They are sincere in their non-belief, so why do they feel compelled to spread the non-gospel of atheism?

Avangelism is the antithesis of evangelism. Atheists are "useful idiots" who serve a purpose in social engineering. They avangelise against all religion, but particularly against Christianity, in a quest to awaken the world to the lack of God and, ultimately, lack of salvation.

You may truly be an unbeliever and be sincere in your unbelief, but you are unknowingly and unwittingly serving a purpose and being deceived and used by people who DO believe in a God. It's just not the God who you rail against. It is a God you never speak against or denounce and it is the God who will fill the void of faith you help create.

Ultimately, the atheist will be destroyed by the "lack of belief" they hold so dear and by the God they help usher in as the only possibility of a "one true God", since Christianity and all other existing religions are obviously insane and worthless.

Let that soak in for a while before you reply.

You are either an ignorant moron, a piss-poor troll, or both.

You are either an ignorant moron, a piss-poor troll, or both.

Nice response from someone who is supposedly so intelligent, scientific, and enlightened. Complete lack of thought for yourself. Typical atheist response.

I am neither a troll nor a moron.

Re-read my op and let it soak in a while, then come back with something more enlightened.

Wow, that is rediculous. You're right, that post IS the real reason why Atheists bash Christianity.

All you do in the OP is make a some unsupported assertions. Although, I agree that people should believe what they believe and accept what others believe with trying to force their beliefs on others.

Let that soak in for a while before you reply.

Alright, I let it soak. Now that I've marinated my mind with your text, I have two comments:

Avangelism

Just ... LOL. Did you think that up by yourself?

Ultimately, the atheist will be destroyed by the "lack of belief" they hold so dear

Destroyed is a strong term. How do you mean? And you put "lack of belief" in quotation marks, as if it is questionable. Are you one of those people who believe that it is impossible to lack belief in God, and that non-belief is equal to denial?

Wow, that is rediculous. You're right, that post IS the real reason why Atheists bash Christianity.

I lold.

Plus, OP wtf are you on about? Your post makes no sense. Rather like Xtianity in that respect.

Wow, that is rediculous. You're right, that post IS the real reason why Atheists bash Christianity.

Christianity, as it is now widely practiced IS in fact eminently bash-worthy, being that it is essentially a religion of fear and denial.

Where they err is in assuming that because of some egregious contradictions and obvious absudities, that there is nothing of value there. Once you get past they myths, for instance, you will find that Jesus had some really useful things to say, not all of which are in the Bible. (See the Gospel of Thomas and the Gospel of Judas, for instance.)

Another error is asuming that the petty and vengeful deity portryed (or libelled) in the Bible is anything like that God that many of us-- including Jewish Kabbalists, Buddhists, Sufi Muslims, and Christian mystics such as St Teresa and St John of the Cross--know and love.

They are sincere in their non-belief, so why do they feel compelled to spread the non-gospel of atheism?

As an atheist I will answer that. Thank you though for providing me with a pre-made answer of your own devising, I will ignore it and chalk it up as more of your fantastical ramblings.

I feel compelled only to tell religion to back the fuck out of my life. To tell religion and theists to stop using government to force your fantastical beliefs upon the unwilling. THE FUCKING DAY religion stops affecting policy that affects my life is the FUCKING DAY I quite telling you Jesus humpers to go fist themselves.

Can you understand that? I ask can b/c I realize the mental illness you have, and realize it prevents you from understanding or accepting anything that upsets the meme itself. Tricky little devil it is.

Let that sink in, and your reply is not neccessary, if you choose to pepper the reply with your magical ideas of the "way things really are".

^I am totally with BP on several points. Gummint has no business having anything to do with religion, and some of Huckabee's recent rantings about the "revealed word of God" as a justification for denying civil rights to women and gays were as sickening as they were scary.

Alright, I let it soak. Now that I've marinated my mind with your text, I have two comments:



Just ... LOL. Did you think that up by yourself?



Destroyed is a strong term. How do you mean? And you put "lack of belief" in quotation marks, as if it is questionable. Are you one of those people who believe that it is impossible to lack belief in God, and that non-belief is equal to denial?

Yes, I came up with avangelism on my own. I was trying to illustrate how atheists sometimes spread their anti-gospel (another term I came up with) as fanatically as some evangelists spread their gospel.

Fanatics are bad regardless of their beliefs, IMO.

While I am not an advocate for this, I mean "destroyed" as in the way a rabid animal is destroyed. I mean literally killed.

I put "lack of belief" in quotation marks to quote the term frequently used by atheists. No sarcasm or disrespect was meant.

I feel compelled only to tell religion to back the fuck out of my life. To tell religion and theists to stop using government to force your fantastical beliefs upon the unwilling. THE FUCKING DAY religion stops affecting policy that affects my life is the FUCKING DAY I quite telling you Jesus humpers to go fist themselves.

Can you understand that? I ask can b/c I realize the mental illness you have, and realize it prevents you from understanding or accepting anything that upsets the meme itself. Tricky little devil it is.

Let that sink in, and your reply is not neccessary, if you choose to pepper the reply with your magical ideas of the "way things really are".

My friend, you have no clue.

The fact is that the people who make the laws and engineer the society that we all live in want to control your beliefs. They always have and always will. Religion and politics will always be intertwined as long as civilization exists. They are two sides of the same coin. They are both means to exercise POWER.

As such, the existence of multiple religious beliefs in a global society is viewed as unsustainable. As our leaders seek to consolidate global political power (European Union and consolidating from there), a consolidation of power exercised through religion also becomes necessary. Since the majority of humans worldwide believe in some form of God, the path of least resistance in consolidating religious power is to establish a unified global religion.

Therefore, in the end atheism cannot be allowed under a consolidation of global religious power. However, it is useful in the process of discrediting all other existing religions- particularly Christianity.

Since the majority of humans worldwide believe in some form of God, the path of least resistance in consolidating religious power is to establish a unified global religion.

Alright! Another man-made religion created with the hopes of absorbing all religions before it. Just what we needed!

Therefore, in the end atheism cannot be allowed under a consolidation of global religious power. However, it is useful in the process of discrediting all other existing religions- particularly Christianity.

I don't think atheists would choose to be allowed under a consolidation of global religious power. I think most atheists would prefer to not even be identified as a partner of the globally powerful and religious.

If you're implying that this new global *SuperReligion* is going to "allow" atheists to hang around only so they can be used as tools for discrediting Christianity (otherwise, they'd just shut those pesky dissenters down for good!), I've got news for you: The SuperReligion will be in the same camp as Christianity, as far as most atheists are concerned. Camp Fruitless & Unnecessary, that is. Most will never join them, and most will never have their non-belief eradicated completely. What then?

I can see it now, a futuristic Universal Super Religion that streamlines all worshipers into one religious sector. This widely accepted religion will be successful, as it caters to a multitude of faiths, all in the interest of maintaining global peace. Is this our future? Gosh, let's hope not - because it sounds like a repeat episode of the Rise of Christianity - conquer, convert, control.

HELLO, backwards progress!

Shouldn't this thread be moved to Conspiracy!?

OP, the world doesn't want to know Truth anymore. Hardly a one wants to pay attention to Reality; it's too much of a guilt trip since God revealed that Christ is His Prince. Every last man knows who the King is, yet pride disables them from admitting it.

They abandon God and worship themselves to soften the burden of conscience on their heart; they lower their standards to that of their hearts' dictates so that their evil deeds can be excused as 'natural'. They don't want God's Mercy to free their conscience from guilt; they want God's death so that they may be free FROM conscience.

Who likes to be reminded that they feel guilty for abusing their God-given abilities? Certainly not those too proud to ask forgiveness!

What good is it to worry about this? To try and spread the Word to ears that cannot hear? To try and shine your light upon blind eyes? To fight with a sword that which is set in stone? This has been known since Daniel, and repeated in detail by John. Only one sword will slay this false god that has arrived; only one sword will remove it from its throne after it has been raised up as 'The One True God', and that is the Highest Word that proceeds from the Mouth of God.

Somehow, with all those creative descriptions you came up with for atheism, you guys have managed to put a very diverse way of thinking into a very small box.

What makes your beliefs more accurate or better than another persons? Who says you christians aren't just here to test an atheists beliefs? Think about it. If that were the case, you would never know.

I don't believe atheists are too proud to believe in god. I think you're too scared to question an idea that has been so ingrained into your thoughts.

Bottom line... any god I've ever heard of requests for his followers to be accepting and forgiving and asks them not to pass judgment. Instead of making up some crazy excuse to try to explain why atheists exist, deal with it the way your supposed god tells you to.

I can see it now, a futuristic Universal Super Religion that streamlines all worshipers into one religious sector. This widely accepted religion will be successful, as it caters to a multitude of faiths, all in the interest of maintaining global peace. Is this our future? Gosh, let's hope not - because it sounds like a repeat episode of the Rise of Christianity - conquer, convert, control.

HELLO, backwards progress!

*chuckles*

It's good to know that it was your "neutrality" and "tolerance" of other religions (really just Christianity) that landed you the moderator position on this forum [/sarcasm]. I was told that my own supposed lack of neutrality and tolerance was what prevented ME from modding it, per LostCause. I don't recall ever being as bitter and derisive toward any other religion as you are towards Christianity (I spent my time trying to disprove them with logic, historical evidence, etc., not simply raking them over the coals every chance I got), and yet there you are, running the show.

Please do not misunderstand me, I don't want you to change. I rather enjoy your candid and raw opinion of the religion, I just wish the staff on &totse would tell the truth: they hate Christians, and will always discriminate against them.

Giving BS reasons for why atheists are allowed to continually attack Christians (when the forum description says such things will not be permitted, not even by moderators [I should think]), and refusing to EVER afford them the equal opportunity of earning the right to moderate the forum is just dishonest and hypocritical.

And before any of the MULTITUDE of atheists on this board, who by far outnumber the Christians, start whining about the few Christians (or posers/trolls) who HAVE been intolerant of other religions, I would ask that they be honest with themselves and think about how few and far between such instances are in comparison.

The plethora of anti-Christianity threads is mind-boggling, and the relentless calls for our heads on silver platters (yes, that is a metaphor, people) go unbridled.

My apologies for what may seem like an attempt to derail this thread. That is not my intention, I just felt that this aberration of &totse's rules and regs needed to be addressed, though I realize my resistance to the current state of affairs of this board will go unheeded.

I am simply perturbed by the fact that Christians will never be treated fairly here, regardless of their knowledge of religion in general, how much they contribute post-wise, how tolerant/neutral/mature they are...based on erroneous rules created by LostCause.

*...waits for the inevitable suggestion that this be addressed in Bitch and Moan instead...* ;)

OP, the world doesn't want to know Truth anymore. Hardly a one wants to pay attention to Reality; it's too much of a guilt trip since God revealed that Christ is His Prince. Every last man knows who the King is, yet pride disables them from admitting it.

They abandon God and worship themselves to soften the burden of conscience on their heart; they lower their standards to that of their hearts' dictates so that their evil deeds can be excused as 'natural'. They don't want God's Mercy to free their conscience from guilt; they want God's death so that they may be free FROM conscience.

Who likes to be reminded that they feel guilty for abusing their God-given abilities? Certainly not those too proud to ask forgiveness!

What good is it to worry about this? To try and spread the Word to ears that cannot hear? To try and shine your light upon blind eyes? To fight with a sword that which is set in stone? This has been known since Daniel, and repeated in detail by John. Only one sword will slay this false god that has arrived; only one sword will remove it from its throne after it has been raised up as 'The One True God', and that is the Highest Word that proceeds from the Mouth of God.

What has happened.....to you? :eek:

My, what a difference a few years makes! LOL

Good to see you, my friend. I hope all is well with you. :) You should hop on to AIM sometime.

Please do not misunderstand me, I don't want you to change. I rather enjoy your candid and raw opinion of the religion, I just wish the staff on &totse would tell the truth: they hate Christians, and will always discriminate against them.

I thought your demodding had more to do with them hating your guts because of your personality, rather than your religion.

This is to the OP:

While I like your unconventional approach to this age-long debate, I have to disagree and say that I believe atheists really bash Christians for the same reason Republicans bash Democrats, and fans of football teams bash fans from other football teams.

Humans like to think that they are right, no matter how they came to embrace a certain opinion or belief (nurture, lifelong study, etc.), and they are inherently wired to battle against those that do not share their opinions or beliefs.

This penomenon is really not that mystifying, and certainly doesn't reside solely within the realm of religious preferences, IMO.

Obviously excluding the immature assholes of each group that bash each other unprovoked, I think the reason atheists tend to "bash" (or disagree with) Christians is because Christians have a tendency to be very pushy when talking about their religion. They also tend to use words like "true" and "right," implying that they refuse to see from another point of view. I can see how it would be extremely frustrating.

The same goes for Christians bashing atheists... which seems to happen more frequently and publicly, but I don't want to get into that. I'll leave that to this forum.

I thought your demodding had more to do with them hating your guts because of your personality, rather than your religion.

Ah, good to see you're still as venemous as ever. ;) New name, same boy.

However, I wasn't just talking about MYSELF, as a Christian. If you need to read it again to allow what I said to fully sink in, please feel free to do so. Otherwise, I am wasting my time.

De-modification was the farthest thing from my mind. AngryFemme and her overtly disdainful comments towards Christianity when she was appointed as moderator of this forum (based on LC's claim that only those who are tolerant and neutral will be given those rights), which is supposed to be intolerant of intolerance (haha), was all that I intended to address.

Lastly, myself and another Christian were posting on this board long before you showed up (unless you were using more of your duplicate accounts), and the discrimination/double standard was the same for us both, and was made apparent from the very first response we ever received.

Bottom line: the forum description is a lie, the moderators do not adhere to it, atheists are allowed to bash Christians as much as they wish without recourse or reprimand, and Christians will never be allowed to moderate this forum regardless of how tolerant they are.

If the tables were turned and this were a Christian dominated forum and atheists were in our position, similar points would be made by them.

Obviously excluding the immature assholes of each group that bash each other unprovoked, I think the reason atheists tend to "bash" (or disagree with) Christians is because Christians have a tendency to be very pushy when talking about their religion. They also tend to use words like "true" and "right," implying that they refuse to see from another point of view. I can see how it would be extremely frustrating.

The same goes for Christians bashing atheists... which seems to happen more frequently and publicly, but I don't want to get into that. I'll leave that to this forum.

1. Atheists are just as pushy on this board, if not ten times more so (I'm being purposefully generous towards atheists in this regard). This leads me to disagree with your attempt at glossing over the egregious mistreatment of this boards' Christian faction.

2. Atheists also present their point of view as being "true" or "right". Who doesn't? Obviously, if a person has a conviction about something, they will think they are right. The issue here is that atheists bash more often than not, which is wholly unproductive, and Christians don't.

3. I don't know what forum you're reading that has led you to arrive at the conclusion that Christians do more bashing than atheists do, but it's not this forum...nor any other religious forum I've ever been on. If you maintain that this is so, I dare say you're not being very honest with yourself.

De-modification was the farthest thing from my mind.

I really find that hard to believe. You say it is about Christians in general, but it just seems to be a pretext for you to bitch about something trivial that happened a very long time ago. Of course, I cannot prove that, so there is no point arguing. All I will say is give it up. By the sounds of things, you get to moderate forums anyway (I'm just teasing now). Anyhow, it is good to see you posting in My God again. Some good, provocative posts may remove the smell of incense floating up from a gap in the floor.

Yes, atheists are very pushy and very irritating on this board. However, I said excluding the immature individuals who go out of their way to provoke people. That would be about 90% of the people who post in this forum and the select few bashing atheists on CNN.

I really find that hard to believe. You say it is about Christians in general, but it just seems to be a pretext for you to bitch about something trivial that happened a very long time ago. Of course, I cannot prove that, so there is no point arguing. All I will say is give it up. By the sounds of things, you get to moderate forums anyway (I'm just teasing now). Anyhow, it is good to see you posting in My God again. Some good, provocative posts may remove the smell of incense floating up from a gap in the floor.

Perhaps I need to reiterate the concept I am attempting to present:

LC claims that moderators are selected for this forum based on their tolerance and neutrality. I am pointing out that this is not so, since I've seen both AngryFemme and JackKetch make extremely intolerant posts about Christians.

Was that more clear?

Basically, I just want to see less of the bashing (from everyone, preferably), and more productive debate. I also want to see forum moderators that have the ability to tell the truth (LC), and not get caught up in this kind of useless rhetoric (AngryFemme/JackKetch).

Thank you for the....eh...warm (?) welcome, though I doubt I will stay for long. Life never has room for totse anymore. :(

Even if more provocative posts result from my return, I vote to keep the incense burning. I love me some Nag Champa. ;)

Yes, atheists are very pushy and very irritating on this board. However, I said excluding the immature individuals who go out of their way to provoke people. That would be about 90% of the people who post in this forum and the select few bashing atheists on CNN.

Then your point was pretty moot, because you're admitting that what I am saying is true. I don't see where we disagree in regard to the number of atheists bashing in comparison to the number of Christians bashing, although you are not addressing the real essence of my posts.

The supposed "requirements" for members to attain moderator-ship of this forum are completely contrived out of thin air, and are not actually applied. If they were, AngryFemme would have been de-modded by now, based upon the fact that many of her posts are extremely intolerant.

What we actually have are two moderators that ARE intolerant of Christianity, and one that is purposefully ambivalent (which is a mite different than "tolerant", but it will suffice).

I just think the forum description should be revised to reflect the actual situation:

"Atheists welcome. Christians enter at their own risk. Intolerance towards Christians will be tolerated. Moderators are not expected to treat members with respect, particularly Christians. No Christian, regardless of how tolerant they are, will ever moderate this forum, because we proudly and openly despise them."

What has happened.....to you? :eek:

My, what a difference a few years makes! LOL

Good to see you, my friend. I hope all is well with you. :) You should hop on to AIM sometime.

In a nutshell:
I exhausted my human resources. Killed my self. Met God. He sent me back. I woke up in a ditch on the side of the road. I went to jail. I went to rehab. I tried to clean up. About a year later, I still found myself lacking. I admitted my shortcomings. Met God again. He healed me of every last shortcoming that brought me torment. As He did for David, He did for me; I've been delivered from my enemies, and it continues time and time again. I still have my faults, but they are ones I can live with. I can live with myself falling prey to cigarettes and slacking in the motivation department every now and then...the old stuff I used to be controlled by, not so much.

It's amazing how sudden His impact upon me was. In the period of about 5 minutes, I lost every urge for drink, for drugs, for prostitutes, for children, for dominance, for lies, for theft, for sloth, for manipulation. Now I get to spend my time helping where it's welcome...or when there isn't any work to be done, coming on here to chat a bit.

You hope rightly: All is well with me.

As ever, I am amazed at His work. I'm glad to call you brother, and look forward to eternity in Heaven with you.

*hugs*

I need to clarify something here: In my haste to reply to this thread, which I was linked to by someone else, I didn't realize that both LC and Jack Ketch have been removed from this forum, and ArmsMerchant has been added.

My apologies for this oversight, though it hardly changes what I've said. In fact, it's even worse than I thought, because ArmsMerchant has been notoriously disrespectful and intolerant of Christians since the moment he began to grace the boards.

Just one of many reasons why I don't prefer to post here anymore.

It's good to know that it was your "neutrality" and "tolerance" of other religions (really just Christianity) that landed you the moderator position on this forum [/sarcasm].

Sarcasm noted, but I'm afraid we view moderating in a different light. I am a user, in the flesh and in Totse *spirit* - and the only effect this forum should ever see as a result of my presence here are the personal opinions I air concerning my disbelief in God. And that's something they'd get regardless if I had the word *Moderator* pinned under my user name, or not. I'd hope that this forum would only have to suffer my position in the form of my opinions posted, versus any action I would be so bold to take by way of ridding the board from what I considered dissenting views of my own. In fact, my only responsibility to this board as a moderator is to serve in a janitorial fashion when/if spam attacks, irrelevant material, or topics that belong in another forum are deleted or moved. I don't see where my "neutrality" concerning religion makes a damn.

I was told that my own supposed lack of neutrality and tolerance was what prevented ME from modding it, per LostCause. I don't recall ever being as bitter and derisive toward any other religion as you are towards Christianity (I spent my time trying to disprove them with logic, historical evidence, etc., not simply raking them over the coals every chance I got), and yet there you are, running the show.

I can't speak for LostCause, because her and I weren't too chummy to begin with, and my presence here is a direct result of her leaving. Had I thought for a second that it be necessary to change my position on religion in order to help jackketch moderate this forum, I never would have volunteered. I just don't believe that it is a moderator's duty to shape the content or direct the flow of conversation in a forum, unless it's to remove non-pertinent material. Lending their own bias to it is going to happen regardless i their status is regular user OR moderator, so again, I don't see how the tag under my name makes a difference when I am (as you put it) "simply raking them over the coals" as I "run the show". Fact is, the show is "running" whether I'm present or not, but my expressed diligence in maintaining personal responsibility for keeping it free of non-pertinent clutter is what (I should hope) made me a good candidate for being a moderator.

Please do not misunderstand me, I don't want you to change. I rather enjoy your candid and raw opinion of the religion, I just wish the staff on &totse would tell the truth: they hate Christians, and will always discriminate against them.

I understand where you're coming from. You feel you were demodded because you were TOO Christian, and feel as though it's a bit unfair that I got modded, because I'm seemingly TOO atheist. You'll get a chuckle out of this and find it ironic, I bet: when jackketch announced he was leaving this forum and didn't find it necessary to ask my opinion on who should replace him, I (disagreeing with his initial nomination) actually spoke to another Christian to see if they would be at all interested in co-modding MGCBT with me, as I felt it would provide a nice balance to the forum (and a great alibi when people like you cried foul ;) ) ... but this person replied that: 1) they didn't have the time or interest, and 2) that they felt that a sense of "balance" shouldn't really be a priority, as it wasn't a moderator's alignment to any religion that should dictate their competency to moderate the religious forum. That made sense. A couple of others declined, jackketch finally got removed on his own insistence, and ArmsMerchant showed interest in this forum, so he took the slot. No big secret that ArmsMerchant and I have had issues in the past concerning my skepticism towards his shamanism, but it never was an issue in Science of the Damned, and ended up working out far better than I expected. We simply didn't let one's beliefs affect the other's.

My ultimate internet moderating fantasy is to co-mod with you, Digital. Think you could make that happen? ;)

Giving BS reasons for why atheists are allowed to continually attack Christians (when the forum description says such things will not be permitted, not even by moderators [I should think]), and refusing to EVER afford them the equal opportunity of earning the right to moderate the forum is just dishonest and hypocritical.

I always viewed the forum description regarding "intolerance will not be tolerated" to be a spin on the intolerant nature of the actual forum name My God Can Beat The Shit Out Of Your God. Beating the shit out of someone else's God isn't exactly the pinnacle of tolerance. I don't think it's even reasonable to expect a forum to invite many different people of different faiths (or lack thereof) to enter into discourse without some level of intolerance for the other's beliefs, as the very nature of religion itself usually dictates that opposing views are to be written off as heretical, blasphemous and offensive to their particular system of belief.

And before any of the MULTITUDE of atheists on this board, who by far outnumber the Christians, start whining about the few Christians (or posers/trolls) who HAVE been intolerant of other religions, I would ask that they be honest with themselves and think about how few and far between such instances are in comparison.

The phenomenon here lies in that a large number of atheists are densely populated on a board with only a handful of actively posting Christians. But that's just here. In The Real, by contrast there are only a handful of atheists for all the multitudes of believers. Can we help it that Christians don't post here as often as atheists do? All I can say is that if I were a Christian, my posting efforts would be going into overtime in order to make up for the lack of Christian presence in a forum I enjoyed participating in. I don't think I'd let a few angsty teenage atheists with potty mouths deter me from making my presence known.

The plethora of anti-Christianity threads is mind-boggling, and the relentless calls for our heads on silver platters (yes, that is a metaphor, people) go unbridled.

But how should they be bridled? Should atheist posts that speak out against Christianity have it's content edited out? Will there be a "No Skeptics Allowed" amendment to the forum description? Will that make for better discussion, or will that make for one-sided conversation? Is it fair to let only people of faith rip on other people of faith, while those without faith aren't allowed to post their opinions?

I just felt that this aberration of &totse's rules and regs needed to be addressed, though I realize my resistance to the current state of affairs of this board will go unheeded.

I am simply perturbed by the fact that Christians will never be treated fairly here, regardless of their knowledge of religion in general, how much they contribute post-wise, how tolerant/neutral/mature they are...based on erroneous rules created by LostCause.

I've good news for you, on three fronts:

1) Lost's alleged erroneous rule isn't in effect now

2) Christians aren't treated unfairly here, unless you consider a difference of opinion being aired that is contrary to the Christian viewpoint as "unfair treatment"

3) If you think they'll re-mod you, and you have interest in moderating this forum, I'd be more than willing to take a sabbatical while you stood in for a spell. I'm no power tripper, I just like helping out when I'm needed. And I just love the idea of sharing, whenever possible.

The supposed "requirements" for members to attain moderator-ship of this forum are completely contrived out of thin air, and are not actually applied. If they were, AngryFemme would have been de-modded by now, based upon the fact that many of her posts are extremely intolerant.

What we actually have are two moderators that ARE intolerant of Christianity, and one that is purposefully ambivalent (which is a mite different than "tolerant", but it will suffice).

I just think the forum description should be revised to reflect the actual situation:

Can you show me where there are "requirements" that must be fulfilled regarding one's tolerance towards a religion, and how it effects their modship? I wasn't aware that Lost Cause had her own criteria for selecting co-mods, so forgive me if I'm out of the loop on the reasons on why you were demodded from here.

I always thought that moderators were considered in lieu of their posting consistently in a forum, willing to be helpful and NOT being a power-tripping jackass. I'd hope that you would agree that I fit this criteria based on that, and be able to put your own personal views on God aside for a moment, and view me as a competent and consistent poster interested in religious discussion, versus a Godless heathen.

I don't understand how you can call me "intolerant" of Christians, unless you consider posts reflecting my non-belief as being intolerant in and of themselves. You'd be pretty hard pressed to find me treating another member with blatant disrespect or outright meanness just because they're a Christian. You don't take into account that the most important people in my life are Christians, and that I have absolutely no problem conducting myself as a fair, respectable, likeable person in their company. I'm able to conduct myself in their presence and treat them with dignity while still maintaining my own personal convictions, and I would hope that my viewpoints presented on this board have been presented with only the intention of defining my non-spiritual position, without having to resort to outright mistreatment of users just because I have this moderating option available to me.

I've never locked, deleted, edited, censored or prohibited a Christian (or any person of faith)'s content on this forum. I still post in the same style I did before I was moderator here. If there were requirements in place that mandated that as a mod, I had to downplay my non-belief in an attempt to make it more cozy around here, I never would have taken the position.

It's funny how I could type: "Christianity isn't for me. I think it's useless, unnecessary, and untrue, and you appear to me to be deluded for believing there's a God" .... and it be labeled intolerant ... yet a Christian could point out how I was going to burn in hell for denying God, and that be considered PC, because that's all a part of their sanctimonious belief system. Should it be deemed "intolerant" if a Christian asserts that the only way to achieve a happy, healthy, productive lifestyle is through God? Because that sure sounds like they're trying to insinuate that MY lifestyle is not happy, nor healthy, nor productive. Are they being ... intolerant of my lifestyle? :eek:

If so, so be it - until they start tampering with my posts or censoring my opinions posted, I'll just chalk it up to difference of opinion and not make a mountain out of a molehill.

Edit:
Let me ask you this - when the Conservatives and the Liberals tear each other's opinions down in P:LRC, is it considered "practicing intolerance", or is it considered airing a difference of opinion? I believe it's the latter, even when they rip on one another for holding such opinions. Should "intolerance not be tolerated" in that forum too, or is it just reserved for the sanctimony of religion?

*takes a huge breath*

Wow...I have been sorely mistaken. This really isn't about me! My biggest issue was LC's bullshit "requirements" for moderators of this forum. It's obvious that she was making things up as she went, just to protect her precious forum from those whom she vehemently disagreed (through a veil of feigned ambivalence, as I said before) with.

That said, I will proceed to address your little novella (I hate you for this). :D

Sarcasm noted, but I'm afraid we view moderating in a different light. I am a user, in the flesh and in spirit - and the only effect this forum should ever see as a result of my presence here are the personal opinions I air concerning my disbelief in God. And that's something they'd get regardless if I had the word *Moderator* pinned under my user name, or not. I'd hope that this forum would only have to suffer my position in the form of my opinions posted, versus any action I would be so bold to take by way of ridding the board from what I considered dissenting views of my own. In fact, my only responsibility to this board as a moderator is to serve in a janitorial fashion when/if spam attacks, irrelevant material, or topics that belong in another forum are deleted or moved. I don't see where my "neutrality" concerning religion makes a damn.

See, I'm in agreement with you. I think that assuming modship shouldn't automatically trump personal opinions. I'd much prefer remaining a contributor, instead of being forced into a flaccid silence in an attempt to appear "tolerant and neutral".

However, she wasn't really trying to achieve what she was asking for, as is obvious in light of yours and Jack Ketch's modship. That you are both strong opponents of Christianity and aren't afraid to attack it proves that she was lying through her teeth. That bothers me.

I can't speak for LostCause, because her and I weren't too chummy to begin with, and my presence here is a direct result of her leaving. Had I thought for a second that it be necessary to change my position on religion in order to help jackketch moderate this forum, I never would have volunteered. I just don't believe that it is a moderator's duty to shape the content or direct the flow of conversation in a forum, unless it's to remove non-pertinent material. Lending their own bias to it is going to happen regardless i their status is regular user OR moderator, so again, I don't see how the tag under my name makes a difference when I am (as you put it) "simply raking them over the coals" as I "run the show". Fact is, the show is "running" whether I'm present or not, but my expressed diligence in maintaining personal responsibility for keeping it free of non-pertinent clutter is what (I should hope) made me a good candidate for being a moderator.
You know something humorous? She threw a hissy fit and almost left the forum when I was moderated, as well. She seems to take issue with sharing what she deems to be her "baby" (the one she largely ignored, and nearly through out the window with the bath water) with other females, particularly intelligent ones.

She even had the gall to ask me to put together threads that went chapter by chapter through the Bible, and basically debunk it myself so that I could prove my "neutrality" and "tolerance" of non-Christians....wtf?

I value your posts, and made it clear that you shouldn't modify your opinion in the slightest. My issue was with LC's hypocrisy. As long as you keep the forum clean, I support your modship 100%, regardless of how much we may disagree on matters metaphysical.

Unfortunately, I didn't see that she'd already left when I brought this up. :(

I understand where you're coming from. You feel you were demodded because you were TOO Christian, and feel as though it's a bit unfair that I got modded, because I'm seemingly TOO atheist.No. I was de-modded for pissing off acidmelt, and because LostCause went absolutely ape shit when he modded me because he didn't "ask her". LOL

Your lack of belief in a supernatural being is quite irrelevant. There are many good moderators that have come and gone through this website that weren't Christian. One is not dependent upon the other for success.

You'll get a chuckle out of this and find it ironic, I bet: when jackketch announced he was leaving this forum and didn't find it necessary to ask my opinion on who should replace him, I (disagreeing with his initial nomination) actually spoke to another Christian to see if they would be at all interested in co-modding MGCBT with me, as I felt it would provide a nice balance to the forum (and a great alibi when people like you cried foul ;)) ... but this person replied that: 1) they didn't have the time or interest, and 2) that they felt that a sense of "balance" shouldn't really be a priority, as it wasn't a moderator's alignment to any religion that should dictate their competency to moderate the religious forum. That made sense. A couple of others declined, jackketch finally got removed on his own insistence, and ArmsMerchant showed interest in this forum, so he took the I agree with your thought process in this regard, though any person with a differing opinion than yours would have been sufficient. I think there does need to be a variety (a slew of atheists have been running this place for years), but it doesn't necessarily have to default to a Christian. It would make some sense, considering the fact that Christianity is spoken of more often than not here, but at the same time it isn't essential because, as you have succinctly pointed out, a good moderator does their job, regardless of their opinions. The job is simple, clearcut, and needs littleexplanation.

My ultimate internet moderating fantasy is to co-mod with you, Digital. Think you could make that happen? ;)If you're mocking me, you got a laugh (really). If not, make sure acidmelt doesn't know that you hold this position, because you will be demonized, henceforth. LOL

Also, nothing could make it happen. acidmelt would never allow it.

I always viewed the forum description regarding "intolerance will not be tolerated" to be a spin on the intolerant nature of the actual forum name My God Can Beat The Shit Out Of Your God.One would think that, if they were logical.

However, the description has been reinforced by LC many times in the past, when she used it to chastise me and other Christians regarding our passion for teaching about Christianity. Basically, just being Christian made us intolerant, in her opinion.

However, I DO think it should be a legitimate policy, and not just a joke. No one should be ridiculed for their beliefs. Disagreed with respectfully, sure...but that's really not something that happens with frequency on this forum, particularly when it comes to Christians.

Beating the shit out of someone else's God isn't exactly the pinnacle of tolerance. I don't think it's even reasonable to expect a forum to invite many different people of different faiths (or lack thereof) to enter into discourse without some level of intolerance for the other's beliefs, as the very nature of religion itself usually dictates that opposing views are to be written off as heretical, blasphemous and offensive to their particular system of belief.Actually, a forum author CAN control it to the point of forcing such niceties. There is another website I have visited in the past where Evolution and Creationism are debated, and posters simply aren't allowed to call each other names, post threads that are derogatory/defamatory, etc. They are REQUIRED to treat each other with respect, or they can go elsewhere. While this may seem like an infringement of free speech rights, any site owner has the right to decide how the members are allowed to conduct themselves. In the past, &totse and its staff have made it clear that bashing is totally acceptable, but only for some (Christians don't qualify). I am merely trying to point out the hypocrisy of this, and hopefully see some changes.

The phenomenon here lies in that a large number of atheists are densely populated on a board with only a handful of actively posting Christians. But that's just here. Agreed. The high concentration of atheists here is indeed the reason for the very obvious discrimination against Christians by &totse staff (not you), because they too are atheists, and are almost inherently sympathetic to those who are like-minded, A.K.A. biased. All people are guilty of this, regardless of the medium, which is why I feel that a variety of opinions would be valuable when it comes to running this forum, though I must say again that it is not required in order to have it moderated efficiently.

In The Real, by contrast there are only a handful of atheists for all the multitudes of believers.We'd have to start a completely different debate on this...most "Christians" aren't Christians. They are what I like to call "church Christians". Outside of church, they act like atheists (which I am not asserting is either good or bad...only that they go about their daily lives differently as a result of their opposing world view).

Christianity is increasingly less about a personal relationship with God, and increasingly more about culture. "I check the 'Christian' box on my medical paperwork, but I'll be damned if I don't go out and get wasted on Ecstacy and sleep around on Friday nights!"

Being the kind of Christian that I am, I have experienced firsthand the overwhelming increase of atheism in this country, and subsequently a sharp rise in animosity towards the religion.

I really dislike the idea that atheists should be allowed to become as vile, hateful, disrespectful, and completely intolerant of Christians simply because they are "in the minority"...but I digress.

Can we help it that Christians don't post here as often as atheists do? Of course not, but the frequency in which atheists post here is not the issue. It's the content of their posts that is, if in fact "intolerance will not be tolerated", which is something LC used against Christians all the time, simply for disagreeing.

All I can say is that if I were a Christian, my posting efforts would be going into overtime in order to make up for the lack of Christian presence in a forum I enjoyed participating in. For 3 years I did just that. I burned out. I have a will of iron, and even I couldn't withstand the constant barrage of intolerance I experienced on this board.

Participating became a chore, not something enjoyable. I think that's a shame, because it seemed like many wanted me to stay (per the emails I received), even though they didn't agree with me (I do have to give some people credit for being able to maintain an acceptable level of maturity during the process of debating against Christians). Because no one was willing to stand up and say that it was no longer acceptable to bash Christians relentlessly, most of us left.

I think that is good enough reason to change the current policy, which seems to be that anything goes. *shrugs* I think you'd attract some valuable posters again (more than there are now...I would never claim that there aren't ANY here at all), which would improve the forum as a whole.

I don't think I'd let a few angsty teenage atheists with potty mouths deter me from making my presence known.I don't think anyone could honestly claim that after 3 years and 4,000 something odd posts in this forum that I was "deterred". ;)

Becoming disinterested in the constant abuse cannot be likened to being deterred.

If you're trying to goad me into a full-fledged return by trivializing how difficult it was to be that hated on a daily basis, it's not going to work. :pI'm thinking about it, but there are many factors to consider.

But how should they be bridled? Should atheist posts that speak out against Christianity have it's content edited out?See, now you're just completely changing the focus of this conversation. Shame on you, girl! ;)

Speak out they should, without hindrance. That is much different than what most of them actually do, which is ad hom themselves to death without ever providing a shred of supporting evidence for their assertions/opinions. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule (see: AngryFemme, Rust, truckfxr, etc.). Those that don't seem to come here just to take out their aggression towards their parents, who are most likely "Christian". That's what I think.

There's really no other reason for 14 year old kids to come here and rant and rave at a couple of well-meaning Christians, using every expletive imaginable as a foundation for their argument, that I can think of. I think that allowing this to occur is a bad idea, and the results are less than desirable. It's stagnant up in here, to say the least. LOL

Will there be a "No Skeptics Allowed" amendment to the forum description?Nope. I never remotely suggested that there should be an amendment to that effect.

Will that make for better discussion, or will that make for one-sided conversation?When all the serious Christian debaters have abandoned the forum because they just can't stand the intolerance anymore, I think it's safe to say that it is the CURRENT policy that has caused the very sad degradation of this forum into just that: a one-sided circle jerk.

If I had zero knowledge of the history of this forum and came here as a Christian, I wouldn't even bother posting, because it's very clear what kind of disrespectful banter is allowed to go on here. In order to promote productive, intellectual debate, it should not be allowed to continue, IMO. Like I said earlier, I've seen it in practice, and it truly works.

Is it fair to let only people of faith rip on other people of faith, while those without faith aren't allowed to post their opinions?First of all, I never would have expected fallacious questions from you. There is very LITTLE reason to fear that this would ever become a reality on a site like totse.

People without faith in any metaphysical being come here in spades. They are here to abuse Christians, mostly, and feed off of each other. There doesn't seem to be any other purpose, and they certainly aren't here learn anything. This is a direct result of the current policy, which is why I believe it should be changed.

I have not once claimed that Christians ought to have rights here that atheists do not. I am obviously coming from the position that we should all be respectful of one another, and cease with the bashing.

Also, I never insinuated that atheists ought to be prevented from giving their opinion. Those that can do so without attacking Christians aren't the issue. I think I've made that more than clear.

I've good news for you, on three fronts:

1) Lost's alleged erroneous rule isn't in effect nowHaving seen that she has been removed from this forum, I am willing to believe that.

2) Christians aren't treated unfairly here, unless you consider a difference of opinion being aired that is contrary to the Christian viewpoint as "unfair treatment"If my vast experience with this forum was littered with mere "differences of opinion", I never would have said anything in the first place.

A difference of opinion is AWESOME. That's debate! What happens here is generally not just a difference of opinion, but a disgusting display of bigotry and hatred towards Christians. I'm woefully disappointed that you don't see that, and am forced to believe that this is a result of your own personal bias. No offense. :(

Please don't make me spend the next several hours composing a post full of examples of the kind of attacks I am referring to. You know I can. MGCBTSOOYG has an abysmal record, as far as tolerance for Christians is concerned.

3) If you think they'll re-mod you, and you have interest in moderating this forum, I'd be more than willing to take a sabbatical while you stood in for a spell. I'm no power tripper, I just like helping out when I'm needed. And I just love the idea of sharing, whenever possible.If you're moderating the way you ought to be, then there is no need to replace you!

I would never stand for your removal, just so I could take the helm. I don't even post here anymore. LOL I just stopped in, and noticed the overt hypocrisy in the modding of yet another atheist that is pretty intolerant of Christians when I was told that "tolerance" of other peoples beliefs was the most important factor in the nomination of a member for the position, per LostCause.

And now that I see ArmsMerchant is a mod here too...I mean, that's just mind-boggling.

Anyway, thank you for your response. It was insightful, as always.

AngryFemme, I could answer your last post in it's entirety, but then I'd just be repeating myself. You seem determined to turn this conversation into something it's not: an attempt on my part to silence atheists. That wasn't my point at all. I hope putting it that way helps you realize that.

I personally don't care which forum it is, we should all try to be respectful of each others beliefs, even while we disagree. I've not always been the pillar of tolerance, and I am ashamed of it. I don't intend to let it happen anymore, because I try to practice what I preach (no pun intended!).

I do, however, think that people take their faith in [insert religion, deity, lack of deity, whatever here] very personally, and it is generally more hurtful to have someone attack you and tell you that you should die and that you're a whore and that everyone who believes as you do is responsible for every possible negative thing that's ever happened to humanity than it is to have them attack your political beliefs...more seems to be at stake.

Imagine that a person is a Muslim. Which would offend them more: to burn their Qu'ran, or to burn their country's flag? Most people seem to be far more passionate about their religious beliefs (or lack thereof) than they are about their politics.

AngryFemme, I could answer your last post in it's entirety, but then I'd just be repeating myself.

Funny, I was just replying to your last post when my computer died. I felt jubilant that I had saved my extreme long-windedness to a word doc, but quickly realized (like you just did) that the bulk of it was repetitive of my prior post. I said to hell with it. :D

You seem determined to turn this conversation into something it's not: an attempt on my part to silence atheists. That wasn't my point at all. I hope putting it that way helps you realize that.

I realize that a little more now, and you have to forgive me for not being completely in the know about the circumstances surrounding your co-modding with Lost Cause. I'd heard rumors regarding your de-modding, but it was nowhere close to all that. I will say that your version sounds much more believable, all things considered. Thanks for sharing it.

I personally don't care which forum it is, we should all try to be respectful of each others beliefs, even while we disagree.

I think it would be impossible for you to respect my beliefs, as they are in direct contradiction to what you feel is respectable, as a Christian. And I don't think you should be forced to respect my beliefs, nor I yours - but that we should respect each other, as human beings, while we make it our exercise to debate our conflicting beliefs.

If encouraging forum niceties between posters and enforcing a non-bashing rule were the policies of the Totse owner and administrators, I can assure you that I'd follow it to the letter, as a moderator. But that's just not the case here.

Totse happens to have a high tolerance for kidiots expressing themselves in whatever manner they choose. And unfortunately, unless this becomes an adult-only board that has strict posting guidelines, kidiocy will reign supreme. You probably would be surprised to learn that I am not a huge raving supporter of current Totse policy and procedure. I think there's LOTS that could be done to improve the forum as a whole, some of which is along the same lines you've detailing here. I'm currently fighting a losing battle concerning Child Porn in the general section, though I've fully realized that my opinion has very little bearing on Totse policy, and most likely never will effect anything. But like you and your loyal defense of Christianity, I'm going to exhaust every single keystroke I can muster forth debating it until I eventually grow tired of being outnumbered and decide to just let it go entirely.

I've not always been the pillar of tolerance, and I am ashamed of it. I don't intend to let it happen anymore, because I try to practice what I preach (no pun intended!).

Likewise, and with no pun implied either. :)

I did want to address one other thing you mentioned, though:

I think that is good enough reason to change the current policy, which seems to be that anything goes. *shrugs* I think you'd attract some valuable posters again (more than there are now...I would never claim that there aren't ANY here at all), which would improve the forum as a whole.

I don't think that the current policy should be considered as "anything goes". Making a thread titled "Christians Suck" with the content being HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!1111 would get closed in a heartbeat, or at the very least, moved to HB.

People without faith in any metaphysical being come here in spades. They are here to abuse Christians, mostly, and feed off of each other. There doesn't seem to be any other purpose, and they certainly aren't here learn anything. This is a direct result of the current policy, which is why I believe it should be changed.



I think even if current policy was changed that prohibited verbal abuse of other posters, atheists would still rip on Christians, and Christians would still rip on atheists. Some people find it unusual that an atheist would be interested in religious discussion, but forget that sometimes religious discussion is what reinforced their non-belief, to begin with. I for one find the Belief in Belief to be very interesting, and I do believe that atheists can learn from Christians and vice-versa.

Policing a poster's disrespectful tendencies and unkind behavior on here towards other posters is something that has to be done light-handedly due to the overwhelming leniency this site is known for. Trying to steer discussion towards civil discourse versus expletive-laden personal attacks can be quite a task, but should definitely be encouraged. And you have to admit, there was a slight charm to be found in the likes of old posters such as Snoopy and buttthrax, as they usually tended to lend just enough vicious comical absurdity to keep people from falling asleep at the debating wheel. :D

They are sincere in their non-belief, so why do they feel compelled to spread the non-gospel of atheism?

Avangelism is the antithesis of evangelism. Atheists are "useful idiots" who serve a purpose in social engineering. They avangelise against all religion, but particularly against Christianity, in a quest to awaken the world to the lack of God and, ultimately, lack of salvation.

You may truly be an unbeliever and be sincere in your unbelief, but you are unknowingly and unwittingly serving a purpose and being deceived and used by people who DO believe in a God. It's just not the God who you rail against. It is a God you never speak against or denounce and it is the God who will fill the void of faith you help create.

Ultimately, the atheist will be destroyed by the "lack of belief" they hold so dear and by the God they help usher in as the only possibility of a "one true God", since Christianity and all other existing religions are obviously insane and worthless.

Let that soak in for a while before you reply.

Interesting how my thread has been derailed.

Much more interesting, now my thread has been derailed.

*fixed*

I just think the forum description should be revised to reflect the actual situation:

You mean your utter fabrication of the situation....

1. Christians can and have moderated this forum.

Jackketch is a Christian. He moderated this forum. You yourself were a mod of this forum for a short preiod of time. Yes, you were demodded, but not because you were Christian.

The only real atheist that has been a moderator of 'My God...' is AngryFemme (maybe LostCause but she believed in such a weird mixture of things it's pretty hard to say).

Morever, can we apply this absurd accusations to other forums? P:LR&C, for example, has had an American right wing moderator for ages. The last three have all been right wing and American, and if that wasn't enough now there are two of them! Should we re-write its description to say that leftists can't be moderators there? Or would that be a very silly and childish comment to make?

2. Intolerance towards anybody, Christians or not, is tolerated. That's pretty much how Totse works. If you think that threads intolerant of atheists are somehow closed or forbidden, you're mistaken.

You might see more threads with topics against Christianity, but that's because non-Christians outnumber Christians in this forum, and Christianity is inescapable in most Western Societies, which means non-Christians are more likely to have gripes with Christians than, lets say, Wiccans.

What makes you, OP, so different from the athiests that bash christianity.

Also, aren't you a little arrogant in thinking that Athiests only bash Chritianity. I think Islam and Catholicism, and just about every protestant, are equally as dumb.

Spirituality is respectable, and I like those people better :D

You waste your time by preaching to those you don't listen to. And Athiests waste their time preaching to people aswell.

I could show you endeniable facts and evidence that contradict biblical texts and stories, and you would call me a heretic. How dare I question what you believe? How dare I be more intelligent?

I dare :D

You choose ignorance. See ya around :P

Then your point was pretty moot, because you're admitting that what I am saying is true. I don't see where we disagree in regard to the number of atheists bashing in comparison to the number of Christians bashing, although you are not addressing the real essence of my posts.

The supposed "requirements" for members to attain moderator-ship of this forum are completely contrived out of thin air, and are not actually applied. If they were, AngryFemme would have been de-modded by now, based upon the fact that many of her posts are extremely intolerant.

What we actually have are two moderators that ARE intolerant of Christianity, and one that is purposefully ambivalent (which is a mite different than "tolerant", but it will suffice).



1. No, I was saying that the christians and atheists who go out of their way to bash each other aren't included. The majority of Christians I know tend to extend their religion to every aspect of their lives, and make it known. When somebody brings up religion and asks what I believe in, it's only awkward when I'm describing it to Christians, because they tend to act as if I somehow don't deserve to be graced with their company.... and I'm not *really* an atheist, depending on how you'd define certain parts of my beliefs.

If the mods were really intolerant, every pro-christian thread would be closed.

You mean your utter fabrication of the situation....

Nope. I meant precisely what I said. You are still woefully incompetent at putting words into my mouth.

1. Christians can and have moderated this forum.

Jackketch is a Christian. He moderated this forum.Jack is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a Christian. I will not go into the list of reasons why I know this to be true, because it will become yet another tangent in this thread.

You yourself were a mod of this forum for a short preiod of time. Yes, you were demodded, but not because you were Christian.I was modded without LostCause's knowledge, based on a nomination from a third party. acidmelt simply trusted that third party's opinion, and modded me. Had he known I was a Christian, and had he run his intent to mod me here to LostCause, it NEVER would have happened. It was a complete fluke, and everyone knows it.

I never said I was demodded because I was a Christian, and have been very open about why I was demodded. That you choose to ignore the posts I have made with said information is your problem, not mine.

The only real atheist that has been a moderator of 'My God...' is AngryFemme (maybe LostCause but she believed in such a weird mixture of things it's pretty hard to say).Before LostCause, there was an atheist moderator. She and he had some history, and he had her added to the forum.

Really, the point remains that Christians aren't welcome here, and particularly not in the moderator position.

Morever, can we apply this absurd accusations to other forums? P:LR&C, for example, has had an American right wing moderator for ages. The last three have all been right wing and American, and if that wasn't enough now there are two of them! Should we re-write its description to say that leftists can't be moderators there? Or would that be a very silly and childish comment to make?I've only ever seen Sephiroth and AeroDynamic. They are both conservatives, yes, but they are in the MINORITY, and they DON'T disrespect other people or show intolerance towards them (by editing posts, closing threads they are politically opposed to).

The difference is that here, in My God, Christians are the minority, and are relentlessly attacked...it's been going on for years, including by moderators. Anyone denying this obvious fact is lying to themselves, completely blind, has an agenda, or just isn't smart enough to know the difference between tolerance and intolerance.

I never said such a policy (exclusion of a certain group of people from becoming staff members) wouldn't be silly and childish. I am saying that it was happening here, based on rules that LostCause herself initiated. Yes, it was silly and childish. Hence, why I had a problem with it.

2. Intolerance towards anybody, Christians or not, is tolerated. That's pretty much how Totse works. If you think that threads intolerant of atheists are somehow closed or forbidden, you're mistaken.Of this I am well aware. You were among the first to show me just how intolerant totseans can be.

I think it should be fair across the board. If a Christian thread is all about bashing atheists, then it should be held to the same standard as it would if the opposite should occur. The problem is, Christians hardly ever DO that, whereas atheists seem to try every chance they get. It's fun to Christian bash on this forum. Bashing Christians seems to be the sole purpose of this forum, and it's pathetic.

You might see more threads with topics against Christianity, but that's because non-Christians outnumber Christians in this forum, and Christianity is inescapable in most Western Societies, which means non-Christians are more likely to have gripes with Christians than, lets say, Wiccans.Thanks for sharing, though I didn't ask you to explain this phenomena to me. I was fully aware of this from the moment I began posting here, so many years ago.

However, that is not the ONLY reason there is so much Christian bashing going on here. It's because it has been allowed, and is encouraged (a good example of this encouragement would be the like-mindedness of the forum moderators with the atheist majority). I don't see that as productive if you want to get into a really good debate, and create a forum where people of intelligence converge to exchange ideas, without fear of being trampled by the mob effect.

Christians...tend to act as if I somehow don't deserve to be graced with their company.... and I'm not *really* an atheist, depending on how you'd define certain parts of my beliefs.

Well, I am truly sorry you have experienced that kind of treatment, but I don't know ANY Christians like that. If you're referring to Catholics, say so. If it's another denomination, say so. Making broad, sweeping generalizations does nothing for your argument.

I could understand it if a Catholic treated you that way, for example. Otherwise, Christians are commanded to love everyone else more than they love themselves.

If the mods were really intolerant, every pro-christian thread would be closed.

No, that would be breaking the rules entirely.

Really, the point remains that Christians aren't welcome here, and particularly not in the moderator position.

That's just untrue. Anyone is welcome here. If they can't take the heat, I'd probably advise them to stay out of the kitchen. Other *fringe* websites with lenient rules that host religious forums probably experience the same thing, depending on how the forum participants are populated according to their faith.

I've only ever seen Sephiroth and AeroDynamic. They are both conservatives, yes, but they are in the MINORITY, and they DON'T disrespect other people or show intolerance towards them (by editing posts, closing threads they are politically opposed to).

Has that ever happened here, to your knowledge?

The difference is that here, in My God, Christians are the minority, and are relentlessly attacked...it's been going on for years, including by moderators.

Please show me where a moderator has relentlessly "attacked" a Christian on here. If you're going to pull up some shit from Lost Cause back in the day, I'll have to strongly advise you (with the most heartfelt sincerity) to get out of the past. Grudges are unhealthy, y'know?

I think it should be fair across the board. If a Christian thread is all about bashing atheists, then it should be held to the same standard as it would if the opposite should occur. The problem is, Christians hardly ever DO that, whereas atheists seem to try every chance they get. It's fun to Christian bash on this forum. Bashing Christians seems to be the sole purpose of this forum, and it's pathetic.

It is fair across the board. There's been atheist-hate threads, and they weren't shut down or edited for content or the OP reprimanded in any way. Freedom to post whatever you want as long as it pertains to religious discussion is the standing rule. What are the moderators to do, put a cap on how many times an atheist is allowed to comment negatively about Christianity? That would be over-policing and impossible to manage, IMO. Not to mention ridiculous and unnecessary.

However, that is not the ONLY reason there is so much Christian bashing going on here. It's because it has been allowed, and is encouraged (a good example of this encouragement would be the like-mindedness of the forum moderators with the atheist majority).

Digital, do you think the moderators get together and discuss strategies of how to best divide the forum so that as much conflict and static can go down as possible, with the intent being to give the Christians a really hard time? If there were two Christian moderators here, and this forum still consisted of more atheists than Christians, I don't see how the Christian moderators would be held responsible for keeping a quota going on how much Christian-bashing was allowed. Moderators don't control the subject matter, unless it's not pertinent subject matter within the forum it's posted in!

I don't see that as productive if you want to get into a really good debate, and create a forum where people of intelligence converge to exchange ideas, without fear of being trampled by the mob effect.

If you were Queen for a Day, how would you deal with this anti-Christian "mob effect" on this board? I'd really be interested to hear what your strategy would be.

Nope. I meant precisely what I said. You are still woefully incompetent at putting words into my mouth.

I didn't put words in your mouth. If anything we disagree on what the actual situation of the forum is. I believe what you stated is an utter fabrication; and exaggeration that does not represent the actual state of affairs. That's not me putting words in your mouth; please don't accuse me of that.


Jack is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a Christian. I will not go into the list of reasons why I know this to be true, because it will become yet another tangent in this thread.1. Your self-serving definitions of Christianity - which, of course, conveniently have you being a Christian - don't suddenly refute the fact that Jackketch is a Christian.

2. Even then, what ultimately would be important is not whether you think he's Christian, but whether the administration thought he was Christian at the time they made him a mod of this forum. Are you claiming acidmelt (or Zok - whoever made him a mod of 'My God...' ) didn't think jackk was Christian? If so, prove it. If not, then your claim regarding Christians not being modded to this forum remains baseless.


I was modded without LostCause's knowledge, based on a nomination from a third party. acidmelt simply trusted that third party's opinion, and modded me. Had he known I was a Christian, and had he run his intent to mod me here to LostCause, it NEVER would have happened. It was a complete fluke, and everyone knows it.Bullshit. You have absolutely no way of knowing that. That is you making wild accusations without anything to back them up. You do not know that had he known you were a Christian, you wouldn't be modded. I'm willing to bet you have no fucking clue if he knew you were a Christian or not! Your very name already alludes to your Christian beliefs, not to mention your posts here.

Were you even asked if you were a Christian when you were modded? Was Sephiroth asked when he suggested you? If not, that is further proof against your claims because if they were so against Christian moderating the forum, they would undoubtedly ask if the person who they were modding - a person named Digital_Savior for pete's sake - was a Christian or not. If they didn't, then obviously whether you were a Christian or not wasn't important to them; how good a moderator you would be - presumably what Sephiroth talked about when he suggested you - was.



I never said I was demodded because I was a Christian, and have been very open about why I was demodded. That you choose to ignore the posts I have made with said information is your problem, not mine.Did I say you said you were demodded because you were a Christian? No I did not. I simply reiterated that fact because it is relevant (i.e. had you actually been demodded because you were a Christian it would be an example of the anti-Christian bias in the administration you keep complaining about).


Really, the point remains that Christians aren't welcome here, and particularly not in the moderator position.A point which you haven't even come close to making.

1. You have not proven that the administration thought jackketch wasn't a Christian.

2. You haven't proved that you wouldn't have been modded if they knew you were a Christian.

3. You haven't proven the administration encourages all the anti-Christian behavior you complain about.


I've only ever seen Sephiroth and AeroDynamic. They are both conservatives, yes, but they are in the MINORITY, and they DON'T disrespect other people or show intolerance towards them (by editing posts, closing threads they are politically opposed to).What does that have to do with the fact that there hasn't been a leftist moderator on the Politics forum in ages (Nox came before Sephiroth if I'm not mistaken)? Nothing. If we were to use your ridiculous "logic" we could conclude the same thing you're doing here, and say that left-wing moderators are not allowed in the forum, when that is simply not true.


The difference is that here, in My God, Christians are the minority, and are relentlessly attacked...it's been going on for years, including by moderators. Anyone denying this obvious fact is lying to themselves, completely blind, has an agenda, or just isn't smart enough to know the difference between tolerance and intolerance.So? The people on totse - regulars, moderators and administrators - are free to "attack" anyone they want. That's free speech. That does not support the outrageous allegations you keep making; namely that Christian moderators are not welcome in this particular forum.


I never said such a policy (exclusion of a certain group of people from becoming staff members) wouldn't be silly and childish.Great! So then we can say that the Politics forum is excluding left-wing regulars from being moderators of that forum?


I think it should be fair across the board. If a Christian thread is all about bashing atheists, then it should be held to the same standard as it would if the opposite should occur. The problem is, Christians hardly ever DO that, whereas atheists seem to try every chance they get. It's fun to Christian bash on this forum. Bashing Christians seems to be the sole purpose of this forum, and it's pathetic.That would be an argument in favor changing the type of threads/comments made here or the overall mood of the forum, not of your baseless claims.

They have every right to be intolerant of whoever they want. That's free speech. That has absolutely nothing to do with the baseless claims you made.

Nobody here has denied that Christians are attacked. They are. I've given one explanation for why they are. What is being contested is your ridiculous accusation that Christians would not be allowed to moderate the forum. That's an asinine claim.


However, that is not the ONLY reason there is so much Christian bashing going on here. It's because it has been allowed, and is encouraged (a good example of this encouragement would be the like-mindedness of the forum moderators with the atheist majority). I don't see that as productive if you want to get into a really good debate, and create a forum where people of intelligence converge to exchange ideas, without fear of being trampled by the mob effect.1. It is allowed because it not break the rule. Being intolerant of others is not against the rules in and of itself, so this is hardly their fault.

2. The moderators here having non-Christian beliefs has nothing to do with encouraging other people to bash Christians. In fact, they routinely close threads that lacked content when they were simply bashing Christians, which refutes your accusation that these things are encouraged (i.e. if they were encouraging such behavior they wouldn't be so quick to close threads bashing Christians)

http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=1811990

http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=1811970

http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=1812101

http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=1812111

There are plenty more cases just like those.

I only read that OP post but I can say as a atheist that the only reason I don't belive is because there is no proof. Give me proof and I will belive. Otherwise its just the same as the easter bunny but with more followers.

What makes you, OP, so different from the athiests that bash christianity.

Also, aren't you a little arrogant in thinking that Athiests only bash Chritianity. I think Islam and Catholicism, and just about every protestant, are equally as dumb.

Spirituality is respectable, and I like those people better :D

You waste your time by preaching to those you don't listen to. And Athiests waste their time preaching to people aswell.

I could show you endeniable facts and evidence that contradict biblical texts and stories, and you would call me a heretic. How dare I question what you believe? How dare I be more intelligent?

I dare :D

You choose ignorance. See ya around :P

I never said anything close to what you claim I said. I never claimed to be a Christian, nor did I do any preaching.

Please point out a post where an atheist bashes, or even criticizes, Islam or anything but Christianity on this forum. I have never seen one. Although it could be there I doubt it.

Please point out a post where an atheist bashes, or even criticizes, Islam or anything but Christianity on this forum. I have never seen one. Although it could be there I doubt it.

The reason these posts don't exist is largely because Christianity is the religion that seems to have the biggest problem with atheists - there are loads of examples of xtians hating, insulting and attacking atheists, treating them as outcasts etc. I'm not saying this doesn't happen in other religions as well, but christianity is a big offender.

Also, &T is an english language site - xtianity is vastly prevalent in english speaking areas, so it is the immediate problem, and not other religions

The reason these posts don't exist is largely because Christianity is the religion that seems to have the biggest problem with atheists - there are loads of examples of xtians hating, insulting and attacking atheists, treating them as outcasts etc. I'm not saying this doesn't happen in other religions as well, but christianity is a big offender.

Also, &T is an english language site - xtianity is vastly prevalent in english speaking areas, so it is the immediate problem, and not other religions

Ok, this brings up a few thoughts:

1. Do you really believe, as an atheist, that the people who call themselves Christians who hate, attack, and insult you are really Christians? If you read about the teachings of Jesus (not the dogma of the Church), then you know these people are not following the teachings of Christ.

2. Some of those people who attack you who call themselves Christians have been deceived to believe that by attacking atheists or blowing up abortion clinics, they are doing God's work. Someone else's twisted beliefs have been fed to them and they accept them as their own belief without question. They do not question because they are both spiritually and mentally weak. They are not doing God's work, but are doing the work of someone else.

3. Just as these people have been deceived, it is also possible to deceive someone who does not believe in the supernatural. Not in the exact same way, but still can be done.

If you feel the need to attack someone, then I can understand attacking these people who call themselves Christians but do not follow the teachings of Christ (love your neighbor as yourself, love your enemy, etc.). However, going beyond that and attacking Christianity as a whole does nothing to advance your cause of defending yourselves. So why do it? Denying ANY validity to the teachings of Jesus only discredits you. How can any person of reason deny the validity of "do to others what you would have them do to you"?

They are sincere in their non-belief, so why do they feel compelled to spread the non-gospel of atheism?

Avangelism is the antithesis of evangelism. Atheists are "useful idiots" who serve a purpose in social engineering. They avangelise against all religion, but particularly against Christianity, in a quest to awaken the world to the lack of God and, ultimately, lack of salvation.

You may truly be an unbeliever and be sincere in your unbelief, but you are unknowingly and unwittingly serving a purpose and being deceived and used by people who DO believe in a God. It's just not the God who you rail against. It is a God you never speak against or denounce and it is the God who will fill the void of faith you help create.

Ultimately, the atheist will be destroyed by the "lack of belief" they hold so dear and by the God they help usher in as the only possibility of a "one true God", since Christianity and all other existing religions are obviously insane and worthless.

Let that soak in for a while before you reply.

Uh no. I bash it because it is fake. Fuckin idiot.

^

a. Saying they aren't following the teachings of Christ isn't that simple. I'd bet they would claim similar things of those who you claim do follow the teachings.

b. The golden rule predates Christianity. One can be in favor of that moral guidelines while still finding faults in Christianity as a whole.

A Christian can practice the golden rule while promoting other things that affect other people negatively. For example, they can be against Science - like so many creationists in America are.

Another example would be how Christians believe their god is omnipotent and omniscient and yet allows suffering to exist. A religion that is based on the worship of such a god has some clear problems, regardless of whether they preach the golden rule or not.

lol atheists dont believe because they have half an ounce of common sense. There isnt a "god", "jesus" or any other stupid shit like that. And besides, i bash muslims more than any other religion(all the ones i've met are useless, lazy mother fuckers).

If "god" was real and could do all those magical things, then why is half the world(maybe more) living in a shithole and begging for food and water? Dont give me the "because they aint ~insert religion here~". It's simple, there is and will probably never be any proof of this. The "church" makes BILLIONS of dollars each year, and what for? To spread the message? To persuade the higher up's to not look down on that religion?


/rant

1. Do you really believe, as an atheist, that the people who call themselves Christians who hate, attack, and insult you are really Christians? If you read about the teachings of Jesus (not the dogma of the Church), then you know these people are not following the teachings of Christ.

Fair enough. But because the bible was written by a diverse group of people at many different times through history, there is contradicting advice within it and there is certainly biblical support for some of these people to hate atheists.


2. Some of those people who attack you who call themselves Christians have been deceived to believe that by attacking atheists or blowing up abortion clinics, they are doing God's work. Someone else's twisted beliefs have been fed to them and they accept them as their own belief without question. They do not question because they are both spiritually and mentally weak. They are not doing God's work, but are doing the work of someone else.

The thing is, who's to say that you're any more right than they are? Someone elses beliefs have been fed to you (in the form of the bible) and you have accepted them. Do you really, honestly question them? Because if you had, maybe you would believe in god, but you would certainly have a problem with christianity.


3. Just as these people have been deceived, it is also possible to deceive someone who does not believe in the supernatural. Not in the exact same way, but still can be done.

Not really sur what you are trying to say here. You say "these people have been deceived". How do you know it is not you who has been decieved?


If you feel the need to attack someone, then I can understand attacking these people who call themselves Christians but do not follow the teachings of Christ (love your neighbor as yourself, love your enemy, etc.). However, going beyond that and attacking Christianity as a whole does nothing to advance your cause of defending yourselves. So why do it? Denying ANY validity to the teachings of Jesus only discredits you. How can any person of reason deny the validity of "do to others what you would have them do to you"?

Clearly we cannot deny all validity of what jesus said. But just because he said some sensible stuff doesn't make the rest of it true. Also, while it is "people who call themselves christians" who are most worthy of attack, surely mainstream christianity is as well, because it provides the base and the shelter for these people. Other than that, i would not attack normal christians. I would argue their beliefs because i think they are untrue and unhealthy, but i would not actually attack them, were it not for the support they give to the extremists.

You are all ignorant!

We must clear the world of body thetans - aliens that inhabit the Earth since the nuclear explosion 75 million years ago.

Psychology, christianity, juste like all religions and atheists are wrong. We must follow hubbard's teachings by giving his organisation all of our money. It is our only salvation.

You are all ignorant!

We must clear the world of body thetans - aliens that inhabit the Earth since the nuclear explosion 75 million years ago.

Psychology, christianity, juste like all religions and atheists are wrong. We must follow hubbard's teachings by giving his organisation all of our money. It is our only salvation.

LULZZZ

atheists dont bash christians, cause a heap of em are tough black guys who will just gun us down in the street

Because stupid ass christianity holds the rest of us back with its wars and its fucking technophobic style. If you fucks would just get it through your fucking head how simple life really is and your voodoo jesus bullshit is not FUCKING REAL! Everyone would be much better off. Fucking anti-abortion pro life retarded shit heads. Think they can just tell everyone how to live because a 2000 or so year old book told them all the secerets to life. Our president shouldnt be able to claim a religion, I'm terrified that the leader of a huge country thinks theres some kinda super being in the sky. Dumb shits.

Because stupid ass christianity holds the rest of us back with its wars and its fucking technophobic style. If you fucks would just get it through your fucking head how simple life really is and your voodoo jesus bullshit is not FUCKING REAL! Everyone would be much better off. Fucking anti-abortion pro life retarded shit heads. Think they can just tell everyone how to live because a 2000 or so year old book told them all the secerets to life. Our president shouldnt be able to claim a religion, I'm terrified that the leader of a huge country thinks theres some kinda super being in the sky. Dumb shits.

I'm frightened that someone who lords the 'simple life' is a complex shit-storm of juvenile prejudice and hatred. Maybe check yourself before you riggidy-wreck yo self?

Its not hatred of anything but a stupid ideology, the people can change the beliefs are ass backwards and I do hate them with just cause. Its not about the "Simple Life", its about how simple everything really is. Is it so hard to accept we exist based on a huge link of positive coincidences, and a big guy in the sky doesn't have a people machine. So don't negatively interpret my previous statement, or this one. You dip shit.

Its not hatred of anything but a stupid ideology, the people can change the beliefs are ass backwards and I do hate them with just cause. Its not about the "Simple Life", its about how simple everything really is. Is it so hard to accept we exist based on a huge link of positive coincidences, and a big guy in the sky doesn't have a people machine. So don't negatively interpret my previous statement, or this one. You dip shit.

You hate them with just cause? You're as dangerous as the folks that use religion to justify hatred! The only justification you have is that their 'beliefs are ass backwards'? Even if they do believe incorrectly, it is supremely childish to let hatred fester over something outside of your sphere of control. I claim again: You are a complex shit-storm of juvenile prejudice and hatred.

You hate them with just cause? You're as dangerous as the folks that use religion to justify hatred! The only justification you have is that their 'beliefs are ass backwards'? Even if they do believe incorrectly, it is supremely childish to let hatred fester over something outside of your sphere of control. I claim again: You are a complex shit-storm of juvenile prejudice and hatred.

I would not say that group held beliefs are outside a person's sphere of control. He does seem to be a bit juvenile about his beliefs using strong words and pouring hatred out the way he does, but wasn't god a bit juvenile in telling us pitiful humans the truth, the light and the way?

Also, before you judge, try to remember that, unlike you, Nickel here has not had the benefit of DIRECT COMMUNICATION WITH GOD face to face as you claim to have had, to shore up his faith.

I would not say that group held beliefs are outside a person's sphere of control. He does seem to be a bit juvenile about his beliefs using strong words and pouring hatred out the way he does, but wasn't god a bit juvenile in telling us pitiful humans the truth, the light and the way?

Also, before you judge, try to remember that, unlike you, Nickel here has not had the benefit of DIRECT COMMUNICATION WITH GOD face to face as you claim to have had, to shore up his faith.

That's a loaded question, BP. Ask whether I'm a hypocrite directly or don't ask it at all.

That's a loaded question, BP. Ask whether I'm a hypocrite directly or don't ask it at all.

I don't need to ask. I know you are.

Do you think God behaved like a juvenile would at times? You know, throw temper tantrums, flying off the handle over very minor things? Do you think God allowed himself to be ruled by emotions or logic?

I rest my fucking case.

I don't need to ask. I know you are.

Do you think God behaved like a juvenile would at times? You know, throw temper tantrums, flying off the handle over very minor things? Do you think God allowed himself to be ruled by emotions or logic?

I rest my fucking case.

God is God. He gets to do whatever the fuck He wants to...like kill a couple hundred thousand people with a wall of water. Or hit the Earth with massive rocks that wipe out vast chunks of the life. Or make retarded people, or anything else He wants to do. He doesn't work in mysterious ways...He does what He does: Makes something, supports it, then ends it. You can be angry at God if you want, it's not going to affect anything but your own mood. I don't care whether God acts juvenile or not...He's God. You want to try and stop God? Go for it. Have fun being fucked into the ground.

You hate them with just cause? You're as dangerous as the folks that use religion to justify hatred! The only justification you have is that their 'beliefs are ass backwards'? Even if they do believe incorrectly, it is supremely childish to let hatred fester over something outside of your sphere of control. I claim again: You are a complex shit-storm of juvenile prejudice and hatred.

Dangerous?! See now I know not to pay any attention to your shit. Your making crazy talk, I'm not dangerous, I never go out of my way to physically hurt anyone. It seems to me all of the people actually doing most of the fucked up shit, are people with claims deep in and with religion. There probably isint any thing I can do, your right it is outside of my "sphere of control". Your claim is bunk and I stick by the fact that your a dipshit.

God is God. He gets to do whatever the fuck He wants to...like kill a couple hundred thousand people with a wall of water. Or hit the Earth with massive rocks that wipe out vast chunks of the life. Or make retarded people, or anything else He wants to do. He doesn't work in mysterious ways...He does what He does: Makes something, supports it, then ends it. You can be angry at God if you want, it's not going to affect anything but your own mood. I don't care whether God acts juvenile or not...He's God.

You would never opt to do those things, Hex - even if you had the power. You've got too much love and respect in you for all things living.

...or would you?

I mean, I could see if you assigned natural causes to the biblical mass-death accounts, and then poured your devotion into a more loving, benevolent God who existed outside the fables in the Bible.

But how could you love something that allegedly destructs on a whim?

:confused:

You want to try and stop God? Go for it. Have fun being fucked into the ground.

Is that why you converted, Hex? For fear of being fucked into the ground if you didn't? That noose of fear around your neck that is leading you to The Promised Land should be relaxed into a yoke, at the very least. Otherwise, doesn't it feel a bit like being bullied into submission?

I think you all personify God way too much.

Emotions are a human characteristic.

Why should people not personify god? People created him/her/it/whatever.

You would never opt to do those things, Hex - even if you had the power. You've got too much love and respect in you for all things living.

...or would you?

I mean, I could see if you assigned natural causes to the biblical mass-death accounts, and then poured your devotion into a more loving, benevolent God who existed outside the fables in the Bible.

But how could you love something that allegedly destructs on a whim?

:confused:


Is that why you converted, Hex? For fear of being fucked into the ground if you didn't? That noose of fear around your neck that is leading you to The Promised Land should be relaxed into a yoke, at the very least. Otherwise, doesn't it feel a bit like being bullied into submission?

AngryFemme, I've told ya why I converted. It wasn't necessarily by choice, or anything I did. Things have happened that completely destroyed my ability to doubt the existence of God.

As to how I can love something that destroys on a whim: Can you look at a thunderstorm and enjoy its splendor even though its lightning bolts claim lives and burn down dry forests? Can you look at the cosmos and be awestruck and inspired with a feeling of joy even though it can hurl rocks with the power to wipe out every last bit of life on Earth? Can you peer into the ocean with wonder and amazement even though its life may take yours?

Life and death are part of existence...we all die one way or another. Does it matter how many go at a time? I love God, Creator and Destroyer, because He is a Creator before He is a Destroyer. No matter how or when my life ends, I still have the blessing of being brought into it and being allowed to experience it. With the knowledge that I did not create myself, I feel nothing but gratitude for experiencing this beautiful world; from its darkest shades to its brightest highlights, it is truly cherished.

Why should people not personify god? People created him/her/it/whatever.

People created these corrupt personifications of God during the development of organized religions. This is because as organized religions developed slowly over thousands of years, they fell corrupt.

People shouldn't continue perpetuating this because it clouds up the meaning of God for those seeking meaning, it allows organized religions to introduce fear and consequences to manipulate society into obedience, and it is unreasonable.

Now, if an individual non extremist wants to believe in a personified God, thats all well in good. Whatever floats their boat, they aren't doing anyone harm. But personally, I see no reason to believe emotions in the way we understand them would apply to God. Love, defiantly, but not in the emotional expereince sense; more like what the expereince represents.

AngryFemme, I've told ya why I converted. It wasn't necessarily by choice, or anything I did. Things have happened that completely destroyed my ability to doubt the existence of God.

As to how I can love something that destroys on a whim: Can you look at a thunderstorm and enjoy its splendor even though its lightning bolts claim lives and burn down dry forests? Can you look at the cosmos and be awestruck and inspired with a feeling of joy even though it can hurl rocks with the power to wipe out every last bit of life on Earth? Can you peer into the ocean with wonder and amazement even though its life may take yours?

Life and death are part of existence...we all die one way or another. Does it matter how many go at a time? I love God, Creator and Destroyer, because He is a Creator before He is a Destroyer. No matter how or when my life ends, I still have the blessing of being brought into it and being allowed to experience it. With the knowledge that I did not create myself, I feel nothing but gratitude for experiencing this beautiful world; from its darkest shades to its brightest highlights, it is truly cherished.

Inanimate objects do not have *whims*. Thunderstorms, the cosmos, the ocean, etc. do not make any conscious decision to destroy life. You cannot equate them to the intentional murder and genocide committed by the Christian God.

People created these corrupt personifications of God during the development of organized religions...

...But personally, I see no reason to believe emotions in the way we understand them would apply to God. Love, defiantly, but not in the emotional expereince sense; more like what the expereince represents.

The fact of the matter is, that you are creating/inventing a god to fit your personal opinions of what a god should be.

Your perception of god is just as likely to be totally false as is any other perception of a god.

If any god were actually to exist, I'm 100% certain that you (along with everyone else) are not privy to it's thoughts, emotions, or intentions.

Inanimate objects do not have *whims*. Thunderstorms, the cosmos, the ocean, etc. do not make any conscious decision to destroy life. You cannot equate them to the intentional murder and genocide committed by the Christian God.

I can, and I did. You can't grasp what the comparison is if you think the consciousness of a death-dealer affects the individual's hatred of death. Is the death of a loved one easier to accept if it is by falling and crushing the skull than if the skull is crushed by a man's fist? In both cases, is not the person removed from you? In both cases, if one does not accept the death, will they not also deny nature or man as the death-dealer? Is it not true, that when death is not accepted, one will blame what they can to hold onto the memories of the dead? If one does accept the death, will they not also accept nature or man as the death-dealer? Is it not true, that when death is accepted, one will not hate that which caused it (for hatred will not bring the dead to life)?

The fact of the matter is, that you are creating/inventing a god to fit your personal opinions of what a god should be.

I introduce nothing that I don't have reason to believe. Choosing to not include attributes which I see unreasonable, is not inventing or creating anything.

Your perception of god is just as likely to be totally false as is any other perception of a god.

If any god were actually to exist, I'm 100% certain that you (along with everyone else) are not privy to it's thoughts, emotions, or intentions.

Of course! What the hell do I know? Anything could be false!

But I believe what I do because I see reason to, same as everyone.

As to how I can love something that destroys on a whim: Can you look at a thunderstorm and enjoy its splendor even though its lightning bolts claim lives and burn down dry forests? Can you look at the cosmos and be awestruck and inspired with a feeling of joy even though it can hurl rocks with the power to wipe out every last bit of life on Earth? Can you peer into the ocean with wonder and amazement even though its life may take yours?

Yes, to the splendor of a thunder and lightning storm. Yes, at being awestruck at the mystery of the cosmos. Yes, to the wonder and amazement (and utter fear) I have of the sea. The natural world is riddled with powerful forces far greater than I, and those things demand my awe and respect. What they don't demand is my worship, or my idolizing.

You can't grasp what the comparison is if you think the consciousness of a death-dealer affects the individual's hatred of death. Is the death of a loved one easier to accept if it is by falling and crushing the skull than if the skull is crushed by a man's fist? In both cases, is not the person removed from you? In both cases, if one does not accept the death, will they not also deny nature or man as the death-dealer? Is it not true, that when death is not accepted, one will blame what they can to hold onto the memories of the dead? If one does accept the death, will they not also accept nature or man as the death-dealer? Is it not true, that when death is accepted, one will not hate that which caused it (for hatred will not bring the dead to life)?

It's not the individual's hatred of death that is at question here. To hell with the victim for a moment. What about the inflictor, who has the choice to do otherwise? It's not about who or what we lay blame on, it's about the intention of the death-dealer, regardless if the victims are blaming it or not. The victims could be woefully unaware of the cause of their death. In this case, the victim's perception is unimportant. But like truckfixr pointed out, the death-dealer of the Christian Bible isn't an unconscious force like wind, rain or fire. It's an omnipotent entity that somehow has a direct connection to all of the beings in the Universe it supposedly created.

Many cultures worship that which they fear; Volcanoes, earthquakes, the "angry" sky Gods who are stingy with the rain and can make or break a season's crops - your God is no different, and no more powerful, and no less abstract. Most of all, your God is no more aware of your existence and humble worship than the volcano is to the villagers it occasionally rains it's fiery embers down on.

Well, being as my God is locked within a mental concept for the purposes of discussion, you are accurate to say it has no power. Take a moment though, and ponder this: I have a concept of a tree within my mind. It can grow, die, etc....yet it doesn't really do any of these things. It is just a reflection of the reality outside of me. My concept of God is exactly the same.

The god in my head is but a partial reflection of the real deal. Or, as Lao Tzu puts it, "The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao." It just is. If you can grasp that God is but the name given by man to 'the way shit is', then you might be able to fully understand all that I say.

The only difference between my experience and yours, so far as I can grasp from your linguistic framework, is that I hear the experience's voice and see its will to a greater extent. You feel its body with your five physical senses, and you've noticed a little bit of its will through the expression of scientific law and theory. If it can be done, it is within God's allowances for our will. You have even heard its whispers in the form of overwhelming and unshakable experiences that feel as though they speak to you: you will experience everything you truly need, and that includes death.

That I've been given the pleasure of knowing its will and voice better than its body says nothing of my status: I am no better than you for it, nor any worse. My experience is just...different...and it's the exact experience of 'the way shit is' that I need in order to flow with it.

Worship of God is being with God...when you understand that all that exists is in the here and now, you will understand that worship of God is nothing more than being in reality and accepting it as it is. I couldn't hate God for causing death unless I hate death itself...and I just don't. Death just is...it's part of reality...part of the way shit is. If I resent or fear reality, I turn from God and begin living in my memories and dreams, bringing only suffering to myself as I ignore what's in front of me for that which doesn't exist anymore.

If you still think my faith to be unhealthy after reading this, then so be it. I hope though, at the very least, you do not entirely discount the possibility of reality being a conscious entity in and of itself. I know the word of a person over the internet doesn't count for much, if anything, but it is my honest experience that reality does have a voice and will. I am quite sure you doubt me on that...but please, do not shut your mind to it entirely: the mind doesn't function properly when it is closed.

I hope though, at the very least, you do not entirely discount the possibility of reality being a conscious entity in and of itself. I know the word of a person over the internet doesn't count for much, if anything, but it is my honest experience that reality does have a voice and will. I am quite sure you doubt me on that...but please, do not shut your mind to it entirely: the mind doesn't function properly when it is closed.

If I seem close-minded to you, then it is simply a matter of unfamiliarity between us two, because I assure you, I was a steadfast believer in the existence of God for over 20 years. That is where being close-minded began for me, for as I walked with God, I sought no other explanation for the human condition that wasn't slated directly to God's will. It wasn't until I opened my mind some that I began searching for other reasoning behind the human condition, and the reality we experience, and our perception of that which is right out of our grasp.

My perceptions and understanding was once a swing door, one that would open just far enough for me to question the necessity of having a God concept, then slam shut when the answers didn't seem immediately within my reach, or easily grasped without too much probing on my behalf. My life has been riddled with the same trials and tribulations yours have, Hex - I've felt pain and shame and sorrow and helplessness, and that swing door of my mind worked some serious overtime as I tried different methods of understanding reality and my place in it. Each time I'd relentlessly search for an honest concept of God that would somehow show me the way, give me the encouragement and make itself known to me, I'd exercise the hinges on that swing door again, and each time, without fail - I found a source within myself that gave me the strength and the gumption to resolve my internal dilemmas without just lying down and asking God to "carry me" through it.

I truly don't believe your faith is unhealthy at this point in your life, as it obviously led you away from leading a life of debauchery and fail. But as you crawl out of that life-draining environment, you be careful to keep the hinges of your own swinging door well-oiled, because as your character repairs itself and you become more conditioned to recognizing your own strengths and abilities, you may find that you've closed off your own mind to certain things that you once regarded as "God's will", thereby falling in the same Mind-Shut scenario you fear I am trapped in.

I do not believe that reality is a conscious entity, no. I believe reality is where we find ourselves tethered to no matter where our own consciousness-exploring may take us. I believe that a collective consciousness can surface as a result of all that we perceive, as a whole - but I believe it is firmly grounded in one shared reality - one that is inescapable, no matter how much we try to personify it. Defining reality as you see it on other people who have an entirely different perception of it just isn't going to work.

You've clearly found a path that works for you, and I've clearly found a path that works for me. Saying that I'm close-minded to your ideals isn't fair, because you fail to take into account that your God concept is an old shoe to me, one that I've already tried on that didn't fit comfortably and failed to provide me with the life-organizing enthusiasm that it afforded you. At the end of the day, we're both striving for the same destination: Peace of Mind.

Fair 'nuff. :)

Take a moment though, and ponder this: I have a concept of a tree within my mind. It can grow, die, etc....yet it doesn't really do any of these things. It is just a reflection of the reality outside of me. My concept of God is exactly the same.



So your god is an imaginary tree. Mine is too.