If God created everything then He created the Devil (given). However, if God only gave free will to humans then is it not fair to assume that God intended that Lucifer should rebel and become Satan.

If this isn't the case then surely if Lucifer hadn't have rebelled then God would need somewhere to place all the evil humans and someone to guard over it, otherwise we would all be saved and the whole charade of living on Earth is ever so slighly pointless.

Therefore could it not be surmised that Satan is simply a fourth aspect of God, in addition to the Holy Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

This sort of thing is exactly how concepts change and evolve over time.

Anyway... I'm a bit rusty on my Bible. Maybe God did give Lucifer free will but the bible just didn't mention it??

I mean surely you can't expect the Bible to mention everything. It didn't mention potatoes! :eek:

The Bible describes Lucifer in fairly harsh terms (i think) and it seems to condemn Lucifer for his actions. If Lucifer didnt have free will, then why would the Word of God condemn him for his actions?

He also wouldn't be spoken of so badly if he were a fourth aspect of God. The bible seems to make it pretty clear that he is "fallen". He was also an archangel or something like that, not an aspect of God

OP, do remember the Bible is mostly myth and metaphor, especially the stuff about the devil, and the numerous contradictions.

For instance, in the Book of Job, the devil seems to be on pretty good terms with God.

OP, do remember the Bible is mostly myth and metaphor, especially the stuff about the devil, and the numerous contradictions.

For instance, in the Book of Job, the devil seems to be on pretty good terms with God.

Some suspect that Lucifer and Satan are different entities entirely. But I think this thread is operating under the assumption that mainstream Christianity is correct.

You must have bad things to make the good things worth it. Imagine a world with no death. Birth would become meaningless.

In th Gnostic Tradition The Demiurge (Devil) is created by mistake when God goes Mad and loses his wisdom to the outside of the fullness. Through these events mankind is enslaved in a world that is less than perfect from the Fullness, this is the physical realm.

So The Devil came by "mistake" if the word can be understood the way I hope seems appropriate to use...

The physical realm is not entire evil but mostly evil and is ruled by the demiurge aka christian devil. Under this view it becomes amazing how deep the level of ignorance really goes and just how much evil is in the world.

Im still learning about Gnostic Viewpoint, this is my interpretation of it...

i see your interpretation of the devil as a fourth aspect of god as reflecting some eastern philosophy. the idea that you can't have form without space, light without dark, coke without pepsi. and if we are looking at god as something that is encompassing of all good then it seems that it would have to have a very strong relationship with all evil in the world because it is impossible to remove the two from each other.

on the other, more orthodox hand, i believe that before the revolt lucifer was something like god's highest or most favored angel, so that might of meant that he had some degree of free will, enough to feel that he himself should be equal to god at least (i guess). or maybe it was the fact that god gave free will, and all his love, to his lesser creation, man, and not to the angels that made lucifer so jealous that he left his place in heaven.
-i cite the noted contemporary theologian prof. kevin smith and his documentary feature on the subject, DOGMA

Even if the Devil did have a certain amount of free will, it can also be assumed that God is all knowing concerning what is to happen in the future (otherwise there would have been no prophesies). So God would have created him in full knowledge that he was going to rebel.

Also I think the Devil should not be interpreted as evil (not saying I am a Satanist or anything) but as merely the wrathful element of God. Tempting Eve could be construed as a test, just like the ones that God likes to do (see Abraham) and other than that what actual evil does he do (disregarding non-dogma)

The free will problem you brought up can also be applied to humans.

^ Google it. Search "God and free will" or something similar.

http://www.carm.org/open/God_know.htm

I skim-read part of this, it seems relevant. Though I'm not sure if the analogy of the child and the ice-cream presented is entirely correct, because God pre-knows things with absolute certainty.

The devil had free will, used it to go against God (which is why he isn't an aspect of God), and was punished.

After this incident free will was removed from the angels who stayed on God's side (I'm not sure if the same happened to the third who allied with Satan).

i'm pretty sure it was in isaiah when god said "i am the lord, and there is none else. i form the light, and create darkness; i make peace, and create evil; i the lord do all these things." i think the notion of one guy with a big fluffy white beard and another guy with red skin horns and a pointy tail really fucks up a lot of people in discussion of religious/spiritual topics. if god is everything that is, he has to be some of the shit that we don't necessarily like.

The devil had free will, used it to go against God (which is why he isn't an aspect of God), and was punished.

After this incident free will was removed from the angels who stayed on God's side (I'm not sure if the same happened to the third who allied with Satan).

Everything is within God, yet separate from it. The light is within everything even in bad things. The Secret Book of John talks about how even though the demiurge came by mistake he still has some substance from God and does things that work even against himself b/c of his ignorance... Because, the Gnostic True God of Love, Wisdom, and Fullness well loves all even the evil things will be redeemed in time... Yes that includes some infamous killers of history to... IN TIME

In my cosmology of the Angels, they act in accordance with gods will as well since he is within them... This is not some Borg like from Star Trek but because, there true will is aligned with Gods' will. Just like us humans, our true will is in alignment with God's will... Notice I say True Will not just our will, since that might imply our egocentric tendencies.

Blah Blah

The devil is a very interesting myth. One, just look at the book of Job. That book implies that anything bad that happens to you happens because god wants it.

Second, the imagery is so fun, it's like a puzzle. You can see some influence of Pan the mutant goat piper, Poseidon, and some creativity on the part of Dante because he hated a lot of people and tailored his book to suit them.

In th Gnostic Tradition The Demiurge (Devil) is created by mistake when God goes Mad and loses his wisdom to the outside of the fullness. Through these events mankind is enslaved in a world that is less than perfect from the Fullness, this is the physical realm.

So The Devil came by "mistake" if the word can be understood the way I hope seems appropriate to use...

The physical realm is not entire evil but mostly evil and is ruled by the demiurge aka christian devil. Under this view it becomes amazing how deep the level of ignorance really goes and just how much evil is in the world.

Im still learning about Gnostic Viewpoint, this is my interpretation of it...

Uh, not any Gnostic work I've ever read. They tended to consider Yahweh (called Yaltabaoth by some groups at the time) to be the Demiurge and evil, and some look very favourably on both Cain and the Devil for opposing him.

Edit: That said, I don't think I've read the Apocryphon of John within the last 3 or 4 years, if at all.

I am god.

So are you.

I am the devil.

So are you.

I am everything.

So are you.

OP, do remember the Bible is mostly myth and metaphor, especially the stuff about the devil, and the numerous contradictions.

For instance, in the Book of Job, the devil seems to be on pretty good terms with God.

In the book of Job, God and Satan were not on good terms. Satan went to God, asking him if Job was really loyal to him, and God, trying to prove a point, let Satan do all of those things to Job. And Job remained loyal to God, no matter how much Satan wanted Job to bow to him. And God doubled his riches.

NKJ version.

Goddidit.

Uh, not any Gnostic work I've ever read. They tended to consider Yahweh (called Yaltabaoth by some groups at the time) to be the Demiurge and evil, and some look very favourably on both Cain and the Devil for opposing him.

Edit: That said, I don't think I've read the Apocryphon of John within the last 3 or 4 years, if at all.

I read the Apocryphon of John very recently, Yaldaboth aka Yahweh had the sparks of The Pleroma in him by his own ignorance he brought that light into everyone, the light is in everything even the lowest thing. He is his own key to his own undoing.