One of the most troublesome things about the Abrahamic religions in general, and Christianity in particular, is that they are theologies of separation. The Jews claim to be God's chosen people (separate from and superior to all others)--despite thousands of years of evidence to the contrary. Muslim extremists think their God wants them to kill all non-Muslims (separate from them)--and even some other Muslims, who differ on such burning issues as what should have happened when Mohammad died. Some Christians think they are somehow above gays and other minority groups--and it wasn't long ago that many "good" Christians claimed that the Bible sanctioned enslaving black people--more separation.

Even some of Christianitys primal myths stress separation--Adam and Eve being booted out of the Garden of Eden, for instance, and Satan being cast out of heaven--for the flimsiest of reasons. Today, many Christians see themselves as separate from God--that God is somewhere "up there" or "out there", not here with us, not in our hearts--as Jesus himself reminded us, saying that"the kingdom of God is within you." They call churches "houses of God," as if the infinite and ultimate could be confined to a building.

So, what's the problem?

The problem is, that religion has thus separated man from God, man from man, man from woman--some even telling man that he is above woman, even as it claims that God is above man--thus setting the stage for the greatest travesties ever foisted upon half of the human race.

The problem is, that virtually all the world's ills--poverty, war, hunger stem, ultimately, from the illusion of separation. That is, the notion that one nation or religion or ethnicity or sexual orientation is somehow separate from and better than another. This is why so many of us hate and fear and envy one another. This is why we rape and kill. But know this--your neighbor is not your enemy--your only enemy is fear.

The greatest metaphysical truth--and one of the hardest to grasp intellectually--is that AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL we are All One. All of us, even the least of our brethren.

Verily it is written--act as if you are separate from no one and nothing, and you will heal your world tomorrow.

This is the greatest secret of all time.

Wow, that was pretty good :D

I see truth in it all, the only draw back is that people want to rest upon the fact that at the end of the day, you are better than that guy.

It's a comforting thought to know you are better than someone. And it is terrifying to know, in reality, you are no better than anyone and no one is better than you. Even the AIDs afflicted baby in africa is equal to you and everyone else.

Now, I am sure somewhere in my head, I am happy that I am 'better' than someone. But I try my hardest to not let ridiculous thoughts like that control me or affect what I do or think.

It's one thing to feel proud of your own accomplishments, and another to put yourself on a pedestal above other human beings. As much as we are fundamentally alike, we are all dinstinctively different.

While I do subscribe to the notion that "we are all one" with all other sentient beings - in that we share the same physical world and are all bound to natural laws - I cannot extend the same to the product of our individual minds: our qualia, or our "raw feels".

Separation is a common, recurring theme in nature. There's an absoluteness to complete unification (if even possible via mental states) that would ultimately, naturally disintegrate upon itself. Opposites are necessary. Contrast can be beautiful.

While it can be a nice, abstract theory to muse on while you're searching for the "highest level", preaching that ideology and applying it to all levels of human understanding, magnifying it's central theme to apply to every one and every thing would be the equivalent of brainwashing us into forgetting what it's like to be us. It slays the intrinsic individuality we rely on as an expression of who we are. Not to mention that it would destroy any semblance of diversity in perspective.

I can have awe, admiration and respect for other living beings while still not having to feel as though we are all mentally interconnected and riding on the same train of universal perspective. I can celebrate our differences without feeling superiority or ascendancy.

I like feeling subjectively secure and confident in my own individual thought processes. I want to entertain the fact that I might be an exclusive entity that is unique among the other infinite number of unique, separate entities.

Verily, I am writing: ;)

I am different "inside" from everyone and everything; I will use this most intimate philosophy to guide me into appreciating those who are unlike me, in spite of our differences. Respect for that which is kindred to me comes easily - respect for that which is not is a huge accomplishment worth striving for if I want to realize the full scope of the love and compassion I know I'm capable of.

Af, your post reminded me of the God of the Bible. It also reminded me of Neon Genesis Evangelion and how

*SPOILER* Shinji rejected instrumentality at the end*/SPOILER*

*Sniff* I love that Anime...

Im not going to lie the Abrahamic Exoteric Religions of The West are divisional and is more of a means to an end of controlling people by feeding the ego "That somehow we are better than the rest." Which is what I see alot in Evangelizing Religions or Religions that exalt themselves. However, remain to secretive and be a source to truth and redemption than people accuse you of being elitist. This is the story of the Gnostic:

That people read the Gnostic works (Nag Hammadi, Dead Sea Scrolls, other uncovered documents) Literally, instead of trying to understand it symbolically, metaphorically or by allegory! Because of literalist interpretation The Gnostic are labeled as "A Secret World-Hating Elitist organization, claiming to have the only key to salvation which is a secret magical power called Gnosis!" Thats how orthodoxy (which as was pointed out by ArmsMerchant seems to like to Divide and Conquer) defines Gnosticism!

In truth the Gnostics believed we are God, and the world around us is largely flawed, although it maintains some beauty it only is a representation of the world above or The Fullness!

We have fallen to a lesser God (Yahweh, Jehovah, etc...) of the Old Testament who seeks to control us by means of Moral Control Values, Laws and Rules that have no value but to control us. The submission, the moral observances are not salvic to a Gnostic but insight and deep introspection.

The New Testament God did not worry about who are he cared about what you did, your actions which represented you as such. The Gnostic's took that a step further saying that you are God but you need to understand this at it is, not as its been understood what a God represents. This will lead to Glorious Reunification!

The point I'm trying to make is that not all religions seek to divide but to unify while maintaining an individual right to your life!

I am different "inside" from everyone and everything; I will use this most intimate philosophy to guide me into appreciating those who are unlike me, in spite of our differences. Respect for that which is kindred to me comes easily - respect for that which is not is a huge accomplishment worth striving for if I want to realize the full scope of the love and compassion I know I'm capable of.

Is this what you think of the depths of love?

That it pierces the darkness. That those in the darkness mourn the sight of it, and do not see it?

That it is a great success to hold it for an enemy as a brother.

That it can bring joy to those in turmoil.

That it is partnered with patience and trust.

That it is easier for a humble man to hold than a man of great wealth.

Some Christians think they are somehow above gays and other minority groups--and it wasn't long ago that many "good" Christians claimed that the Bible sanctioned enslaving black people--more separation.

They believe that gays are commiting a constant act of sin. They are putting themselves above sin. From their perspective, there is nothing wrong w/ that. The new testament bible also does not sanction enslaving black people..


Even some of Christianitys primal myths stress separation--Adam and Eve being booted out of the Garden of Eden, for instance, and Satan being cast out of heaven--for the flimsiest of reasons.


You should remember that the old testament is the Jew book. Many Christians believe that the old testament is metaphorical, and that is all. Many don't believe anything in the old testament except for the phrophecies.


Today, many Christians see themselves as separate from God--that God is somewhere "up there" or "out there", not here with us, not in our hearts--as Jesus himself reminded us, saying that"the kingdom of God is within you." They call churches "houses of God," as if the infinite and ultimate could be confined to a building.

??? This is NOT what Christianity is about. You must not be a Christian (obviously) or no of any practicing Christians. None of us think we are "seperate from God"? What the fuck? You moderate this forum and you think that Christians consider themselves seperate? I am not going to even bother debating this, such a joke.


The problem is, that religion has thus separated man from God, man from man, man from woman--some even telling man that he is above woman,


Agreed.


even as it claims that God is above man--thus setting the stage for the greatest travesties ever foisted upon half of the human race.

Disagreed. God is far superior to man. This is blatantly obvious and again doesn't need to be debated. (You could always say "well god doesn't exist so he isn't superior," but I'm arguing from a standpoint that God does exist.)


The problem is, that virtually all the world's ills--poverty, war, hunger stem, ultimately, from the illusion of separation. That is, the notion that one nation or religion or ethnicity or sexual orientation is somehow separate from and better than another. This is why so many of us hate and fear and envy one another. This is why we rape and kill. But know this--your neighbor is not your enemy--your only enemy is fear.

Hmm you seem to think that everyone is equal and not different from another?

The greatest metaphysical truth--and one of the hardest to grasp intellectually--is that we are All One. All of us, even the least of our brethren.

No, this is not a truth, this is an opinion. An opinion that is not even shared by the majority of people in the world. You need at LEAST 50% to sound creditable when calling something a "truth." Just because it is your, and maybe a billion other people's philosophy doesn't make it a truth. Ya need at least 3bil.

Just because you say "and one of the hardest to grasp intellectually" again doesn't mean anything. You are using that as an argumentative technique to convinse people that "oh i want to be teh intellecutlar so i must agree!"

How is everyone alike? Everyone is obviously different and many people are "better" and "worse" then others in different perspectives and situations. Everyone is not the same and should not be treated the same.


This is the greatest secret of all time.

LOL@U

I don't fully agree with you with the whole "Oneness" thing. I believe we are all parts of a greater machine, like that of atoms are part of a greater organism but we are still seperate entities with the ability to make decisions, however it is best for us to be part of this One as one atom or bolt or whatever, is basically useless but put in a machine can do a hell of a lot.

Is this what you think of the depths of love?



Pretty much. But before you pigeon-hole me into some esoteric belief system, I firmly believe this is something everyone is capable of, without divine instruction or inspiration.


In truth the Gnostics believed we are God, and the world around us is largely flawed, although it maintains some beauty it only is a representation of the world above or The Fullness!

Exclusiveness like this, which demands "glorifying" and "reunification" and believing you are God-like, enlightened, more intellectually and spiritually in-tune than the average man ... is a distraction, an unnecessary and selfish goal towards the mystery of "Salvation", as if there is a divine force out there that must save us from ourselves, give us a nudge closer to eternal life, and bestow upon us truths that remains cloaked behind metaphors and symbols.

It's a means to an end if your goal is to become somehow "blessed" with eternal life. I simply believe that the quest for eternal life is a vain attempt to convince ourselves that we should be rewarded after our deaths for reaching our full potential during life. I believe the reward is self-evident in this lifetime.

Alienating people never seems to be a good idea.

I don't fully agree with you with the whole "Oneness" thing. I believe we are all parts of a greater machine, like that of atoms are part of a greater organism but we are still seperate entities with the ability to make decisions, however it is best for us to be part of this One as one atom or bolt or whatever, is basically useless but put in a machine can do a hell of a lot.

Points made. I failed to make myself clear, just did some editing, will probably do more.

But think of the cells in your body--heart cells, lung cells, brain cells, whatever. They are different, have different functions--but they are all part of ONE body. And none of them are superior or inferior to any other.

At the mundane level, separateness is an illusion, but it is a useful and necessary one--it is needed for self-definition. We can only know ourselves, know what we are, and decide what we want to be--in relation to other people.

But at the very highest, most tippy-top, makes you dizzy to peek down level, we are All One.

And "We" means everything--us domesticated primates, other critters, rocks, trees, prions--whatever.

We are all cells in the body of God.

Verily, I am writing: ;)

I am different "inside" from everyone and everything;


And in that, you are the same. ;)

Points made. I failed to make myself clear, just did some editing, will probably do more.

But think of the cells in your body--heart cells, lung cells, brain cells, whatever. They are different, have different functions--but they are all part of ONE body. And none of them are superior or inferior to any other.

At the mundane level, separateness is an illusion, but it is a useful and necessary one--it is needed for self-definition. We can only know ourselves, know what we are, and decide what we want to be--in relation to other people.

But at the very highest, most tippy-top, makes you dizzy to peek down level, we are All One.

And "We" means everything--us domesticated primates, other critters, rocks, trees, prions--whatever.

We are all cells in the body of God.

Exactly :) but I prefer not to call it God, gives people the wrong impression...must come up with a better name for it when I get the time.

The problem is, that virtually all the world's ills--poverty, war, hunger stem, ultimately, from the illusion of separation. That is, the notion that one nation or religion or ethnicity or sexual orientation is somehow separate from and better than another. This is why so many of us hate and fear and envy one another. This is why we rape and kill. But know this--your neighbor is not your enemy--your only enemy is fear.

The greatest metaphysical truth--and one of the hardest to grasp intellectually--is that AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL we are All One. All of us, even the least of our brethren.

Af, your post reminded me of the God of the Bible. It also reminded me of Neon Genesis Evangelion and how

*SPOILER* Shinji rejected instrumentality at the end*/SPOILER*

*Sniff* I love that Anime...

Funny you should mention anime, because I was thinking about 1 specifically that portrays the nature of man rather well and touches on what AM said here.

The series is called Ultimate Survivor Kaiji (http://www.veoh.com/videos/v1268215nZXt6zXj?searchId=1773830046643952884&rank=0) and it's about this guy that ends up in a massive amount of debt as a result of a friend who defaulted on a loan he co-signed for. The lenders are basically professional mobsters and are charging ridiculous interest rates, of course, and as a result his family gets threatened if he doesn't pay the loan. Now someone like him would have to work most their life just to pay off that kind of debt, so what they do is offer him an alternative, and that is to go aboard this gambling ship for 1 night, If he is amongst one of the lucky ones, he will have his debt cancelled overnight or even come out on top with big bucks. So they convince him to get on there with the artificial scarcity angle by saying there's only a limited number of seats, and he ends up going on the ship.

There they are loaned money. The lower limit is like $10K and the upper limit is $100K. The interest rate is 1.5%, compounds every 10 minutes, and the cruise is scheduled to be 4 hours long. Naturally, nobody wants to take money at that rate, but it's either this or spend the rest of their life trying to pay off a hopeless debt, so they reluctantly take the money. Immediately, Kaiji gets scammed right away by a smooth con-artist that told him of a surefire way to win by having deliberate tie matches with a partner. The guy stabs him in the back for his own personal gain instead though. Nobody knows what happens to those who lose on the ship, but there is rumors that they are sold into slavery or used in bizarre medical experiments.

So he realizes that he's in the bowels of hell and he finds the guy on the boat that defaulted on the loan and is reponsible for him being there in the first place, and they join up with another guy in a deperate bid to survive since the flames of hell beckon their destruction as they're almost out of the game. The game on this ship isn't like normal casino game either. They pit the debtors up against each other, so it's a zero-sum game. Winners gain from losers.

Well due to the format and rules of the game, since the time has just about run out he makes a decision to entrust everything to his 2 partners and rely on them to buy him back during the final stage of the game, where he expects there to be an exchange of resources between players; i.e. money for items needed to successfully complete the game. His partners thank him for everything and vow to save him as he is being led off by one of the hired goons working on the ship. Those 2 guys would have been screwed without him, and it is by his efforts, cunning, and sound decision making that they ever managed to make it as far as they did. They would have went to hell without him. He ends up being stripped and thrown in a back room behind a one-way mirror until the end of that final period with the rest of the people that were knocked out of the game. A voice from the front by the mirror calls out to him:

"Hey, you. Come over here. You think you'll be saved, right? Come here. These are the front-row seats. The seats for those who will be saved."

Kaiji heads that way and asks:

"You're sure that you'll be saved?"

The man, who can be seen holding a large wad of cash, replies:

"Of course. I wouldn't have considered taking this role otherwise. Well, my debts in the outside world are too huge, so I guess I didn't have much of a choice anyway."

Then it is revealed that he was signalling his partners from behind the 2 way mirror, giving his accomplices outside on the floor information about other players so that they could compete against those they had the best chances against and win.

While back there, he finds another guy named Ishida that went back there on the same promise of being bailed out by a teammate and surviving in return for information about other players. Ishida discovers that he'd been scammed and left for dead since the guy that was supposed to bail him out can be seen upstairs in the winners lounge having a victory beer.

The man with the cash comments thusly:

"Who the hell would save that guy on this ship? Being betrayed is the norm here. Even if his partner struck it big, nothing would change. To him, this guy is nothing but a pawn."

Kaiji interjects:

"Stop it! It's partially his fault for not developing a true friendship with his partner, but you still shouldn't put it like that!"

The man responds:

"Don't get so pissed. I'll stop if you tell me to. There's no point in kicking a dead dog. Except... there is one thing.

You said something about a 'true friendship'. What exactly is that?"

Kaiji replies:

"What? We overcame the game and we.. It's a trust that exists between us that transcends betraying or being betrayed."

The man says:

"What the hell is that?

You're gonna die.

If you want to be saved from this room, you have to carry money like me or something valuable to the outside world. And here you are, spouting nonsense about true friendship. "

Kaiji retorts:

"Shut up! You don't know anything about me or my friends or the hell we had to go through to get this far!"!

Then the exchange period commences where people are bidding outrageous sums of money in order to obtain the minimum requirements necessary to meet the victory conditions of the game. It is then that one of his partners betrays him and convinces his other partner to do so, for if they trade in the items necessary to save Kaiji then they will all leave the ship in debt, but if they forsake him and sell the items to the other players instead, not only will they cancel their debt, but they will end up with a large portion of cash left over.

The man with the cash laughs and comments:

"It's natural for them to cut you off. Human sentiments are transient. Decisions will always be made for material gains. There's no way you'll be saved if you're empty-handed. That's a given. Looks like you figured it out a little too late, Kaiji. The only thing you'll get from friendships and verbal promises are postcards or souvenirs from their vacations; or some useless trash called 'memories'. That's all you'll get.

What's really important can never be handed over with friendship alone. People only move when they have something to gain. If you really want to get what you want in this world, you need money! Money is the only deciding factor!

In the end, you two overlooked that piece of common sense. I managed to keep my focus on at least that, so now I can survive. You two can live the rest of your lives comforting each other."

Later on in the series, we come across the wealthy old man who is orchestrating the entire thing for his own amusement, and he says:

"The world is overflowing with painful cries of resentment. The groans of tens and hundreds support the luxuries of one. That is the structure of this world. I understood that reality, and continued to tell myself that no matter what happens, I will never help anyone. Of course, I have money. Plenty of it. But still, I will never help anyone.

Do you know why? It is here. This is most important."

He then proceeds to poke a man's broken leg with his cane who is writhing on the floor in pain.

"This is it. This is indeed it. As you can see, when I fiddle with his broken leg, he's in pain. But it does not hurt me at all. Nor does it hurt you. It is this principle. This principle is the only truth.

It is quite fine. There is no problem no matter how much someone else suffers. The only thing that matters is my own happiness."

The old man then gives a signal to one of his goons and he pays the guy on the floor with the broken leg.

He continues:

"We informed them beforehand that the ones that get special treatment from me will receive a bonus. People are able to endure quite a few things for the sake of money before them. The rich take advantage of that characteristic, forcing others to serve for the rest of their lives, allowing us to live in comfort.

Kings do not become kings by themselves. If the poor rise up together, declaring that they do not want money, kings will be overthrown. However, the poor seek money so that they may become kings themselves, which in turn only strengthens the position of the current king.

They cannot escape that fruitless paradox.

Kings cannot be defeated so long as the poor desire money. The poor will continue to be bound. The kings will be wary and provide just enough comfort so that an uprising does not occur - regardless of how hard kings drive them."

This is what divides the haves from the have-nots.

Who is going to part with their own resources to save somebody else?

Do you really think that those with the necessary resources and means are going to devote them to saving what is seen as nonproductive elements of society?

Of course they won't!

It's like the guy in the back room with the cash said. People only move when they have something to gain. Anybody with a basic understanding of economics knows this full well. Nobody is going to engage in a transaction in which they perceive they will not gain more than they are paying. They don't want useless trash like feel-good sentiments. They want the goods. Things of actual objective value that can be traded in the real world.

ArmsMerchant hit the nail on the head with this whole separation thing. Everybody does it. We separate the strong form the weak, the stupid from the intelligent, the rich from the poor, the Republicans from the Democrats, different ethnicities, "us" vs. "them" et al.

Separation is ingrained in everything we do. It has become a fundament of not only our culture, but the rest of the world as well.

That is not about to change. That's why we're killing brown people in aggressive invasions for oil. There is not enough resources in the world to continue going on like we are right now, so rather than solve the problem, the ruling elite have decided to secure enough so that they might be comfortable while passing the expenses on to the future. Their leg isn't the one that is broken and being poked, they don't feel the pain, so why should they care?

So you see, even in the end, what AM said and what the cold, selfish pragmatists believe are separate! There is separation in everything!

Even if AM is right, how can you go on with collectivist thinking when everyone else has a separatist mentality? You will be separated out of the picture with that kind of thinking.

You have to think like the distrusting guy with the cash and the wealthy old man to make it in a world that separates everything.

They believe that gays are commiting a constant act of sin. They are putting themselves above sin. From their perspective, there is nothing wrong w/ that.


Agreed. And from Hitler's perspective, there was nothing wrong wth killing off a few million Jews, Poles, Roms, gays. . . . .


Except that rereading that post, I am a little confused by the pronouns,as it is not clear what their antecedants are supposed to be. "They"and "their"--does BP mean Christians or gays?

Agreed. And from Hitler's perspective, there was nothing wrong wth killing off a few million Jews, Poles, Roms, gays. . . . .


Except that rereading that post, I am a little confused by the pronouns,as it is not clear what their antecedants are supposed to be. "They"and "their"--does BP mean Christians or gays?

How can you compare Christians that say "Gays are immoral" and protest it to HITLER who killed Jews? That is not even comparing apples and oranges lol.

You're a mod, homie, get your shit together.

*In the first paragrah, "their" is refering to Christians.

Exclusiveness like this, which demands "glorifying" and "reunification" and believing you are God-like, enlightened, more intellectually and spiritually in-tune than the average man ... is a distraction, an unnecessary and selfish goal towards the mystery of "Salvation", as if there is a divine force out there that must save us from ourselves, give us a nudge closer to eternal life, and bestow upon us truths that remains cloaked behind metaphors and symbols.

It's a means to an end if your goal is to become somehow "blessed" with eternal life. I simply believe that the quest for eternal life is a vain attempt to convince ourselves that we should be rewarded after our deaths for reaching our full potential during life. I believe the reward is self-evident in this lifetime.

Gnosticism has been accused of elitism, of being exclusive... However, I would say they were too inclusive. However, nonetheless to try and explain to the blind (which is what the masses are) what they cannot understand is useless. The real reason why gnostics are inclusive is because, they welcome those who have searched and awakened from being part of the ignorant masses.

Part of the gnostic awareness is that physical allieving of suffering is not enough but spiritual allievment is required as well, however, MOST BELIEVE the allievement of physical is enough.

The center of gnosticism is the message that "one should follow the light as one see's fit for there is enough light for all so that at last we may see all things turned into light sweet joyous light."

Another spiritual teacher said: In all the world there are two kinds of people: Those who know and those who dont know.

Ultimately, Gnosticism is a collection of individuals who seek to find the light in themselves and there own life. Unlike exoteric world religions which are more or else the collection of the masses which promote an enforced non lively sameness for all.

In fact for all you logic people out there, it would be illogical to submit to the peer pressure of the group, there were experiments done that involved a person to believe the truth about something and the aim was for the test subject to have that truthful view to be changed into the false view everyone else was told to believe. Guess what illogically, the test subject fell to the trick and believed the false view, knowing before time the TRUTH to [fill-in the blank].

For example:

"You know the chalkboard is green you walk into a classroom with a green chalkboard and the teacher says 'lets write on the orange chalkboard' that you may say 'no its green!' Than suddenly everyone looks at you funny and they say 'Are you nuts? Its orange!' Under this peer pressure of everyone but you seeing orange; you agree to the color of the chalkboard as orange as well (albeit incorrect). You may change your view on the color of the chalkboard." RIGHT NOW, you may say "No I Wouldn't" but if I caught you off guard or without prior knowledge to this test you maybe subjected to do what I described.

^ This is the way of the Gnostic the one person who believes the chalkboard is Green and DOES NOT feel the need to change what he knows as truth about the color of the chalkboard. But since many will change there view this makes the few look elitist but what it really does is show how the majority are ignorant and potentially by there own omission in this instance the need to feel like your not going insane for seeing a different color chalkboard than everyone else.

I hope you understand a little bit more about the exclusivity v. inclusivity of Gnosticism... I know I do... Oh and btw the Goal of The Gnostic is Gnosis To Know Yourself!

[QUOTE=TheBlackPope;9666789]How can you compare Christians that say "Gays are immoral" and protest it to HITLER who killed Jews? That is not even comparing apples and oranges lol.

QUOTE]

Actually, it is comparing one single Christian with a bunch of Christians, all of whom are/were biased against gays and other minority groups.

Actually, it is comparing one single Christian with a bunch of Christians, all of whom are/were biased against gays and other minority groups.

No, you are comparing apples and oranges and you are being blatantly stupid. YOU ARE A FUCKING MOD! No mods, not even meta that piece of shit, are as retarded as you.

One group of Christians (who also persecuted Catholics, mind you) who went nuts and killed a bunch of gays are different then another group of Christians who believe that homosexuality is a sin and speak out against it peacefully.

Shame on you if you can not see this.

^okay, first of all, you really need to chill with the personal insults--that sort of nonsense might be acceptable in HB or B&M -- not here.

Secondly, how is it"nonviolent" to picket the funeral of a dead gay,and shout verbal abuse at the mourners?

Pretty much. But before you pigeon-hole me into some esoteric belief system, I firmly believe this is something everyone is capable of, without divine instruction or inspiration.

No worries Femme. I try not to ask trap questions. I'm glad that's what you think of love. :) It truly is magnificent, isn't it?

It's a means to an end if your goal is to become somehow "blessed" with eternal life. I simply believe that the quest for eternal life is a vain attempt to convince ourselves that we should be rewarded after our deaths for reaching our full potential during life. I believe the reward is self-evident in this lifetime.

I like that.

The center of gnosticism is the message that "one should follow the light as one see's fit for there is enough light for all so that at last we may see all things turned into light sweet joyous light."......

I hope you understand a little bit more about the exclusivity v. inclusivity of Gnosticism... I know I do... Oh and btw the Goal of The Gnostic is Gnosis To Know Yourself!

I understand that the "light" you seek as a gnostic is no different than the "light" I see as an atheist. I understand that "light" is impossible to define across the board. I can feel as confident and fulfilled by the light I describe as you do your mystical version. I understand that you believe your path to be the righteous one. I suppose the only real fundamental difference is that you believe your "light" can only be captured by believing in a Supreme Force - and I believe my "light" is available to everyone, with or without an esoteric belief system to help it seem more attractive and mystical.

I'm under the impression, currently and for some time, that the 'light' is the supreme force. Especially as a Christian: "I am the light that pierces the darkness."

I suppose the only real fundamental difference is:
1) That you believe your "light" can only be captured by believing in a Supreme Force - and I believe my "light" is available to everyone.
2) With or without an esoteric belief system to help it seem more attractive and mystical.

1) If your light is my light, than there is a source to that light, (which is what is consider to the Gnostic the Transcendental Source, The Father, The One) am I right? Without a source of Light than there is darkness... Am I right? The Light, Our Light is available to everyone, all they have to understand is how much of a prison they are really in, how to break free from that prison, and now themselves in such a fundamental way that it would change them forever. (that is easier said than done)

The religious powers that be are condemning Gnosticism for some reason, the root of Gnosticism is Gnosis. They most be attacking Gnosis because, if it should ever be discovered by everyone the system would fail and everyone would be truly free!

2) Again if your light is my light, it goes beyond human logic and reasoning. Words alone cannot describe it, this is why it is esoteric, mystical and to those who follow it would find it attractive:

- Esoteric because, theres more than what meets the eye and the fundamentalist notion of a literal word for word does not apply and the idea of "what you see is what you get" attitude does not apply.

- Mystical because, it is explained in metaphor, allegory, and myth. Its creative and to the powers that be dangerous down right dangerous to the system that has enslaved us.

- Attractive because, a person could agree, a person could maintain interest in it or find it insightful.

Logic is cold, sterile, and literal... There is no life in it unless we give it a meaning, a purpose for it. Once you merge your creative (spiritual side) with your Logical (physical) side that is when you will be a full human being. To be more than the other you are imbalanced and thus not full.

BTW, I'm not bashing logic... Despite the words I used to describe it. There is a time and a place for logic, to me logic is man's new toy and in time the toy will become a tool and we will know when to use it and when to look to our spiritual side.

I'm under the impression, currently and for some time, that the 'light' is the supreme force. Especially as a Christian: "I am the light that pierces the darkness."

That quote has Gnostic flavoring...

g'father -

I'll have to reply after work today, as I'm pretty covered up - but - just curious ... why the eye roll? Is it a chore or an annoyance communicating with someone who is not quite on your same page of *enlightenment*?

P.S. My "light" is personal motivation. It can be explained easily in non-esoteric language and without using mystic-speech.

g'father -

I'll have to reply after work today, as I'm pretty covered up - but - just curious ... why the eye roll? Is it a chore or an annoyance communicating with someone who is not quite on your same page of *enlightenment*?

P.S. My "light" is personal motivation. It can be explained easily in non-esoteric language and without using mystic-speech.

I dont know why the eye roll... I thought i clicked the Light-bulb option... I dont find it a chore, no not at all to show people where I am coming from... Theres a saying about how people around you will present you to yourself, I find it an interesting concept.

My Light is the indwelling potential that is within us that seeks to be freed.

I really liked the give and take in the last few posts, and will therefore bump the whole shebang.

Bumped because it ties in with with Dirk's "JAH" thread.