I've been debating (fighting) with one of my friends about whether or not God exists. I am for God. She refuses to believe anything unless there is "solid believable proof".
Every time I create what I think to be a reasonable argument, she tries to change it. She is being frustratingly stubborn.
I told her that maybe she has to accept that not everything can be solid and believable, AKA leap of faith.
She said maybe she doesn't have to accept it, so I asked what can she believe then?
She admits to "not a whole lot".

How can I create a bulletproof argument for God that won't have her getting all pissy and bitchy at me?

Actually, the latter doesn't matter, I just want a solid argument for God.

You can't, or it would have been done already I'm afraid.

... Why are you acting like she has to believe in something? And besides that, there is plenty to believe in. There's science, nature, existentialism, anything else.

You also can't prove that there is a god that exists. Give up and learn to accept the fact that some people just don't believe the same things you believe.

You can't.

First of all, there is no proof for God at all. Do you believe in flying purple hippos? Or the Flying Spaghetti Monster? Santa Clause? The Tooth Fairy? All of these have the same "chance" of existing as does any kind of God.

Second of all, there is no rational argument for God. Science has already explained the natural phenomena of the universe, and there is no room for God left. Every argument in favor of God ever spoken, from Socrates to Aquinas, has been shown to be full of logical fallacies and has already been proven wrong. We can easily explain the beginning of the universe, earth, life, etc. using empirical methods.

Either you feel like there's some kind of higher power or something along those lines, or you don't.

This really isn't a question for the atheist forum.

You can't, or it would have been done already I'm afraid.

+1



(((since when do posts have to be 5 characters long?)))

I do not believe you can. Especially if you have no clue about God.

But I don't think God will care. Take that example for yourself. Why do you care what she thinks about God?

Do love being her friend? Then try to make more love and happiness instead of arguments when you're with her.

Let her think what she wants. If she ever wants to hear your thoughts on God, you'll be there to tell her.

dont?

Well you can't thats why it's called faith. And thats why more modern people are begining to belive/understand sciene thus religion is slowly decaying.

Which is a good thing, the weaker religion is the faster science grows which is better for all of us.

What fallinghouse said.

The closest thing I've seen is Godel's "proof" and that has problems too, not to mention the difficulty in understanding it and explaining it to her (no offense).

Hey, don't think that I just started talking to her and was like, "hey, I'm gonna try my best to make you believe in God."
It actually started out as a scientology discussion, and somehow progressed.

To Obbe: I care what she thinks about God because I do love being her friend. I love all of my friends. As such, I want them to go to Heaven, not hell.
She doesn't understand how it doesn't matter what you do, no matter how good you are IRL, unless you have accepted Jesus as your savior, you aren't getting in to Heaven.

One of the most awkward questions ever is, "am I going to Hell because I don't believe in God?" Obviously the answer is yes, but do you really want to just throw that out at a friend?
It's saddening to think that whether or not you believe in Heaven and Hell, you ARE going to one or the other. Just like ignorance of the law is no excuse for committing crimes, ignorance of God isn't going to keep you from going to Hell.

Sad but true.

More saddening when you consider that there is no need for it to be that way. An omnipotent god could choose not to send people to hell. Seems rather despicable to me (and probably to her too).

Just like ignorance of the law is no excuse for committing crimes, ignorance of God isn't going to keep you from going to Hell.

Sad but true.

So people who haven't heard The Word go to hell as well?

Christians suck, if they would had just kept their religion private all good people would go to heaven, regardless of faith.

So people who haven't heard The Word go to hell as well?

Yeah.

To Obbe: I care what she thinks about God because I do love being her friend. I love all of my friends. As such, I want them to go to Heaven, not hell.

'Hell' is another thing you believe in, not her. Why do you believe in hell, why do you believe she will go there? Does that make sense to you? Do you actually have reason to believe that, or were you just told that and have accepted it?

She doesn't understand how it doesn't matter what you do, no matter how good you are IRL, unless you have accepted Jesus as your savior, you aren't getting in to Heaven.

And you don't seem to understand, thats just another part of your belief.

Just like ignorance of the law is no excuse for committing crimes, ignorance of God isn't going to keep you from going to Hell.

And just because you believe God is personified as an angry dictator, just because you believe in Hell, does not mean things are really that way.

Sad but true.

True? How can you know anything is true? Tell me what reason you have for believing God is like that. What reason do you have to believe in hell?

You love being her friend. So like I said, you should work on that more ... fueling arguments, trying to force beliefs on her which she has no reason to believe in is doing the opposite; its like trying to force her into a box she won't fit in. If you truly love being her friend, you should forget about her beliefs and question your own on this matter.

What reason do you have to believe the things she does not?

Judging by your responses, I assume you don't share any of my beliefs.

Lets imagine, just for a moment that what I say is true, that unless you have accepted Jesus, you are going to Hell. There is no way to get out of it unless you accept him.
You might say you wouldn't care, but do you really want to spend eternity in Hell?
What would you do?

Of course, if it were true, you would do whatever you must to steer clear of eternal damnation.

But there is no reason to accept that what you say is true. Maybe there really is, but you haven't replied what yours was.

She sees no reason to either. Tell me, why do you accept that as true? What is your reason?

Hey, don't think that I just started talking to her and was like, "hey, I'm gonna try my best to make you believe in God."
It actually started out as a scientology discussion, and somehow progressed.

To Obbe: I care what she thinks about God because I do love being her friend. I love all of my friends. As such, I want them to go to Heaven, not hell.
She doesn't understand how it doesn't matter what you do, no matter how good you are IRL, unless you have accepted Jesus as your savior, you aren't getting in to Heaven.

One of the most awkward questions ever is, "am I going to Hell because I don't believe in God?" Obviously the answer is yes, but do you really want to just throw that out at a friend?
It's saddening to think that whether or not you believe in Heaven and Hell, you ARE going to one or the other. Just like ignorance of the law is no excuse for committing crimes, ignorance of God isn't going to keep you from going to Hell.

Sad but true.

Those that act as Christ will win souls: Christ didn't go out arguing with people about their beliefs or trying to convince them that his faith was a pillar in his life: He lived an extraordinary life, performed great works, and gave the credit to God.

If you wish to teach your friends about God, then do so by example: show them God working in your life if you truly desire their connection with God. Arguing with another, and trying to get them to 'see the light' does nothing to help a person grow into a relationship with God. If you truly are Christian, then take heed of this, "He who corrects a scoffer will bring shame to himself." If she doesn't want to believe, she won't listen to anything you have to say about the matter...just be a pillar of God's children, so that if she does at some point want faith, you can actually be there to provide guidance.

By argument and attempts to convince her, you only push her away. You damage your own utility as a child of God...by building walls of discomfort and prejudice between the two of you, she won't be comfortable in sincerely asking you how one goes about seeking and finding God.

Lets imagine, just for a moment that what I say is true, that unless you have accepted Jesus, you are going to Hell. There is no way to get out of it unless you accept him.
You might say you wouldn't care, but do you really want to spend eternity in Hell?
What would you do?

Well, let's see:

If I accepted Him on the premise of "this will prevent me from going to hell", then it's not really accepting it, is it? It's more like buying one's self an insurance policy for the afterlife, paying the premium without really having met or having faith in the Divine Underwriter Himself.

I imagined your scenario, and I'm pretty certain I'd not crumble under the veiled threat of eternal fire. The insurance policy sounds nice, but since it fails to convince me that after death, there will be an "I" to experience an afterlife soul resurrection ... then I'm comfortable calling the bluff.

After all, one would think that an All-seeing, All-knowing God would base his harsh judgment on who I really was and how I really lived ... not what I pretended to be in order to secure my place in Heaven.

I thought we were past all this with the babelfish?

Its all up to personal choice.

If someone, like you, trys to argue with me about if there is the 'God' then I will check my pockets after I shake your hand.

Thats MY personal opinion. Just love her as a friend, no matter what her beliefs are.

I've been debating (fighting) with one of my friends about whether or not God exists. I am for God. She refuses to believe anything unless there is "solid believable proof".
Every time I create what I think to be a reasonable argument, she tries to change it. She is being frustratingly stubborn.
I told her that maybe she has to accept that not everything can be solid and believable, AKA leap of faith.
She said maybe she doesn't have to accept it, so I asked what can she believe then?
She admits to "not a whole lot".

How can I create a bulletproof argument for God that won't have her getting all pissy and bitchy at me?

Actually, the latter doesn't matter, I just want a solid argument for God.

There is none. Faith isn't an argument either. In fact, it's lack of an argument. Don't quote the Bible either if you're trying to argue. The best thing you could probably say, is take the "intelligent design" (don't you love how the throw the word intelligent in there?) route and babble on about how a banana fits in a hand good and has a disposable wrapper.

Hell is even less of an argument than faith. How do you know that if you don't believe in the flying spaghetti monster, that when you die you get smothered by boiling spaghetti for eternity? You don't and there's just as good of a chance of that happening as hell existing. You think its logical to believe in something and change your morals and beliefs just because there's the chance you could go to hell if you don't? Not that there even is a chance.

And, as said before, that's not really accepting him. That's tricking him and God could not be tricked if he was omnipotent. He would see through you believing just to get into heaven and throw you into hell just in spite.

Judging by your responses, I assume you don't share any of my beliefs.

Lets imagine, just for a moment that what I say is true, that unless you have accepted Jesus, you are going to Hell. There is no way to get out of it unless you accept him.
You might say you wouldn't care, but do you really want to spend eternity in Hell?
What would you do?

so i guess all newborns and embryos go to hell. wow such a loving god. and dont say only abortions go to hell because if a lady has a miscarriage god was the one that did it. god a murderous uncaring god. what a glorious god lets rejoice halleluah!!!!

Lets imagine, just for a moment that what I say is true, that unless you have accepted Jesus, you are going to Hell. There is no way to get out of it unless you accept him.
You might say you wouldn't care, but do you really want to spend eternity in Hell?
What would you do?

Either the atheist goes through an honest conversion into Christianity after the confirmation that Christianity is true, or he doesn't, right?

If he does, then surely he would accept Jesus since his conversion is sincere? If he isn't converted then either he dishonestly "accepts" Jesus to save himself from Hell - presumably a futile act because I would assume an all-knowing god would know his acceptance was dishonest - or he stays true to his atheist position.

Given this, unless I'd actually suffer a conversion when faced with the truth of Christianity (assuming it is true for the sake of argument) - I imagine that would be quite a shocking bit of news so I can't definitively say I would or wouldn't truly convert - then what would be the point of changing my position?

Get a kitten, and tie it's legs with 4 pieces of string(or stainless steel wire for added effect. Then connect to 4 motors. Then, say "if god is truly real, then the strings should be broken". Then turn the motors on.

If god loves everything that is pure or whatever he says, then it should be spare, otherwise you will have a 3 legged cat.(1 leg is always weaker and get's ripped off first)

fair enough argument?

Judging by your responses, I assume you don't share any of my beliefs.

Lets imagine, just for a moment that what I say is true, that unless you have accepted Jesus, you are going to Hell. There is no way to get out of it unless you accept him.
You might say you wouldn't care, but do you really want to spend eternity in Hell?
What would you do?

When you die, you'll be closer to hell than to heaven......your burried 6' under. Also, why believe in a person that died 2008 years ago supposedly? Why was he nailed to a cross? Was is because of his beliefs? Was he actually a criminal? All i hear from christians is that jesus is our saviour blah blah blah. What did he save us from? Himself? Almost every single war ever has been because of peoples beliefs, but religion is the biggest cause. Were in iraq at the moment because christians feel threatened by the increasing number of muslims, and as such want to wipe them out. The pope is the most powerful and richest person on the planet. You think he got that by actively believing in "god"? Governments pay the pope/clergy(whatever the fuck the guys in the vatican are called) BILLIONS of dollars each year as a sort of "charity". Why? To protect themselves from the on comming horde of the christians?

/rant

Of course, if it were true, you would do whatever you must to steer clear of eternal damnation.

But there is no reason to accept that what you say is true. Maybe there really is, but you haven't replied what yours was.

She sees no reason to either. Tell me, why do you accept that as true? What is your reason?

I accept it as true because it makes sense to me. I find it easier to believe God over science. Especially when it is something that I have been brought up believing in, it is easier than trying to follow something else.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of times where I wish I could do whatever I want and when I died, I just would cease to exist. That would be nice.
I have been raised with the understanding that that isn't the case, however, so I have no reason to believe otherwise.

God and Christianity is more appealing to me than other beliefs.

Get a kitten, and tie it's legs with 4 pieces of string(or stainless steel wire for added effect. Then connect to 4 motors. Then, say "if god is truly real, then the strings should be broken". Then turn the motors on.

If god loves everything that is pure or whatever he says, then it should be spare, otherwise you will have a 3 legged cat.(1 leg is always weaker and get's ripped off first)

fair enough argument?

No, not really. God gave us free will; that is why we can choose whether or not to believe in him. Of course he could just make us accept him, but he has given us the choice.
He isn't going to interfere with something like that, and it says in the Bible that thou shalt not test God. That's testing him.
He wants us to accept him of our own will, by faith, not because he has proven to us he exists because we demanded him to.

Why is being brought up a certain way a good reason to believe in what you believe in? And what basis does that have on what really is going on? Tradition is bullshit. Believe in what you do because you really do believe that way, not because it's easy or were told to.

"If a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him." I Cor. 11:14

"If a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him." I Cor. 11:14

Let's try to keep this within the intended topic of the OP, please.

No, not really. God gave us free will; that is why we can choose whether or not to believe in him. Of course he could just make us accept him, but he has given us the choice.
He isn't going to interfere with something like that, and it says in the Bible that thou shalt not test God. That's testing him.
He wants us to accept him of our own will, by faith, not because he has proven to us he exists because we demanded him to.

So what i understand you saying is that "god" wont show himself if i want him too. Wouldnt that mean there's no proof of him? Isnt it just another way for the christians to help hide the fact theres no such thing? If he wont show himself at will, then how am i to believe? Seeing if believing, and i aint seeing it.

No, that's saying that you don't have control over God, and have to resort to other means of finding him than issuing an ultimatum.

No, that's saying that you don't have control over God, and have to resort to other means of finding him than issuing an ultimatum.

This. I never said he won't show himself at will.... maybe you just have to ask him without it being a test. Make fun of me all you want, but my mum talks to him all the time.
It isn't because of tradition that I believe it; my mum wasn't brought up believing it.
It just makes sense to me; a lot more sense than some other forms of reasoning do.

Running Free, I suggest reading the holy books of other religions WITH AN OPEN MIND and asking yourself why there are so many underlying themes and similarities....

You believe in the Bible, yes? And not the book of Mormon or something like that?

So what i understand you saying is that "god" wont show himself if i want him too. Wouldnt that mean there's no proof of him? Isnt it just another way for the christians to help hide the fact theres no such thing? If he wont show himself at will, then how am i to believe? Seeing if believing, and i aint seeing it.

God appears to any and all that seek earnestly. Seriously, wolfy, if you REALLY want to meet God, dig into your self and don't stop. Don't turn back when you meet something that frightens you; we are all murderers, rapists, perverts, liars, and thieves...these are parts of your make up you have to fearlessly find and face. Even when you come to what you WILL mistake for God (it's really just your own conception of perfection, not perfection itself), you must move even further down. Keep digging, digging, digging. I guarantee to you, upon my very life, that if you fearlessly search within yourself and don't turn back or stop to think about your petty shit like fear, guilt, shame, anger, etc., that God will reveal itself to you.

It won't call itself God if you ask its name (It has, by every account I've ever heard of, and of my own experience, responded with 'I am who I am' to any inquiry as to its name), it won't make you worship it, it won't yell at you, it won't damn you to hell; every single account of this encounter with God that I've heard of is as such: we are overcome with absolute peace, soundness of mind, and joy beyond anything that can be experienced in the world around us. Our entire outlook on life is changed instantaneously and irreversibly...this is what the Buddhist calls enlightenment. It is absolute oneness with creation. Just don't kill yourself when it fades away...you're human like the rest of us; incapable of maintaining perfection. You'll have a concern about yourself or the world around you that will draw you away from Heaven.

The best part is, that you can achieve this over and over again...and as you do it more often it becomes a little bit easier each time. Do it often enough and you'll be able to stick with it long enough to ask some questions!

we are all murderers, rapists, perverts, liars, and thieves...


You mean, we all have the capacity for murder, rape, perversion, lies and thievery.

Just wanted to clear that up for anyone who might take that in earnest.


I guarantee to you, upon my very life, that if you fearlessly search within yourself and don't turn back or stop to think about your petty shit like fear, guilt, shame, anger, etc., God will reveal itself to you.

Do you mean here that we shouldn't reflect upon our evil-to-the-core nature that you outlined above? It sounds like you're suggesting that us murderous, thieving rapists shouldn't have a conscience, outside of God.

When you focus on the negative, you block out the inner light that you're searching for. You want a calm, collected mind when looking for that Being. You shouldn't trip yourself up with your wrongdoings and misperceptions, because it's alright to have them.

You mean, we all have the capacity for murder, rape, perversion, lies and thievery.

Just wanted to clear that up for anyone who might take that in earnest.




Do you mean here that we shouldn't reflect upon our evil-to-the-core nature that you outlined above? It sounds like you're suggesting that us murderous, thieving rapists shouldn't have a conscience, outside of God.

If you want to call it a mere capacity, sure. But within every person is a wealth of fantasies in which one murders people, rapes people, acts out twisted perversions, fools the world, and takes all that they please. We even have our own little fantasies as to what perfection is. We have to seek these fantasies out, accept that they are part of us, and keep on moving deeper.

I may not have taken someone's life in the physical world, but I am a murderer at heart. Well, at this point, my fantasies are geared towards punching people in the face out of anger...so I suppose I'm just a raging asshole at heart these days, but I still have a sick fantasy that I have to seek, accept, and move on from if I wish to get deep enough to meet God.

As to reflecting upon our nature: It is not that one shouldn't have a conscience, but stewing over your nature doesn't help you prevent it from happening, nor does it help it happen - it stalls you from the goal of this meditation though, and that is a personal contact with God. It is useless in its entirety to sit and ponder why your subconsciousness is filled with fantasies of killing, raping, torturing, etc: it just is. If you sit and stew about your nature long enough, you will be entirely sidetracked and have to start all over. Accept yourself as you truly are, and move deeper.

Addition: Reflecting upon your nature is entirely useful in the development of one's conscience, but that is all. The meditation I've outlined is for the sole purpose of meeting God. If you are meditating to improve your conscience, then yes, it is useful to think about aspects of your subconsciousness...but that's an entirely different pursuit. For the meditation I've described, you are finding yourself, accepting yourself, and moving beyond yourself. Reflecting upon yourself stalls you from moving beyond yourself.

If you want to call it a mere capacity, sure. But within every person is a wealth of fantasies in which one murders people, rapes people, acts out twisted perversions, fools the world, and takes all that they please. We even have our own little fantasies as to what perfection is. We have to seek these fantasies out, accept that they are part of us, and keep on moving deeper.

I'm not just calling it a mere capacity - it truly IS just a mere capacity. Not everyone fantasizes about murder, rape, perversions and thievery, and most importantly, not everyone acts upon their urges. It's a given that we are capable of acting in just about any manner imaginable - but that does not mean that these tendencies are inescapable.

I may not have taken someone's life in the physical world, but I am a murderer at heart. Well, at this point, my fantasies are geared towards punching people in the face out of anger...so I suppose I'm just a raging asshole at heart these days, but I still have a sick fantasy that I have to seek, accept, and move on from if I wish to get deep enough to meet God.

But God knows you already, does He not? You will never "move on from" being capable of punching people in the face. As long as you have a fist, and a good arm - you have the capacity to do harm with your blows. That capability is what's inescapable. The tendency is what can be avoided, as you seek a more peaceful and righteous path.

As to reflecting upon our nature: It is not that one shouldn't have a conscience, but stewing over your nature doesn't help you prevent it from happening, nor does it help it happen - it stalls you from the goal of this meditation though, and that is a personal contact with God.

It seems like followers of God tend to "stew over" their very nature a lot more than non-adherents. There seems to be an element of self-loathing that is necessary to humbling yourself in front of God. That is what I believe is unhealthy and unproductive.

It is useless in its entirety to sit and ponder why your subconsciousness is filled with fantasies of killing, raping, torturing, etc: it just is. If you sit and stew about your nature long enough, you will be entirely sidetracked and have to start all over. Accept yourself as you truly are, and move deeper.

Well if you're having bonafide fantasies about it, then yeah, your tendency is heightened greatly. You should probably focus on other things. But again, just having the capacity for it does not equal to fantasizing about it.

gods will huh? i thought god was omnipotent and had a plan for us all. so how the hell can we have free will?

But God knows you already, does He not? Of course God knows me.

It seems like followers of God tend to "stew over" their very nature a lot more than non-adherents. There seems to be an element of self-loathing that is necessary to humbling yourself in front of God. That is what I believe is unhealthy and unproductive.

Self-loathing does nothing to humble one's self; it's as much an act of pride as is self-worship: God made all of us, from surface to core. Lament your darkness and you are pretty much saying that God fucked up in creating you....that isn't humble, that's tremendous pride to think your understanding is worthy of judging God itself! I'm with you on thinking that self-loathing is unhealthy and unproductive.

Well if you're having bonafide fantasies about it, then yeah, your tendency is heightened greatly. You should probably focus on other things. But again, just having the capacity for it does not equal to fantasizing about it.

I think you're mistaking my talking of these fantasies as if they occur in conscious thought. These fantasies are the subconscious desires responsible for your emotions. When you are angered, it is because something is interfering with your fantasies. When saddened, it is because something destroyed one of your fantasies. When frightened, it is because one of your fantasies is close to failure. And so on. You can sit and reflect on these to develop your conscience later, but for now, just friggin' find them, accept them, and keep going deeper!

you can't create a substantial argument for god because it's fucking retarded

you can't create a substantial argument for god because it's fucking retarded

GTFO of my thread.

I've been debating (fighting) with one of my friends about whether or not God exists. I am for God. She refuses to believe anything unless there is "solid believable proof".
Every time I create what I think to be a reasonable argument, she tries to change it. She is being frustratingly stubborn.
I told her that maybe she has to accept that not everything can be solid and believable, AKA leap of faith.
She said maybe she doesn't have to accept it, so I asked what can she believe then?
She admits to "not a whole lot".

How can I create a bulletproof argument for God that won't have her getting all pissy and bitchy at me?

Actually, the latter doesn't matter, I just want a solid argument for God.

There is none. Hence religion fails.

Judging by your responses, I assume you don't share any of my beliefs.

Lets imagine, just for a moment that what I say is true, that unless you have accepted Jesus, you are going to Hell. There is no way to get out of it unless you accept him.
You might say you wouldn't care, but do you really want to spend eternity in Hell?
What would you do?

You're as fucking stupid as the scientologists are hahaha.

I accept it as true because it makes sense to me. I find it easier to believe God over science. Especially when it is something that I have been brought up believing in, it is easier than trying to follow something else.

It other words, you believe it because you were told to. Your reason ends at I like it.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of times where I wish I could do whatever I want and when I died, I just would cease to exist. That would be nice.

I have been raised with the understanding that that isn't the case, however, so I have no reason to believe otherwise.

You have no reason to believe what you do either, besides being raised with those beliefs. If I understand you correctly, that alone is the only 'reason' you believe what you do! If you had not been raised with those beliefs, would you still see any reason to believe in them?

You have given no more reasons to believe in those Christian concepts of life after death in heaven or hell then you do to believe that you will cease to exist, other then being raised with those beliefs. I do not believe death is the end of existence, but I have reason to believe what I do. I was not raised with those beliefs, either.

Think for yourself. Ask yourself why what you believe makes sense to you.

Now for my point in all this ...

God and Christianity is more appealing to me than other beliefs.

That is the accumulation of your reasons for believing what you do: "I like it". You're used to those beliefs.

Ask yourself: what does your friend find more appealing? If your only reason for believing in these Christian beliefs is that you were raised with them, shouldn't it be completely obvious why she does not?

Well..

Science is not equipped, the scientific method is not equipped to deal with the supernatural.

Its confines are within the observable and the testable, and that has brought us a great deal of understanding.

But science as we currently understand it cannot quanitify the existence of God as we understand him.

That is what faith is for, to cross that gap between the stony absolutes and testable hypotheses.
Surely your friend believes in something unquantifiable, she trusts a friend to keep a secret, or believes wearing a certain undergarment will help her catch a good one in the club.

There must be something she accepts with out quantification.

Well..

Science is not equipped, the scientific method is not equipped to deal with the supernatural.

Its confines are within the observable and the testable, and that has brought us a great deal of understanding.

But science as we currently understand it cannot quanitify the existence of God as we understand him.

That is what faith is for, to cross that gap between the stony absolutes and testable hypotheses.
Surely your friend believes in something unquantifiable, she trusts a friend to keep a secret, or believes wearing a certain undergarment will help her catch a good one in the club.

There must be something she accepts with out quantification.


There is a huge difference between the Supernatural and God. God is within the classification, but there are plenty of things that science can prove (telepathy, RV) but we turn a blind eye to.

But I agree, when talking about a deity, faith is usually the last defense, even though some critical thinking can help expand one's belief about religions and their common beliefs.

There is no substantial proof at all.

The only reason you believe in god is probably because your family or friends influenced you to since you were a toddler.
There really is no tangible evidence that god exists. Some weak-minded people just need to feel that they're being "loved" and "guided", because they're too insecure to handle life realistically.

You live.
You die.

Whatever happens next is uncertain.

I hate that the OP is calling her stubborn. I mean, she's isn't going to argue unless she beleives in what she's arguing. And there he is, being just as stubborn as she is but she's the stubborn one because she doesn't agree with him. I know that has nothing to do with anything but I just wanted to express my hatred for people who do that.

Judging by your responses, I assume you don't share any of my beliefs.

Lets imagine, just for a moment that what I say is true, that unless you have accepted Jesus, you are going to Hell. There is no way to get out of it unless you accept him.
You might say you wouldn't care, but do you really want to spend eternity in Hell?
What would you do?

You know man, I do believe in something higher and beyond what humans are and can even fathum, but thats where I have a big problem with Christians, they make it seem as so God/Jesus are some angry dictators, ACCEPT ME OR BURN, I AM SUPIOR TO YOU, guess who else followed that same kind of philosphy...

I've never been able to figure out what happens to all the faithful and riteous folks who lived before Jesus, and all the folks who lived after him whom never had a chance to hear his word, are they all going to hell? If so then that makes no sence what-so-ever, they believed in God(s) yet b/c they never got ahold or where taught about Jesus then they will burn in hell for eternity, and for what exactly??

The Christrian church has murdered and fought wars thats taken countless lives throughout its existence, they FORCED people to believe what they taught, or die. So will these folks goto hell for murdering anyone who did not adhere to their teachings, or even worse ones who chose to believe something different? That makes them fundamentally no different from the Roman Catholics, killers with a book in their hand, killing for nothing better than beliefs...

You say you love your friend, then pls adhere my advice and do not try to force your beliefs onto her, what if she was Jewish, would you still push Christ onto her? If shes meant to be saved then something will happen that'll change her mind, it MUST come from within, and I think trying to "argue" your point down into her throat will only make her more bitter at you and less willing to learn WHAT YOU DO KNOW, not just what you believe...

Do you see what I mean here OP?

I've been debating (fighting) with one of my friends about whether or not God exists. I am for God. She refuses to believe anything unless there is "solid believable proof".
Every time I create what I think to be a reasonable argument, she tries to change it. She is being frustratingly stubborn.
I told her that maybe she has to accept that not everything can be solid and believable, AKA leap of faith.
She said maybe she doesn't have to accept it, so I asked what can she believe then?
She admits to "not a whole lot".

How can I create a bulletproof argument for God that won't have her getting all pissy and bitchy at me?

Actually, the latter doesn't matter, I just want a solid argument for God.

Umm... The Bible says so?

You can't, or it would have been done already I'm afraid.

That's silly logic...that's like saying (before quarks were found) they don't exist because we haven't found them yet, just because we haven't found it does not mean it doesn't exist...

But I agree with you, I don't think there is ANY hope of you finding a substantial argument for your god, unless of course you change your definition and idea of your god...seeing as that's all it is in the first place...and idea, concept whatever...

You know man, I do believe in something higher and beyond what humans are and can even fathum, but thats where I have a big problem with Christians, they make it seem as so God/Jesus are some angry dictators, ACCEPT ME OR BURN, I AM SUPIOR TO YOU, guess who else followed that same kind of philosphy...

I've never been able to figure out what happens to all the faithful and riteous folks who lived before Jesus, and all the folks who lived after him whom never had a chance to hear his word, are they all going to hell? If so then that makes no sence what-so-ever, they believed in God(s) yet b/c they never got ahold or where taught about Jesus then they will burn in hell for eternity, and for what exactly??

The Christrian church has murdered and fought wars thats taken countless lives throughout its existence, they FORCED people to believe what they taught, or die. So will these folks goto hell for murdering anyone who did not adhere to their teachings, or even worse ones who chose to believe something different? That makes them fundamentally no different from the Roman Catholics, killers with a book in their hand, killing for nothing better than beliefs...

You say you love your friend, then pls adhere my advice and do not try to force your beliefs onto her, what if she was Jewish, would you still push Christ onto her? If shes meant to be saved then something will happen that'll change her mind, it MUST come from within, and I think trying to "argue" your point down into her throat will only make her more bitter at you and less willing to learn WHAT YOU DO KNOW, not just what you believe...

Do you see what I mean here OP?

Yeah, I see where you are coming from.
To SHH, when I say she is being stubborn, I don't mean that she isn't listening to me, I mean that whenever I come up with what I feel to be a logical and reasonable arguement, she completely tosses it aside and moves on to something else.
She doesn't let me debate my side of it.

To inuteroteen: Yeah, the Bible says so sounds like a reasonable arguement, but using that train of thought, then the Qu'ran is correct, Bhuddism's Eightfold path is correct, all that other stuff can be taken as true.
If I said, "the Bible says so" then the counter would be, "how do you know that Islam isn't right?" or something along the lines of that.

EDIT: Another way I meant stubborn was that we both enjoy debating and we can enjoy a good arguement. I'm stubborn enough that even when I know I am wrong, I will argue my point to the death before I admit I am wrong.
Maybe she is the same way; maybe some of what I am saying does make sense to her, but she doesn't want to admit it, AND she doesn't want to hear it, which is why she tries to move on to her next point.

please learn to use rational and free thought. don't believe in some stupid fairy-tale bullshit just cause its easier for your simple mind or because you were raised that way. Christianity has no more proof of being correct than any other religion....

please learn to use rational and free thought. don't believe in some stupid fairy-tale bullshit just cause its easier for your simple mind or because you were raised that way. Christianity has no more proof of being correct than any other religion....

Wait, so you're saying that because I am Christian, I am not using rational or free thought?
Then you call it, 'stupid fairy tale bullshit' and call me simple minded?
THEN, you say it has no more proof than any other religion?
...... I lost where I was going with that.

But sorry, I missed the entire point of your post.

please learn to use rational and free thought. don't believe in some stupid fairy-tale bullshit just cause its easier for your simple mind or because you were raised that way. Christianity has no more proof of being correct than any other religion....

Rational thought says to judge different reasoning as sub-rational? I always took rational and free to mean sensible and unburdened. Is the thinking that faith is 'fairy-tale bullshit' rational and free if it results in you spending time fruitlessly trying to get others to abandon their 'irrational' and 'boxed in' thinking? Did the judgment of faith being for the 'simple minded' come after or before you came to believe your reasoning as complex, rational, and free in mind?

Tell me, what supports your system of reasoning as rational, free, and complex while simultaneously diminishing the rationale, freedom, and complexity of theism?

If you need help, the word is five letters, starts with 'P', and ends with a 'ride' to ostracism and general human conflict. It also has the synonym 'arrogance'.

And don't bother saying it, I know I'm being a prick here. I couldn't think of a friendly way to say this.

I am a staunch agnostic atheist but one of the more solid arguments I have heard for god came from Kelly James Clark, of Calvin College, in his paper Reformed Epistemology. You could probably find the excerpt about god/religion on the internet under the title Without Evidence or Argument. Personally the idea of reformed epistemology to me just seems like special pleading for that which is unprovable since to accept it you must assert that there is really no need to require evidence for any of your beliefs.

BTW: Dunno if anyone already posted this since this thread was soo frekin long!

There is no God of the bible or any other religion.

Prove me wrong.

I can't prove to you something you're already dead-set against.

But what did it for me was analyzing the common threads and themes within different religions and my own personal spiritual awakening.

I'm not dead set against the belief in god. Prove it to me, then. :)

I don't think I can, because you can argue with words.

Asking someone to prove the existence of a deity to an atheist is asking them to undertake the losing position. Especially when you ask on Totse.

Look inside yourself; do you believe that someone can tell you something and you'll immediately go "You're right, there is a god."

I can give philosophical ideas, and anecdotes, and statistics.

I can also argue AGAINST those same statements.

Nothing I can tell you is flawless. Everything I can tell you can be shot down by another person.

My last line of defense is "I am not you." ((While breathing))

You have to understand yourself.

(((Oh, I'm an atheist, too, btw)))

1. Then the correct response should have been, "I can't prove that to you, period". Because whether he or I is dead-set against is apparently irrelevant since you can't prove it either way.


2. You're assuming way to much. You have no clue whether I would be willing to take the "losing position" (one would think belief in god would be the winning position if a god actually existed...) unless you actually try to prove it to me.

Moreover, arguing against the " philosophical ideas, and anecdotes, and statistics" you give doesn't mean a person isn't willing to take the "losing position" it means he doesn't yet see it as "losing" (your words) because you haven't convinced him yet.


3. If you're an atheist, what did you mean by "what did it for me was analyzing the common threads and themes within different religions and my own personal spiritual awakening."? :confused:

http://erowid.org/chemicals/dmt/dmt.shtml

Insta-god. Not necessarily God, but it's halfway there.