher teaches musical "theory" like how to read music and shit, then you play an instrument based on the theory. Its a fact that you're playing music, but there's theory behind the music. So, don't even listen to those fags when they say "It's just a theory".

Theories are based on fact plain and simple. Theories may change a bit, but it doesn't change the facts behind it. I dunno why I got off on this theory tangent, it just seems like its the only thing creationists can say when you prove something to them.

Don't even watch those VenomfagX videos. Not worth the brain tumors.

Who is saying you to buy it?

Also its LIKE an EGG, not really egg. Its in accordance with metaphysics.

Why are planets revolving SUN in ellipse(LIKE egg), umm?

Why doesnt earth make revolution in square, or circle or any other shape..


Research Johannes Kepler. Pretty much sums it up.

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=kCiStLKzivM&watch_response

I think this guy nailed it!

Infinitely large... The Universe goes beyond comprehension... theres a system within a system...

HOW BIG IS THE UNIVERSE?

Infinitely large. The vacuum's expanse is infinite in the three spacial dimensions. As to how large the material swirl of the universe is...I have no idea. Much larger than the mind can truly comprehend, however.

13.7 billion light years. If the Earth is 10,000 years old, then how in the fuck can rocks be carbon-dated to billions of years old? Rocks on the Earth, no less. Not talking about little scraps, I'm talking about huge rocks in Africa where just now they are peeking above the crust from erosion. If you know geology, its pretty obvious that looking at the rocks and layers of sediment that these processes of making cliffs and mountains and shit didn't happen overnight. It takes a loooong time.

The Hubble telescope can see back to when the Universe was in its "dark ages". There was nothing to see because galaxies didn't form yet. Galaxies that can be seen right before the dark ages look a lot different from the spiral galaxies of today. Look more like gas clouds or something. Using Einstein's Theory of Relativity, scientists can extrapolate back to when the universe was a singularity. So, science is pretty confident of the 13.7 figure.

I don't think creationists even understand the true meaning of theory. Theory is just the explanation of pure mathematical facts. Its kinda like a teacher teaches musical "theory" like how to read music and shit, then you play an instrument based on the theory. Its a fact that you're playing music, but there's theory behind the music. So, don't even listen to those fags when they say "It's just a theory".

Theories are based on fact plain and simple. Theories may change a bit, but it doesn't change the facts behind it. I dunno why I got off on this theory tangent, it just seems like its the only thing creationists can say when you prove something to them.

Don't even watch those VenomfagX videos. Not worth the brain tumors.

Nice work, spot on. Previous two posters should refer to this.

^ I watch too many documentaries in my spare time.

Therory by definition means a hypothesis or concept not yet proven... As we see science is always changing saying "Wait we didnt account for this or that." I am not disagreeing but Evolution, Big Bang they still are theories and things can still be altered since they are theories. These aren't laws just, theories. The Law of Gravity or Newtonian Laws that An object tends to stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force is a law... We cant test directly at least whether or not our bodies came from Chimps and Apes and what not...

Again, I am no Creationist... I'm simply saying science is loose until the hypothesis is proven than its fact.

Therory by definition means a hypothesis or concept not yet proven... As we see science is always changing saying "Wait we didnt account for this or that." I am not disagreeing but Evolution, Big Bang they still are theories and things can still be altered since they are theories. These aren't laws just, theories. The Law of Gravity or Newtonian Laws that An object tends to stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force is a law... We cant test directly at least whether or not our bodies came from Chimps and Apes and what not...

Again, I am no Creationist... I'm simply saying science is loose until the hypothesis is proven than its fact.

Yes, I agree completely. Theories are not always completely solid. That's the scientific method. But, how completely sure are you of anything at all? We only see what our brain can perceive. Nothing can really be proven to be a 100% completely true fact. There will always be questions. You have to look at the evidence though and weigh it against other possibilities and there is a huge possibility that the universe began as a singularity.

What I was saying about theories is that obviously the Law of Gravity is true. What goes up must come down. But, we don't know WHY exactly it must come down. Theories can be an explanation for that law. The theory may not be exactly right, but its explaining true facts that we observe in everyday life.

Mathematics and physics can explain that the universe began as a single dot- a singularity. We pretty much know that the universe is expanding through physics (Doppler effect and red shift) If we extrapolate back, we can conclude that it must've started at a single point. We don't know exactly what happened to make the universe expand, so the theory of the big bang was created to explain this expanding universe. The Big Bang is just a theory and we may not know everything there is to know about it , but it explains the fact of an expanding universe.

Therory by definition means a hypothesis or concept not yet proven... As we see science is always changing saying "Wait we didnt account for this or that." I am not disagreeing but Evolution, Big Bang they still are theories and things can still be altered since they are theories.

Anything in Science can be altered. Laws, theories, hypothesis. Anything.

Science always admits the possibility of being incorrect, whether it's a theory or a law, and these labels aren't some sort of reward for reaching a particular level of certainty. A theory doesn't suddenly become a "law" after it has reached X amount of "evidence" or "proof".



"The difference between a "law" and a "theory" often confuses people. This happens, in part, because even among scientists there can be different usage of these terms. Of course, to the general public, these terms have very different meanings and connotations. I suggest that you look up the definitions of both words in any English dictionary. As used in science (http://science.kennesaw.edu/%7Ermatson/naturescience.html), I think that it is important to realize that, in spite of the differences (see below), these terms share some things in common. Both are based on tested hypotheses; both are supported by a large body of empirical data; both help unify a particular field; both are widely accepted by the vast majority (if not all) scientists within a discipline. Furthermore, both scientific laws and scientific theories could be shown to be wrong at some time if there are data to suggest so."

http://science.kennesaw.edu/~rmatson/3380theory.html (http://science.kennesaw.edu/%7Ermatson/3380theory.html)



So saying "theories can be altered" is either needlessly specific (or exclusive depending on how you want to see it) because everything in Science can be changed, or part of the erroneous belief that theories are somehow beneath laws in terms of evidence or facts.

Just as long as you dont think I am Creationist and that I am not arguing against evolution, I have no quarrel with you. I am just saying we live subjective experiences and as subjective beings things can change:

Our thoughts, our therories, our (re)actions and our feelings. Hell even the world we live in can change both instantly or Gradually.

Thanks to the fellow who had the 13.7B light year distance. Is that the diameter or radius, though? I think the last approximation I read on age is roughly 14.5B years, but I'm not sure what I read on the changing rates of expansion.

Thus, I'm not sure whether the 13.7B light years correlates to a near light-speed expansion rate, or a near half light-speed average expansion rate.

BTW: "Don't even watch those VenomfagX videos. Not worth the brain tumors." Thanks for the laugh. :)

Just as long as you dont think I am Creationist and that I am not arguing against evolution, I have no quarrel with you. I am just saying we live subjective experiences and as subjective beings things can change:

Our thoughts, our therories, our (re)actions and our feelings. Hell even the world we live in can change both instantly or Gradually.

Great! Next time don't imply that a scientific theory could end up being proven absolutely by saying that the theory of evolution is still "loose until proven as a fact". It's as close to a fact as Science is ever going to get. Science always admits the possibility of anything being wrong.

Thanks to the fellow who had the 13.7B light year distance. Is that the diameter or radius, though? I think the last approximation I read on age is roughly 14.5B years, but I'm not sure what I read on the changing rates of expansion.

Thus, I'm not sure whether the 13.7B light years correlates to a near light-speed expansion rate, or a near half light-speed average expansion rate.

BTW: "Don't even watch those VenomfagX videos. Not worth the brain tumors." Thanks for the laugh. :)

I'm not exactly sure, but I would have to assume that the people in charge would take into account our position in the universe and say that approx 13.7 billion would be the diameter. The bigger it sounds, the better after all.

Again, I would assume that light speed would be
300, 000, 000 m/s because its approximately the true speed of light in a vacuum. Also, I'm no scientist or anything, but that's the speed of light I use in all of my electronics courses.

hahah, and I wasn't joking about Venomfag. That sheer level of stupidity is so strong, I can feel my brain bleed. I was once told by a successful person that they felt that way about wheel of fortune. So, I would say that the level of intelligence in venomfag /= level of intelligence in wheel of fortune. - "The words fit, but it don't make no sense."

Words are just words... Sadly people are a bit forgetful that Science can only admit that everything they study is only on a scale of probability NOT Certainty. Even a high level of probability still is not certainty its still just a probability which means there still room to doubt.

Thats what both religious and some humanist tend to forget. If science contradicts a religious doctrine than the religious people think science is final (when its not, as it only seems final at the moment) and thats why they get there vestments in a bunch.

I'm not trying to argue against anyone I'm just stating or perhaps reminding people of the obvious. But perhaps what is obvious can also be questionable...? LoL

Sadly people are a bit forgetful that Science can only admit that everything they study is only on a scale of probability NOT Certainty.

What does that even mean?

Science tries strives to reach as close to certainty as possible while still maintaining that it could be wrong. It deals with scales of certainty in that not all hypothesis or theories are as strong; some have mot evidence (or have survived refutation more times) than others. That's not a scale of probability in the least.

No - what does this even mean?


Thats what both religious and some humanist tend to forget. If science contradicts a religious doctrine than the religious people think science is final (when its not, as it only seems final at the moment)

Also- There is a difference between scientific laws and scientific facts.

Yes, scientific facts don't exist. Its comfortable to work with the assumption that if I drop something it will fall, but I have no way of knowing that except from past experience. A metric fuckton of past experience, but still just past experience. If something were to not fall or do something unexpected, it would require a reworking or scrapping of a great many theories to the end of much havoc in science.

However, theists shouldn't think that because "science isn't final", that they can ever succeed at proving the twisted falsities they believe.

When you say theist I get the impression you might be getting confused with the term fundamentalist. Theist can understand that [SOMETHING INCONCEIVABLE] is symbolic of something that is something else... e.g. the flood, garden of eden, earth being only 10k to 6k years old... etc