I was looking around on a Christian website, reading their "reasons" for certain beliefs when I came across accupuncture and "is it acceptable?"

http://www.gotquestions.org/acupuncture-Christian.html

Needless to say, people like this are why I hate associating with other Christians. Looking around on that site for a while makes me sick.

Well, they believe the right thing for the wrong reasons.

Well, they believe the right thing for the wrong reasons.

Some of these things are insane though. It's like they chose to purposefully go over the edge with some things.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-gnosticism.html

Like the above web page they have a very limited understanding of what they speak about, there fundamentalist Christians who make this website and they want to keep the Christians under the influence of strict biblical interpretation. I used to visit that website but I no longer do since I am not a fundamentalist anymore.

So, take what people say with a grain of salt on that website, Hell they even have a mini banner on one of those pages that says "How can God forgive you?" or "How can you seek forgiveness from God?" There website is largely BS. A lot of time and energy invested in fundamentalism.

As for being ticked off and annoyed don't be, there own ignorance and arrogance will destroy them, just laugh at how they think they know so much when they know very little, it would be more funnier if people were not actually believing the things they spew out.

I just pray that people are looking to them as a second opinion so to speak and not as their primary opinion, I believe JC said seek and you will find, when he said that I believe he meant to look within for the answers and not looking outside by means of strict biblical interpretation.

Some of these things are insane though. It's like they chose to purposefully go over the edge with some things.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm an atheist. I believe pretty much all their claims are utter nonsense.

However, acupuncture is bullshit. So they believe the right thing (people shouldn't participate in acupuncture) for the wrong reasons (ridiculous Christian dogmatism).

Of course they're serious, they're brainwashed theists.

If some fundies actually accept acupuncture--which has a proven track record--it just goes to show that even a blind pig finds an acorn sometimes.

If some fundies actually accept acupuncture--which has a proven track record--it just goes to show that even a blind pig finds an acorn sometimes.

If by "proven track record" you mean "has failed miserably in nearly all studies examining its efficacy" and by acorns you mean "horse shit", then I agree.

Sorry but you can't say it has a proven track record of anything - except maybe failure- when studies have shown that purposely incorrect acupuncture (i.e. "acupuncture" where the practitioner does it incorrect on purpose for the sake of the study) has nearly the same exact "success" rate as the real deal.

I just googled "acupuncture studies," got `1,550,000 results.

In your spare time, you might check out the first five or six. You might learn something.

There is scientific agreement that an evidence-based medicine (EBM) framework should be used to assess health outcomes and that systematic reviews with strict protocols are essential. Organisations such as the Cochrane Collaboration and Bandolier publish such reviews.

The development of the evidence base for acupuncture was summarized in a review by researcher Edzard Ernst and colleagues in 2007. They compared systematic reviews conducted (with similar methodology) in 2000 and 2005:

The effectiveness of acupuncture remains a controversial issue. ... The results indicate that the evidence base has increased for 13 of the 26 conditions included in this comparison. For 7 indications it has become more positive (i.e. favoring acupuncture) and for 6 it had changed in the opposite direction. It is concluded, that acupuncture research is active. The emerging clinical evidence seems to imply that acupuncture is effective for some but not all conditions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture#Evidence-based_medicine

I don't think you should or can make a blanket claim as to the effectiveness of accupunture.

Which conditions were being treated by acupunture that you say were proven to be a load of shit, based on the fact that the treaters purposefully did it wrong? Did they try it on every single procedure acupunture is said to have results for? Did they try it on the ones the EBM framework has already said acupunture appears ineffective?

Let's lift that burden of yours a bit higher, shall we?

Huh? Did I say there weren't acupuncture studies? I know that there are acupuncture studies, which is why I know how it has failed in nearly all of them when compared to a placebo.

But hey, lets not dismiss your great research contribution (i.e. hastily using Google). Let's give you the benefit of the doubt and actually read some of the links. Hey, maybe I will learn something! Let's take this one, which I found in the first five or six" you suggested I read...

http://www.acupuncturetoday.com/mpacms/at/article.php?id=28010

The amazingly neutral source ( :rolleyes: ) aside, the article talks about preliminary results from an on going study (ongoing at that time, over 5 years ago). Let's see the actual results at the end of the study (http://archinte.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/167/17/1892), shall we?

" At 6 months, response rate was 47.6% in the verum acupuncture group, 44.2% in the sham acupuncture group, and 27.4% in the conventional therapy group. Differences among groups were as follows: verum vs sham, 3.4% (95% confidence interval, –3.7% to 10.3%; P = .39); verum vs conventional therapy, 20.2% (95% confidence interval, 13.4% to 26.7%; P < .001); and sham vs conventional therapy, 16.8% (95% confidence interval, 10.1% to 23.4%; P < .001."

In other words, at the end of the study, the 'sham acupuncture' (i.e. purposely sticking needles in the patients bodies in the incorrect places, without going deep enough, and without manipulating the area, which are all necessary for "real" acupuncture) performed nearly as well as the real thing! That's right: bullshit is virtually just as effective as "real" acupuncture!

The only saving grace for acupuncture in this study might be that just causing small amounts of pain might release endorphins that help relieve pain; except this has little to say about this regard, and if that were the case it could be said of many other things, like self mutilation.

You can find a thorough examination of the study here:

http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php?p=14


So yes, Arms, I did learn something; I must thank you. I've learned how quickly people buy into bullshit and how little critical thinking goes on. What did you learn?

EDIT: This was aimed ath AM but I guess it applies to BP as well.

There is scientific agreement that an evidence-based medicine (EBM) framework should be used to assess health outcomes and that systematic reviews with strict protocols are essential. Organisations such as the Cochrane Collaboration and Bandolier publish such reviews.

The development of the evidence base for acupuncture was summarized in a review by researcher Edzard Ernst and colleagues in 2007. They compared systematic reviews conducted (with similar methodology) in 2000 and 2005:

The effectiveness of acupuncture remains a controversial issue. ... The results indicate that the evidence base has increased for 13 of the 26 conditions included in this comparison. For 7 indications it has become more positive (i.e. favoring acupuncture) and for 6 it had changed in the opposite direction. It is concluded, that acupuncture research is active. The emerging clinical evidence seems to imply that acupuncture is effective for some but not all conditions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acupuncture#Evidence-based_medicine

I don't think you should or can make a blanket claim as to the effectiveness of accupunture.

Which conditions were being treated by acupunture that you say were proven to be a load of shit, based on the fact that the treaters purposefully did it wrong? Did they try it on every single procedure acupunture is said to have results for? Did they try it on the ones the EBM framework has already said acupunture appears ineffective?

Let's lift that burden of yours a bit higher, shall we?

Didn't want you to miss this.

I read your post afterwards. My reply to AM can apply to yours.

The claim that "The emerging clinical evidence seems to imply that acupuncture is effective for some but not all conditions" is put into doubt by the very discussion of the study I'm referring to.

Moreover, they are talking about acupuncture in general - which includes both the claims of traditional Chinese medicine (i.e. Chi, energy lines, pressure points in the body where "bad" energy builds up, etc.) and just physiological responses the body might have to sticking pricking people with needles (e.g. releasing endorphins).

The original article - and I'm guessing AM - are speaking of the traditional, Chinese, sense, which the study I discuss refutes.

I can concede that I should have specified that I was talking about acupuncture in its Chinese origins; I thought that people would guess that given the context of the article given by the OP.

Yeah, they're serious. Unfortunately.

They are just assholes. I am not speaking of an entire group of people, but those holier-than-thou motherfuckers make me sick.

They speak HATRED, not love. The hilarious thing is, that if their god is real, he does not condone their actions at all!

The world's false religions teach that there are "many paths to God." This is the ultimate lie. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me" (John 14:6 King James Version). The word "by" in this verse is the Greek word "dia" and it means through. None of the counterfeit religions can bring us into harmony with God. The only way is through the LORD Jesus Christ.

They are just assholes. I am not speaking of an entire group of people, but those holier-than-thou motherfuckers make me sick.

They speak HATRED, not love. The hilarious thing is, that if their god is real, he does not condone their actions at all!

Or he's just the world's biggest hypocrite.

No, they just wanted to make you laugh.

I just googled "acupuncture studies," got `1,550,000 results.

In your spare time, you might check out the first five or six. You might learn something.

in your spare time, you might want to learn how to do actual research. you might learn something.

They are just assholes. I am not speaking of an entire group of people, but those holier-than-thou motherfuckers make me sick.

They speak HATRED, not love. The hilarious thing is, that if their god is real, he does not condone their actions at all!

Of course the fundamentalist is an ass, they seem to pride themselves on the fact they know the Bible front to back. They do, the literal interpretation that is, they don't know the metaphorical and allegorical meanings though. They worship a dead man stuck in time and space.

Holier-Than-Thou groups are the fundamentalist, no bias, the fundamentalist prides themselves on thinking they know Christ message that everyone else just does not understand.

They speak both, Hate and Love, there two faced Carnies. They belong on Comedy Central NOT preaching to a crowd of people, IMO evangelizing by way of fundamentalism is wrong as well. Jesus Christ said that the First will become last and last will become first, they think there first runner up but I tell you the truth they are the last runner, hell they might even be fired before they can get up at bat.

They evangelize, its brainwashing and it is not the Way of Christ. They are the wolf in sheep's clothing.

godfather, you've done a whole lot of evangelizing in here yourself, regarding Gnosticism. How is it different? You've encouraged people to look into their own belief systems and have educated them on yours, insinuating that Gnosticism is older, wiser and more applicable than mainstream Christianity. How is that not evangelizing on your behalf, and why don't you count yourself among the evangelists?

They are just assholes. I am not speaking of an entire group of people, but those holier-than-thou motherfuckers make me sick.

They speak HATRED, not love. The hilarious thing is, that if their god is real, he does not condone their actions at all!

If their god is real, he's committed innumerable acts of genocide, torture, murder, and thousands of other atrocities that I can't think of at the moment, but would be utterly clear going through its holy book. Their god is homophobic, xenophobic, misogynistic, and lethally so.

If their god exists, then they're the only ones with the balls to speak its word truly and completely, without shame. They aren't extremists, they're just purists.

godfather, you've done a whole lot of evangelizing in here yourself, regarding Gnosticism. How is it different? You've encouraged people to look into their own belief systems and have educated them on yours, insinuating that Gnosticism is older, wiser and more applicable than mainstream Christianity. How is that not evangelizing on your behalf, and why don't you count yourself among the evangelists?

Im not going to lie, I have done a whole lot of evangelizing with my religion. To be brutually honest, it comes from someting within me that does it:

1) I feel that my religion is terribly misunderstood (if you listen to the polemics, misrepresentations) by people.
2) I have talked about this problem with other Gnostics saying that I have this insatiable need to spread the word of the Gnostics, they have often told me, those who like the message will come to it on there own.
3) I am trying to find a balance between my arguments and relation to gnosticism. Im not trying to evangelize (not consciously at least) but trying to test my stance on the issues presented by the members of this forum.

I wouldn't count myself as an evangelist because, horrible images come to mind, like that movie "Jesus Camp" or those Westboro Baptist Church haters's. I am not implying that "If you dont come to gnosticism your ignorant and you will be destroyed!" Mostly impart because, Gnosticism offers a message of universal salvation, I have no reason to evangelize you or anyone else, you will come to God in each their own way.

I just googled "acupuncture studies," got `1,550,000 results.


ArmsMerchant; I've seen you use this argument more than once. While I'm not as outright skeptical about the effects of acupuncture as Rust - and I can see some psychological/stress-reducing benefit in it as a placebo... how many results something turns up on a google search is not an applicable point for a number of reasons, especially in this case.

I neither agree or disagree with Rust about acupuncture due to lack of understanding about the topic on my own part, but he's made some good points.



Anyway I'm pretty familiar with gotquestions due to it being a favourite of my Christian friend; and us having discussiong revolving around it. Personally I detest their values and beliefs.. but yeah whatever