Well one of my college roommates happens to be a Christian literalist. His mantra on life is "If it didn't happen as it says in the Bible GTFO." My other room mates tend to avoid talking to him, so he focuses his attention upon me.

Now I come from a largely agnostic/athiest family; our discussions on religion usually involve the incompatibility with it and Science (since all members but I are in a Science related field). However, in debates with this room mate his response to me debunking his claims with Science is "The Bible says otherwise". My goal is to convert him to atleast agnosticism by April.

Help me &totse: How can I place doubt in his mind?

read the bible as you need to research this kind of thing

then come up with a logic problem

if god says or does this, but this then what? what does that mean.

the trick is you need to get him to explain things, thats where the errors will come into play and can be exploited

its kind of like the old saying if god can do anything, then can he make a rock that even he cant lift

it just needs to be more complex than that

Also make him realise the contradictions himself - e.g. showing passages in Leviticus that expressed not to cut hair or shave, sleeping with family members, etc.

This will show him that the Bible, if anything, should be taken not literally, but as a guide and in comparison with today's (and some timeless) morals and practices.

If he still fails to change, then take pity on him, his blind ignorance, and don't get into any more discussions with him.

1. Ask him if there is some reason he believes in God. If he says no, go to number 2. If he says yes, go to number 3.

2. Ask him why he needs a reason to believe in most other claims he is faced with, but not God. When he provides an answer to this, go to number 3, using this answer as the reason.

3. Ask him if he would still believe if that reason disappeared. If he says yes, go to number 2. If he says no, go to number 4.

4. Make his reason disappear.

How to prove that Jesus is completely imaginary to a fundie in five minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUj8hg5CoSw

Tell his that either he makes Jesus appear to you or STFU.

If he doesn't do either, he's a hopeless cause. Don't let in wiggle out by letting him say context or exaggerating, ask him if that part's not 100% true, by what standard can he hold the other 99.5% true?

I doubt you'll have much luck talking sense into him, so I'd focus my energy elsewhere. Ignore him, and maybe he'll stop trying to force it down your throat.

Make this into a poster and hang it in your room.
http://a683.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/64/l_99e9b56709a01c818e4693fa4e39a092.jpg

1. Ask him if there is some reason he believes in God. If he says no, go to number 2. If he says yes, go to number 3.



He is a born again Christian. Oh, I forgot to tell you this. His reason for believing is when he lived in a Northern Albertan city (the bible belt of Canada, like the deep dirty south but not cool) he went to church on the advice of a friend. At this church what he describes as a "prophet" was delivering a guest sermon. The prophet asked is there anyone who hasn't accepted the Lord, and asked them to come up. He went up, and claimed the prophet whispered something in his ear, a secret, that he would have no way of knowing (probably that hes a homo). He then claims to have seen Christ, and touched his face. Lawl. Thats his reason for believing.

"How can I place doubt in his mind?"

He already has doubt in his mind. There is not a human alive that doesn't falter in Faith. What's despicable, however, is that you wish to manipulate another human being against their will. If he wanted to free himself from faith in God, he would do it on his own without any help from you. You're trying to impress your lack of faith upon another person; is this trait of evangelism not the very one that makes the average agnostic cringe at most religious folk?

Why do you seek to disrupt another human being? Will it really bring your life into a better position to toy with another person's mind?

Further, if he doesn't lose his faith, what will you have done for his impression of those without faith?

Before you do this, please think of the honest answers to these questions I've posed. This isn't for this boy's sake, it's for yours.

You're an idiot, if I knew where you live -- I assume it's close because you say you're in BC -- I'd kick your ass. :mad:

His mantra on life is "If it didn't happen as it says in the Bible GTFO."

Make your mantra to him "Stfu about the Bible. Lawl." then ignore him and continue with life? Not that hard...

ask him why it´not a sin to extinct animals, use nuclear wepaons to destroy earth or pollute the earth with fossil energy like oil and coal from dead animals which are not mentioned in the bible.

because those high sheep fuckers 2000 years ago had NO CLUE about this stuff when they wrote the fairy tales.

tell him if he was a real christian he can´t use electricity, cars, satellite tv, internet, not even a bible with a plastic cover etc etc etc ..

tell him if he was a real christian he can´t use electricity, cars, satellite tv, internet, not even a bible with a plastic cover etc etc etc ..

:rolleyes: Which part of the Bible forbids this?

which part allows it idiot? if it´s not mentioned in the bible, you can´t use it ..

Wow, your trying to actively convert someone. Your trying to change someone, I see why religious people are fighting against atheism because, this instance proves it. Active Proselytizing is what evangelicals do, if you continue to do what you are doing you will be just as bad as those you are fighting against.

I am a person of skepticism as well to some degree but the idea is not to make him doubt what he believes but to open him up to the possibilities outside what he believes. I will be honest you challenging his beliefs will only make him grow in faith. The idea is to be friendly with him and remind him from time to time that the world is full of possibilities.

You want my advice: Don't change someone, instead chance yourself through the experience. Perhaps accept is view like a human being instead of trying to evangelize him to agnosticism. The real problem is that people are trying to put there utopias and there views upon other people.

This thread makes me sick absolutely...

An old saying springs to mind--
never try to teach a pig to sing--it wastes your time, and annoys the pig.

What Godfather said.

How to prove that Jesus is completely imaginary to a fundie in five minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUj8hg5CoSw

Tell his that either he makes Jesus appear to you or STFU.

If he doesn't do either, he's a hopeless cause. Don't let in wiggle out by letting him say context or exaggerating, ask him if that part's not 100% true, by what standard can he hold the other 99.5% true?

Seriously.... That was awful, I had to force myself to listen to that video. It proves nothing apart from the infelxibility of the narrator.

tell him in the middle of a desert jesus would be turning wine into water not the other way around.

Well one of my college roommates happens to be a Christian literalist. His mantra on life is "If it didn't happen as it says in the Bible GTFO." My other room mates tend to avoid talking to him, so he focuses his attention upon me.

Now I come from a largely agnostic/athiest family; our discussions on religion usually involve the incompatibility with it and Science (since all members but I are in a Science related field). However, in debates with this room mate his response to me debunking his claims with Science is "The Bible says otherwise". My goal is to convert him to atleast agnosticism by April.

Help me &totse: How can I place doubt in his mind?
smack him senseless

Whoah Whoah Whoah, lets all back the fuck up here. Attacking someone like Bill Keller is ok, yet saving someone from a life of ignorance isn't?

Even irreligious people can lead a life of ignorance.

Tell him you prayed to god and commanded you to not believe in him.

First: Use common sense like
"So Jesus died for our sins and we must worship him or burn in a lake of fire; did we ever have a choice? That's incredibly unfair. That means there is no free will."
"Jesus loves you but he'll torture you if you don't reciprocate. Does that sound like love, or a threat?"
"If a good, judicious, loving man dies a non-Christian, he'll burn and toil all the same; again, what a superficial asshole Christ is."
"God offers eternal life, but you have to completely obey him. That's pure blackmail"

Second: Unleash the greatest weapon against Christianity: the Bible
"If God is infallible, then you must support slavery (1 Peter 2:18 , Ephesians 6:5, Leviticus 23: 44-46), and treating slaves with cruelty (Exodus 21: 20-21/ 21:2-6, Luke 12:46-47); killing children (Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Exodus 21:17, Psalm 137:9, Mark 7:9-10), and massacring unnbelievers ( Dt.13:6-10 ). And if he pulls the tired "Jesus changed the law", use Matthew 5:17

I'm a little short on time right now, so here are some great resources at your disposal. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ http://tinyurl.com/h4u5b

good luck and godspeed ;)

Wow, your trying to actively convert someone. Your trying to change someone, I see why religious people are fighting against atheism because, this instance proves it. Active Proselytizing is what evangelicals do, if you continue to do what you are doing you will be just as bad as those you are fighting against.

I am a person of skepticism as well to some degree but the idea is not to make him doubt what he believes but to open him up to the possibilities outside what he believes. I will be honest you challenging his beliefs will only make him grow in faith. The idea is to be friendly with him and remind him from time to time that the world is full of possibilities.

You want my advice: Don't change someone, instead chance yourself through the experience. Perhaps accept is view like a human being instead of trying to evangelize him to agnosticism. The real problem is that people are trying to put there utopias and there views upon other people.

This thread makes me sick absolutely...

Fuck off. Religion is a fucking disease and needs to be wiped out. maybe if religion didnt literally control every aspect of our lives than i would agree with you but since it does, no. Its attitude like yours that allowed slavery to exist, abortion to be illegal and other stupid shit that makes no fucking sense.

Wow, your trying to actively convert someone. Your trying to change someone, I see why religious people are fighting against atheism because, this instance proves it. Active Proselytizing is what evangelicals do, if you continue to do what you are doing you will be just as bad as those you are fighting against.

Proselytizing and teaching common sense are two entirely different things. If you believed Santa Claus was actually real, living in the North Pole with elves making a naughty list and readying his rain deer for his faster than light travel on christmas eve, it would be my duty as a human being to try and help you overcome this derangement and talk some common sense to you.

Well one of my college roommates happens to be a Christian literalist. His mantra on life is "If it didn't happen as it says in the Bible GTFO." My other room mates tend to avoid talking to him, so he focuses his attention upon me.

Now I come from a largely agnostic/athiest family; our discussions on religion usually involve the incompatibility with it and Science (since all members but I are in a Science related field). However, in debates with this room mate his response to me debunking his claims with Science is "The Bible says otherwise". My goal is to convert him to atleast agnosticism by April.

Help me &totse: How can I place doubt in his mind?

Show him that radioactive carbon 14 dating from meteorites prove the Earth and the solar system is 4.6 billion years old, as opposed to the bible saying it is 10,000 years old. That does the trick there mate.

Why the fuck do you care? Let him be.

I thought atheists were supposed to be the ones who complained about people trying to convert them.

Then you shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free

http://www.baseball-bats.net/images/rawlings-wood-bat.bmp

^^^lol

First: Use common sense like
"So Jesus died for our sins and we must worship him or burn in a lake of fire; did we ever have a choice? That's incredibly unfair. That means there is no free will."
"Jesus loves you but he'll torture you if you don't reciprocate. Does that sound like love, or a threat?"
"If a good, judicious, loving man dies a non-Christian, he'll burn and toil all the same; again, what a superficial asshole Christ is."
"God offers eternal life, but you have to completely obey him. That's pure blackmail"

Second: Unleash the greatest weapon against Christianity: the Bible
"If God is infallible, then you must support slavery (1 Peter 2:18 , Ephesians 6:5, Leviticus 23: 44-46), and treating slaves with cruelty (Exodus 21: 20-21/ 21:2-6, Luke 12:46-47); killing children (Deuteronomy 21:18-21, Exodus 21:17, Psalm 137:9, Mark 7:9-10), and massacring unnbelievers ( Dt.13:6-10 ). And if he pulls the tired "Jesus changed the law", use Matthew 5:17

I'm a little short on time right now, so here are some great resources at your disposal. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ http://tinyurl.com/h4u5b

good luck and godspeed ;)

Jesus didn't change the law, rather the Law is unnecesary to be a christian, which is how the Gentiles can become christians. The Law is summed up in the teaching of loving others above yourself. It is faith that is important, not the law, to a christian and even faith is below love ,'these three remain: Faith Hope and Love, the greatest of these is love.' 1 Corinthians 13:13

If you act in love for the good of other above yourself you have fulfilled the law. When you understand this you can reason through those things that God wishes you to do.

As far as I'm concerned all the problems that people pose with the Bible are moot once you actually read the Bible for yourself.

As far as I'm concerned all the problems that people pose with the Bible are moot once you actually read the Bible for yourself.

Quite a stretch...

Fuck off. Religion is a fucking disease and needs to be wiped out. maybe if religion didnt literally control every aspect of our lives than i would agree with you but since it does, no. Its attitude like yours that allowed slavery to exist, abortion to be illegal and other stupid shit that makes no fucking sense.

Religion doesn't control people, if theres one thing religion makes VERY CLEAR: You have a free will! If we didnt than the world would be a different place perhaps there would be a FORCED PEACE or FORCED Fillin the blank. Just like that saying about guns: "Guns dont kill people." Same thing goes for religion... People Kill People, a fundamentalist uses "Gods Will" as justification for what he had done, yet God would most likely be disappointed for greatly missing the mark.

Religion is not a disease; how would you like it if I said atheism is a disease you should fuck off from saying such a phrase.

Do you even hear yourself speaking? I don't take ANY RELIGIOUS TEXT word for word. I understand that those who are being referred to grew up in times when it was socially alright to own slaves but as we advance and our compassion for others grows we realize the error of our old ways and make amends and start anew!

So don't dare say I support all the negativity in this fuckin world. Its people like you who listen to what others have to say and don't know what the fuck your saying that allowed slavery to exist, people so blinded by there egoistic drives and desires that allowed slavery to exist.

Politically Im Liberal, I dont believe religious fundamentalist and evangelicals should impose there views upon the world we live in which is largely secular. To me its up to me and the other person to decide whether to abort the baby as an example and no person has a right to say what you can and cannot do, inevitably it ends up in your hands to decide... To refer to the beginning of this argument its called FREE WILL something RELIGION makes VERY CLEAR say we have.

Proselytizing and teaching common sense are two entirely different things. If you believed Santa Claus was actually real, living in the North Pole with elves making a naughty list and readying his rain deer for his faster than light travel on christmas eve, it would be my duty as a human being to try and help you overcome this derangement and talk some common sense to you.

Proselytizing by definition means "an attempt to convert one to another way of thinking." In this instance, he is imposing his view onto another, trying to convert his religious fundamentalist way of thinking with the agnostic line of thinking...

As for the Santa Claus example, its obvious that he doesn't exist except in the mall's during Christmas time and we all know its an outfit this man has a life outside this outfit but he puts on a show for that time of the year, if you went to another mall the same day you would see another Santa outfit. This is a definitive agreement that Santa is not real, although the beginnings of it where founded by a Saint (Saint Nicholas), the continuation is just a tradition.

HOWEVER, you cannot do the same for God. Hence a debate for the existence of (No) God. Its indisputable and we can all agree that Santa Claus the guy who rides a flying sleigh once a year has no existence. However, God's existence being questioned is only leading down to the road of unsureness not a definitive yes or definitive no. People believe there is (No / A) God, however, most people don't bother to try and KNOW a God! What most people are stuck in is this hypnotic view of BELIEVING, Not trying to KNOW! Hence, the raging debate on the (dis)belief of God.

Religion doesn't control people

Religion does control people. Religious people aspire to be led by their faith. They believe it's "in God's hands", remember. Things happen because God wills it to happen. God's will is rock solid, in their minds. Therefore, religion does control religious people.


I understand that those who are being referred to grew up in times when it was socially alright to own slaves but as we advance and our compassion for others grows we realize the error of our old ways and make amends and start anew!

So why hasn't the majority of the world started anew with the antiquated belief that there is an omnipotent force that has an interactive relationship with humankind? Why haven't we advanced to that point, since there's never been any evidence to support that?

Politically Im Liberal, I dont believe religious fundamentalist and evangelicals should impose there views upon the world we live in which is largely secular.

You might be politically liberal, but tell me this: What world are you living in? Because the planet I'm on has a lot more people connected to religion than not connected to religion. It behooves me to report to you that this world is not even close to being "largely secular".


As for the Santa Claus example, its obvious that he doesn't exist except in the mall's during Christmas time and we all know its an outfit this man has a life outside this outfit but he puts on a show for that time of the year, if you went to another mall the same day you would see another Santa outfit. This is a definitive agreement that Santa is not real, although the beginnings of it where founded by a Saint (Saint Nicholas), the continuation is just a tradition.

Let's use that same exemplification on God:

As for the God example, it's obvious that he doesn't exist except in the minds of those who desire to have "someone watching over them". If you go to one corner of the world, the God concept is presented as a multitude of characters who all reign as supreme deities in a looooong line of worship-worthy divine characters. If you go to another corner of the world, say you flew out there on the same day - you'd find another version of God, being presented as a trinity of The Father, The Son & The Holy Ghost. If you're not too jet-lagged, you could fly on over to yet another part of the world, and find that God isn't even a real character, but rather a state of mind, another tier of consciousness. This is a definitive agreement that God is not real, although the beginnings of it were founded by people who considered themselves holy. The continuance of it is just tradition.

(See how that works both ways?)

HOWEVER, you cannot do the same for God.

Yes, you can. I just did.

Hence a debate for the existence of (No) God. Its indisputable and we can all agree that Santa Claus the guy who rides a flying sleigh once a year has no existence. However, God's existence being questioned is only leading down to the road of unsureness not a definitive yes or definitive no. People believe there is (No / A) God, however, most people don't bother to try and KNOW a God! What most people are stuck in is this hypnotic view of BELIEVING, Not trying to KNOW! Hence, the raging debate on the (dis)belief of God.

Santa can't be proven; God can't be proven. Believing in either one of them requires the same amount of fantasy and fiction to be taken as the truth. I just don't see the stark contrast.

Religion does control people. Religious people aspire to be led by their faith. They believe it's "in God's hands", remember. Things happen because God wills it to happen. God's will is rock solid, in their minds. Therefore, religion does control religious people.

Your right, I apologize that religion doesn't control people. When I said "didnt control" I mean in the sense that we have the choice to decide we can go counter to what religious doctrine has taught us. What I'm saying is that its in your hands to decide what you will do and no one else's, they might suggest or advise but you can still run counter to that "advisement."

As for "Gods Will" I identify myself as a Gnostic with Christ's Teachings or someone from the religion of Gnosticism. In the Gnostic belief very few things in this world are of God's will the rest is quite essentially The Demiurge which can be equated to the Christian Devil. Most of what I see is the Handiwork of the Devil not God. Plus it would be wise to say that I don't in my religion put the Old testament God with The New Testament God in the same car, so to speak. Some parts of the NT Bible have been edited throughout there translations and various editions.

So why hasn't the majority of the world started anew with the antiquated belief that there is an omnipotent force that has an interactive relationship with humankind? Why haven't we advanced to that point, since there's never been any evidence to support that?

Its still debatable, we argue over these things because we don't know or feel like we have a part in it. Were not going to argue the color of the sky we can all universally agree its blue. Its not worth arguing over, however, things we argue over we argue because we may not know or we have a part in it.

We are just as advanced as the Greeks 5000 years ago, the real question why so few people have really been able to reach Saint and Popular Scholar Level and get there own place in the History Books? What have they done to get there? Why are the rest of us no better than super chimpanzee's?

You might be politically liberal, but tell me this: What world are you living in? Because the planet I'm on has a lot more people connected to religion than not connected to religion. It behooves me to report to you that this world is not even close to being "largely secular".

I would say the same thing to you... What world are you living on because, the one I'm on advertises everything a materialist society wants, while God says less is more. Mmm... Well if people buying more and more and God says Less and less than we must be faltering in the religious sector of things, blinded by the objects in front of us something a person who didnt believe in a greater reason for existence... That person is to me called a secularist...

Europe, Asia once largely a religious base now in most spots turning largely secular and more liberal. Am I against secularism no... What I don't like simply is that people fall sucker to buying there hearts desires and express no self control and certainly no knowledge of who they are and what they really want and base there actions of what they think they know what they want and who they are.

Let's use that same exemplification on God:

As for the God example, it's obvious that he doesn't exist except in the minds of those who desire to have "someone watching over them". If you go to one corner of the world, the God concept is presented as a multitude of characters who all reign as supreme deities in a looooong line of worship-worthy divine characters. If you go to another corner of the world, say you flew out there on the same day - you'd find another version of God, being presented as a trinity of The Father, The Son & The Holy Ghost. If you're not too jet-lagged, you could fly on over to yet another part of the world, and find that God isn't even a real character, but rather a state of mind, another tier of consciousness. This is a definitive agreement that God is not real, although the beginnings of it were founded by people who considered themselves holy. The continuance of it is just tradition.

(See how that works both ways?) ... Yes, you can. I just did.

To-Shay... lol

But, let me share with you some words from those who were Christians. I present to you excerpts from the text "The Philocalia" written in part by Third Century Church Father Origen who writes:

"Now that we have, as it were, just glanced at the inspiration of the Divine Scriptures, we must pass on to the way to read and understand them; for very many mistakes have been made, because the right method of examining the holy texts has not been discovered by the greater number of readers...

... because it is their habit to follow the bare letter of the prophecies concerning Him, and they do not see Him with their bodily eyes proclaiming liberty to the captives, nor building what they think the true city of God, nor cutting off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, nor eating butter and honey, and before He knoweth or preferreth evil choosing the good...

... Scripture interweaves the imaginative with the historical, sometimes introducing what is utterly impossible, sometimes what is possible but never occurred. Sometimes it is only a few words, not literally true, which have been inserted; sometimes the insertions are of greater length. And we must this way understand even the giving of the Law, for therein we may frequently discover the immediate use, adapted to the times when the Law was given; sometimes, however, no good reason appears...

... And elsewhere we have even impossible commands, for readers of greater ability and those who have more of the spirit of inquiry; so that, applying themselves to the labour of investigating the things written, they may have a fitting conviction of the necessity of looking therein for a meaning worthy of God...

... The Word has done the same with with the Gospels, and the writings of the apostles; for not even they are purely historical, incidents which never occured being interwoven in the "corporeal" sense...

... And who is so silly as to imagine that God, like a husbandman, planted a garden in Eden eastward, and put in it a tree of life,71 which could be seen and felt, so that whoever tasted of the fruit with his bodily teeth received the gift of life, and further that any one as he masticated the fruit of this tree partook of good and evil? And if God is also said to walk in the garden in the evening, and Adam to hide himself under the tree,72 I do not suppose that any one will doubt that these passages by means of seeming history, though the incidents never occurred, figuratively reveal certain mysteries."

I Know it was alot to read but I make my case right there concerning the Tradition that was and but is now hidden, what we have now is the fundamentalist Christians pounding there bibles and that I do not like either. In a nutshell even some early Christians knew that this stuff was largely a myth. To share with you some more wisdom: "Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way. (e.g.)---> There is a rebirth and an image of rebirth."- Gospel of Phillip

So what fundamentalist are doing is basing there beliefs around the symbols (words written) instead of the real truth, the only way to that is introspection, looking to yourself (e.g. Meditation)