When I was in grad school, my thesis advisor once told me that the greatest sin was to do the right thing for the wrong reason. I was mightily impressed at the time, and thought about this off and on for years. Finally I discarded the whole idea. Partly because in the modern view, there is no "right" or "wrong", only what works and what does not, "right"and "wrong" being arbitrary and judgemental labels we place on things to denote our approval or disapproval. But mainly because there is no such thing as "sin"--this concept is still another artifact of the Piscean Age, something the priesthood concocted to keep the flock cowed and compliant.

What is sin? Some say it is an offense against God. Hello? God is infinite, eternal, and all-loving--only the pettiest of deities could even BE offended. Others say it is when a commandment is broken. That argument falls under scrutiny when you realize how unfair and arbitrary the commandments are. Agian, the products of an inferior deity. (But at least, Christian only have ten to worry about, unless you count all the nutty stuff the Catholics came up with--like eating meat on Friday, which was rescinded a few years ago. But pity the Jews--all 460 or so laws-- like the dietary stuff, which were rendered obsolete with the advent of safe cooking practices-- in the Torah have the same authority as commandments, so the poor Jews have over 400 commandments to deal with. But I digress.)

Stuart Wilde put it thusly: "There is nothng you can do that can be regarded metaphysically as sinful. There is high energy that expresses the Force and there is less high energy, but that is all. Whatever you create, you experience. Its effects wil be around you when you die, as they are around you as you live, and your life is a matter of learning to deal with that.. . . .Sin is a creation of the subconscious mind. It is a moral code based on various tribal customs. . . .However, what is sinful to you is not sinful to someone else. . . .Sins are a creation of the mind, a shifting sea of customs, rules, and traditions."

In my reality, and that of millions of others, there is no sin. God neither judges nor punishes--just loves, sustains, and creates.

Now ArmsMerchant is making sense.

Rape, torture and murder people all you want, it's morally acceptable.

When I was in grad school, my thesis advisor once told me that the greatest sin was to do the right thing for the wrong reason. I was mightily impressed at the time, and thought about this off and on for years. Finally I discarded the whole idea. Partly because in the modern view, there is no "right" or "wrong", only what works and what does not, "right"and "wrong" being arbitrary and judgemental labels we place on things to denote our approval or disapproval. But mainly because there is no such thing as "sin"--this concept is still another artifact of the Piscean Age, something the priesthood concocted to keep the flock cowed and compliant.

What is sin? Some say it is an offense against God. Hello? God is infinite, eternal, and all-loving--only the pettiest of deities could even BE offended. Others say it is when a commandment is broken. That argument falls under scrutiny when you realize how unfair and arbitrary the commandments are. Agian, the products of an inferior deity. (But at least, Christian only have ten to worry about, unless you count all the nutty stuff the Catholics came up with--like eating meat on Friday, which was rescinded a few years ago. But pity the Jews--all 460 or so laws-- like the dietary stuff, which were rendered obsolete with the advent of safe cooking practices-- in the Torah have the same authority as commandments, so the poor Jews have over 400 commandments to deal with. But I digress.)

Stuart Wilde put it thusly: "There is nothng you can do that can be regarded metaphysically as sinful. There is high energy that expresses the Force and there is less high energy, but that is all. Whatever you create, you experience. Its effects wil be around you when you die, as they are around you as you live, and your life is a matter of learning to deal with that.. . . .Sin is a creation of the subconscious mind. It is a moral code based on various tribal customs. . . .However, what is sinful to you is not sinful to someone else. . . .Sins are a creation of the mind, a shifting sea of customs, rules, and traditions."

In my reality, and that of millions of others, there is no sin. God neither judges nor punishes--just loves, sustains, and creates.

I choose to interpret what he said like this:

Morality isnt' some ultimate absolute thing for us to adhere to, the capacity for morality is more like an 'instinct', in the same manner as our capacity for altruism, or the capacity for anger - morality is something instilled in us by natural selection for the survival and reproduction of our genes. It can also be relative between cultures and people. Right and wrong are labels we put on things to express our approval or disapproval of them [a form of emotivism perhaps influenced by R.M Hare].

In a more ultimate 'bigger picture' sense, morality probably means nothing and there is no right and wrong - right and wrong are just a part of our little world.

On this matter I kind of agree with Arms. Especially about a true God not being so petty

Correct, there is no sin because there is no real right or wrong. There is only what we call right and wrong, ideas that humans have come up with. There is no true morality, since ultimately, nothing matters.

When we're alive, everything is on the same level. The only effect our actions have is that they shape future actions. They are not a true affront to anybody; people only believe that what happens in this world has labels.

Everything's subjective, and objectively without point.

And then everything being completely meaningless, and everything being completely meaningful, become the same thing.

As in noun or adjective?

As both, I think, although I never really thought of those words as nouns. But recognizing any difference between them is just like recognizing a difference between right and wrong. Nothing matters, and so everything matters. The difference is only perspective.

I mean when you say everything is the same thing do you mean it is

neutral (meaninless and meaningful)

or

some sort of singularity? As in One?

Just so I can understand you a little better.

I mean when you say everything is the same thing do you mean it is

neutral (meaninless and meaningful)

or

some sort of singularity? As in One?

Just so I can understand you a little better.

I don't understand the difference you do between a oneness and neutrality.

I mean that nothing matters and everything matters. All simply is. Also, everything is one.

Hahaha, what do you mean?

A One or oneness can BE neutral, yes, but I don't see it as Neutrality.

Noun-adjective form, not noun-noun. Parts of speech man.

You said
"And then everything being completely meaningless, and everything being completely meaningful, become the same thing."

What is this same thing they become? Use your words, convey your idea, and remember your english lessons, please.



And how do you think everything matters? To whom? Why does it matter?

What is this same thing they become?

Everything as completely meaningful and everything as completely meaningless become a neutral One.

And how do you think everything matters? To whom? Why does it matter?

Everything is completely meaningful to everyone, and is also completely meaningless to everyone. All is one, so all simply is whether you find it to have purpose or not. That is just a subjective opinion, like whether or not something is good or evil.

At the risk of sounding patronizing, I am gratified to see some people doing some deep and serious thought about a heavy subject.

A few further thoughts--we can't even judge in our own reality what might be bad or good--judging anything simply tends to separate us from it, and hence hinders spiritual growth. That is what most of us are here for, except maybe for a few bratty children who recently learned about sarcasm.

Events that seem negative on the surface offer rich opportunities for healing and spiritual growth, if we only choose to accept them. Since the universe is a unified whole, anything that happens is the result of a sort of universal conspiracy-- when you oppose what is happening, you are in a sense opposing the entire universe--no wonder it is so stressful.

Just this morning, heading into town, a guy ran a red light and cut me off. This was mildly annoying and a bit dangerous, since the roadway was icy--but as I slowed down, I was reminded that I had wanted to stop in the neighborhood at Spenard Builders, to shop for a new wood stove (the old one is sort of falling apart). If the guy had not cut me off, I would have sailed right by the store--hence, he actually did me a favor.

Judging others is not only a counter-productive waste of time, but also impossible, since we have no way of knowing what their soul's agenda is, or what their level of development is. We are all doing the best we can, givien our level of developemeet.

Morality... Sin... God... In this vast cosmos how in the world is it possible for a few pounds of carbon to offend something that transcends the universe itself? The height of arrogance is when men define God in an egoistic image. Do yourselves a favor watch the video on YouTube: The Pale Blue Dot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pfwY2TNehw)

Now whats a theist doing using an atheist writing? The worlds to small for fighting over everything. Until we can begin to share and live and be happy with one another will we begin to understand anything. You may say I am suggesting there is no God but I say something a little different:

Individual ethical decisions may be formed into a collective codification of societal norms, or laws. These are purely human, not divine.

Science is the surest means of finding truth. Theory, experiment, analysis of data: such are the tools of science, whether directed toward knowing material or immaterial reality.

Religious teachings are hypotheses to be confirmed through individual research. As such, they must not be taken as gospel truth by adherents of a particular faith.

Religious doubters, skeptics, and heretics should be honored for their efforts to assure that unproven assertions about God are not put forward as solid truth.

There is a saying about Morales, Traditions, Fasting and all that stuff:
His disciples asked him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How should we pray? Should we give to charity? What diet should we observe?"

Jesus said, "Don't lie, and don't do what you hate, because all things are disclosed before heaven. After all, there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed, and there is nothing covered up that will remain undisclosed."

Of course the biggest phrases of morales I could suggest to anyone regardless of beliefs, sex, age, orientation and all these divisional principles is again what was written of what Jesus said:

"Treat others as you want them to treat you. This is what the Law and the Prophets are all about .... Love others as much as you love yourself .... If we truly love others and live as Christ did in this world, we won't be worried about the day of judgment. 18A real love for others will chase those worries away."

it's only wrong if you get caught.

I take the opposite view to christianity, I think the 7 deadly sins are instinctual and therefore correct. Lust, violence, greed, sloth etc, is all something to be enjoyed.
Morality, right, wrong etc.....who can really give a fuck anymore.

I take the opposite view to christianity, I think the 7 deadly sins are instinctual and therefore correct. Lust, violence, greed, sloth etc, is all something to be enjoyed.
Morality, right, wrong etc.....who can really give a fuck anymore.

Its the instinct to the body, not necessarily who you are... That seems half way to nihilism. Morales are not the key to salvation, in my belief its introspection and insight, some morality and self-discipline may emerge from introspection and insight but the self-discipline and morality itself is not the key to salvation.

"Know Thyself" This statement encompasses alot...

I take the opposite view to christianity, I think the 7 deadly sins are instinctual and therefore correct. Lust, violence, greed, sloth etc, is all something to be enjoyed.
Morality, right, wrong etc.....who can really give a fuck anymore.

I don't worry about definitions, I just strive to treat other people the way I would wish to be treated myself.

If you really "enjoy" violence, you simply haven't evolved very much. You are on pretty much the same level as a rabid wolverine.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

If you love violence and like treating those the way you want to be treated than you like violence being exacted back to you... Like Pain? Mmmm... sounds Sadistic... I dont agree with it but what suits you, its your life after all right?

If you love violence and like treating those the way you want to be treated than you like violence being exacted back to you... Like Pain? Mmmm... sounds Sadistic... I dont agree with it but what suits you, its your life after all right?

That would be masochistic, and I don't recall him saying he liked violence. He actually compared those who do with rabid animals, which is what I disagree with, since animals are base and even the act of enjoying causing pain to others instills a sense of humanity in a person, IMO. A psychotic sort of humanity, but the FEELING of fulfillment is there.

I think dolphins are the only other (mammals or animals? Was it limited?) that kill for sport/pleasure, right?

What does the rebel do when there is no morality to counter?

What does the rebel do when there is no morality to counter?


What kind of situation are we talking about?
What is he a rebel of? Surely not the whole of morality. Why did the morality end?

I believe s/he will keep going as s/he wishes.