I realize that this is just a movie, but watching it led me down a path I have not traveled for some time. The premise of the movie is that many people are trapped inside a grocery store while a mysterious mist covers the world outside. All who enter the mist are killed.

There is a woman in the store who just so happens to be suffering from the later extreme stages of Christianity. She is insane. She believes the mist is foretold in revelations. End of the world. God's punishment. Ultimately in this crisis situation NOT only is she useless, but becomes a deteriment to the rest of the survivors.

I have often thought, and this just revitalized that thought, that in a true crisis situation, theists are usually useless. Their infected minds will quickly turn to the supernatural, before realizing a natural solution to a problem.

While watching the movie a commonly used phrase came to mind "There are no atheists in foxholes".

I would like to state, for the record, I would rather be in a foxhole, under heavy fire, with people who realize that this is the only life they get, there is no paradise, there exists no eternal supernatural divine reward.

The flip side is being stuck in a foxhole, facing death, with people who believe that death is only the beginning to something much greater. That their demise, and everything else, is God's will.

Not to mention the fact, that when I think of that saying, I immediately picture an atheist firing her rifle at enemies, fighting with a mortal fervor, whilst a theist sucks his thumb in a corner and talks to an imaginary friend, dreaming of a paradise after death.

Yeah, people who believe they have no control over their life are downers.

So are stereotypes and pointless attacks disguised as some sort of never before realized epiphany.

So are stereotypes and pointless attacks disguised as some sort of never before realized epiphany.

Oh snap.

I agree with you though. If I was ever in this kind of situation (I haven't seen a movie, but any kind of panic situation) I would end up punching the token Christian in the face. Even if they are right (and who am I to say that they aren't) their ranting and raving and praying isn't going to help us when there are jobs that need to be done. Not to mention bitching about how it's the end of the world doesn't do to well for the morale of the group.

So are stereotypes and pointless attacks disguised as some sort of never before realized epiphany.

Had you read my post with both your fucking eyes open, you would realize that I did not proclaim any of my OP as an epiphany, and certainly not a never before realized one.

I realize that this is just a movie, but watching it led me down a path I have not traveled for some time.

I have often thought, and this just revitalized that thought, that in a true crisis situation, theists are usually useless.

Which part did you find stereotypical?

This is not an attack so much as it is an observation. I would also not describe the "no atheist in foxholes" argument, as pointless.

NOW......if you are done trolling.......

Good movie, great book. King rules!

Obbe, if you'd seen the character he's talking about - you'd probably be in agreement with BP on not wanting to be trapped with someone of that mentality in a crisis situation.

Obbe, if you'd seen the character he's talking about - you'd probably be in agreement with BP on not wanting to be trapped with someone of that mentality in a crisis situation.

Oh, I agree that I would not want to be trapped with someone so unstable.

What I disagree with, and find to be stereotypical was:

I have often thought, and this just revitalized that thought, that in a true crisis situation, theists are usually useless. Their infected minds will quickly turn to the supernatural, before realizing a natural solution to a problem.

... whilst a theist sucks his thumb in a corner and talks to an imaginary friend, dreaming of a paradise after death.

Pointless stereotypical attacks on theism as a whole.

I would like to state, for the record, I would rather be in a foxhole, under heavy fire, with people who realize that this is the only life they get, there is no paradise, there exists no eternal supernatural divine reward.

The flip side is being stuck in a foxhole, facing death, with people who believe that death is only the beginning to something much greater. That their demise, and everything else, is God's will.

Do all theists believe they have no control over the direction of their life? No.

Could an atheist be just as hopeless and unmotivated to do anything to save themselves or others, and simply accept that their end has come? As much as a theist who happens believes there is no point in trying to do anything? Yes.

Is it retarded to stereotype these characteristics to either atheists or theists? Very!

Stereotypes exist for a reason.

A theist (historically at least) WILL turn to a supernatural explanation, and possibly ignore a perfectly natural explanation, before an atheist will.

Are there theists out there who, in the face of an apparent apocolyptic event, would turn to a natural explanation first? Probably. Is this the rule? By no means.

Is there an atheist out there who, in the face of an apparent apocolyptic even, would turn to a supernatural explanation first? Probably. Is this the rule? By no means.

If you don't like what I say, just say that you do not like it. You find it stings personally. You will also find that it stings so, b/c of a ring of truth in it for you personally.

I KNOW in a grave situation, I would not want somebody who believes I am just an illusion by my side, for example. Useless I still name it.

A theist who believes fate is set in stone will do nothing.

An atheist who believes there is no hope will do nothing.



Not all theists would believe their fate is sealed, and would try.

Not all atheists would lose hope, and would try.



Hell, some theists may lose hope!

Some atheists may believe in fate!

I just said that...

Stereotypes exist for a reason.

Not saying it is 100%. Stereotypes are not a hard and fast rule. If they were they would cease being stereotypes, and just be called the way it fucking is.


I believe that it is more probable for a person who believes they will be rewarded greatly upon their death, to give up, than it is for a person who believes NOTHING awaits them after death.

Common sense on that one.

Also, it does not even have to be a life or death situation, just any situation that is unknown and threatening, a theist WILL find a supernatural "answer" before an atheist.

Since the supernatural is bullshit, they just became useless and possibly a detriment.

Source and statisics please.

I have often thought, and this just revitalized that thought, that in a true crisis situation, theists are usually useless. Their infected minds will quickly turn to the supernatural, before realizing a natural solution to a problem.


Any none fictional examples?

I like how she gets shot in the face.

For once, the book was not better than the film.

If you look at it in a morbid way, real life is like the mist. You dont really know what's going to happen next or what's next. you dont know if you're going to get stomped by a giant beast or mangled by a tentacle as it tries to slide under the garage door.

Any none fictional examples?

Sure....the inquisitions.

The theory that the salem witch trials were a result of a type of mold that grew on bread. This mold caused pain, and hallucinations.

NOW...you're theistic brethren decide that this must be the work of witchcraft. Indeed anything a theist fails to understand, is in varying degrees attributed to the divine. If it something you fail to understand AND fear, I would say it will most definitely be attributed to your God.

In the bible plagues, and most all disease it attributed to God. Got a severe disease? God hates you, and now so do we.

Theists throughout history have only exhacerbated real scientific problems with their delusional fantasies. They have been a detriment to all mankind when it comes to things such as: The cause of natural disasters and medical science.

Religions the world over should issue an apology to all humankind past, present, and future for it's foolishness.

Oh come on. For someone who claims theists are USUALLY useless in a crisis situation, you settle for examples over 300 years old. For your claim to hold true it has to hold true NOW.
How many crisis situations have you been in to see how theists act? Not many huh?
Just seen a couple of movies and you think this is true for them all. It's a dumb claim.

^ Do you think someone who believes he will be rewarded for letting X happen, would be more inclined to let X happen than someone who does not believe he will be rewarded?

^Do you believe all theists believe they will be rewarded for doing anything?

Oh come on. For someone who claims theists are USUALLY useless in a crisis situation, you settle for examples over 300 years old. For your claim to hold true it has to hold true NOW.
How many crisis situations have you been in to see how theists act? Not many huh?
Just seen a couple of movies and you think this is true for them all. It's a dumb claim.

The movie provided an example, I had known of the uselessness of Christians in a crisis situation prior to seeing that movie. More recent examples?

Let's take a trip to parts of Africa where witch trials are still happening in the name of your God. Or let's enjoy a stroll through war-torn Iraq and ask the common folks if God is punishing them with this war. Let's head down to Arkansas state prison and talk with the West Memphis Three, and see what their opinions are on theistic insanity.

NOW, that should not matter b/c the same fuck sticks who thought a natural bread mold toxicity in a person was demonic possesion brought on by witchcraft, GOT THAT notion from the EXACT SAME book most Christians read today.

What I am saying is that IF christians use the same book today for thier idea of God and man's place in his realm, as they did three hundred years ago, why would it not hold true, today?

Let's take a trip to parts of Africa where witch trials are still happening in the name of your God. Or let's enjoy a stroll through war-torn Iraq and ask the common folks if God is punishing them with this war. Let's head down to Arkansas state prison and talk with the West Memphis Three, and see what their opinions are on theistic insanity.

NOW, that should not matter b/c the same fuck sticks who thought a natural bread mold toxicity in a person was demonic possesion brought on by witchcraft, GOT THAT notion from the EXACT SAME book most Christians read today.

This seems to be a problem which stems from organized religion and "truth".

Not theism.

This seems to be a problem which stems from organized religion and "truth".

Not theism.

Theism: The belief that gods or deities exist and interact with the universe.

The problem with organized religion isn't the organized part, it is the religious part.

You see it as not a problem of theistic belief, and perhaps your right. But you do recognize the problem. If your beliefs were as widespread as say Christianity, I am sure I would have numerous cases to dangle in front of you that would make you see the problem there as well.

If your beliefs were as widespread as say Christianity, I am sure I would have numerous cases to dangle in front of you that would make you see the problem there as well.

No, I just see a different problem. The problem I see is not believing in God or not.

The problem is that the people involved in the situations described all believe their religion is knowledge. The problem is also in the spreading of beliefs as truths, the creation of these vast organized religions. Which, over time, become much more vulnerable to corruption and manipulation then an individuals personal beliefs ever could.

No, I just see a different problem. The problem I see is not believing in God.

The problem is that the people involved in the situations described all believe their religion is knowledge. The problem is also in the spreading of beliefs as truths, the creation of these vast organized religions. Which, over time, become much more vulnerable to corruption and manipulation then an individuals personal beliefs ever could.


But you don't have any individual PERSONAL beliefs Obbe.

For some reason you seem compelled to make your beliefs PUBLIC.

Why is that?

You don't get to call them personal anymore. They are your public beliefs. If you had kept your fortune cookie nonsense personal, I may have a measure of respect for what you say.

Why is that?

Because this is a message board, and people are willing to discuss them with me. When have I ever stated that my beliefs are fact?

I don't start wars over my beliefs.

You don't get to call them personal anymore. They are your public beliefs. If you had kept your fortune cookie nonsense personal, I may have a measure of respect for what you say.

I doubt it, because then what would I ever had said?

Heres a thought: try to keep your mind off of me, if thats possible, and try to respond to what I said about the problem.

Heres a thought: try to keep your mind off of me, if thats possible, and try to respond to what I said about the problem.

Obbe, I have been over your "philosophy" many times. How can you even suggest to KNOW what the problem is? You certainly do not KNOW a solution, because the only thing you do KNOW is that you KNOW jack shit.

So you don't even KNOW if there is a problem there DO YOU?

How can you even suggest to KNOW what the problem is?

I haven't suggested that. You have, just now.

And yet again, you avoid the topic and continue to talk about me.

I'm flattered, Brokeback, but lets stay on topic.

I haven't suggested that. You have, just now.

And yet again, you avoid the topic and continue to talk about me.

I'm flattered, Brokeback, but lets stay on topic.

What fucking topic?

The fact that you suggest the problem is that these religious types pass off their beliefs as knowledge?

What of it?

You are just trying to set up a situation so you can say ALL THAT CAN BE KNOWN IS I AM. Clearly I am on topic, have been on fucking topic.

SO.....before you accuse these religious people of passing off bullshit for truth (based on your own philosophy of hte only truth).......I would like to know how you can even KNOW what the problem is.

TRY TO FUCKING KEEP UP WITH YOUR OWN NONSENSE.

What fucking topic?

The topic is in this post, by me:

No, I just see a different problem. The problem I see is not believing in God.

The problem is that the people involved in the situations described all believe their religion is knowledge. The problem is also in the spreading of beliefs as truths, the creation of these vast organized religions. Which, over time, become much more vulnerable to corruption and manipulation then an individuals personal beliefs ever could.

After posting that, you never addressed it. Just felt compelled to bring up my beliefs.

The fact that you suggest the problem is that these religious types pass off their beliefs as knowledge?

What of it?

Theists do not need to spread their beliefs, organize, or convince others (or themselves) that their beliefs are truth.

So theists are not the real root of the problem you address in this thread.

Religions are.

You are just trying to set up a situation so you can say ALL THAT CAN BE KNOWN IS I AM. Clearly I am on topic, have been on fucking topic.

Actually, you decided to go off topic and bring up my beliefs. I never did.

Actually, you decided to go off topic and bring up my beliefs. I never did.

Right, okay.

Many people put forth beliefs that do not cause problems religious beliefs are prone to.

The fact that you suggest the problem is that these religious types pass off their beliefs as knowledge?

What makes you say what they are saying isn't true or qualifying as knowledge?

Wait for it......

The fact that you suggest the problem is that these religious types pass off their beliefs as knowledge?

Its no fact. But I believe thats what the root of the problem would be.

What makes you say what they are saying isn't true or qualifying as knowledge?

Do you have a reason to believe otherwise?



Isn't baiting considered trolling, BP?

I haven't suggested that. You have, just now.

And yet again, you avoid the topic and continue to talk about me.

I'm flattered, Brokeback, but lets stay on topic.

I lol'd hard :D

Its no fact. But I believe thats what the root of the problem would be.

Do you have a reason to believe otherwise?

GODAMN you fucking moron. IF YOU believe that to be the root of the problem, how is it baiting to ask WHY YOU BELIEVE THAT.

Can you grasp that?

You say X is the root of the problem. I ASK HOW YOU CAN COME TO THAT CONCLUSION. That is a valid question to your assertion. So answer it or admit you cannot answer it with anything valid.

You have refused to answer that simple fucking question for nearly two pages now, and in the same breath asserted that I was dodging.

I lol'd hard :D

You are obviously unaware of the situation as well. Read the above post as it may help you sort it out.

You say X is the root of the problem. I ASK HOW YOU CAN COME TO THAT CONCLUSION. That is a valid question to your assertion.

The situations provided (... parts of Africa where witch trials are still happening in the name of your God ... war-torn Iraq and ask the common folks if God is punishing them with this war ... Arkansas state prison and talk with the West Memphis Three ... the inquisitions ...) all would involve people believing that their beliefs are truth and others are wrong.

Theists do not need to need to believe that. They do not have to be assholes. So I do not believe that the root of such a problem would be theism, I believe it would be religion.

So answer it or admit you cannot answer it with anything valid.

I cannot know any valid answer, I cannot know the situation either ... as you want me to say.

I never said I could.

... in the same breath asserted that I was dodging.

By abandoning the topic and proceeding to blather on about me and my beliefs, it certainly seemed like you were.

How is it possible for a theist not to believe that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong?

I mean, by definition, a theist believes in a god, or gods, right? God or gods being infallible deities, etc. If your god is the right one, wouldn't it by nature contradict with other ones?

By the way, when my mother got a brain tumor, the rest of my family prayed, I found a doctor who was experienced enough in the field to remove it without crippling her. Is that a practical enough example for you?

I'm not going to discuss the religious aspect of the film. But the ending was god-damned awesome.

He finally ended it all, put his family and friends out of their approaching misery, and then......help arrives, and all is well; except for the man who just killed his family -_-

Sure....the inquisitions.

The theory that the salem witch trials were a result of a type of mold that grew on bread. This mold caused pain, and hallucinations.

NOW...you're theistic brethren decide that this must be the work of witchcraft. Indeed anything a theist fails to understand, is in varying degrees attributed to the divine. If it something you fail to understand AND fear, I would say it will most definitely be attributed to your God.

In the bible plagues, and most all disease it attributed to God. Got a severe disease? God hates you, and now so do we.

Theists throughout history have only exhacerbated real scientific problems with their delusional fantasies. They have been a detriment to all mankind when it comes to things such as: The cause of natural disasters and medical science.

Religions the world over should issue an apology to all humankind past, present, and future for it's foolishness.


If you came here bashing religions you better fucking start bashing other religions too you dumbfuck, now bad mouth Buddhism, hinduism, zoroastrianism and the satanist church please. You came here denouncing all religion as stupid, now dont be yourself stupid and stick only to christianity/catholicism.

How is it possible for a theist not to believe that anyone who disagrees with them is wrong?

By accepting that they cannot know.

I have often thought, and this just revitalized that thought, that in a true crisis situation, theists are usually useless. Their infected minds will quickly turn to the supernatural, before realizing a natural solution to a problem.

This ridiculous notion is utterly refuted by the hundreds of millions of theists who have lived successful lives as doctors, nurses, researchers, engineers, lawyers, judges, detectives and hundreds of other occupations that involve looking for natural solutions to problems. In fact, a great many of the advances in the fields of meteorology and medicine (which you specifically listed as being held back by theists) have been made by theists.

The thin list of events that you parade as proof of your assertions does not even come close to outbalancing the above fact, as you made the assertion that a majority of theists are like that, and your examples only deal with maybe a few thousand people.

In fact, since there are many events throughout history that took very similar forms to the salem witch trials, the inquisition etc... and which occured outside of the context of religion, then it seems probable that the cause of such events lies in some wider force effecting humanity and it is shortsighted to place the blame on theism. Have you never heard of McCarthyism? What about Stalin's great purge? Did you know that around the time of the wars, it was not unheard of for universities to turn away massively important scholars if they had previously published in German? What about the imprisonment of innocent Japanese Americans?

No doubt you will make a bombastic response, but I have no intention of going back and forth with an extremist, so don't expect a reply.

By accepting that they cannot know.

Then they aren't theists.


If you came here bashing religions you better fucking start bashing other religions too you dumbfuck, now bad mouth Buddhism, hinduism, zoroastrianism and the satanist church please. You came here denouncing all religion as stupid, now dont be yourself stupid and stick only to christianity/catholicism.

Aw, did someone learn some other names of different religions? Bonus points if you can tell me what zoroastrianism even teaches.

Buddhism isn't a religion.
Hinduism contributes the the conflict currently taking place in Kashmir, along with Islam.
Zoroastrianism did the best thing any religion can do, it died.
``Satanism'' is just plain stupid and aimed directly at financially exploiting 14 year old boys. Leveyan Satanism doesn't worship a deity.Does that do it for you?

No doubt you will make a bombastic response, but I have no intention of going back and forth with an extremist, so don't expect a reply.

I won't be holding my fucking breath waiting for a reply.

I don't mean, I might burn the muffins crisis, I mean a truly awesome crisis situation in which death could be immenent and there is no readily apparent natural explanation for what is going on.

Like simple bread mold causing hallucinations to a population of people unaware of microrganisms.

Or plagues carried by fleas on rats.

Yes theists today can be nurses, and doctors, and even scientists, but if any of them actually EVER use their faith (supernatural bullshit) BEFORE using the natural reality of a situation, it could cost someone their life. I would say there faith is most likely strained at best, except of course for christian "scientists", but then they are really only fiction writers trying to sell faith affirming apologetics to a flock of sheeple.

Take a TRULY devout doctor, or scientist, who listens for one hour each sunday for the past thirty years about hell, zombies, sin, evil etc. (and believes it) and place them in a situation where no natural explanation is readily available, and the consequences of the situation are dire, and I will show you a pathetic shell of a human who pleads with their imagination for help.

If you came here bashing religions you better fucking start bashing other religions too you dumbfuck, now bad mouth Buddhism, hinduism, zoroastrianism and the satanist church please. You came here denouncing all religion as stupid, now dont be yourself stupid and stick only to christianity/catholicism.

First and foremost...........Go fuck yourself.

Secondly, I will denounce who the fuck ever I want, without consideration of your demands or your pathetic childish attempts at goading me otherwise. I have spoken on occasion about other religions, but I know more (and probably more than you about Christianity than I do the other religions.

I think of all religions it is Christianity I despise most, b/c I live in a country dominated by these nutjobs. If I lived elsewhere, I am sure I would find their social control methods equally appalling, and better learn them, but I do not.

NOW, If you have any further questions on this matter I will revert you back to the first sentence of this post. :)