The only stance any sane person can make on the existence of a divine being(s), is that nobody knows. To claim you know, is impossible. You can only tell people of what you've been told or thought of, but not actually know for sure.

To be an atheist, you must blind yourself to the possibility that a divine being has left no tracks to follow. No trace means you can also not claim you do know their is a god.

I know there is going to be some religious whiners saying ,"I believe despite no proof," you are simply insane.

I leave you with this thought. Isn't it possible that even if there is a god, maybe the only thing we were supposed to know to make this earth heaven is to humbly admit our pathetic human limitations. We are all weak, and stuck in the same place, and our only end direction is to accept ourselves for our sinful nature, and work towards creating a world to the best of our abilities.

Shit, even I myself, with an intelligence level three deviation points higher than average, basically one of the most efficient brains in the world, I cannot answer every question, and I'm no better off than anyone else on this planet. We'll only get along when we stop fighting over theories and unite under our ability to never know such things.

I leave you with this thought. Isn't it possible that even if there is a god, maybe the only thing we were supposed to know to make this earth heaven is to humbly admit our pathetic human limitations. We are all weak, and stuck in the same place, and our only end direction is to accept ourselves for our sinful nature, and work towards creating a world to the best of our abilities.



Thinking of ourselves as pathetic and weak will solve nothing. We have free will--we create our own reality even as we experience it. If you choose to see yourself as weak and pathtic, so be it--but why? How does it serve you to thus label yourself?

We are created in the image and likeness of God, and Jesus himself once said that anything he could do, we can do better.

If you want to change the world, change yourself. If everyone would realize that we are All One, and would think, speak, and act according, the world would be healed overnight. There would be no more hunger, poverty, war, or any other indignity which we as a species have created.

Nope, nobody knows anything really. But sanity and insanity are just different perspectives. Many people would assume right off the bat that you might just be insane for claiming that you can't know. And maybe you are ... can you know? :D

To be an atheist, you must blind yourself to the possibility that a divine being has left no tracks to follow.

No, to be an atheist, you must simply see no reason to have a belief in God. An atheist lacks belief, because they see no reason for it.

I know there is going to be some religious whiners saying ,"I believe despite no proof," you are simply insane.

I don't know about those religious whiners, but I believe in God because I do see reason to. It does make sense to me.

... work towards creating a world to the best of our abilities.

Of course but ... who decides what kind of world to create?

Thinking of ourselves as pathetic and weak will solve nothing.

QFT

You seem to have a lot of Pride in yourselves.

I'm probably not weaker than either of you mentally or physically. However, accepting our weaknesses and limitations of knowledge is a strength, as you know what you truly have to work with, not this full of yourself attitude that has turned the earth into the cesspool it is.

Quite honestly, there is no way you could ever explain why you believe without showing how truly weak you are. Do you live without any sin? Of course not, because we are weak by nature. This is why you have the belief that Jesus died for our sins, because he recognized that we are too weak to not sin.

Do you live without any sin? Of course not, because we are weak by nature. This is why you have the belief that Jesus died for our sins, because he recognized that we are too weak to not sin.

What sins do you speak of? What do you mean by 'sin'?

And sorry, I do not believe in Christian mythology.

The things you do that God is against in <religion>.

Atheism is actively believing in the non-existence of God, it is a lot stronger than simply seeing no reason believe which is more like agnosticism if you ask me.

Im agnostic. I don't know nothin.

It's not really agnostic or atheist, because it's the belief that it isn't possible to know the answer to such a question. It's not saying there isn't a god, but it is a belief that it will never be proven so agnosticism doesn't really fit either.

Obbe, you said you believe in God, what would lead you to such a conclusion?

My point seems to be lost on everyone.

My reason is that all I know is that I AM, and thus can assume that anything that COULD BE would need the same 'being' to ... be. To exist. That goes for all.

And thats God. The oneness of all.

To be an atheist, you must blind yourself to the possibility that a divine being has left no tracks to follow. No trace means you can also not claim you do know their is a god.

Wrong. I can be an atheist without claiming that I know there is no god; it's called weak atheism.

Just like I don't believe in unicorns but I'm completely open to the possibility of them existing, I can also not believe in a god without claiming anything about their existence or non-existence. I am completely open to the idea of a god existing, I just don't believe in any because I have yet to be given a good reason too.

It's not really agnostic or atheist, because it's the belief that it isn't possible to know the answer to such a question. It's not saying there isn't a god, but it is a belief that it will never be proven so agnosticism doesn't really fit either.

Actually that's the definition of agnosticism...

If you want to be even more specific, you're a strong agnostic.

Knowing you don't know is the only thing one can honestly know. Having experience isn't knowledge; it is just more of that which you don't know. But I know what I don't know on an intimate level. No reason to fear it, hate it, or let it harm. The human condition is ignorant mortality: all suffering comes from trying to escape these.

The only stance any sane person can make on the existence of a divine being(s), is that nobody knows. To claim you know, is impossible. You can only tell people of what you've been told or thought of, but not actually know for sure.

To be an atheist, you must blind yourself to the possibility that a divine being has left no tracks to follow. No trace means you can also not claim you do know their is a god.

I know there is going to be some religious whiners saying ,"I believe despite no proof," you are simply insane.

I leave you with this thought. Isn't it possible that even if there is a god, maybe the only thing we were supposed to know to make this earth heaven is to humbly admit our pathetic human limitations. We are all weak, and stuck in the same place, and our only end direction is to accept ourselves for our sinful nature, and work towards creating a world to the best of our abilities.

Shit, even I myself, with an intelligence level three deviation points higher than average, basically one of the most efficient brains in the world, I cannot answer every question, and I'm no better off than anyone else on this planet. We'll only get along when we stop fighting over theories and unite under our ability to never know such things.

Claiming to know is... ah never mind, it will only end up in a flame war... Well wait actually there was a theological talk about knowing God. Eastern Orthodox priest said its possible to know god's energies [manifestations] but not his substance [essence] or what makes God, GOD.

Actually, in the grander society and groupings of things, atheism just like theism are both funny, one seeks to disprove the unknowable and the other seeks to prove the unknowable. I believe our personal findings are for ourselves and not for all of us to argue and fight over. One subjective is only going to fight against another subjective view so there will be no progress, no definitive answer.

Life is absurd, sanity and insanity are but brothers. Life is not Life; Death is not Death; Sanity is not Sanity.

We should accept our human limitations but seek to transcend them as well. To use a metaphor: "A person with a bad hip still seeks to overcome his disability." We need to make the best use of what we have but know there is more out there than our limitations. Plus, if we humbled ourselves to that level I think we would see the need to work together and make peace instead of have a whole lot of empty vanity.

For those who lead spiritual lives; there lives should only be there lives and not force their views nor values upon others who do not follow the same path. For those who do not follow spiritual lives there is a Chinese proverb to that: "If you do not believe in God, then leave him alone." Replace "God" with "metaphysical" and "Him" with "It"

To quote a spiritual source: "For every person is persuaded by means of what he already believes. If he does not believe nothing will persuade him." Now if I could add or comment on that I would say that its trying to say: "People will believe what they want to believe, and accept what they think to be true. People will not change there beliefs unless they want to."

So on that note, let the spread of religion not be evangelized; let the spread of atheism not be debated, rather to each his own path and yet we are together and let us respect one another's paths through life as if it were our own path.

Thank you for re-enforcing my point godfather89, although I don't think you did it deliberately.

"So on that note, let the spread of religion not be evangelized; let the spread of atheism not be debated, rather to each his own path and yet we are together and let us respect one another's paths through life as if it were our own path." To do just this, one would have to accept that they truly don't know they are right in their beliefs, as it's the only way we can see everyones beliefs on one playing field. If you believe you are right and everyone else is wrong, then you feel self-righteous in subjecting others to your beliefs, which breeds endless conflict.

I feel that this message was lost in Christianity and many other religions. I've always felt that forgiveness was impossible unless we accept our own fallibility. When people decide to choose a system of beliefs, they must first realize the possible fallibility in their choice.

Obbe"My reason is that all I know is that I AM, and thus can assume that anything that COULD BE would need the same 'being' to ... be. To exist. That goes for all.

And thats God. The oneness of all."
So you think god can exist because you do, but you don't know though. Even your own existence is dependent on others recognition of your existence.

here comes again the age old question:

IS THERE GOD?

yes there is and the only way to to know him is through the vedas (hinduism)

other than this, i am pretty sure and confident its impossible to know god as an human being.

Thank you for re-enforcing my point godfather89, although I don't think you did it deliberately.

"So on that note, let the spread of religion not be evangelized; let the spread of atheism not be debated, rather to each his own path and yet we are together and let us respect one another's paths through life as if it were our own path." To do just this, one would have to accept that they truly don't know they are right in their beliefs, as it's the only way we can see everyones beliefs on one playing field. If you believe you are right and everyone else is wrong, then you feel self-righteous in subjecting others to your beliefs, which breeds endless conflict.

I feel that this message was lost in Christianity and many other religions. I've always felt that forgiveness was impossible unless we accept our own fallibility. When people decide to choose a system of beliefs, they must first realize the possible fallibility in their choice.

Obbe"My reason is that all I know is that I AM, and thus can assume that anything that COULD BE would need the same 'being' to ... be. To exist. That goes for all.

And thats God. The oneness of all."
So you think god can exist because you do, but you don't know though. Even your own existence is dependent on others recognition of your existence.


Nope, I just put that out there to back you up... :)

Right, to assume you are wrong is more humbling (besides humility is something to carry with you in a spiritual tradition anyway) than to assume you are right, which IMO only inflates your ego even higher.

Ultimately we need one another and we have to accept each others individual choices, I know that it seems like we have to evangelize, but who ever said there was sanity in numbers? I mean c'mon if you believe in something do you need others to confirm it? In the end you are who you are and thats it...

here comes again the age old question:

IS THERE GOD?

yes there is and the only way to to know him is through the vedas (hinduism)

other than this, i am pretty sure and confident its impossible to know god as an human being.


Whether there is or not, to each is own path... If we are to argue this it will not be an argument of premises and conclusions but of frustration and anger. "The realm of the resurrection is not to the realm of argument but faith." As Valentinus wrote in Treatise on the Resurrection, just replace "resurrection" with "religion and spirituality."

Whatever the case, the path will dictate where god is in your life. There will be times where you feel or think God is not there, there will be times where you will feel or think God is there.

But um, the fact that we tend to go to God only when in trouble is hypocritical, the fact that people have this tunnel vision view of God based on dogma and not understanding and experience does not help either. Whatever the case will be, it will be for you.

It goes back to the concept of how the universe is experiencing itself subjectively.

I pity you fools. You'll never know the beauty of a unicorn's horn shimmering in the moonlight, or his soft fur underneath you as you speed over the pink magical valleys. And yet you still buy plastic products. DON'T YOU REALIZE, UNICORNS IS LOVE

To be an atheist, you must blind yourself to the possibility that a divine being has left no tracks to follow. No trace means you can also not claim you do know their is a god.

What if I were to tell you that there's a gaint invisible elephant-tiger with 543089543 trunks and 9874893784 tails floating around in the sky. And whenever sombody died it was the elephant-tiger striking them down with one of its tails. Then it sucks up your soul with one of it's trunks, and shoots you into another invisable place called heaven? But this insane creature has left no tracks and can't possibly be traced or seen by humans in any way. Would you blind yourself to the possibility that this divine elephant-tiger is realy floating around up there? Of course you would, because it's just rediculous. But if the human race beleived this elephant-tiger was up there since pretty much the dawn of their existance, and wrote a bunch of scripture about it, I bet TONS of people would still beleive it's there.

To be an atheist, you must blind yourself to the possibility that a divine being has left no tracks to follow. No trace means you can also not claim you do know their is a god.

You mean antitheist.

Professor Poopypants- Think about this. The entire universe is composed of a single substance, which everything is materialized from, simple energy. Technically our own existence is merely life simulated by energy. That elephant-tiger god you make fun of existed within your head to write it down, and is now part of the energy matrix, and now exists. I would say it's power is limited to the matrix confined within your head and in your words, but it does however now exist. Dreams and thoughts are as real as our own existence, however they are not recognized by others as the reality as they exist solely within your mind.

Actually, it's this singular energy matrix that is the basic definition of God, not as a being, but the overall energy matrix. God in religions is simply a metaphorical labeling to help people understand such a functioning system since most people don't possess the higher brain function needed to understand it.

The most complex thing for the human mind to ever understand is 1=0. Essentially, everything in the universe can be reduced to the function of 1= Universe. However, if you combined all the anti-matter and matter together, the sum would be 0. So the universe has to equal 1 and 0 at the same time. Existence within non-existence, that is God.

Religious Gods are just cock and bull to cater to the idiots.

The only stance any sane person can make on the existence of a divine being(s), is that nobody knows. To claim you know, is impossible. You can only tell people of what you've been told or thought of, but not actually know for sure.

To be an atheist, you must blind yourself to the possibility that a divine being has left no tracks to follow. No trace means you can also not claim you do know their is a god.

I know there is going to be some religious whiners saying ,"I believe despite no proof," you are simply insane.

I leave you with this thought. Isn't it possible that even if there is a god, maybe the only thing we were supposed to know to make this earth heaven is to humbly admit our pathetic human limitations. We are all weak, and stuck in the same place, and our only end direction is to accept ourselves for our sinful nature, and work towards creating a world to the best of our abilities.

Shit, even I myself, with an intelligence level three deviation points higher than average, basically one of the most efficient brains in the world, I cannot answer every question, and I'm no better off than anyone else on this planet. We'll only get along when we stop fighting over theories and unite under our ability to never know such things.

agnosticism man.

If you want to take that epistemological defecation route lets take it a step further.

The only stance any sane person can make on the existence of gravity, is that nobody knows. Therefore it's completely sane to jump off a building to test your healthy skepticism of a commonly observed occurrence because it can never be proved absolute. The man who sticks to his belief and fails to jump is obviously insane and should be pushed off.

Or, for an example more akin to yours, lets speak of this giant invisible elephant-tiger. Now, in our everyday life we see no evidence of this beast, no proof that it exists. I would agree and say that those who believe in it are insane. Those who sit on the fence are rational and logical. Then we have those who have the balls to say there no fucking way that exists, quit being asshats. These are the people responsible for progress in this world.

In an individuals reality nothing can be certain. All one can do is develop a best guess at reality from a limited ability to observe. The belief in a god goes against our only method of gaining knowledge and therefore encourages stupidity.

Theist - Idiot
Agnostic - Rational-pussy (a ratsy)
Atheist - Enlightened Man

On a side note, insanity doesn't come in to this whole argument though. Insanity has nothing to do with what you believe in, only if its commonly accepted by others.

Religious Gods are just cock and bull to cater to the idiots.

And theories like yours are just cock and bull to cater to the pseudo-intellectuals (see: idiots).

If you want to take that epistemological defecation route lets take it a step further.

The only stance any sane person can make on the existence of gravity, is that nobody knows. Therefore it's completely sane to jump off a building to test your healthy skepticism of a commonly observed occurrence because it can never be proved absolute. The man who sticks to his belief and fails to jump is obviously insane and should be pushed off.

Or, for an example more akin to yours, lets speak of this giant invisible elephant-tiger. Now, in our everyday life we see no evidence of this beast, no proof that it exists. I would agree and say that those who believe in it are insane. Those who sit on the fence are rational and logical. Then we have those who have the balls to say there no fucking way that exists, quit being asshats. These are the people responsible for progress in this world.

In an individuals reality nothing can be certain. All one can do is develop a best guess at reality from a limited ability to observe. The belief in a god goes against our only method of gaining knowledge and therefore encourages stupidity.

Theist - Idiot
Agnostic - Rational-pussy (a ratsy)
Atheist - Enlightened Man

On a side note, insanity doesn't come in to this whole argument though. Insanity has nothing to do with what you believe in, only if its commonly accepted by others.

Why jump off a building? If gravity exists why not jump in the air, jump off the 3rd step from the ground... You don't need to kill or hurt yourself try to (dis)prove anything. To think of a higher deity is more open-minded than to brush off the idea of a deity.

I don't know (officially) but from my observance in the world logic can only grasp so much considering that logic is a systematic and methodical process to apprehend things; however, if life has shown us anything it is that it is filled with surprises and some more absurd than others, thus this is going for proof that the universe has a degree of uncertain randomness to it as well as systems within the universe.

From this I still conclude and feel that agnosticism is still the way we should confront any beliefs of the world at all and I also wish to include that logic can only take us so far before one must realize that using logic to apprehend all things in the universe is illogical.

Alright, so you jump off of the 3rd step from the ground and you fall. From your observations you can then logically deduce that gravity exists, and to assume otherwise is ridiculous, correct? To believe in something not supported by facts is therefore not open-minded, it's ludicrous and ignorant. Logic is the only reasonable way to interpret the absurdism of life. It's not proof but it's the only thing we've got.

The agnostics view is a childish view to hold. What any 12 year old philosopher can realize is that he/she knows nothing. Then it's time for that child to grow up. Reality is a matter of faith and you make decisions in life based on what you have faith in. I believe that I need to eat in order to survive. Even this I cannot prove; if I don't eat and thereafter die it still could be argued that death occurred from another cause. Yet still, you would agree I hope, it's stupid to hold the belief that food is not a necessity for humans.

Yes, we know nothing. Great! I'm glad you've seen the light! But to stubbornly refuse to make the observations and conclusions required to build your own reality is not being fair and open-minded. It is merely a sign of your insecurity and lack of proper judgment. An open-mind is great but an empty one is useless.

logic can only take us so far before one must realize that using logic to apprehend all things in the universe is illogical.

Before spurting philosophy out from your derriere get some facts to support your silly arguments. What else are you going to use to apprehend the universe? Fill in the blanks with your imagination? Or as the agnostic will you just give up and admit intellectual defeat?

I would agree and say that those who believe in it are insane. Those who sit on the fence are rational and logical. Then we have those who have the balls to say there no fucking way that exists, quit being asshats. These are the people responsible for progress in this world.

Theist - Idiot
Agnostic - Rational-pussy (a ratsy)
Atheist - Enlightened Man

Flat fucking awesome assessment of the situation.

The bolded statement I found particular striking.

Again, awesome.

It's not really agnostic or atheist, because it's the belief that it isn't possible to know the answer to such a question. It's not saying there isn't a god, but it is a belief that it will never be proven so agnosticism doesn't really fit either.


You're a bit of an idiot; you know that?

Alright, so you jump off of the 3rd step from the ground and you fall. From your observations you can then logically deduce that gravity exists, and to assume otherwise is ridiculous, correct? To believe in something not supported by facts is therefore not open-minded, it's ludicrous and ignorant. Logic is the only reasonable way to interpret the absurdism of life. It's not proof but it's the only thing we've got.

The agnostics view is a childish view to hold. What any 12 year old philosopher can realize is that he/she knows nothing. Then it's time for that child to grow up. Reality is a matter of faith and you make decisions in life based on what you have faith in. I believe that I need to eat in order to survive. Even this I cannot prove; if I don't eat and thereafter die it still could be argued that death occurred from another cause. Yet still, you would agree I hope, it's stupid to hold the belief that food is not a necessity for humans.

Yes, we know nothing. Great! I'm glad you've seen the light! But to stubbornly refuse to make the observations and conclusions required to build your own reality is not being fair and open-minded. It is merely a sign of your insecurity and lack of proper judgment. An open-mind is great but an empty one is useless.



Before spurting philosophy out from your derriere get some facts to support your silly arguments. What else are you going to use to apprehend the universe? Fill in the blanks with your imagination? Or as the agnostic will you just give up and admit intellectual defeat?

You said it yourself, I made it bold. If we know nothing than any means we have to try and grasp the all of everything is only going to take us so far. In short atheism does not exist, rather it is simply a very strong agnosticism, so even so you cannot deny the fact that anyones own beliefs or mental constructs of the world are potentially if not close to completely fake.

Agnosticism in my eyes says "Stop, we cant be sure about anything, so nothing is official." To me taking the agnostic stance between people is wiser than trying disprove the unprovable. To each is own beliefs of the world which is founded upon experiences in life.

I'm not bashing science but, when science says one thing they may discover something else that influences what they say, then changes need to be made, everything is in a state of constant flux.

In Logic as I am sure you are aware:
Knowledge= True Beliefs + Justification

- True beliefs are not mere beliefs but accurate beliefs (E.g. I believe the world is round.)

- Justifications would be based upon evidence or experience (E.g. So I sailed out to the horizon of the Ocean until I came back to my country a week from now[Experience] or E.g. I watch a film of astronauts up in space taking pictures of the earth and there was no "end of the earth."[Evidence])

Therefore, the true belief was justified by my experience or evidence and this becomes Knowledge and thats why we say in a sentence: We KNOW the earth is not flat but round.

Perhaps it would be a philosophical stance I am taking but the evidence that we think [thoughts are subjective] points to "A" can point to "B" and our experiences being they are subjective as well might place, thus many things (NOT ALL but MANY Things) in our life are subjective and therefore because, they are can be doubted, but not said to either existence or not exist. Thus Agnosticism is the better stance to take on with religious and perhaps even some secular beliefs.

But like I said to each is own, let him build is own model of the world, if he finds people of like minded mind-models than let them be friends, if one finds people of different or opposing mind-models let them have respect for each others mental models of the world and let not one try to change one's own mental models of the world because, there is a level of unsureness even in their own mental models.

The only thing we can agree on is the things that effect us all: We NEED food, clothing and shelter, we need the air we breathe and the water we drink, from this let us help one another meet those needs and leave our views and wants to ourselves, so as long as they do not infringe on receiving those needs.

You should really re-read your posts and edit for coherency. It would help your arguments.

you cannot deny the fact that anyones own beliefs or mental constructs of the world are potentially if not close to completely fake
Condensed statement: life is always subjective

thus many things (NOT ALL but MANY Things) in our life are subjective
Condensed statement: life is not always subjective

I'm not bashing science but, when science says one thing they may discover something else that influences what they say, then changes need to be made, everything is in a state of constant flux.
You're not bashing science. Science is dynamic and holds the ultimate goal of comprehending nature in the best way possible. The rigidity of religion in the face of logical proofs (think Copernicus and Galileo) clearly shows science's superiority.

In Logic as I am sure you are aware:
Knowledge= True Beliefs + Justification

- True beliefs are not mere beliefs but accurate beliefs (E.g. I believe the world is round.)

- Justifications would be based upon evidence or experience (E.g. So I sailed out to the horizon of the Ocean until I came back to my country a week from now[Experience] or E.g. I watch a film of astronauts up in space taking pictures of the earth and there was no "end of the earth."[Evidence])

Therefore, the true belief was justified by my experience or evidence and this becomes Knowledge and thats why we say in a sentence: We KNOW the earth is not flat but round.

True belief: There is no god.
Justification: Experience - I live daily and never run into God.
Evidence - I watch a film of poverty, genocide, holy wars, and corruption and find no evidence of God.

Therefore I KNOW that god does not exist, correct?


Perhaps it would be a philosophical stance I am taking but the evidence that we think [thoughts are subjective] points to "A" can point to "B" and our experiences being they are subjective as well might place, thus many things (NOT ALL but MANY Things) in our life are subjective and therefore because, they are can be doubted, but not said to either existence or not exist. Thus Agnosticism is the better stance to take on with religious and perhaps even some secular beliefs.
...10 points to the first user who can comprehend that mess.

You keep hopping around from point to point and fail to address what I want you to address. I was born into this world with no knowledge. I gain knowledge through experience. I refuse to believe anything that isn't supported with evidence. Religion is not supported with evidence, so I refuse to believe in it. Atheism is the belief that there is no God. I believe there is no God. I am an atheist. I fail to see any insanity in that conclusion.

Quit flattering yourself with references to wisdom; being stubborn and refusing to take a stance is not wise. Being nice for the sake of appealing to the masses is not an intellectual stance. Go right ahead and take that stance. You will always have the ability to believe whatever you want, and I will always have the ability to judge and dismiss your beliefs as bullshit.

http://www.italamericanblogging.blogspot.com/


If this really is your blog than agnosticism is merely a facade you put up to deter arguments with atheists. Douche.

http://www.italamericanblogging.blogspot.com/


If this really is your blog than agnosticism is merely a facade you put up to deter arguments with atheists. Douche.

Since your so keen on knowing who I am, you would have looked at that latest post on the blog and realized when it was posted: MAY 2007, and let me further say that a lot has changed in those 10 Months, beliefs wise and what not. So let me just inform you so you may know that that blog is out of date and even my official stance of agnosticism has not always been the agnostic stance, that things were different than from now. Surely you must understand a lot can change in a persons' life in even a moment, let alone 10 months.

Now you did something you made an assumption which is a proposition that is taken for granted, that is, as if it were known to be true. If its taken for granted you are not inclined to seek evidence for it, wait... Oh wait... So your saying things (Calling me a "douche") without evidence to back it up... You are ASSUMING THINGS! Thats illogical better watch out your methodical ways of thinking are slipping. Enough with the Polemics and Conversational intolerance on my and other peoples views alright, because as far as I can tell most debates on this forum are fuel by polemics and Conversational intolerance. Perhaps some of these arguments are founded on apologias but most on are founded on polemics.

Now I know the beliefs I have are perhaps considered "illogical." Hey fine, but unlike yourself and others like you I do not need to rationalize on the irrationalities, I unlike yourself will leave it alone because, there are things in life better left unprovable or not argued over but rather just observed and admired, not because "it will shock the world," "I am in denial," or something like that but because, it takes the mystery out of life, it removes the humanity from the human. So what you have done is in effect turned off your humanity in exchange for predictability and routine, the only thing in my life that is predictable and routine is a computer, you are effectually no longer "living" but "dead" by turning yourself into a piece of hardware, how because, you NEED to rationalize everything, even if it is irrational.

Way to respond only to an obviously satirical and illogical side note and completely ignore the argument at hand in defeat.


So what you have done is in effect turned off your humanity in exchange for predictability and routine, the only thing in my life that is predictable and routine is a computer, you are effectually no longer "living" but "dead" by turning yourself into a piece of hardware, how because, you NEED to rationalize everything, even if it is irrational.

Weren't you just preaching about the dangers of assumption? I am constantly in the realm of the unknown; science and logic generate more questions than they answer. How is that predictable and routine?

Absolutely I'm a polemic: the devil's advocate in its finest sense. Refute my arguments or adopt my opinions; I will allow nothing else.

Way to respond only to an obviously satirical and illogical side note and completely ignore the argument at hand in defeat.


So what you have done is in effect turned off your humanity in exchange for predictability and routine, the only thing in my life that is predictable and routine is a computer, you are effectually no longer "living" but "dead" by turning yourself into a piece of hardware, how because, you NEED to rationalize everything, even if it is irrational.

Weren't you just preaching about the dangers of assumption? I am constantly in the realm of the unknown; science and logic generate more questions than they answer. How is that predictable and routine?

Absolutely I'm a polemic: the devil's advocate in its finest sense. Refute my arguments or adopt my opinions; I will allow nothing else.

To be honest I thought to some degree I was answering but w/e...

The thought process of logic and reason are routine and predictable, thus allows no room for variables everything needs to be a constant, a sure thing in order to come rational conclusions... I am not rejecting rationality but I reject rationalizing the world and the universe over.

Aggression is founded in emotions, polemics are the aggressive attack on another's opinions, there maybe life in you after all being that your arguments come from an emotional standpoint; to bad the emotions you probably are experiencing are the ones holding you back.

But I hold no interest in your opinions; likewise as you hold no interest or perhaps a disinterest in my opinions. To each his own path, what we think is known to be true nothing can convince us but ourselves. You said it yourself we live in the realm of the unknown; so agnosticism is a great stance to take on issues of belief and knowledge.

BTW, the warning against assumptions was sarcastic remark... To me assumptions aren't neutral but can either benefit or hurt us, of course unknowingly though. Agnosticism is the better stance to take on with anything, you may say it is logical laziness, if you do thats fine, debate it with your like minded athie... sorry... Agnostic atheist friends. To me I find it logical laziness to say "NO, Its Fake" as if it was so definitive than to say "Its a possibility that [fill-in the blank] is fake or real."

The thought process of logic and reason is routine and predictable

The creative process of developing hypotheses for the scientific method is not routine and predictable.

thus allows no room for variables everything needs to be a constant

Look up Quantum Mechanics.

I am not rejecting rationality but I reject rationalizing the world and the universe over.

So you're saying we live in an irrational world that cannot be fully comprehended by humans. That is a strong stance to take for for an agnostic; I like it.

Aggression is founded in emotions, polemics are the aggressive attack on another's opinions, there maybe life in you after all being that your arguments come from an emotional standpoint; to bad the emotions you probably are experiencing are the ones holding you back.

Irrelevant.

Agnosticism is the better stance to take on with anything, you may say it is logical laziness, if you do thats fine, debate it with your like minded athie... sorry... Agnostic atheist friends. To me I find it logical laziness to say "NO, Its Fake" as if it was so definitive than to say "Its a possibility that [fill-in the blank] is fake or real."

I choose to debate it with you to test the strength of my stance. If it crumbles under scrutiny then I will change my opinion. You can say atheist, it is a word that does exist that describes people who hold an actual belief; your new terminology doesn't quite work.

I never claimed to know a God doesn't exist, I merely said Atheism is the logical conclusion I arrive at and therefore the one I believe. Atheism is my religion, if you will, but I arrive at it through rational thought and by nothing else.

You may deny it but I'm having the feeling that you are still a theist. Deep down do you believe there is a god but take the agnostic viewpoint externally out of respect for others? On your deathbed will you die an agnostic?

'If it crumbles under scrutiny'

What does it matter if it crumbles under scrutiny? I'm being serious here, too (something very rare to get from me). If an illogical and unscientific idea works towards freeing your resources up for better investment in other areas of life, why abandon it for the one that stands up to the judgment?

Is being right more important than having a good life that enables you to dedicate yourself to improving others' lives regardless of their own ideas' ability to stand up to scrutiny?

The creative process of developing hypotheses for the scientific method is not routine and predictable.

-----------------------------

Look up Quantum Mechanics.

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So you're saying we live in an irrational world that cannot be fully comprehended by humans. That is a strong stance to take for for an agnostic; I like it.

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Irrelevant.

--------------------------------

I choose to debate it with you to test the strength of my stance. If it crumbles under scrutiny then I will change my opinion. You can say atheist, it is a word that does exist that describes people who hold an actual belief; your new terminology doesn't quite work.

I never claimed to know a God doesn't exist, I merely said Atheism is the logical conclusion I arrive at and therefore the one I believe. Atheism is my religion, if you will, but I arrive at it through rational thought and by nothing else.

You may deny it but I'm having the feeling that you are still a theist. Deep down do you believe there is a god but take the agnostic viewpoint externally out of respect for others? On your deathbed will you die an agnostic?

Oh really, critical thinking is the systematic evaluation or formulation of beliefs, or statements, by rational standards. Now systematic means system a way of doing things, its a patterns, cycles, a procedure. Patterns, Cycles and Procedures are routine and predictable by there own definition even the Scientific Process(not attacking science; more so trying to make a point) is routine and pedictable: Question, Research, Hypothesis, Experiment, Collect the Data, Anaylze, whether or not these results are true you report them and start again from hypothesis if they are not... Its predictable and routine by its very nature its systematic. Dont hand me this: "The creative process of developing hypotheses for the scientific method is not routine and predictable." And expect me to say alright; your right...

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Quantum Mechanics, now people from the spiritual community are using that as their own evidence for spiritual beliefs, are you hiding behind something the very people you are fighting use in their defense? Besides, the idea of absurdity is further proven in quantum mechanics that these random little quarks things a fraction of a size of atoms are the basics of our universe and they are randomly slipping in and out of this dimension and back again, sounds very uniquely absurd universe now does it not?

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You said it yourself "Look up Quantum Mechanics." It sounds more like a right stance but I don't deal in absolutes in this universe because, nothing is absolute if its not absolute than it can change and if its changing how can we say we have knowledge of everything? In the end "Its a we don't know for sure" indeed Agnostic and indeed I like it to.

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Condescending.

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Like you I choose to debate it with you and others like you to test the strength of my stance as well, your not the first person to come up with the idea. Atheist like theist seems to deal or think they deal in absolutes "God Does or Does Not Exist". It would be more realistic however, to say we don't know if god exist and more of a smarter move to say "We Don't Know" instead of just a belief, after all your in search of knowledge than mere beliefs and it seems to me it would be more knowledgeable to say "We Don't Know" than to say "I Believe god does(not) exist." So for the sake of saving you embarrassment I just said Agnostic Atheism or the view of those who do not know of the existence or nonexistence of God or gods, and do not believe in them. I find it works very well.

I will not... Atheism is not so much a religion its a way of thinking, like any other person in life. I am a theist, im not foxhole atheist. From the beginning of this thread it was supposed to be about the stance we as a society should take as a collective when it come to this absolute theory of whether God does or does not exist, I agreed saying that we cannot know for sure so its open to interpretation and closed to certainty. Personally I am Gnostic on the whole thing a Panentheist thats my personal view and I said that we should: "let the spread of religion not be evangelized; let the spread of atheism not be debated, rather to each his own path and yet we are together and let us respect one another's paths through life as if it were our own path." So from this whole thing as a collective society we are or should have a "face of doubt and uncertainty" but in private or with those who wish to know more have a feeling of "I have a true belief in this, and it can change if [fillin the blank] so happens." Now you know why I said condescending because you have seem to assume an air of superiority over all other ideas that are not your own, like as if they can all be discredited.

'If it crumbles under scrutiny'

What does it matter if it crumbles under scrutiny? I'm being serious here, too (something very rare to get from me). If an illogical and unscientific idea works towards freeing your resources up for better investment in other areas of life, why abandon it for the one that stands up to the judgment?

Is being right more important than having a good life that enables you to dedicate yourself to improving others' lives regardless of their own ideas' ability to stand up to scrutiny?

There computers, if its "irrevelant" "Illogical" "Unreasonable" they wont do it, Now I am not saying that I need to jump off the highest building to get thrills in life because, that can be illogical towards living life. But, to believe in something that will crumble under scrutiny is not freeing its absurd all on its own, you know history is proof to examples of irrational behavior: Example: American Revolution, its illogical and against all odds that the patriots would fight and WIN against the British Empire. The Brits were stronger and had more power than ever before and the Patriots (I guess being) illogical still decided to take up arms against them!

Now without a bit of irrationality the patriots would have never stood up to the British Empire and America would never be! So you see a bit of irrationality goes a long way.

Thank You Hex for the Back up...

'If it crumbles under scrutiny'

What does it matter if it crumbles under scrutiny? I'm being serious here, too (something very rare to get from me). If an illogical and unscientific idea works towards freeing your resources up for better investment in other areas of life, why abandon it for the one that stands up to the judgment?

Is being right more important than having a good life that enables you to dedicate yourself to improving others' lives regardless of their own ideas' ability to stand up to scrutiny?

I completely agree, Hex.

I mean, really. What's the point? I don't need to worry myself with all of this ``The world is round'' nonsense, I know the world is flat and there's no reason for me to change that.

I can have a good life ignoring all evidence to the contrary. There's no reason for me to change my beliefs in the presence of direct refutation of them.

Quality post as always. Thanks, Hex.

I mean, really. What's the point? I don't need to worry myself with all of this ``The world is round'' nonsense, I know the world is flat and there's no reason for me to change that.

I hope this was sarcasm, but after seeing that Flat Earth Society bullshit, I can never be so sure.

Trust me it was sarcasm I know where he stands as I am sure he knows where I stand.

But if you read what I said about his Scrutiny idea than you know where I stand.

Deep in thought one day I realized a problem that lead me to stray away from atheism and more to a agnosticism. Although there is no proof for a God or a need for one, there is actually a rational stance based on our own existence that a God is more than possible. I had mentioned before that the universe is a product of a singular energy or 1. Everything is materialized from this energy including us. Evidence seems to show from looking out toward the universe that this energy is simulating all the possibilities that can be formed from energy including us (all-knowing). This energy is everything that exists (omnipresence). This energy determines the function of everything that exists within the universe, even how you think and your potentially different paths in life (omnipotent). Now wrap your minds around this. If this energy can create these billions of different consciouses here on earth, how is it not completely possible that the entire universe itself has manifested an overall conscious within the same system of energy?

And there you have it, a perfectly logical and rational explanation for the presence of a God, backed by science. It's not a question of whether this "God" system exists, but whether it developed a conscious overall, and plays an active role in its own function.

Deep in thought one day I realized a problem that lead me to stray away from atheism and more to a agnosticism. Although there is no proof for a God or a need for one, there is actually a rational stance based on our own existence that a God is more than possible. I had mentioned before that the universe is a product of a singular energy or 1. Everything is materialized from this energy including us. Evidence seems to show from looking out toward the universe that this energy is simulating all the possibilities that can be formed from energy including us (all-knowing). This energy is everything that exists (omnipresence). This energy determines the function of everything that exists within the universe, even how you think and your potentially different paths in life (omnipotent). Now wrap your minds around this. If this energy can create these billions of different consciouses here on earth, how is it not completely possible that the entire universe itself has manifested an overall conscious within the same system of energy?

And there you have it, a perfectly logical and rational explanation for the presence of a God, backed by science. It's not a question of whether this "God" system exists, but whether it developed a conscious overall, and plays an active role in its own function.

You make a compelling case, to bad that is is theist stance and if your an agnostic at heart this seems to win you over making you theist. Science and atheism (being they seem intertwined at times) would need to prove that there is nothingness before consciousness. A theist would want to prove that there was consciousness before there was "nothingness" or as spiritual guru's call "no-thingness."

Nonetheless, it seems highly possible for this stance to be so. Unless you count those who think that God is a personal being with a body like ours since we came from the likeness of his image. But, personally I see nothing wrong.

The only way this would make me a theist though is to change the definition of God. The thing I would mention is that it's unimportant, unnecessary, and irrational for there to be a "God being"as there isn't any evidence of any control being executed on the universe. In fact if one did exist, the universe would cease to function if it weren't set to static parameters but could be varied by an overall conscience. For example of fallacy: All-knowledge would no longer take place if it were manipulated, therefore if a God existed, it would no longer be a God. God creates it's own impossibility for there to be a God that would manipulate anything.

Shit, even I myself, with an intelligence level three deviation points higher than average, basically one of the most efficient brains in the world, I cannot answer every question, and I'm no better off than anyone else on this planet. We'll only get along when we stop fighting over theories and unite under our ability to never know such things.

Science is cumulative. We will be able to understand anything and everything thing one day. Maybe 1 person may not know everything but, like a colony of ant we can accomplish anything. Just look at computers now-a-days. We can fit a chip that used to take up the room of a building on a pinhead.
You may not be as smart as Aristotle, but you know more than him.

^Only problem I had with your post.

Humanity CAN do anything we want, but if there are religious people still believing what they think is true, they will never feel the urge to find the real, true answer to the big questions.

If religious people really think that their god is the one true god, they should help science because it's only going to prove them right.

The religious will never help science because it's against many religions to question God's divinity.

I don't believe you are correct that we will solve all questions because some aren't solvable through scientific method, and can only be theorized. Even if everyone in the world became experts in one field, you'd have to have a very large overall base of knowledge to solve most questions as they are intrinsically tied together. For instance, DNA and light have a connection, however, unless you an expert in biology specifically dealing with DNA as well as a physicist, you'd never know this connection. Without diverse personal knowledge knowledge is useless.

Really the only way for us to solve such spiritual questions would really be to learn everything and know everything there is split between all beings and then become telepathically linked to each other to form a massive conscience, but wouldn't we all just be God then. Hence, we are already part of a God system, and we are already proving it right now. Religious Gods are just a personification of this energy based functioning system.

The religious will never help science because it's against many religions to question God's divinity.

Not so, Gnosticism critical value is Curiosity... What makes God , God? What gives us life? Where do we come from? Where are We Going? What is the Reality that Sustains all realities? These are things a Gnostic or even just a person would ask... It is curiosity that allowed us to survive and it is curiosity that will lead us forward.

If you know that the universe is invariably flawed than you know that in your own physical limitation you can understand (gradually) parts of the flaw. Even though you have limitation you still seek to know. Like a "Person with a bad hip still seeks to overcome his disability."

The religious will never help science because it's against many religions to question God's divinity.

I don't believe you are correct that we will solve all questions because some aren't solvable through scientific method, and can only be theorized. Even if everyone in the world became experts in one field, you'd have to have a very large overall base of knowledge to solve most questions as they are intrinsically tied together. For instance, DNA and light have a connection, however, unless you an expert in biology specifically dealing with DNA as well as a physicist, you'd never know this connection. Without diverse personal knowledge knowledge is useless.

Really the only way for us to solve such spiritual questions would really be to learn everything and know everything there is split between all beings and then become telepathically linked to each other to form a massive conscience, but wouldn't we all just be God then. Hence, we are already part of a God system, and we are already proving it right now. Religious Gods are just a personification of this energy based functioning system.

Anything is possible. Anything is solvable. Anything can be solved through the scientific method. Nothing is ever 100% true fact though. Science doesn't give pure fact because there are always variables. But, we can use the evidence science gives. Assumptions must be made at some level. Yes, if we don't explode ourselves, the human population could solve anything to a very good level certainty. Science is cumulative and exponential.

The only question is, "Will we be faced with riddle after riddle forever or is there a definate theory of everything?"

The only way we can figure out the answer to that question is to keep on going. So, it is inconsequential what your personal beliefs are. And that's all you're doing right now, is stating your personal beliefs, as am I. But, the outcome of "the only question" would show who is right. You or I and I doubt it will be solved in our lifetimes.

Granted, there are things that seem out there and very hard to understand, but anything can be solved. Look at all the things we've learned already over the last 100 years. 100 years ago we were inventing the first airplanes. 70 years later they were on the damn moon. And 100 years is jack shit in the big scheme of things, only one generation. If we don't die out imagine what the human species could do in a few thousand years from now or even a million.

The next step in human evolution, I personally think, will be a biomechanical revolution. We will improve ourselves and our machines to the point of actually being able to grasp anything. They predict that within 50 years a computer could surpass the level of intelligence of a human. Yes, yes I know calculators already better at maths, but I mean "real" intelligence.

Even if we can't comprehend everything in our present form, I bet eventually our creations will be able to. Those creations could be genetically modified humans or machines.

The only stance any sane person can make on the existence of a divine being(s), is that nobody knows. To claim you know, is impossible. You can only tell people of what you've been told or thought of, but not actually know for sure.

To be an atheist, you must blind yourself to the possibility that a divine being has left no tracks to follow. No trace means you can also not claim you do know their is a god.

I know there is going to be some religious whiners saying ,"I believe despite no proof," you are simply insane.

I leave you with this thought. Isn't it possible that even if there is a god, maybe the only thing we were supposed to know to make this earth heaven is to humbly admit our pathetic human limitations. We are all weak, and stuck in the same place, and our only end direction is to accept ourselves for our sinful nature, and work towards creating a world to the best of our abilities.

Shit, even I myself, with an intelligence level three deviation points higher than average, basically one of the most efficient brains in the world, I cannot answer every question, and I'm no better off than anyone else on this planet. We'll only get along when we stop fighting over theories and unite under our ability to never know such things.


I'm the smartest guy in the world. I sleep only one hour a night, and I am a heroin addict. I can rationalize that we can never know.

The religious will never help science because it's against many religions to question God's divinity.

What is there to fear?

Why did the church law makers deem science so inappropraite for a sheep's mind?

Are they afraid science will prove everything they say is true?

Not likely.

People who question God have weak faith in God. You aren't supposed to question God's actions because it's a sign of pride, the deadly sin that all others are derived. When you question God, you are saying that you are his equal to question him, and you go straight to hell.Satan was put in hell for questioning God and his authority. You probably aren't much of a Christian if you question God.

I'm not sure what the scenario is with other religions, but this is how it is with Christianity. Christianity functions on faith not proof. To these people, there is no reason for proof cause God has told them how it is.

Feds In Town-You make fun of me for mentioning I'm smart, yet you have no real comments or thoughts about the post. I'm smarter than you, douche.

Knowing everything is impossible to attain through scientific method because our ability to observe everything and test every theory is limited. Really, the only way to find out if we are right about God is to implode the universe and find out if there is one. "I fought way to hard as a Spartan in Halo 3 to let that shit happen now",lol.

People who question God have weak faith in God. You aren't supposed to question God's actions because it's a sign of pride, the deadly sin that all others are derived.

If you are so smart, why do you have an imaginary friend you call God? I suppose you can be smart AND insane...

If you believe in an undefined abstract version of God, no I cannot prove that he isn't there, BUT if you define that deity well enough (like the christian God, for example) then he can be proven not to exist, at least in the way he was/is defined by most Christians.

Honestly, I have not seen anything in your posts that suggests you are some kind of genius........and you speak of pride. Lying is a sin as well.

I don't believe in any type of God(s). I believe that the Universe is made of energy and functions within the restrictions of Energy. There is no all powerful being controlling anything. Lots of evidence supporting my theory, practically none supporting God. However, even though I don't believe in God I have learned enough about Christianity to know your not supposed to question God or the holy trinity.

Fuck, the Bible was just a book of stories to perpetuate a system of morality on the masses to maximize the wealth of the rulers and improve quality of life for the peasants. God is the personification of the universe's natural order that determines all existence. People were stupid as shit much like today and can't comprehend such a system of energy, so a big guy in the sky was created to ease their minds. "God" simplifies and extremely complex idea.

How did I lie. I scored a 140 on the Canadian IQ test. You know what the highest possible score was for this test in my age group? 140. I aced the test, it was easy. I then took another test created for people who beat the aforementioned test. I scored an estimated 186 IQ. When it came to the mathematical and spacial thinking, I got 100%. So fuck you. How is a Genius supposed to sound?

I scored an estimated 186 IQ. When it came to the mathematical and spacial thinking, I got 100%. So fuck you. How is a Genius supposed to sound?


I am not sure, I am not a genius. Just seemst to me a person with an IQ of 186 would have more pressing matters on his mind. I mean, shouldn't you be working out the kinks in Quantum Physics or searching for the holy grail of physics...the theory of everything?

With an IQ of 186, I cannot believe you haven't tried to join Mensa, get on Jeopardy, write a philosophical thesis that shakes the foundations of modern philosophy.

Instead of doing all or any of these things, you instead jack off your ego here on Totse........you should be smart enough to realize that is what you are doing.

Strange, is all I am saying, but who am I to question genius.

I'm lazy, and I'm not that old. I'm only 24 and had a lot of problems in life that have really kept me at bay. Currently I'm working for a family business but am preparing to enter university one day to take theoretical math or physics. I also like political science, psychology and sociology. Give me time and you'll probably start hearing my name kicking around.

What's the difference between theoretical maths and applied? This is an actual question. I can't think of a difference and never actually heard the term theoretical math.

Would applied just be physics and theoretical straight maths with variables and shit that don't really relate to anything?

If that were the case, then I would take applied. Why take a math that doesn't really mean anything?

I'm taking integral calculus right now. At times I think, "Why are we even learning this bullshit?" , but then after a while I see how integrals relate to my other fields of study. I personally wouldn't be motivated to learn maths that don't have a definite purpose, but hey, that's just me.

Plus, I guess theoretical maths are how great discoveries are made that can't be thought up any other way than through math.

Sorry for the tangent I got off on, I'm just curious about theoretical math. For me, everything has been pretty much applied.

Nobody gives a shit about your IQ or your intelligence; especially when you apparently can't get definitions of things like 'atheism' and 'agnosticism' straight.

It's basically creating ways to solve problems that might not even exist in the real world, but often leads to ways of solving problems in the real world. I like physics to though, especially studying the nature of energy as almost everything in reality is determined by this basic ingredients function. Even money is just paper or electronic representation energy to do work.

It's basically creating ways to solve problems that might not even exist in the real world, but often leads to ways of solving problems in the real world. I like physics to though, especially studying the nature of energy as almost everything in reality is determined by this basic ingredients function. Even money is just paper or electronic representation energy to do work.

Yeah, that's what I pretty much thought it was.

Sounds pretty cool though. Many things have been thought up through maths alone. For example some guy I forget the name, was very eccentric. He was a close friend of Einstein and in the 50's, he found a loophole in Einstein's theory of relativity that would actually allow someone to travel back in time. I'm not exactly sure how this story goes, but supposedly he was able to design a time machine... The only problem is that it would take all the energy from a entire solar system to run. It would recreate going back in time by spinning in a loop really fast or something. Kinda like how superman traveled back in time by circling the earth like a million times.

I'm not sure if that's exactly how the story goes, someone correct me if they want to.

Obviously, an experiment like this would be impossible to run (with current technology), but there is some solid theory behind it. Stories like this make me think anything is possible if you just have the resources to make it possible. And the only resource you really need is time and motivation (maybe a few raw materials as well). This is pretty much why I think the scientific can achieve anything. The only problem is time. We're always running out of it.

How did I lie. I scored a 140 on the Canadian IQ test. You know what the highest possible score was for this test in my age group? 140. I aced the test, it was easy. I then took another test created for people who beat the aforementioned test. I scored an estimated 186 IQ. When it came to the mathematical and spacial thinking, I got 100%. So fuck you. How is a Genius supposed to sound?

IQ tests are a bullshit measure of intelligence. Read some books on it and quit yanking your own chain. Claiming intelligence will get you nowhere, proving it will earn respect and that you have not done.

People who question God have weak faith in God. You aren't supposed to question God's actions because it's a sign of pride, the deadly sin that all others are derived. When you question God, you are saying that you are his equal to question him, and you go straight to hell.Satan was put in hell for questioning God and his authority. You probably aren't much of a Christian if you question God.

I'm not sure what the scenario is with other religions, but this is how it is with Christianity. Christianity functions on faith not proof. To these people, there is no reason for proof cause God has told them how it is.

Feds In Town-You make fun of me for mentioning I'm smart, yet you have no real comments or thoughts about the post. I'm smarter than you, douche.

Knowing everything is impossible to attain through scientific method because our ability to observe everything and test every theory is limited. Really, the only way to find out if we are right about God is to implode the universe and find out if there is one. "I fought way to hard as a Spartan in Halo 3 to let that shit happen now",lol.

I guarantee you are not smarter than me, man. I'm pretty sure you have a superiority complex, mixed with mild autism as well that provokes you to make such outlandish claims about your intelligence on the Internet. Suck a dick.

Suggested Reading (http://www.rwrinnovations.com/images/how_to_stay_humble_when_your_smarter_than_everybod y_else.jpg)

Humility makes everyone else happy, and my job isn't to make others happy.

IQ tests aren't perfect, but they do give us a limited glimpse of where we rank on the intellectual scale within our own country. Really, the only important part of the whole test is the section focusing on abstract thinking and spacial thinking. Some of it is biased to those with more knowledge.

In this thread I laid out a rational explanation defining the only thing close to God and proving the impossibility of a theist God. I didn't just give a "there's no proof, so there's no God" statement like most on here, but an actual reason that will eventually be backed by science that it would actually be impossible for a God to exist.

Humility makes everyone else happy, and my job isn't to make others happy.

IQ tests aren't perfect, but they do give us a limited glimpse of where we rank on the intellectual scale within our own country. Really, the only important part of the whole test is the section focusing on abstract thinking and spacial thinking. Some of it is biased to those with more knowledge.

In this thread I laid out a rational explanation defining the only thing close to God and proving the impossibility of a theist God. I didn't just give a "there's no proof, so there's no God" statement like most on here, but an actual reason that will eventually be backed by science that it would actually be impossible for a God to exist.

It pisses me off that the belief in the existence of a God is such a personal choice, which effects no one else, but your choice can carry a social stigma.

Resentment leads to Self-Importance... Humility shows that you should not pride yourself on your own delusional self-importance, you play a part in the grand scheme perhaps but the grand scheme is not you, so get over yourself. Its puritanical to think in such a way that you have this imagined self-importance.

For those who in NO GOD: The only person you are important to is yourself, no one else. So stop thinking you are so important that you are over a grander plan; if there even is one.

For those who believe in a God: Your important to your deity, but most deities even wish you express a degree of humility over just how important you really are V. how important you think you are.

Humility is a waste of time.

If I were a ruler I would love to have a great population of peasants who try to humble themselves, than I would a population of peasants who consider themselves to be important.

You say that those who believe in a God have the attention of that God and that God realizes that person's importance. What makes you say that? Do theists receive special treatment when a tsunami hits? A volcanoe erupts? A madman starts shooting up a place? Cancer strikes?

Basically, shit happens to believers and non-believers alike. The same random shit. A belief that there is a God and he/she gives a shit, seems like it offers a measure of comfort and nothing more.

For those who in NO GOD: The only person you are important to is yourself, no one else. So stop thinking you are so important that you are over a grander plan; if there even is one.



You're not making sense.

Are over a grander plan? What the fuck does that even mean?

Edit: There is no plan. This doesn't mean that Atheists or Agnostics think that they are all important. Even if we did it would be irrelevant because we are only seeking the truth. It doesn't matter what the fuck else we do.

Resentment leads to Self-Importance... Humility shows that you should not pride yourself on your own delusional self-importance, you play a part in the grand scheme perhaps but the grand scheme is not you, so get over yourself. Its puritanical to think in such a way that you have this imagined self-importance.

For those who in NO GOD: The only person you are important to is yourself, no one else. So stop thinking you are so important that you are over a grander plan; if there even is one.

For those who believe in a God: Your important to your deity, but most deities even wish you express a degree of humility over just how important you really are V. how important you think you are.

Humility is to grease the social gears. Everyone is inherently self-important and egotistical. If you aren't, then you probably have depression or at least a low self-esteem, or are simply a loser. I'm not here to grease gears. Proof that I'm right is the fact that we all post here because we think that our opinions are important, don't we? This site is the essence of self-important people broadcasting their all-important opinions. You can humble yourself all you want, but I'm not going to lie about my nature.

Everyone is inherently self-important and egotistical. If you aren't, then you probably have depression or at least a low self-esteem, or are simply a loser.

Generalizations are lame.

Proof that I'm right is the fact that we all post here because we think that our opinions are important, don't we?

There is a humongous difference between 'thinking your opinion is important enough that you might want others to hear about it', and 'being a douchebag that keeps broadcasting his alleged genius IQ when it as absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand'.

Suggested Reading (http://www.rwrinnovations.com/images/how_to_stay_humble_when_your_smarter_than_everybod y_else.jpg)

I lol'd.

Strange, is all I am saying, but who am I to question genius.

Beautiful. *wipes away a tear*

You're not making sense.

Are over a grander plan? What the fuck does that even mean?

Edit: There is no plan. This doesn't mean that Atheists or Agnostics think that they are all important. Even if we did it would be irrelevant because we are only seeking the truth. It doesn't matter what the fuck else we do.

WoW, I have no clue WTF I just said... :-/

I Guess I was trying to say was that: Being that most atheist and perhaps some agnostics believe in no plan, than you dont need to worry about getting anywhere anyway, so dont even trying to prove that you are right over others, being that you dont believe in plan anyway.

What the point of trying to do anything thing at all if there IS a grander plan? God's just gonna make everything work the way he wants it to anyways.

The only reason there is for an Atheist to do any good is to make life HERE better for everyone. I'd say that's a lot more righteous than only doing good because you're scared you won't go to some fairy-dreamland when you die.

If there is no great plan there is anything we can accomplish anything, not only what some God wants us to do. Fuck fate and fuck God's plan. If God's plan includes all the suffering that is in the world today than he has a piss-poor plan.

I'm sick and tired of creationists thinking that "they have more morals" because they have to account to someone in the afterlife. It's complete bullshit and has nothing to do with the argument that God is a fairytale. Even if they did have more morals, which they don't, it doesn't prove that he actually exists.

I really hate how this forum just BREEDS these huge, 8-10+ page threads that fill up with bullshit from just about everyone.

Seriously, there's no discussion here, just incomprehensible noise. Let's leave Mr. Mensa to j/o to his brain and move on to REAL threads.

What the point of trying to do anything thing at all if there IS a grander plan? God's just gonna make everything work the way he wants it to anyways.

The only reason there is for an Atheist to do any good is to make life HERE better for everyone. I'd say that's a lot more righteous than only doing good because you're scared you won't go to some fairy-dreamland when you die.

If there is no great plan there is anything we can accomplish anything, not only what some God wants us to do. Fuck fate and fuck God's plan. If God's plan includes all the suffering that is in the world today than he has a piss-poor plan.

I'm sick and tired of creationists thinking that "they have more morals" because they have to account to someone in the afterlife. It's complete bullshit and has nothing to do with the argument that God is a fairytale. Even if they did have more morals, which they don't, it doesn't prove that he actually exists.

God does not need us, we need God... The only way for God to manifest his will in the physical is through us. Thus, we need to do work and contribute to the grand plan, I believe sloth is a seven deadly sin for a reason.

Two things about that paragraph, it seems self-righteous of you to think an atheist alone is trying to make the world better for everyone, everyone is trying to make the world better for everyone, whether it be humanism or religion. Secondly, not all spiritual or religious traditions are out to scare you shitless as some subservient pussy, have you given it the thought that people may do kind things because, they wanted to? Your statement above proves why people should walk with a good degree of humility...

You listen to the Christian fundamentalist message, like as if it is the only thing, I pray that you wake up. Fuck Fate not the larger fate but the fates, the fates that dictate how old you will be when you die and what you will die from! But God's Fate for Humanity is a Plan and we will all see the light one way or another.

Your right with this paragraph, well at least with the existence of god but thats just personally, I can go either way with the creationist or evolutionary view.

You may wonder, "why has he made the eyes going around as an icon?" Look in the bold words above...

God does not need us, we need God... The only way for God to manifest his will in the physical is through us. Thus, we need to do work and contribute to the grand plan, I believe sloth is a seven deadly sin for a reason.

Two things about that paragraph, it seems self-righteous of you to think an atheist alone is trying to make the world better for everyone, everyone is trying to make the world better for everyone, whether it be humanism or religion. Secondly, not all spiritual or religious traditions are out to scare you shitless as some subservient pussy, have you given it the thought that people may do kind things because, they wanted to? Your statement above proves why people should walk with a good degree of humility...

You listen to the Christian fundamentalist message, like as if it is the only thing, I pray that you wake up. Fuck Fate not the larger fate but the fates, the fates that dictate how old you will be when you die and what you will die from! But God's Fate for Humanity is a Plan and we will all see the light one way or another.

Your right with this paragraph, well at least with the existence of god but thats just personally, I can go either way with the creationist or evolutionary view.

You may wonder, "why has he made the eyes going around as an icon?" Look in the bold words above...

You put a lot of words in my mouth, so I'll just start from the top.

I don't need God. That's the first thing I feel I need to clarify. What has he ever done for anyone? Nothing. This is because he does not exist.

Secondly, what does sloth have to do with anything? I work my ass off for myself and my family. The only thing I don't work for is some random grand scheme that I don't know the purpose of. How do you help coax the scheme, if you do not know it?

Thirdly, I did not say only Atheists are the only people trying to change the world. That would be foolish. I only said that the afterlife is not the motivation that Atheists need to help other people. They do it out of the kindness of their hearts because they get satisfaction out of helping people.

Fourthly, I have no problem at all with unorganized religion. As soon as organization comes into play, it's a business that's trying to get your money. Plain and simple.

Fifthly, humility has nothing to do with any of my arguments. It has no impact on the truth to the grand question. The question being, "Is there a God or not?".

Sixth, don't prey for me. Waste your time if you want, but the only thing you are doing is offending the real god (if there is one) and offending me. Prayer is a complete waste of time if there is a grand scheme. God will only do what's in the plan anyways. Is he going to alter his grand plan because of a single prayer? You know how many prayers he gets in a day? (again, if he exists)

Seventh, how do you see the light one day if you're dead?

Eighth, I have no problem at all with anyone's religion, if it helps them. The problem I have is the lying that most organized religions have. Kids are brainwashed from birth into what they should believe. If adult people want to believe in fairy-tales, go ahead. But, children should be taught everything and learn to think for themselves.

"You listen to the Christian fundamentalist message, like as if it is the only thing" --No, I don't. I listen to every message from every major religion. It's all the same BS one way or another. They're all just trying to get money and power. Some individual people may want to actually help you, but why do they always need money?

I woke up a long time ago. I know evolution like the back of my hand. To me, it's obvious how life became so diverse. But, why would evolutionary theory conflict with the belief of God? You don't actually think that animals just popped up out of nowhere, do you? What about the dinosaurs? What about all the fossils? You think they were just put there to test our faith? Please, don't tell me that's what you think. God may have created the first life form. If he actually exists, that's ALL he did.

I know I was being an asshole to you earlier. Sorry if I made you feel bad, but sometimes it can be the only way to effectively get a message across.

The reason I want people to stop believing has nothing to do with the reason a religious person has for trying to convert people. I'm not trying to save individual people.

I want mankind to find the real truth. If the real truth is actually one that has a God, I'm all for it. But, if people believe that they already know the answer (which no one really does.) they won't feel the need to find the real truth.

Blah, blah, blah. There's almost always no point arguing with a person of faith because of the faith. To a creationist's point of view, we are just testing the faith. To argue one with faith, is to make it stronger. But, I hope that maybe someone realizes that any religion can't tell you all the answers. You have to find them out for yourself. And that, is the point of life.


Life is one long journey of learning. No one knows all the answers. But, you can try to find them out. I question everything I hear. That's why I am not religious. I consider myself Agnostic. There is a chance that anything can happen. But, at heart, I personally think that the chances for a God are not the greatest. That, is probably why I am actually an Atheist. But, I don't get hung up on labels. I believe, what I believe. Who knows, maybe I'll have some divine religious experience one day, but don't count on it.

And yeah, I must be high if I actually wrote this much shit for apparently no reason. ;)

Fun and games. The only reason to do anything.

To be an atheist, you must blind yourself to the possibility that a divine being has left no tracks to follow. No trace means you can also not claim you do know their is a god.


Shit, even I myself, with an intelligence level three deviation points higher than average, basically one of the most efficient brains in the world

Proven false.



Furthermore, we would have to deny knowledge of many other beings/objects, for ex Russell's magic teacup. The being/object in discussion should atleast be non-falsifiable.

Proven false.



Furthermore, we would have to deny knowledge of many other beings/objects, for ex Russell's magic teacup. The being/object in discussion should atleast be non-falsifiable.

Haha, I wasn't even paying attention to his English. But I looked back at the OP, and the next line down is:

I know there is going to be some religious whiners saying ,"I believe despite no proof," you are simply insane.

You may call me a gnostic atheist. Most religions have tenets that a child would recognize as absurd.

I'm abandoning this thread as the topic was left a long time ago. Fuck, did it really matter if I mentioned I was a genius as part of a statement? Instead I should have said that thousands of geniuses around the world haven't been able to find answers to such questions with any degree of certainty. I didn't realize it offended everyone so terribly that I used my myself as an example in my thread.

Whether any God exists or not is impossible to answer, however most Gods in the religious sense are improbable, and many things the Bible says are impossible as the universe would not function if it were true. If you want to keep believing in make belief things, it's your choice, but keep your made up rules to yourself.

You put a lot of words in my mouth, so I'll just start from the top.

I don't need God. That's the first thing I feel I need to clarify. What has he ever done for anyone? Nothing. This is because he does not exist.

Secondly, what does sloth have to do with anything? I work my ass off for myself and my family. The only thing I don't work for is some random grand scheme that I don't know the purpose of. How do you help coax the scheme, if you do not know it?

Thirdly, I did not say only Atheists are the only people trying to change the world. That would be foolish. I only said that the afterlife is not the motivation that Atheists need to help other people. They do it out of the kindness of their hearts because they get satisfaction out of helping people.

Fourthly, I have no problem at all with unorganized religion. As soon as organization comes into play, it's a business that's trying to get your money. Plain and simple.

Fifthly, humility has nothing to do with any of my arguments. It has no impact on the truth to the grand question. The question being, "Is there a God or not?".

Sixth, don't prey for me. Waste your time if you want, but the only thing you are doing is offending the real god (if there is one) and offending me. Prayer is a complete waste of time if there is a grand scheme. God will only do what's in the plan anyways. Is he going to alter his grand plan because of a single prayer? You know how many prayers he gets in a day? (again, if he exists)

Seventh, how do you see the light one day if you're dead?

Eighth, I have no problem at all with anyone's religion, if it helps them. The problem I have is the lying that most organized religions have. Kids are brainwashed from birth into what they should believe. If adult people want to believe in fairy-tales, go ahead. But, children should be taught everything and learn to think for themselves.

"You listen to the Christian fundamentalist message, like as if it is the only thing" --No, I don't. I listen to every message from every major religion. It's all the same BS one way or another. They're all just trying to get money and power. Some individual people may want to actually help you, but why do they always need money?

I woke up a long time ago. I know evolution like the back of my hand. To me, it's obvious how life became so diverse. But, why would evolutionary theory conflict with the belief of God? You don't actually think that animals just popped up out of nowhere, do you? What about the dinosaurs? What about all the fossils? You think they were just put there to test our faith? Please, don't tell me that's what you think. God may have created the first life form. If he actually exists, that's ALL he did.

I know I was being an asshole to you earlier. Sorry if I made you feel bad, but sometimes it can be the only way to effectively get a message across.

The reason I want people to stop believing has nothing to do with the reason a religious person has for trying to convert people. I'm not trying to save individual people.

I want mankind to find the real truth. If the real truth is actually one that has a God, I'm all for it. But, if people believe that they already know the answer (which no one really does.) they won't feel the need to find the real truth.

Blah, blah, blah. There's almost always no point arguing with a person of faith because of the faith. To a creationist's point of view, we are just testing the faith. To argue one with faith, is to make it stronger. But, I hope that maybe someone realizes that any religion can't tell you all the answers. You have to find them out for yourself. And that, is the point of life.

Life is one long journey of learning. No one knows all the answers. But, you can try to find them out. I question everything I hear. That's why I am not religious. I consider myself Agnostic. There is a chance that anything can happen. But, at heart, I personally think that the chances for a God are not the greatest. That, is probably why I am actually an Atheist. But, I don't get hung up on labels. I believe, what I believe. Who knows, maybe I'll have some divine religious experience one day, but don't count on it.

And yeah, I must be high if I actually wrote this much shit for apparently no reason. ;)

Fun and games. The only reason to do anything.



This part of the argument can go on and on, so I am going to drop it and save us both time to reply to more meaningful parts of this argument.

Where you go god will be, dont you get it, your life's work is God's work. I am not inferring that you have sloth, I am saying that your work contributes to God's work. Until, I have a family myself I wont know how you feel, I can say though that almost everyone does work to contribute to humanity.

My apologies you seemed to me you might have been trying to infer, that ONLY atheist were trying to help. But, you are saying that the only reason why a religious person may help is because, they will be rewarded in heaven, thats a only half true, there are spiritual people (me included) that do things because, they want to. I said in another thread I believe in universal salvation, so heaven is for everyone regardless of what you do, my actions are not for scoring points for the afterlife but to do them b/c I want to.

I am not going to lie and pretend I don't agree with you because, that is true. At risk of being scolded for evangelism... Thats what the Gnostics were, less organized than the orthodoxy, this was in part why they were almost destroyed.

Now, your right, but humility also helps get our egotistical tendencies out of our way, so we arrive to the truth of a matter sooner rather than latter.

When people pray for external things, they seldom receive them, when people pray and act on their prayer they are received. Prayer to a Pagan is a form of magick, called Intent... It is the same way as well here. How will I be offending the true God by praying for you? God and reality are the same, reality always changes but not in principle, these changes do take place, you need a perceptive eye though however, I meant what I said, dont play the card with the egoistical: "Do you know who I am?! How dare you say I dont have a perceiving eye." You most likely dont have a perceiving eye for spiritual matters at least consciously, because, you obviously cannot see, the changes taking place right in front of you... Is it your fault? No its ego...

Its called metaphysics, a soul, a spirit... Whatever you name it, thats what see's the light, from a spiritual side you are not your body bu your soul or spirit. This body of everyones cannot perceive shit, it only perceives as much as its carnal nature lets it perceive.

They should, I myself did not like the movie "Jesus Camp" I found it brainwashing and manipulation, faith is not kept by way of brainwashing, its kept by mindfulness. But, that does not mean every religion is out to brainwash their kids, I will bring up my kids under my beliefs, part of my beliefs is to be an individual and not be peered pressured, but I am still a spiritual person.

The furthest any religion should go is just enough to support themselves, not using it for political control tactics or what not, but lets not forget, people who are secular can be as much power hungry and wealth hungry as a "religious" person.

You know it is funny I said this many times, "People are so busy trying to put there utopia on others, and they forget themselves, when doing that." Don't want anything from people, the only change we as humanity should do, is make sure we do not read religious/spiritual text so literally and act like fundamentalist. So busy imposing, expecting others to be someone else other than themselves, than they say "I am an individual." No there not, there busy trying to be something other than themselves. You hate religious evangelism, I am guessing? If so, this sentence applies to you: You had become what you most hated, an evangelizer but instead of religion it is of secular living.

Yet it would prove nonetheless that the metaphysical is real, if god made the first creature, so you couldn't disbelieve you would just be angry (as I find most people who are anti-religious to be, MOST NOT ALL). Personally, I side with evolution more than creationism anyway, but I can go either way and agree, if proved certain. You and only you can find the real truth, but that is only for you to know and have faith in.

----------------------

Now that I got my polemics and apologetics out of the way, I apologize if I came off to hard myself, but like you said, sometimes it can be the only way to make a point:

LoL, Ironically there are spiritual paths that dont offer the answers because, they tell you to "KNOW THYSELF." Thats where these answer lie, not so much of intellectual but intuition. "We are what we are..." To know the answers, I wonder though if that is an end or a mean...?

How did I lie. I scored a 140 on the Canadian IQ test. You know what the highest possible score was for this test in my age group? 140. I aced the test, it was easy. I then took another test created for people who beat the aforementioned test. I scored an estimated 186 IQ. When it came to the mathematical and spacial thinking, I got 100%. So fuck you. How is a Genius supposed to sound?
1. Name of the tests? I didn't know they made special IQ tests for people who "beat" a different IQ test, especially since IQ tests are measuring devices and nothing people "ace", but hey... maybe it's different in Canada?
2. If you're so smart, why do you fail at grammar? :p

1. Name of the tests? I didn't know they made special IQ tests for people who "beat" a different IQ test, especially since IQ tests are measuring devices and nothing people "ace", but hey... maybe it's different in Canada?
2. If you're so smart, why do you fail at grammar? :p

These. Especially the second one.

Another thing, 3 standard deviations above average is between 130 and 140.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/IQ_curve.svg

This part of the argument can go on and on, so I am going to drop it and save us both time to reply to more meaningful parts of this argument.

Where you go god will be, dont you get it, your life's work is God's work. I am not inferring that you have sloth, I am saying that your work contributes to God's work. Until, I have a family myself I wont know how you feel, I can say though that almost everyone does work to contribute to humanity.

My apologies you seemed to me you might have been trying to infer, that ONLY atheist were trying to help. But, you are saying that the only reason why a religious person may help is because, they will be rewarded in heaven, thats a only half true, there are spiritual people (me included) that do things because, they want to. I said in another thread I believe in universal salvation, so heaven is for everyone regardless of what you do, my actions are not for scoring points for the afterlife but to do them b/c I want to.

I am not going to lie and pretend I don't agree with you because, that is true. At risk of being scolded for evangelism... Thats what the Gnostics were, less organized than the orthodoxy, this was in part why they were almost destroyed.

Now, your right, but humility also helps get our egotistical tendencies out of our way, so we arrive to the truth of a matter sooner rather than latter.

When people pray for external things, they seldom receive them, when people pray and act on their prayer they are received. Prayer to a Pagan is a form of magick, called Intent... It is the same way as well here. How will I be offending the true God by praying for you? God and reality are the same, reality always changes but not in principle, these changes do take place, you need a perceptive eye though however, I meant what I said, dont play the card with the egoistical: "Do you know who I am?! How dare you say I dont have a perceiving eye." You most likely dont have a perceiving eye for spiritual matters at least consciously, because, you obviously cannot see, the changes taking place right in front of you... Is it your fault? No its ego...

Its called metaphysics, a soul, a spirit... Whatever you name it, thats what see's the light, from a spiritual side you are not your body bu your soul or spirit. This body of everyones cannot perceive shit, it only perceives as much as its carnal nature lets it perceive.

They should, I myself did not like the movie "Jesus Camp" I found it brainwashing and manipulation, faith is not kept by way of brainwashing, its kept by mindfulness. But, that does not mean every religion is out to brainwash their kids, I will bring up my kids under my beliefs, part of my beliefs is to be an individual and not be peered pressured, but I am still a spiritual person.

The furthest any religion should go is just enough to support themselves, not using it for political control tactics or what not, but lets not forget, people who are secular can be as much power hungry and wealth hungry as a "religious" person.

You know it is funny I said this many times, "People are so busy trying to put there utopia on others, and they forget themselves, when doing that." Don't want anything from people, the only change we as humanity should do, is make sure we do not read religious/spiritual text so literally and act like fundamentalist. So busy imposing, expecting others to be someone else other than themselves, than they say "I am an individual." No there not, there busy trying to be something other than themselves. You hate religious evangelism, I am guessing? If so, this sentence applies to you: You had become what you most hated, an evangelizer but instead of religion it is of secular living.

Yet it would prove nonetheless that the metaphysical is real, if god made the first creature, so you couldn't disbelieve you would just be angry (as I find most people who are anti-religious to be, MOST NOT ALL). Personally, I side with evolution more than creationism anyway, but I can go either way and agree, if proved certain. You and only you can find the real truth, but that is only for you to know and have faith in.

----------------------

Now that I got my polemics and apologetics out of the way, I apologize if I came off to hard myself, but like you said, sometimes it can be the only way to make a point:

LoL, Ironically there are spiritual paths that dont offer the answers because, they tell you to "KNOW THYSELF." Thats where these answer lie, not so much of intellectual but intuition. "We are what we are..." To know the answers, I wonder though if that is an end or a mean...?

To each his own man, to each his own. Anything can be debated forever because anything is possible. Especially, in response to the grand question.

Nothing can be completely answered for true and in some respects, the OP is right. We should realize that we don't know everything (Right now). But, if we come together and have a little bit of confidence and say, "We can achieve anything." We very well may be able to.

Religion and beliefs should never get in the way of the truth. That's all I pretty much believe in. Just because you believe in something, doesn't make it true. That goes for anyone and everyone.

Only read the first post, and only up to this point:

To be an atheist, you must blind yourself to the possibility that a divine being has left no tracks to follow.


Not true.

I don't believe in god, but I'll admit that it is possible

By definition, I am an atheist and you are wrong (read: idiot)

Refer to these two posts:

http://www.totse.com/community/showpost.php?p=9825059&postcount=19
http://www.totse.com/community/showpost.php?p=9825086&postcount=20

The only stance any sane person can make on the existence of a divine being(s), is that nobody knows. To claim you know, is impossible. You can only tell people of what you've been told or thought of, but not actually know for sure.

To be an atheist, you must blind yourself to the possibility that a divine being has left no tracks to follow. No trace means you can also not claim you do know their is a god.

I know there is going to be some religious whiners saying ,"I believe despite no proof," you are simply insane.

I leave you with this thought. Isn't it possible that even if there is a god, maybe the only thing we were supposed to know to make this earth heaven is to humbly admit our pathetic human limitations. We are all weak, and stuck in the same place, and our only end direction is to accept ourselves for our sinful nature, and work towards creating a world to the best of our abilities.

Shit, even I myself, with an intelligence level three deviation points higher than average, basically one of the most efficient brains in the world, I cannot answer every question, and I'm no better off than anyone else on this planet. We'll only get along when we stop fighting over theories and unite under our ability to never know such things.

Of course no one knows for sure. There is no such thing as absolute certainty in any affair. Even the old archetype statement of absolute certainty "I think" is full of impossible assertions: 1) It's I who is thinking, 2) That there even need be someone to do the thinking, 3) That there is an I, 4) That I know what thinking is--

You're not saying anything when you say "One cannot KNOW whether or not God exists." This is neither an argument for or against God or even for Agnosticism. The Atheist makes no claim as to whether he KNOWS that God doesn't exist, he recognizes the huge improbability of God's existence and determines to live his life as though God doesn't exist. They make the claim of God's nonexistence because his existence is exceedingly improbably, so much so that the positive statement "There is no God" is as safe as saying "I am typing on the computer right now." In neither case is there absolute certainty, but I say them because of the probability of their correctness, and because to refuse to make positive statements because there is no absolute certainty is ridiculous.

In my eyes, the only reason the existence of a god is even considered to be true is because so many people think so, based on nothing. It's like if you have ever said something as a joke and someone took it seriously and told alot of other people that it was true. Without you saying that it was a joke, it would be taken as truth and continue to be passed on as truth. Since the person who coined god is long gone now, there is no one to say it's all a lie, hence the current situation.

FLRX