Or close to it? Is it worth pursuing?

I am a fully enlightene being.

Lick my chakra, bitch!


/has no idea what that means

I took a yoga class to fill my PE requirement for college.

Figure Nirvana can't be far off.

I'm not quite enlightened, but I've been filled with enough knowledge from another source for me to understand most of what an enlightened individual would, and still can't get myself to align my actions and impulses with my beliefs and realization of how I should "be."

To become enlightened all you have to do is detach yourself from this physical world as much as possible. People may tell you it is more complicated than this, but it is not.

Things like simply be or exist, will come from an enlightened person's mouth quite a bit. It is not a useful philosophy. It is epic laziness of thought. Nothing more.

Why settle for enlightenment? Shoot for godliness.

im so enlightened that i can float in the air, sometimes even fly.

I'm not quite enlightened, but I've been filled with enough knowledge from another source for me to understand most of what an enlightened individual would, and still can't get myself to align my actions and impulses with my beliefs and realization of how I should "be."

what is this source?
what would an enlightened individual understand?
how do you know your current actions are not the real you?
and how do you know what this "ideal" of you should be?

what is this source?
what would an enlightened individual understand?
how do you know your current actions are not the real you?
and how do you know what this "ideal" of you should be?

I cannot give a name to the source, because I have many different understandings of it.

The individual would understand what it takes to advance spiritually, and many of the details of this spirituality.

My actions are the real me, but ultimately, I should change them because they aren't helping me. I'm just not ready to yet because physical pleasure is so friggin' addictive

How do I know what I should be? I'm not sure, I just do.

I cannot give a name to the source, because I have many different understandings of it.

The individual would understand what it takes to advance spiritually, and many of the details of this spirituality.

My actions are the real me, but ultimately, I should change them because they aren't helping me. I'm just not ready to yet because physical pleasure is so friggin' addictive

How do I know what I should be? I'm not sure, I just do.

That answers no questions it just brings more.

You don't need to give a name how about description?
What are these understandings details?
I would have thought that enlightenment was a personal thing. How can ~you~ become enlightened through the influence of some external?
If you do not know what this source is how do you know it is right?

I have read, and accept as true, that spirituality is 99 percent repetition.

The illusion of separation and the superstition of materialism are so seductive, so pervasive, that one must work on a daily basis to transcend them.

I have no idea what OP means by enlightened, which probably makles two of us. A few times, I have fleetingly attained the seventh level of higher consciousness, unity consciousness.

Maybe someone here is.

Attaining complete awareness is rare and short lived from my experience. I've had many glimpses of enlightenment, but I am not 'enlightened' in the sense of being consistently in the moment. Contrarily to what BP says, 'simply being' pushes the brain into complete over-drive and brings about more thought in a few seconds than nearly a lifetime of the struggling soul...everything is completely thought-filled and perfect because the mind is not wasting itself on remembering shit that doesn't exist anymore, nor is it wasting itself day-dreaming about what 'could be'. Temporary perfection, I suppose it could be called; it is complete and perfect tune with one's environment. It brings about attributes humans are not typically in possession of, including telepathy, levitation, searching of hearts, healing...and I'm sure more...but I can't hold into this state of being long enough to find them all.

If anyone says they are enlightened than there not... "Those who say don't know and those who know don't say." Also, how would you know your enlightened? "You honestly and whole-heartedly just know that you are enlightened"

its not just detaching yourself... from worldly possessions..

its more.

anyways you know none of you weed smokin computer using guys are not enlightened and dont know shit. lol. yes same goes for me.

Anyone who thinks that they're enlightened isn't.

Maybe someone here is.

Attaining complete awareness is rare and short lived from my experience. I've had many glimpses of enlightenment, but I am not 'enlightened' in the sense of being consistently in the moment. Contrarily to what BP says, 'simply being' pushes the brain into complete over-drive and brings about more thought in a few seconds than nearly a lifetime of the struggling soul...everything is completely thought-filled and perfect because the mind is not wasting itself on remembering shit that doesn't exist anymore, nor is it wasting itself day-dreaming about what 'could be'. Temporary perfection, I suppose it could be called; it is complete and perfect tune with one's environment. It brings about attributes humans are not typically in possession of, including telepathy, levitation, searching of hearts, healing...and I'm sure more...but I can't hold into this state of being long enough to find them all.

Looooooooooooooooool.

I like how people who aren't enlightened - by their own admission - get to decide not only what enlightenment is, but who is and who isn't enlightened. Amazing.

Good ole rust.

I don't believe in any paranormal/spiritual phenomena and I base my life solely on the study of scientific facts.
I am more enlightened than any of you ever will be.

I've had moments where I sure felt enlightened. Ever follow your own intuition blindly and arrive at a spot where just for a few fleeting seconds, everything just seems to come together?

Those rock. I wouldn't want to have an entire eternity of those moments, because to be vulnerable is to be human. I have absolutely no desire to *transcend* consciousness as I know it.

I betcha nirvana is nothin' but hype.

:/

I've had moments where I sure felt enlightened. Ever follow your own intuition blindly and arrive at a spot where just for a few fleeting seconds, everything just seems to come together?

Those rock. I wouldn't want to have an entire eternity of those moments, because to be vulnerable is to be human. I have absolutely no desire to *transcend* consciousness as I know it.

I betcha nirvana is nothin' but hype.

:/

I betcha Nirvana is no thing!

*giggles*

Well.... It made sense to me :(

I betcha Nirvana is no thing!

*giggles*

Well.... It made sense to me :(

Makes sense to me, too.

But AF's earlier point is well-taken. Those moments she spoke of were--in my view--as enlightened as one gets. But it would not be desireable to stay in that place 24/7.

E.J. Gold is probably the greatest modern proponent of Gurdjieffien metaphysics, and defines enlightenment as simply being awake. But Gold reminded us (in Practical Work on Self, one of the best books on transformational psychology ever written) that if we were ALL awake, all the time "we'd spend all our time looking at the sky, and nothing would get done."

At the highest level, separation is an illusion--but at the mundane level, it is a useful and necessary illusion.

We are reminded to live In the world, but not to be OF the world.

Makes sense to me, too.

But AF's earlier point is well-taken. Those moments she spoke of were--in my view--as enlightened as one gets. But it would not be desireable to stay in that place 24/7.

E.J. Gold is probably the greatest modern proponent of Gurdjieffien metaphysics, and defines enlightenment as simply being awake. But Gold reminded us (in Practical Work on Self, one of the best books on transformational psychology ever written) that if we were ALL awake, all the time "we'd spend all our time looking at the sky, and nothing would get done."

At the highest level, separation is an illusion--but at the mundane level, it is a useful and necessary illusion.

We are reminded to live In the world, but not to be OF the world.

This is true, I put faith in fact that that if I am not enlightened now, than I will be enlightened in the future, in the end we will all arrive to the ultimate truth, but right now we are learning small truths as we go along through the enlightenment process.

Word of wisdom for all you truthseekers out there: "It is not about the destination but the journey..." ;-)

I have had a moment of satori, which is zen enlightenment. It was earth shattering for about a day and then I got swept back into the ocean of daily life. It is quite the feeling I tell you.
As for is it worth it to strive for higher consciousness. Well it is my belief that higher and expanded consciousness is something everyone should strive for, enlightenment as I see it is not about an end goal, its not one click and you're above everything, it is a long hard battle to understand yourself and whats around you.
Just don't push yourself too hard, I challenged everything until the point of psychosis earlier this year, I had vivid hallucinations whilst sober on the subway. Know your limits, but push yourself, you won't comprehend any more than you have to unless you try. So get out there and question yourself and the status quo.

I've had moments where I sure felt enlightened. Ever follow your own intuition blindly and arrive at a spot where just for a few fleeting seconds, everything just seems to come together?

I've had those moments, they make the problems that occupy my mind all seem childishly simple. Fleeting those moments certainly are and these days I only have them (on the extremely rare occasion), in that strange twilight consciousness that exists on the edge of sleep.

In my case that twilight exists when I'm coming out of sleep, only for my percieved momentary genius to evaporate with rising alertness.

You'll know it happens when it happens. It is a rare phenomenom, but real.

And as they say, it is beyond the mind so speaking while in that state, the deepest state, is almost a stupid thing to do. Everything is just perfect in reality, and nothing more can be said. Every word is an attempt to limit. Things seem so backwards yet normal, like they were always fine, perfect but YOU were the one who was off course with nature. Nature was always as it is.

But sometimes you have to perform a trick to get yourself there, if youre in a million different places in your mind. This is the purpose of meditation techniques; to wake you up, and eventually bring you to a state where your mind is dissolved, and your awareness cannot become any sharper. How long you want it to last and how you go about dealing with daily life are up to you after. Just look up Buddha quotes in google. Everything the guy says comes from that perception, I know it.

Don't take my word for it though. This is not something you ever understand, but you sure can experience it. The job of the buddhas is to point out you can, and try and give you a method of getting there.

So to the original poster: who cares if someone here is enlightened? Will it bring you enlightenment? No it will not. But if you're interested, there are plenty of hints out there pointing the way. It's the task of holding yourself in complete stillness and awareness for long periods of time. Why can't you? Too much tv? Too much work? Too much bs? America is not very enlightened, but India has yet to have any major war. Wonder why.

There seem to be many different ways to attain an enlightenment but there also seem to be different forms of enlightenment that have slightly different tones.

I took the route of giving up hope. Surprisingly its quite liberating and confidence building to take responsibility for all your choices and not complain about things. If you don't like something then you change it yourself, if you want to, and accept what happens. No one deserves anything and can rise or fall by their own merits...or by the intervention of another.

I think enlightenment's motto is "Whatever."

Yea right India never goes to war. :rolleyes:

Yea right India never goes to war. :rolleyes:

What he said.

...India has yet to have any major war. Wonder why.

Please define "major".

According to wiki, the Indian Empire was a key allie in World War II--which should, I think, qualify as a "major war."

India devoloped nuclear technology less than a decade ago.

India is also the most religiously diverse country in the world.

Enlightenment is painfully simple.

Step one: Detach yourself from this material world as much as you can.
Step two: Enjoy enlightenment.

Pretty simple concept really. Not very useful either.

India devoloped nuclear technology less than a decade ago.

India is also the most religiously diverse country in the world.

Enlightenment is painfully simple.

Step one: Detach yourself from this material world as much as you can.
Step two: Enjoy enlightenment.

Pretty simple concept really. Not very useful either.

It's not that easy, or else we'd have some pretty zen homeless.

It's not that easy, or else we'd have some pretty zen homeless.

How many deep, meaningful, interesting conversations have you shared with the homeless?

Also, it is important to realize that many homeless people are junkies, drunks or insane. But find one who is homeless purely by choice (and not the consequence of another choice i.e. being a junkie), and you will see quite simply what it is to be enlightened.

When you talk to him about your problems (most likely resulting from a physical and material source) he will have nothing but zen like shit to offer b/c he exists outside of the primary source for your problems. Most of his "wisdom" will be to not worry about the material things, and variations on how to say that.

Simple.

You really think some homeless guy has time to approach zen or whatever you want to call it in between finding a new box house, scavenging enough food to survive and dealing with all his other worries? I think that having nothing at all could be worse. You would be spending all your time just trying to get something.

I think you all make far too much a deal about this materialism. In my opinion it isn' that you have to live with nothing give away all your shit and live like some monk. You just shouldn't let your life revolve around it.

Just cause I have a bunch of stuff doesn't mean anything. If you think it does maybe that is your materialism showing through.

@ creamofwarholsoup - Giving up hope? What kind of fucked idea is that? You can take repsonsibility for you choices, choose not to complain, change things and accept things all while hoping you can accomplish ☼great deed☼

You really think some homeless guy has time to approach zen or whatever you want to call it in between finding a new box house, scavenging enough food to survive and dealing with all his other worries? I think that having nothing at all could be worse. You would be spending all your time just trying to get something.

I think you all make far too much a deal about this materialism. In my opinion it isn' that you have to live with nothing give away all your shit and live like some monk. You just shouldn't let your life revolve around it.

Just cause I have a bunch of stuff doesn't mean anything. If you think it does maybe that is your materialism showing through.

@ creamofwarholsoup - Giving up hope? What kind of fucked idea is that? You can take repsonsibility for you choices, choose not to complain, change things and accept things all while hoping you can accomplish ☼great deed☼


Let me explain that I think enlightenment along with all theism is essentially a pant load. I was simply explaining a path to enlightenment.

All suffering comes from clinging to desires, eliminate desire, eliminate clinging, eliminate suffering.

In other words, do not desire. If you truly do not desire it will stand to reason that you will not desire a home, car, new clothes, etc.

Another way is to simply meditate about being enlightened until you convince youself that you are.

I would argue that pain is suffering bereft of desire.
You do not need to desire a pain free life to suffer from pain you will feel it regardless.

Or close to it? Is it worth pursuing?

Kinda sorta not really.

I would argue that pain is suffering bereft of desire.
You do not need to desire a pain free life to suffer from pain you will feel it regardless.

Then argue with Buddha and his four noble truths (most notably the second) that are fundamental buddhist teachings, not me.

Second noble truth on the origin of suffering.
"Now this ... is the noble truth of the origin of suffering: it is this craving which leads to renewed existence, accompanied by delight and lust, seeking delight here and there, that is, craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, craving for extermination."

It is important to note, before you broker an argument, these truths are not expressed as a hypothesis or tentative idea, rather the Buddha says:

“ These Four Noble Truths, monks, are actual, unerring, not otherwise. Therefore, they are called noble truths"



Or argue with the Hindu teachings:

Jnâna yoga teaches that there are four means to salvation:

Viveka - Discrimination: The ability to differentiate between what is real/eternal (Brahman) and what is unreal/temporal (everything else in the universe.)

Vairagya - Dispassion: After practice one should be able to "detach" her/himself from everything that is "temporary."


Two ways of detaching/dispassion

Mantra : Upon repeating a mantra such as OM NAMO NARAYANAYA or focusing on a koan (a Japanese question with no answer, such as what is the sound of one hand clapping or is a sound created if a tree falls in the forest

Shad-sampat - The 6 Virtues: Tranquility (control of the mind), Dama (control of the senses), Uparati (renunciation of activities that are not duties), Titiksha (endurance), Shraddha (faith), Samadhana (perfect concentration).

Mumukshutva - Intense longing for liberation from temporal limitations.



If you have, all on your own found a path to enlightenment, either just now in this post by arguing or through your tremendous life experience, congrats.

I personally, think it is all a bunch on nonsense.

Hey I am not looking for what all that says or looking for enlightenment :)

I am just punching holes and finding out what people think.

Anyone who is enlightened would not tell you that walking that path is worth any more or any less then anything else.

It cannot be weighed or valued against any expereince.

Im not enlightened but ill tell you this:


I had taken ectasy right: Nearly reached enlightenment its not about understanding/gaining its about just letting go and being the moment just lying on ground i was paralysed hard too explain man. Times play differently too. Karma is stopping you, all those past hurts/regrets/happytimes are getting in the way of the moment. Kids are often simple happy creatures so happened to us adults theres a deep connection. Hard too explain man.

Its beyond words or concepts and time. I cant imagine what nirvana would fell like i know it seems weird whyd youd wanna be nothing but trust me.


Drugs were good but after awhile my karma started to were back in ie worrying/bad habbits affecting me then i realised i lost the special moment but it taught me alot. Anyone else understand me.

Remember that vietnamese monk that burned himself didnt even flinch?

I don't believe in any paranormal/spiritual phenomena and I base my life solely on the study of scientific facts.
I am more enlightened than any of you ever will be.

You appear to be blinded by the superstition of materialsm. I hope--for your sake--that you transcend that some day.

You appear to be blinded by the superstition of materialsm. I hope--for your sake--that you transcend that some day.

Well thanks.
Bit hypocritical, seeing how you are blinded by the superstition and vagueness of spiritualism, but I appreciate your concern.

*Goes back to soldering electronics into useful circuits*

Well thanks.
Bit hypocritical, seeing how you are blinded by the superstition and vagueness of spiritualism, but I appreciate your concern.

*Goes back to soldering electronics into useful circuits*

Hey Q, what have you chosen as the purpose of your life/your main goal(s)?
What's your opinion on hedonism?

Honestly though...

It took ten years for Buddha to become enlightened. Ten YEARS before he was satisfied enough to get up. Buddha is a prince who had all his needs met all day and could just sit there and think. If it took someone with all that help TEN YEARS to become enlightened, itll take one of us at least like 30-40 years. Im starting to think it's a useless pursuit.

Honestly though...

It took ten years for Buddha to become enlightened. Ten YEARS before he was satisfied enough to get up. Buddha is a prince who had all his needs met all day and could just sit there and think. If it took someone with all that help TEN YEARS to become enlightened, itll take one of us at least like 30-40 years. Im starting to think it's a useless pursuit.

You sir need to study Buddhism better. Siddartha gave up his life as a prince to pursue the cure for suffering. He was not waited on hand and foot after this point, and it most certainly took more than ten years. He tried both extremes before finding the middle way.

Also enlightenment has no timeframe, it can be instantaneous and spontaneous according to many beliefs. Zen for instance believes in minor enlightenments happening often. So don't think for a second that to become enlightened takes x years, it can not be looked at in that way.

It could if we surveyed the monks asked them how far percentage wise they think they have got on their enlightenment, how many years they have been practising and work out some averages.

From what I've read on Buddha it clearly states that all his meals were brought to him. You know, when he was sitting under the tree that he sat for 10 years until *BAM* he was "enlightened". After TEN YEARS he decided that the key was moderation.

Discovering the middle way and becoming enlightened are very different. Another misconception. But I can point you to my dusty grade 11 world religions textbook just in case you delight in being proven wrong?

It could if we surveyed the monks asked them how far percentage wise they think they have got on their enlightenment, how many years they have been practising and work out some averages.

I'm pretty sure almost all of them would reply 0%.

If you logically deduce you're "enlightened", and then prance around declaring it to others..... doesn't sound like the traditional view of enlightenment to me, or any kind, really.

I certainly wouldn't say I am enlightened in any real way, or have any ability to comment on "enlightenment" as a concept. What's more, I think pursuing enlightenment as a "i can sit back having sorted life out, finally" is the kind of mindset which limits true "progress" itself. Dealing with the current moment, choosing the middle way, exploring yourself and "true nature".... often without expectations, and working on the fears that throws up..... now that's one step closer to something, I reckon.

It's not that easy, or else we'd have some pretty zen homeless.

I can think of one. In her youth, my wife spent a few years homeless, riding the rails, with arrest warrents out for her in several states. She was quite happy with what she had.

Personally, I spent a few years in an obscenely high-paying political sinecure I got in exchange for keeping quiet about some illegal stuff perpetrated by the governor's office--I was morally, emotionally and spiritually bankrupt. And killing myself with the drugs I got free through my health plan.

Today I can say I have never had less money or more happiness and fullfilment.

Yes but maybe that is because you were on prescription drugs and felt guilty about your shady dealings. Maybe not on these drugs and not engaging in moraaly grey deals you would have been happier despite your burden of money.

Maybe your wife was happy cause she was on the run ie. not in jail. Besides if she was a criminal how enlightened could she be? Depending on the crimes of course.

Yes but maybe that is because you were on prescription drugs and felt guilty about your shady dealings. Maybe not on these drugs and not engaging in moraaly grey deals you would have been happier despite your burden of money.

Maybe your wife was happy cause she was on the run ie. not in jail. Besides if she was a criminal how enlightened could she be? Depending on the crimes of course.

What do restrictive measures have to do with an unrestricted spirit?

What are you trying to say? It sounds good but what does it mean? Please elaborate.

Whatever it is what is going on in your life tends to effect your mind which is certainly not unrestricted while you are inhabiting a body. Unless you got some super skillz or something.

You appear to be blinded by the superstition of materialsm. I hope--for your sake--that you transcend that some day.

If I were a corrupt calleous greedy emperor of a nation, I can think of little better control of my peasantry than to have them convince themselves that materialism is something to be avoided, AND have them think it was their own idea.

Enlightenment = Social Control

What are you trying to say? It sounds good but what does it mean? Please elaborate.

Whatever it is what is going on in your life tends to effect your mind which is certainly not unrestricted while you are inhabiting a body. Unless you got some super skillz or something.

From the posts I have seen from Hex it is clear that he believes he personally (face to face) speaks to God, Satan, and has psionic powers.

Hey Q, what have you chosen as the purpose of your life/your main goal(s)?
What's your opinion on hedonism?

I have no goals in life, I believe all life to be pointless and just go along with my own. I could try to create my own meaning in life, but as of yet, I am unable to bring myself to such a low level.
As for hedonism, all life is naturally selfish so there is no point in trying to say you oppose it, you just end up looking like a hypocrite otherwise.

If I were a corrupt calleous greedy emperor of a nation, I can think of little better control of my peasantry than to have them convince themselves that materialism is something to be avoided, AND have them think it was their own idea.

Enlightenment = Social Control


Are you implying that our leaders are pushing us towards being "enlightened?" Otherwise, there is no point to this post, because your little equation is flawed anyway, since there are numerous factors to consider.

Are you implying that our leaders are pushing us towards being "enlightened?" Otherwise, there is no point to this post, because your little equation is flawed anyway, since there are numerous factors to consider.

Not at all.

I am implying that the creation of the idea of enlightenment, and given it's "transendence" of material things, implies that is was a loosely disguised as a mode of social control.

Either that, OR a nifty side effect of enlightenment is that a truly enlightened peasantry will not care if the king's men burn their village to the ground, kill their livestock, and take their meager possesions.

It would be good to be king of a peasant population like that.

To suggest that there is no point to my post, since it does not apply to current events is rather ignorant.

Not at all.

I am implying that the creation of the idea of enlightenment, and given it's "transendence" of material things, implies that is was a loosely disguised as a mode of social control.

Either that, OR a nifty side effect of enlightenment is that a truly enlightened peasantry will not care if the king's men burn their village to the ground, kill their livestock, and take their meager possesions.

It would be good to be king of a peasant population like that.

To suggest that there is no point to my post, since it does not apply to current events is rather ignorant.

Unless you can back up the assertion that enlightenment equals social control, then your post was an unfounded attempt at pushing an idea that had no base.

Note: I agree with your "side effect" comment, but realize it is only a "nifty" effect, and not and end-goal.

Unless you can back up the assertion that enlightenment equals social control, then your post was an unfounded attempt at pushing an idea that had no base.

Note: I agree with your "side effect" comment, but realize it is only a "nifty" effect, and not and end-goal.

I am not a great believer in coincidence. I can see how all religions have the side effect of social control, and (unlike you) do not blissfully believe this to be an accident. NOW, I cannot prove beyond a doubt, that the creators of these religions had intended social control to be the end-goal, for several reasons.

The creators are either lost in antiquity, or made into near demigod's by religious propaganda, in other words, historical evidence that would prove my claim, would most likely have been eradicated from written memory.

I am just applying a liberal amount of common sense to this problem, and suggest you do the same.

Enlightenment does not have to be religious.

Or close to it? Is it worth pursuing?

Yes & yes :)

Self - Is - Awake/enlightened - Ineffable - Pure Consciousness
(David Hawkins, Power vs Force)

cheers:)

Enlightenment does not have to be religious.

None of the people in this forum seem interested in intellectual enlightenment. Only trying to reassure themselves that their pathetic lives mean something.

None of the people in this forum seem interested in intellectual enlightenment. Only trying to reassure themselves that their pathetic lives mean something.

Exactly what I was going to respond with.

Seems we were talking of spiritual enlightenment. Keep up Obbe. Your failing at trolling for fuck's sake.

Spiritual enlightenment does not have to be religious.

Spiritual enlightenment does not have to be religious.

A religion is a set of beliefs and practices often organized around supernatural and/or moral claims.

A spirit is a supernatural claim.

If you form a set of beliefs or practices organized around the concept of something supernatural (such as a spirit) then you have a religion...you fucking twit.

Think before you speak Obbe.

And a spiritual individuals beliefs are not dictated to them by any authority or elite or organized religion.

They are set by themselves. Social control never enters the picture.

And a spiritual individuals beliefs are not dictated to them by any authority or elite or organized religion.

They are set by themselves. Social control never enters the picture.

You may find this hard to believe.........but a spiritualists beliefs are influenced by the humans who imagined and created the concept of the spirit. If you follow a traditional path of enlightenment, you will be obeying a set of rules created by a man, who created those rules with social control in mind.

If you venture completely out on your own with enlightenment (OBBE) not only do you run the risk of appearing as a delusional troll, you ultimately acheive nothing except the satiation of the ego.

If you venture completely out on your own with enlightenment (OBBE) not only do you run the risk of appearing as a delusional troll, you ultimately acheive nothing except the satiation of the ego.

Unless, of course, enlightenment was something real.

Unless, of course, enlightenment was something real.

To which of course, nobody can prove it is. Least of all you.

To which of course, nobody can prove it is. Least of all you.

But anyone can find out for themselves.

But anyone can find out for themselves.

I have. That feeling of oneness that accompanies enlightenment, is merely the spatial reckoning center of your brain becoming over loaded. It has been tested. I have found out.

I have. That feeling of oneness that accompanies enlightenment, is merely the spatial reckoning center of your brain becoming over loaded. It has been tested. I have found out.

So you believe it has been proven that enlightenment is nothing more?

[QUOTE=BrokeProphet;9726956]You may find this hard to believe.........but a spiritualists beliefs are influenced by the humans who imagined and created the concept of the spirit. If you follow a traditional path of enlightenment, you will be obeying a set of rules created by a man, who created those rules with social control in mind.

QUOTE]

With all due rerspect, this is just absolute fucking nonsense.

First of all, what "man"? Secondly, which "tradition"? There are many.

Thirdly, the whole point of spiritual growth--up to and including enlightenment, however you choose to define it--is all about attaining a state of power, freedom, and grace--"social control" has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

Enlightened people cannot be controlled.

It isn't absolute shit.
It is very true that religion and spirituality has been heavily influenced by men who havn't got spirituality at heart.

There isn't A man as you said there have been many traditions there have been many trying to influence.

You may not be able to control an enlightened person, though I doubt this is the case it is always possible to find some way to control a person. But does it really matter if they are non-violent, don't mind if you take there stuff, and a bunch of other rules that don't exactly put them in a great position?

... who created those rules with social control in mind.

You know this?

Biography:
Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.

You already have freedom. You do not realize it because you believe this.

A religion is a set of beliefs and practices often organized around supernatural and/or moral claims.

A spirit is a supernatural claim.

If you form a set of beliefs or practices organized around the concept of something supernatural (such as a spirit) then you have a religion...you fucking twit.



Actually, you're wrong.

Making beliefs about a supernatural subject doesn't equal creating a religion.

Just because I wear tin-foil hats doesn't make me religious.

Religions involve higher powers, in the form of either a universal force or a deity.

Philosophies don't have to.

Iam Enlightened.

If I were a corrupt calleous greedy emperor of a nation, I can think of little better control of my peasantry than to have them convince themselves that materialism is something to be avoided, AND have them think it was their own idea.

Enlightenment = Social Control

You could is that driving people towards materialism is a far greater way of controlling people. If people place high value on physical belongings a government could control them through fear of loss of those belongings.

If I was a corrupt greedy emperor I'd have the people devoted to money so that I could use it to control them.

Seems to me that material desires are far easier to use to control someone than a lack of material desires.

Also, aren't those people said to be the most enlightened the ones that generally go around telling corrupt authority to go fuck itself?

You also seem to be disregarding what brings about the greater happiness. Does placing a high value on things and stuff make people happier, or does a certain amount of indifference to these things bring about a greater happiness?

Of course, this is all opinion, I'm not sure if either of us really have a knowledge when it comes to this.

You could is that driving people towards materialism is a far greater way of controlling people. If people place high value on physical belongings a government could control them through fear of loss of those belongings.

If I was a corrupt greedy emperor I'd have the people devoted to money so that I could use it to control them.

Seems to me that material desires are far easier to use to control someone than a lack of material desires.

Also, aren't those people said to be the most enlightened the ones that generally go around telling corrupt authority to go fuck itself?

You also seem to be disregarding what brings about the greater happiness. Does placing a high value on things and stuff make people happier, or does a certain amount of indifference to these things bring about a greater happiness?

Of course, this is all opinion, I'm not sure if either of us really have a knowledge when it comes to this.

I see your point, and had not considered the kind of control that comes from having people addicted to consumption.

I dont think this consumer control existed back at the creation of this religion however.

The amount of happiness a person can receive from material things is based entirely upon the NEED (not desire) level of the person. I believe money can buy happiness IF you are poor enough.

I see your point, and had not considered the kind of control that comes from having people addicted to consumption.

I dont think this consumer control existed back at the creation of this religion however.

The amount of happiness a person can receive from material things is based entirely upon the NEED (not desire) level of the person. I believe money can buy happiness IF you are poor enough.

Guess we just have to become poor then :D

Also, what are we all discussing when we talk about enlightenment. We don't really have a definition of what we mean, so that we can actually have a common ground to argue from.

So, what does everyone think of when they think of enlightenment?

Guess we just have to become poor then

To escape materialistic chains? It would help, of course, but it would be most important to not care about material things yourself. A poor person could very much still desire to be rich ... overcoming those desires would require the intention to.

So, what does everyone think of when they think of enlightenment?

I believe it can mean a number of things, even to just one person. I don't think its one 'thing' that happens, and after that you're now 'officially enlightened' or anything like that. I believe its a path, a long one, and changes would happen along the way.

I believe it means being free. I think that to some degree it means understanding things you you did not once before. I believe it can refer to the expereince of oneness or oneness of all, which you can accomplish through meditation. I believe it can refer to improving of ones ability, through practice, to reach that place. I believe that if we are in a cycle of reincarnation of beings with similar or less awareness of reality then we currently have, that enlightenment could refer to eventually raising out of this cycle and into one of higher awareness.

But I do not think a life seeking enlightenment is any more worthwhile then any life.

The amount of happiness a person can receive from material things is based entirely upon the NEED (not desire) level of the person. I believe money can buy happiness IF you are poor enough.

That is exactly what the government, Wall Street, and the ad business wants you to think. If you require ANYTHING outside of yourself to be happy, you are addicted to it. Addiction is not a happy place to be .

Happiness, like anything else, is a choice.

Thirty years ago, I was rich--I lived in a posh townhouse, owned a late model sports car and an SUV, had a closet full of designer clothes, yadda yadda yadda. I was not only miserable, but also emotionally and spirtually bankrupt. Today, my income is way below rthe official poverty level--and I have never been happier, more fulfilled.

Thirty years ago, I was rich--I lived in a posh townhouse, owned a late model sports car and an SUV, had a closet full of designer clothes, yadda yadda yadda. I was not only miserable, but also emotionally and spirtually bankrupt. Today, my income is way below rthe official poverty level--and I have never been happier, more fulfilled.

Are you starving?

Do you have a baby that is coughing up blood in your arms, in desperate need of medical attention you cannot afford?

Is your wife afflicted with an easily treatable disease, that is slowly killing her, that you are unable to afford?


These things will make a normal person unhappy, correct? All of these problems can be solved with just a little money.

Your case is a little unfair. You are pursuing enlightenment and have made a choice to give up all of those things (and never miss a prideful opportunity to tell us about it, how enlightened are you?). Someone who has never known luxury or security and has always bedded down with hardship, may disagree with the assessment that money does not buy happiness, and rightfully so.

Are you starving?

Do you have a baby that is coughing up blood in your arms, in desperate need of medical attention you cannot afford?

Is your wife afflicted with an easily treatable disease, that is slowly killing her, that you are unable to afford?


These things will make a normal person unhappy, correct? All of these problems can be solved with just a little money.

Your case is a little unfair. You are pursuing enlightenment and have made a choice to give up all of those things (and never miss a prideful opportunity to tell us about it, how enlightened are you?). Someone who has never known luxury or security and has always bedded down with hardship, may disagree with the assessment that money does not buy happiness, and rightfully so.

The above post is so rife with misconceptions and erroneous assumptions, I scarcely know where to begin.

For one thing--since you mention is--my wife IS dying. I earned exactly $36 in the last two weeks, and am trying to deal with $10,000 or so in medical bills she incurred in December. The hospital's business office has been hassling us so much that she recently said that she wishes she had just died instead of going in hospital. Since the doctor told her mother when she was born that she probably wouldn't last a year, we are both very happy and grateful that she lived as long as she has.

But if you think that money can buy happiness, you are grossly mistaken. A recent survey of Fortune 500 executives showed that in general, they are LESS happy than many people living in Third World countries.

"Normal person"? What is that, pray tell? In America today, it is statistically and socially "normal" to be obese (like 63 percent of the population), semi-literate (the average American reads fewer than ONE book a year), and fearful. It may be normal, but it is hardly natural.

"Prideful"? I think you are hallucinating. As I understand the word, "pride" implies a sense of superiority, and I have repeatedly stated that we are All One, that no one is better or worse than anyone else.

Taking every opportunity to point out how you live below poverty level, in a small cabin with no running water as opposed to the life you used to live, fraught with finances and SUV's and the such - you are just stating that it is a better path for you, it makes you happier to live frugally versus steeped in wealth or financial stability. You're proud of your decision, because it's what puts you on the path you want to be on. Why does pride have to be such an ugly word? Pride doesn't have to necessarily mean superiority, just that you are pleased with your accomplishments.

While excessive wealth and material gain may not buy happiness, I have to argue that at times, it certainly can attribute to it. I would imagine that happiness for you is translated into having your loving wife in your life, healthy and happy and not fraught over medical expenses, not wishing she had died versus being harassed by the hospital's collection efforts. If money could solve the problem of medical expenses, get her better than sub-par health care, buy her drugs that would make her more comfortable while she copes with her illness ... then financial support (via money) would attribute to happiness, on some level.

You must feel the same way, on at least some level, otherwise you wouldn't be asking for monetary donations on your Xanga blog to help out with the expenses.

If a villager has had his hut pillaged, his daughters sold into slavery and his family starved because food was stolen - money would certainly attribute to his happiness, as it would provide shelter for his family, food to feed everyone, and he wouldn't have to sell his daughter to do so. If this villager were to obtain these things, and continue to strive for more and more that he wanted versus what he needed - then his happiness is likely to wane in the face of desire, where he'll be afflicted into believing that happiness = having more stuff, versus the basic necessities.

It is in that sense that I argue that at times, money CAN buy happiness. None of us want to see our loved ones suffer as a result of not having the basics in life: Food, shelter, healthcare, etc...

P.S. - please tell Susu I enjoy reading the posts on her Xanga about the stories of her ancestors and the *memoir* segments. Love her style of writing - it really grabs you by the ears and are interesting tales! :)

The above post is so rife with misconceptions and erroneous assumptions, I scarcely know where to begin.

For one thing--since you mention is--my wife IS dying. I earned exactly $36 in the last two weeks, and am trying to deal with $10,000 or so in medical bills she incurred in December. The hospital's business office has been hassling us so much that she recently said that she wishes she had just died instead of going in hospital. Since the doctor told her mother when she was born that she probably wouldn't last a year, we are both very happy and grateful that she lived as long as she has.

But if you think that money can buy happiness, you are grossly mistaken. A recent survey of Fortune 500 executives showed that in general, they are LESS happy than many people living in Third World countries.

"Normal person"? What is that, pray tell? In America today, it is statistically and socially "normal" to be obese (like 63 percent of the population), semi-literate (the average American reads fewer than ONE book a year), and fearful. It may be normal, but it is hardly natural.

"Prideful"? I think you are hallucinating. As I understand the word, "pride" implies a sense of superiority, and I have repeatedly stated that we are All One, that no one is better or worse than anyone else.

You're missing the point entirely. Do you think having money to cure a sick loved one is the same as being a bored, super-wealthy executive? Did you really interpret his usage of "normal" to refer to obese Americans that don't read much (by the way: not reading many novels in no way makes someone semi-literate)? He was talking about a "normal" human response to starvation or having a sick loved one.

Your reply really makes me wonder if you are just trolling or actually going insane.

Arms is right, there's no reason to suffer. It's a crazy idea to most people, but it's true, you don't have to let anything cause you unhappiness and you don't need anything to be happy. I think it's insane live any other way. Money doesn't have to buy happiness at ANY times. Really, if you were dying would you want your husband to feel sad for you or would you want him to remain radiantly happy? Suffering usually isn't going to accomplish anything positive.

... you don't have to let anything cause you unhappiness and you don't need anything to be happy ... Money doesn't have to buy happiness at ANY times..

That seems to be the point the above posters are missing.

Guess we just have to become poor then :D

Also, what are we all discussing when we talk about enlightenment. We don't really have a definition of what we mean, so that we can actually have a common ground to argue from.

So, what does everyone think of when they think of enlightenment?

I've read where Buddha was asked what made him different to other men, he is said to have replied: "I am awake", modern teachers like Krishnamurti and David Hawkins talk of awareness, or the 'presence', that human faculty that still operates when thought is stilled. Therefore, IMHO to be enlightened is to be 'awake', fully aware in the present moment, however it's like being awake vs being asleep - it's an ongoing experience as well as an event.

cheers:)

Greetings,

Not that anyone here cares, but since the subject of this discussion asks the question: "Is anyonehere enlightened"...

It's no big deal to me personally, but I am an enlightened one...

Being enlightened has nothing to do with standing around staring at the clouds as one poster suggested...

Being enlightened doesn't interfere with functioning in the real world of daily living...

Ancient One

I felt enlightened yesterday, for a short period of time. I too believe that many people experience this every now and then, but very few have made it last.

It is a truly awesome feeling. I'd made plans to commit suicide soon, even started writing notes and had everything planned out. Then the feeling hit me, as I said, yesterday. I don't think it can be explained, but I do know that it was real, and I had developed so much happiness that I felt I could easily live through this life, work out my problems and face the truth.

So now.. I'll probably live to see many more years.

<3

I felt enlightened yesterday, for a short period of time. I too believe that many people experience this every now and then, but very few have made it last.

It is a truly awesome feeling. I'd made plans to commit suicide soon, even started writing notes and had everything planned out. Then the feeling hit me, as I said, yesterday. I don't think it can be explained, but I do know that it was real, and I had developed so much happiness that I felt I could easily live through this life, work out my problems and face the truth.

So now.. I'll probably live to see many more years.

<3


Hi HandOfZek,

Yes... The experience is so fantastic, that it's hard to put it into words, isn't it ??

It does take a lot of determination and perserverence and much more, to achieve lasting enlightenment...

Glad to hear that you decided not to commit suicide, as I truly believe that suicide doesn't end ones problems or difficulties, over which one was contemplating suicide in the 1st place...

My belief is that whatever life situation that a person commits suicide over, thinking that they can escape from whatever drove them to suicide, that after death, that person will find that they escaped from life, but they couldn't escape from facing the karmic consequences of committing suicide...

And the karmic consequences of committing suicide are just as bad or worse than what that person committed suicide over...

So once again HandOfZek, I commend you for your decision not to commit suicide and to face live out your life instead...

I wish you success in working through whatever problems caused you to previously plan suicide...

Best Wishes,
Ancient One

Hi HandOfZek,

Yes... The experience is so fantastic, that it's hard to put it into words, isn't it ??

It does take a lot of determination and perserverence and much more, to achieve lasting enlightenment...

Glad to hear that you decided not to commit suicide, as I truly believe that suicide doesn't end ones problems or difficulties, over which one was contemplating suicide in the 1st place...

My belief is that whatever life situation that a person commits suicide over, thinking that they can escape from whatever drove them to suicide, that after death, that person will find that they escaped from life, but they couldn't escape from facing the karmic consequences of committing suicide...

And the karmic consequences of committing suicide are just as bad or worse than what that person committed suicide over...

So once again HandOfZek, I commend you for your decision not to commit suicide and to face live out your life instead...

I wish you success in working through whatever problems caused you to previously plan suicide...

Best Wishes,
Ancient One

Thanks, yo.

<3

And I'm serious, despite my language.

Thanks, yo.

<3

And I'm serious, despite my language.


Hi HandOfZek,

you are welcome and I definately did percieve that you were very serious..

Since you have had a taste of feeling enlightenment, or what I would call experiencing higher consciousness, it's much easier to experience it again...

I don't know what your background of knowledge and understanding is, but if you would like some pointers on experiencing higher states of consciousness, let me know... As I have a number of years of experience in meditation and experiencing higher states of consciousness...


Regards,
Ancient One

I've been enlightened, literally, everything turns to light and you go to levels of existence you never thought possible.

But to stay or get to that level is an untold struggle. I don't think even the Buddha himself was ALWAYS totally enlightened. But once you have been, it sticks with you...

I've been enlightened, literally, everything turns to light and you go to levels of existence you never thought possible.

But to stay or get to that level is an untold struggle. I don't think even the Buddha himself was ALWAYS totally enlightened. But once you have been, it sticks with you...

In sme aspects, the idea of being enlightened, is a potentiality until realized as actuality, so in a sense you have been enlightened all along. <--- This statement should not be thought of in a superficial, literal sense. Being that every potential needs work to become actual:

For example: You have the potential to jab your toe into something when you wake up in the morning, you need to put the potential into action, but no one intends to jab there toe into something, they do it when they least expect it or on accident and when you jab your toe you "know and feel it." Same way with enlightenment...

Yeah, I guess.

Enlightened...hmm, I just got it.

It's nothing detrimental.

Taking a quick glance back, I only got here by practicing it.

It's like a weird mix between complete apathy and complete empathy. You feel everything going on, but you just intuitively know that all will be well despite the tremendous pains many experience. You can hear the cries, but they will be comforted by those that are called to comfort. It's the conjugation of heaven and hell into a perfectly symbiotic perception.

Enlightened...hmm, I just got it.

It's nothing detrimental.

Taking a quick glance back, I only got here by practicing it.

It's like a weird mix between complete apathy and complete empathy. You feel everything going on, but you just intuitively know that all will be well despite the tremendous pains many experience. You can hear the cries, but they will be comforted by those that are called to comfort. It's the conjugation of heaven and hell into a perfectly symbiotic perception.

I've had states not far from that. It's like....no matter what happens, everything is fine.

Enlightened...hmm, I just got it.

It's nothing detrimental.

Taking a quick glance back, I only got here by practicing it.

It's like a weird mix between complete apathy and complete empathy. You feel everything going on, but you just intuitively know that all will be well despite the tremendous pains many experience. You can hear the cries, but they will be comforted by those that are called to comfort. It's the conjugation of heaven and hell into a perfectly symbiotic perception.

Mhm, compassion accompanied with equanimity. However, I doubt that someone enlightened would ever be apathetic to the pleas of others; egoism being uprooted and all.

Mhm, compassion accompanied with equanimity. However, I doubt that someone enlightened would ever be apathetic to the pleas of others; egoism being uprooted and all.

'twas the best description I could find at the moment.

Let me explain it like this: Inaction breeds perfect action. You know that people are in pain, but you can only help when you're in the position to help, and until you are, there is no point in wasting your time putting massive effort in when you haven't the resources to make a difference.

Build your self until you have something to give, then freely give it as your heart is called to empathy. Complete apathy is necessary to building enough of a structure to utilize complete empathy.