I reckon it has happened to thousands, maybe millions, of us over the years. We are taught that God created us, loves us, gave us life and free will and all that good stuff. Then we hear about hell. Wait a minute, we think--this loving God has created a special place of eternal torment to punish us for breaking rules which are arbitrary and illogical, and which we may not have even been aware of? What's up with that? This creates a huge mental conflict, which we often reslove buy rejecting the notion of God altogether.

I would suggest we abandon the notion of hell instead. It is simply a myth. You may take a hard line and say it was conconcted by the priesthood as a means of mind control, or see hell as a metaphor--most of the bible IS metaphorical, and Jesus came up with something like forty parables ( metaphorical anecdotes) just in the few scriptures that made the approved list.

Many liberal Protestant theologians say the same thing, and guess what? So did Pope John Paul II, hardly a flaming radical. To be specific, in an audience at the Vatican on July 28, 1999, he sid "Danation cnnot be attributed to an initiative of God because in his merciful love He cannot want anything but the salvation of the being He created." The pontiff added that eternal damnaiton is the self-imposed punishment of those who choose to refuse God's love and mercy.

The pope said what we must be very careful in interpreting the biblical descriptions of Hell--"the inextinguishable fire" and "the burning oven"--which he said are symbolic and metaphorical.

Alright.

PB bump.

You may take a hard line and say it was conconcted by the priesthood as a means of mind control, or see hell as a metaphor


perhaps i could take another view and say that 'hell' as we know it today is a concept that slowly evolved over time. Most concepts change and 'evolve'... sort of like how in ancient times a particular God in say... the Egyptian pantheon was revered the same as the rest. 500 years later it is given special importance. 3000 years later Aleister Crowley comes along and creates his own conceptions of this God/goddess... thats just an example of a concept evolving.

It makes more sense to me to abandon the concept of God than it does to only abandon the concept of hell. I've never seen any more evidence for the existence of any sort of God, Christian or otherwise, than for the existence of hell. To me, it seems like they are both equally myths created by humans, albeit for different reasons. Hell seems to be a myth created to control people and make them part of the religious control structure. God, on the other hand, seems like a myth to lend meaning to life for those that feel like they need it. A religious concept would have bound people together back in the early tribal days. These were the humans that survived to pass on their genes, thus we still have the tendency to seek some sort of higher meaning.

Of course, it's possible that I am totally wrong, and that I simply haven't experienced God yet. I sincerely doubt that this is the case, but I'd be a fool to completely dismiss the possibility.

Everyone has experienced God, without God, there is nothing. They just don't recognize what God is yet.

And yes, hell should be abandoned, its just used to manipulate society and harbor fear instead of overcome it. Theres lots of things which should be abandoned, but we are much too human to see whats what.

Everyone has experienced God, without God, there is nothing. They just don't recognize what God is yet.

Yes, I couldn't agree more. Come out from under the rock that is the Judeo-Christian God and experience the power of the unadulterated universal spirit.

Yes, I couldn't agree more. Come out from under the rock that is the Judeo-Christian God and experience the power of the unadulterated universal spirit.

Right, people are always telling me this, but it just seems like insane mumbo-jumbo craziness to me. It doesn't matter whether it's the Christian God or Quetzalcoatl or the Logos or some supreme power, it all just seems like a way to make life seem worth it. All I've seen is life and death, and that's it. There isn't any miraculous and special about it, it's just the way it is. Don't tell me that I've "experienced God", because I just haven't. Don't tell me that I "just haven't recognized it", because that's you trying to impose your seemingly insane world view onto me.

The only way I can see any sort of "God" is in the way that some people think "God" is the sum total of human consciousness, or some bullshit like that. That's just trying to rationalize the ridiculous belief in some sort of higher power that has been ingrained into our species from farther back than we can remember. We're just weak apes with higher intelligence than anything else (maybe), nothing less and nothing more. There is no "God" that I've ever experienced.

I'm sorry if this offends anyone and that truly isn't my intention at all. Like I said before, I don't truly know whether there is a God or not. But personally, I don't like the condescending with which Obbe claims that "without God there is nothing". Maybe he didn't intend it, but it certainly came off that way to me. Why is "God" so necessary?

But that's really getting off topic, and I apologize. I don't want to hijack the thread, and I'm sure this has been discussed into the ground anyways.

If I could ever bring myself to believe in God, I could certainly never bring myself to believe in hell. Hell is so obviously a tool used by an ancient system of controlling people. The fact that such a large number of people really believe in it is somewhat mind boggling to me.

OP, you are so burning in enternal hellfire.

Catholic Church is closer to the Spiritual truths than the Evangelizin Baptist or whatever groups out there. Again, I can only say closer as they are sorce of Christian Orthodox Message expansion. The Philolanka (sp) was a book written by one of the early orthodox church members describing to Monks the way of Christian message, in it are contained SOME of the esoteric (Inner) truths...

Everyone has experienced God, without God, there is nothing. They just don't recognize what God is yet.

That's just a dismissal of personal experience. As if I were to claim that you haven't experienced God, you just think you have.

Most people walk with God they just haven't realized who God is yet. I have said it before I will say it again: "What you are looking for is what is looking" this statement is purposefully vague contemplate the meaning...

I don't really bother myself with anything involving the afterlife (or possible lack of). We will never find out until it's too late, and I'm not going to change the way I live to possibly better my position in some afterlife.

I've gotten into a discussion with a Christian on this topic and she said something like: "It's another amazing act of love. God following through on his promise by sending an ungrateful non-christian to Hell."

She must have had a few abusive boyfriends.

She must have had a few abusive boyfriends.

That just means she can take a punch.

My bet is: Daddy touched her.

I don't really bother myself with anything involving the afterlife (or possible lack of). We will never find out until it's too late, and I'm not going to change the way I live to possibly better my position in some afterlife.

What if you needed to obtain something in this life in order to get an afterlife. To the Gnostic its not about an apoclayptic kingdom coming in the future, because, its already laid out in front of you... You just need to find it now... As the saying goes "What better time to do something than right now?" Its a value on Pro-Active that the Gnostic celebrate in this regard.

What if you needed to obtain something in this life in order to get an afterlife. To the Gnostic its not about an apoclayptic kingdom coming in the future, because, its already laid out in front of you... You just need to find it now... As the saying goes "What better time to do something than right now?" Its a value on Pro-Active that the Gnostic celebrate in this regard.

I keep on hearing about this Gnostic thing. Can someone link me some good, insightful articles on it. Besides wikipedia.

Read Dante's Inferno. Ya won't be disappointed!

--KP

I keep on hearing about this Gnostic thing. Can someone link me some good, insightful articles on it. Besides wikipedia.

http://www.gnosis.org/welcome.html

This website is a great resource, its got books, lectures, online books, articles about gnosticism but becareful there are those who claim to be Gnostic teachers and do not check out, come to me in an email, PM or something like a thread "ATTN: Godfather89" for questions or comments... I will let you know from the get go that I am still and will FOREVER be learning.

I don't really bother myself with anything involving the afterlife (or possible lack of). We will never find out until it's too late, and I'm not going to change the way I live to possibly better my position in some afterlife.

You might consider changing your life in order to "better" your position RIGHT NOW. The present moment is all we have.

You might consider changing your life in order to "better" your position RIGHT NOW. The present moment is all we have.

Thats right, the present moment is eternal now... what you are looking at is eternity this moment last forever, it is a funny paradox: This moment last but a fraction of time and when you realize it its already over and it changed, yet its the only moment that ever existed.

Suddenly this goes against logical thinking, the rule that nothing can and cannot exist at the same time but this moment defies that rule.

It exist because, its the only moment that will exist and it does not exist because before you even realize it the moment became a moment. The paradoxes of life there is a saying in the Gospel of Phillip about this:

"Light and Darkness, life and death, right and left, are brothers of one another. They are inseparable. Because of this neither are the good good, nor evil evil, nor is life life, nor death death." = Life is a Paradox :-p

[QUOTE=Obbe;9615861]Everyone has experienced God, without God, there is nothing. They just don't recognize what God is yet.

QUOTE]

At the risk of sounding dogmatic, I totally agree.

I think that more people would realize this if they dropped the mainstream Abrahamic concept of God, and went for a more Buddhist or Sufi Muslim view.

Humans are inquistive by nature. We question, we seek answers to questions that trouble us.

What is the most troubling question in the history of mankind?

Where do we go when we die?

Warm fuzzy answers: To a paradise, to become one with the universe, to live as pure energy, to come back to earth in a another body.

Not so warm fuzzy answer: Nowhere, we are completely ended. Hell to be punished for all time.

So if you begin to self reflect and ask yourself this question, you will come to a warm fuzzy conclusion. Why? Because we have no evidence for ANY answer to that question and humans are generally optimistic creatures.

As an atheist I would love to believe a warm fuzzy answer, and as I near my own end I will likely reach out to grasp at a warm fuzzy answer, but that does not mean it is right, it means it is only comforting and pleasant.

No more Hell is easy to convince yourself of, no more Heaven is a far greater challenge.

As part of the Creed you agreed to... I think it was you... it stated that: Death provides the final answers (if only momentarily). So let us not focus on our endings but beginnings and where we are going and what we are doing right now. I am not saying that so I can deny the "truth" about what you propose because, thats all it is a proposal:

Christians propose faith in Christ to get to heaven...
Jews actually are unsure about an after life...
Muslims propose submitting to god to get to heaven...
Atheist propose there is nothing after you die...

These are merely proposals because WE CANT BE SURE WITH 100% ACCURACY.

Of course there is no 100% percent accuracy, there is no accuracy or evidence really. I was only suggesting that certain ideas of an afterlife are clearly more appeasing.

This, I think makes it easier to believe.

Since there is no 100% accuracy...........deathbed confession FTW, I always say.

Part of christanity a myth?! SAY IT ISNT SO!

If you are going to pick and choose what parts of a particular faith best suit you or fancy your interest at the time, why not rid yourself of the entire nonsense and come up with your own personal way to live your life?

Why waste your time using a "how to live your life - for dummies" book like the bible, at all?

If you are going to pick and choose what parts of a particular faith best suit you or fancy your interest at the time, why not rid yourself of the entire nonsense and come up with your own personal way to live your life?

Why waste your time using a "how to live your life - for dummies" book like the bible, at all?

LoL, thats what a Gnostic does, ultimately Gnostics believe they are part of that Transcendental God and that phrase "I am what I am" comes into play. My personal beliefs coincide with Gnosticism therefore I choose to be a Gnostic, but whatever title I give my self I am What I am :)

It's great to be told there's no Hell.. but however, after years and years of preaching, and school prayers, and Jehovas witnesses knocking at the door for ever and ever, there's allways that sneaking fear somewhere in my head..
"what IF they're right..?"

I'm hoping god is like father christmas. A great comfort to those who beleive, but harmless to those who dont.

It's great to be told there's no Hell.. but however, after years and years of preaching, and school prayers, and Jehovas witnesses knocking at the door for ever and ever, there's allways that sneaking fear somewhere in my head..
"what IF they're right..?"

I'm hoping god is like father christmas. A great comfort to those who beleive, but harmless to those who dont.

Points made ,and well said. It has been observed many times, by myself and others, that Christianity is a religion of fear and denial. "Good" Christians even call themselves "god-fearing"--but why fear that which created us, sustains us, and loves us unconditionally? It makes no sense. Further,there is no need for a god to judge or punish us--wedo such a splendid job of that ourselves.

Remember--our only enemy is fear, but in the Highest Reality, there is nothing to fear.

Remember--our only enemy is fear, but in the Highest Reality, there is nothing to fear.

Without good how can you know evil?

Without fear how can you know security?

Perhaps it is simple being without these ideas. Simply being. Am I now as enlightened as you?

It's great to be told there's no Hell.. but however, after years and years of preaching, and school prayers, and Jehovas witnesses knocking at the door for ever and ever, there's allways that sneaking fear somewhere in my head..
"what IF they're right..?"

Hmm, as a former Catholic I know that feeling well.

But then I apply the same reasoning to the beliefs of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, and I start to laugh, really hard.

What I would like to know, is the difference between Sheol (OT Jew hell) and Hell (NT Christian hell), if there is even a difference.

Then, I would like to know why God changed Heaven and Hell. Seems to me that Sheol what a sort of prototype hell the authors of the NT used to create their hell.

Of course there is no 100% percent accuracy, there is no accuracy or evidence really. I was only suggesting that certain ideas of an afterlife are clearly more appeasing.

This, I think makes it easier to believe.

Since there is no 100% accuracy...........deathbed confession FTW, I always say.

So as long as we acknowledge this fact, I think all can sit down and eat at the same table.

Part of christanity a myth?! SAY IT ISNT SO!

God Forbid Right... LoL

Without good how can you know evil?

Without fear how can you know security?

Perhaps it is simple being without these ideas. Simply being. Am I now as enlightened as you?

Perhaps in our position (in my belief) perfection will arrive by means of imperfection... WE once did not know, Now we Know and are going to go back to where we came from knowing what at one time we did not know! Tongue twister but I just wanted to through it out there.