that ye be not judged." This is, I think, one of the more important sound bites from the Bible, and that is thoroughly misunderstood. Since I often mention the importance of being non-judgemental (and evidently do a lousy job of it, going by my failure to get the point across clearly), I thought I'd take another shot at it, while I still have 40 minutes left on the public comp I'm on. The subject is more complex than it may seem.

For openers, many people seem to confuse observation and description, with judgement. If I observe my neighbor beating his dog and hear the dog whining, I may well describe his act as cruel, inhumane and observe that the dog is in pain. This says nothing about the man as a person. I may observe someone driving fast and/or recklessly, and think "Wow, what a lousy driver"--again, this is observation/description of behavior and says nothing about the individual per se. Thing is, no matter how strongly we may disapprove of the actions of another, we all act in ways that are appropriate to us at the time.

Maybe the dog-beater thinks he is traing the dog to be a successful fighter. Maybe the speedy driver has a woman in the back seat giving birth. Whatever. It is not my place to judge.

The key distinction here is that judgement is always a VALUE judgement--you evaluate things as good or bad, right or wrong. (In the Highest Reality, there is no such thing as good or bad, but that is s subject for another and still more profound thread.)

Now many people see this as a non-issue. Christians may think, so what--God jusges me, why should I not judge others? For one thing, that notion is totally illogical given the premise that God manifests unconditional love and just plain incorrect . (One may quibble that I am blending fact with opinion here.) However, if there is one thing all observant Christians agree on, it is that there will be a Final Judgement--it is right there in the Apostle's Creed.

Non-Christians may (and have!)object to the whole non-judgemental thing (and the corrolary that we are All One, that no one is better or worse than anyone else),saying that some people are in fact observably better than others, and they often add--and sometimes quite vehemently--that they are better than many other people, and pointing out--quite correctly--that we are all distinct entities.

That we are--and bear with me on the digression here--but think of your body for a moment. It is composed of around 100 trillion cells--they all have different capabilities, different sizes, and are in fat, observably differentiated. However, they are part of the same wonderful and magnificent whole--YOU. (or me. Or Aunt Sally.) Would anyone be foolish enough to aver that, say, a brain cell is "better" than a heart cell, or that a liver cell is more important than a lung cvell? They are all needed. (Although a radical militant feminist might say that the ovum reigns supreme, and I would not argue with her--at least not face to face. I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid.)

Okay, back to the judgement thing--and the point of this is finally coming into view here. As Deepak Chopra says, when you are constantly evaluating, classifying, labeling, analyzing, you create a lot of turbulence in your internal dialogue. This turbulence constricts the flow of energy between you and the field of pure potentiality. (This field of pure potentiality is also known as the Force, Atman, Buddha, Allah, the Essential Self and --as members of my tribe put it -- the Master of Breath.) You literally squeeze ther gap between thoguhts. Now that gap is your connection to the field of pure potentiality. It is that state of pure awareness, that silent space betwen thoughts, that inner stillness the connects you to true power. And when you squeeze the gap, you squeeze your own connection to the field of pure potentiality and infinite creativity.

To put it another way, when you judge your neighbor instead of loving him as you love yourself, you turn your back on God.

Thanks, you don't know how much I enjoy your teaching of "new age" philosophy. Would you consider doing a thread on what you mean by acceptance/accepting everything?

Nice topic. I think it would be interesting to add that there are more bacteria, or 'outsider' in your body then there are 'you' cells. And there are cells which are actually your mom.

If I wanted to be a dick this is the point where I'd say something like...

"Hey, nice to know that if I decide to rape your mother, wife, sister or someone that you dearly love, you won't judge me for it. After all, I felt I needed the sex, right?"

What this boils down to is that when you do something that is harmful to another, you should damn well expect that people are going to judge you for it. Speeding in a car because your wife is pregnant? Great, you're endangering not only your life and hers for the convenience of a hospital but other drivers as well. Decided to beat your dog because it would make it a great fighter? Yeah, torture your animal because it's quicker and more convenient than real training.

You can justify anything, but that doesn't make it just. In a civilization that is built on order and based on concepts of right and wrong, judgement has a place.

Yup, judgment is convenient insanity. It's much too fun, of course nothing could be more fun than infinity. Then again there's always the uncertainty of everything...

If I wanted to be a dick this is the point where I'd say something like...

"Hey, nice to know that if I decide to rape your mother, wife, sister or someone that you dearly love, you won't judge me for it. After all, I felt I needed the sex, right?"

.

Someone laid a hand on my wife, I probably wouldn't judge him--kill the fucker, maybe, but not judge him.

Thanks, you don't know how much I enjoy your teaching of "new age" philosophy. Would you consider doing a thread on what you mean by acceptance/accepting everything?

Okay, I'm on it.

Someone laid a hand on my wife, I probably wouldn't judge him--kill the fucker, maybe, but not judge him.

Unless you're totally lacking in self-control, there is a point at which you've judged that the person is no longer worthy of life and decided to act upon it. Not all judgements are entirely concious and I don't think that all are necessarily made at the time of a trigger event - some are an ingrained and part of a predetermined thought process. In other words, you've pre-judged them.

I agree, judgement is a much needed function both individualy and as a society.

There is a difference in religions between Judging someone and being Discerning...

Judgemental should for our day and age represent modern words such as: Prejudice, Bias, Non-Compassion

While discerning is more a word we should choose when we say we trying to figure out between right and wrong.

Personally, I find that Right and Wrong are of no concern it belongs in the eye of the beholder. Right and Wrong should not be polarize but should be looked upon as varying degrees of actions to take in response to something.

For Example:
My Kids are being annoying I continuously tell them to stop but they don't listen, I can:

- (+10) Do something with them that is constructive and fun

- (+5) Give them something to do that is interesting

- (0) Do nothing

- (-5) Put Them in Time Outs

- (-10) Slap Them Silly

Obviously the negative is a "wrong" or unwise response; while the positive is a "right" or more wise response. They vary in degrees and which become more useful in trying to understand how to see that a moral action is not some polarized "Good V. Bad" but rather as a degree of responses you could take. Hell sometimes the only way to get a kids attention is with a slap but if you do it again and again the child grows numb to it and you are left screwed because, you used your most "powerful" tool to discipline your child(ren). This of course is an example but it demonstrates what I am trying to say.

Just because, SOCIETY values the "right V. wrong" paradigm, does not me you have to. You as an INDIVIDUAL can value mindfulness and Insight into actions to know what is a better path to take as to a lower path to take. Most religious fundamentalist believe (speaking solely as a christian) that the fall brought about a moral incompetence, well if we are supposedly morally incapable than we should try new ways to see how our actions can help or hurt one another.

On a tangential note, in the book "The Universe in a Single Atom," the Dali Lama talks about the Tibetan Buddhist philosophy of "emptiness" (probably a poor term for it), which holds that nothing exists wholly unto itself. That is to say, you cannot isolate a specific entity, because by doing so, you would have to deny that it can influence other entities. Therefore, since we can easily observe any myriad of interactions in this world, we must conclude that everything is interconnected; it is all a manifestation of a mass existence. It jives quite well with your whole judgment idea. Judge not...because you're really just judging yourself.

Look into it if you're interested.

On a tangential note, in the book "The Universe in a Single Atom," the Dali Lama talks about the Tibetan Buddhist philosophy of "emptiness" (probably a poor term for it), which holds that nothing exists wholly unto itself. That is to say, you cannot isolate a specific entity, because by doing so, you would have to deny that it can influence other entities. Therefore, since we can easily observe any myriad of interactions in this world, we must conclude that everything is interconnected; it is all a manifestation of a mass existence. It jives quite well with your whole judgment idea. Judge not...because you're really just judging yourself.

Look into it if you're interested.

I feel like I'm missing something here, because it makes no exceptions whatsoever. This seems to suggest that it since everyone else is interconnected with you, you can't judge them for anything... because you're judging yourself. Even if they commit murder or any other number of crimes that you haven't and never will.

Wtf?

^We CAN judge others, if we choose--free will is absolute, after all--the question is, why?

Dick Sutphen, one of the founders of much of New Age thought, said "Your opinion of me is none of my business."

In other words, if you want to judge me, fine, go ahead--it affects me not. But it affects you, profoundly and harmfully.

I recall you calling me "unevolved". :)
Enjoy the detrimental effects of your arrogance, ArmsMerchant.

^We CAN judge others, if we choose--free will is absolute, after all--the question is, why?

Dick Sutphen, one of the founders of much of New Age thought, said "Your opinion of me is none of my business."

In other words, if you want to judge me, fine, go ahead--it affects me not. But it affects you, profoundly and harmfully.

I'm not sure how you got me judging you from this conversation. I happen to think you're a pretty cool dude, actually. Your views on not judging people simply don't make any sense to me.

After all, I think it affects me far more profoundly and harmfully not to judge some murdering scumbag than to do so. After all, wouldn't it level spiritual havoc on you to turn a blind eye to rape? You've already made clear your feelings about someone doing that to your wife. That's clearly deeply-seeded judgement against rape. I am in completely in agreement with you that rape is terribly wrong and have no problem with judging someone for it - the question is, why the double standard?

Morality is based on judgement, whether religious or not.

I recall you calling me "unevolved". :)
Enjoy the detrimental effects of your arrogance, ArmsMerchant.

You seem to keep missing the point, so I will try--once more--to drive my point home through the thick fog of your incomprehension--there is a world of difference between making an observation--describing what one perceives--and making a value judgement.

It is obvious from your posts that you are NOT, in fact a very highly spiritually evolved person--so what? Neither was I at your age. Calm down and grow up.

You are neither better nor worse than anyone else. We are All One.

I'm better than you because I'm not a pedophile, poor, nor do I have a invalid wife.

Ah, a key component of acceptance versus approval. :)

Good thread, AM.

You seem to keep missing the point, so I will try--once more--to drive my point home through the thick fog of your incomprehension--there is a world of difference between making an observation--describing what one perceives--and making a value judgement.

It is obvious from your posts that you are NOT, in fact a very highly spiritually evolved person--so what? Neither was I at your age. Calm down and grow up.

You are neither better nor worse than anyone else. We are All One.

You keep missing my point.
THAT IS JUDGING ME, YOU IMBECILE.

It is not an observation, it is a judgement based on your idea of what "spiritual evolution" is.
Different spiritualists would have different views on how spiritual development is measured.
You made a biased judgement, not an empirical observation.

Enjoy the detrimental effects of your arrogance, ArmsMerchant. :)

Qwned.

You keep missing my point.
THAT IS JUDGING ME, YOU IMBECILE.

It is not an observation, it is a judgement based on your idea of what "spiritual evolution" is.
Different spiritualists would have different views on how spiritual development is measured.
You made a biased judgement, not an empirical observation.

Enjoy the detrimental effects of your arrogance, ArmsMerchant. :)

It looks more like he is compromising with you... :-/

By saying you are not "spiritually evolved" but than he admits at one point he was in your position as well. He goes further on to say your neither better nor worst, but equal to him, where you are is where you should be, until you decide otherwise to change your mind.

You keep missing my point.
THAT IS JUDGING ME, YOU IMBECILE.


Enjoy the detrimental effects of your arrogance, ArmsMerchant. :)

And so by calling me an arrogant imbecile, you seek to demonstrate that you ARE in fact highly spiritually evolved?


Verily is it written, there are none so blind as those who WILL not see.

Verily is it written, there are none so blind as those who WILL not see.

I agree. :p

Edit: I don't believe in spiritual evolution, so your point is invalid anyway, I was merely pointing out your hypocrisy.

I agree. :p

Edit: I don't believe in spiritual evolution.

It is not necessary to believe in it. Evolution is not only essential but also inevitable. We are all on the road to sainthood.

In a few years, when you have gone through adolescence and your frontal cortex is fully developed, you may begin to understand this.

Right now, trying to instruct you is like trying to teach a pig to sing--it wastes my time, and annoys the pig.

Enjoy the detrimental effects of your arrogance, ArmsMerchant.

It is not necessary to believe in it. Evolution is not only essential but also inevitable. We are all on the road to sainthood.

In a few years, when you have gone through adolescence and your frontal cortex is fully developed, you may begin to understand this.

Right now, trying to instruct you is like trying to teach a pig to sing--it wastes my time, and annoys the pig.

If your frontal cortex was properly developed, you would know that it is during childhood and adolescence that the brain develops at it's fastest rate.
As the average human brain gets older and reaches it's fifties, it deteriorates.

How old are you again, ArmsMerchant?
If you haven't already reached senility then you're going senile, your close-minded fantasist bullshit is hardly worth taking notice of, considering your mental state.

Trying to instruct you is like trying to teach a carrot basic science. It is biologically incapable of comprehending the subject so it's futile to try it.

Once again, you have proven your ignorance and hypocrisy by judging my mental development, without having any actual knowledge of the most basic concepts of neuroscience.

I don't know whether you are an extremely good troll or a an extremely ignorant and mentally-underdeveloped person.

Which one is it?

If your frontal cortex was properly developed, you would know that it is during childhood and adolescence that the brain develops at it's fastest rate.
As the average human brain gets older and reaches it's fifties, it deteriorates.

How old are you again, ArmsMerchant?
If you haven't already reached senility then you're going senile, your close-minded fantasist bullshit is hardly worth taking notice of, considering your mental state.

Trying to instruct you is like trying to teach a carrot basic science. It is biologically incapable of comprehending the subject so it's futile to try it.

Once again, you have proven your ignorance and hypocrisy by judging my mental development, without having any actual knowledge of the most basic concepts of neuroscience.

I don't know whether you are an extremely good troll or a an extremely ignorant and mentally-underdeveloped person.

Which one is it?

Not so, with proper "upkeep" of the mind if you will, the mind does not deteriorate but rather maintains the brain age of its youth if you work it hard enough. If you knew a thing about neurology as you have boasted, than you would realize what really brings down the mind (even in youth) besides XTC, is an idle mind, when your brain does nothing it deteriorates. Bodies can deteriorate as well as minds, but like everything else if you do some "upkeep" you maintain itself health, to the degree were death would most likely come by way of old age and not health problems.

You will of course, call anything metaphysical a load of BS. As much as someone who believes in the metaphysical would call you closed-minded because, you don't give second thought to there being more in life than just physicality!

For your logical prowess, I could of sworn, ad hominem was a logical fallacy...

I believe I have shown you the error in your ways as well, take care, what you say than would be founded on just as much ignorance as you accuse AM to have.

Not so, with proper "upkeep" of the mind if you will, the mind does not deteriorate but rather maintains the brain age of its youth if you work it hard enough. If you knew a thing about neurology as you have boasted, than you would realize what really brings down the mind (even in youth) besides XTC, is an idle mind, when your brain does nothing it deteriorates. Bodies can deteriorate as well as minds, but like everything else if you do some "upkeep" you maintain itself health, to the degree were death would most likely come by way of old age and not health problems.


No.
Keeping your brain active will only help keep it healthy for as long as your brain is biologically healthy.
Many other physiological factors affect the brain, such as the amount of oxygen you are capable of absorbing into your blood. These factors are affected by age and directly affect the brain, even though they affect seperate organs and systems as well.
If your body deteriorates then so does your brain.

Believing that the health of your brain is affected by mental processes alone is extremely naive.

that ye be not judged." This is, I think, one of the more important sound bites from the Bible, and that is thoroughly misunderstood. Since I often mention the importance of being non-judgemental (and evidently do a lousy job of it, going by my failure to get the point across clearly), I thought I'd take another shot at it, while I still have 40 minutes left on the public comp I'm on. The subject is more complex than it may seem.

For openers, many people seem to confuse observation and description, with judgement. If I observe my neighbor beating his dog and hear the dog whining, I may well describe his act as cruel, inhumane and observe that the dog is in pain. This says nothing about the man as a person. I may observe someone driving fast and/or recklessly, and think "Wow, what a lousy driver"--again, this is observation/description of behavior and says nothing about the individual per se. Thing is, no matter how strongly we may disapprove of the actions of another, we all act in ways that are appropriate to us at the time.

Maybe the dog-beater thinks he is traing the dog to be a successful fighter. Maybe the speedy driver has a woman in the back seat giving birth. Whatever. It is not my place to judge.

The key distinction here is that judgement is always a VALUE judgement--you evaluate things as good or bad, right or wrong. (In the Highest Reality, there is no such thing as good or bad, but that is s subject for another and still more profound thread.)

Now many people see this as a non-issue. Christians may think, so what--God jusges me, why should I not judge others? For one thing, that notion is totally illogical given the premise that God manifests unconditional love and just plain incorrect . (One may quibble that I am blending fact with opinion here.) However, if there is one thing all observant Christians agree on, it is that there will be a Final Judgement--it is right there in the Apostle's Creed.

Non-Christians may (and have!)object to the whole non-judgemental thing (and the corrolary that we are All One, that no one is better or worse than anyone else),saying that some people are in fact observably better than others, and they often add--and sometimes quite vehemently--that they are better than many other people, and pointing out--quite correctly--that we are all distinct entities.

That we are--and bear with me on the digression here--but think of your body for a moment. It is composed of around 100 trillion cells--they all have different capabilities, different sizes, and are in fat, observably differentiated. However, they are part of the same wonderful and magnificent whole--YOU. (or me. Or Aunt Sally.) Would anyone be foolish enough to aver that, say, a brain cell is "better" than a heart cell, or that a liver cell is more important than a lung cvell? They are all needed. (Although a radical militant feminist might say that the ovum reigns supreme, and I would not argue with her--at least not face to face. I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid.)

Okay, back to the judgement thing--and the point of this is finally coming into view here. As Deepak Chopra says, when you are constantly evaluating, classifying, labeling, analyzing, you create a lot of turbulence in your internal dialogue. This turbulence constricts the flow of energy between you and the field of pure potentiality. (This field of pure potentiality is also known as the Force, Atman, Buddha, Allah, the Essential Self and --as members of my tribe put it -- the Master of Breath.) You literally squeeze ther gap between thoguhts. Now that gap is your connection to the field of pure potentiality. It is that state of pure awareness, that silent space betwen thoughts, that inner stillness the connects you to true power. And when you squeeze the gap, you squeeze your own connection to the field of pure potentiality and infinite creativity.

To put it another way, when you judge your neighbor instead of loving him as you love yourself, you turn your back on God.

If you say what a lousy driver, you're discribing the DRIVER'S DRIVING. That's double judgement. The best way to go about matter is to avoid complaining and speak the Word of God over people. Someone asked me how my brother was doing, Instead of being NEGATIVE, I said, well, In Yeshua's name I call him getting his stuff together. I call light and vision to his mind and life. Etc. Point is, don't get concerned with judgement, just speak the Word over people and walk in love. You get your love walk in tact and everything else just falls in place. 12345

[QUOTE=Q;9819238]If your frontal cortex was properly developed, you would know that it is during childhood and adolescence that the brain develops at it's fastest rate.
As the average human brain gets older and reaches it's fifties, it deteriorates.

How old are you again, ArmsMerchant?
If QUOTE]

The frontal cortex does not FULLY physically mature and develop until one's late twenties--one reason why younger people are notorious for impulsive behavior.

Recent research indicates that higher brain functions continue to improve up through one's fifties and sixties. There IS a significant decline in short-term memory, however.

I am only sixty--that is, five years younger than Mick Jagger.

No.
Keeping your brain active will only help keep it healthy for as long as your brain is biologically healthy.
Many other physiological factors affect the brain, such as the amount of oxygen you are capable of absorbing into your blood. These factors are affected by age and directly affect the brain, even though they affect seperate organs and systems as well.
If your body deteriorates then so does your brain.

Believing that the health of your brain is affected by mental processes alone is extremely naive.

Putting words in my mouth? I acknowledge that the age of organs deteriorate but I sought to also show, that you have a role to play in the maintainence between the body and mind. You can keep your mind and body upkept, to think you have no control over the state of your own body is extremely ignorant.

I agree. :p
I was merely pointing out your hypocrisy.

Actually, you were "merely" being a contentious twerp--not that there's anything wrong with that.

Actually, you were "merely" being a contentious twerp--not that there's anything wrong with that.

So how can someone become enlightened like you?

Judgement is a much needed function in society. You have displayed this (and your hypocrisy) for a few pages now.

Kindly admit your OP is bullshit and wrong, or keep living as an unenlightened ego driven hypocritical moron--not that there's anything wrong with that.

So how can someone become enlightened like you?

Judgement is a much needed function in society. You have displayed this (and your hypocrisy) for a few pages now.


1. Since you ask, I have never set myself up as an exemplar. I speak from personal experience simply because that is what I know best. I have stated many times that we are all on the road to sainthood--spiritual evolution is not only essential, but also inevitable.

2. There is a vast difference between exercising sound judgment--that is, displaying prudence and appropriate caution and discrimination in conducting one's affairs-- and being judgmental--stating that any person, nation, race, religion, whatever is somehow inherently superior to any other. "Better off" does not equal "better." "more highly evolved" does not equal better. Being richer or smarter or taller or happier does not equal better. I keep saying this, yet you and others seem to keep missing the point. I do not know how to make this any simpler. It DOES fly in the face of much of your social conditioning, however.

Your judgment that I am somehow hypocritical is groundless, but it does serve to illustrate my point. That is, by presuming to sit in judgment upon me, you only perpetrate and foster the illusion of separation, and thus hinder your own spiritual development.

Like limits in calculus... they approach infinity (our enlightened self), but never actually touch it (or at least in this physical, bounded world). We can attempt to manifest wisdom (such as OP's thought) in the real world, but we can never fully become an avatar of goodness.

2. There is a vast difference between exercising sound judgment--that is, displaying prudence and appropriate caution and discrimination in conducting one's affairs-- and being judgmental--stating that any person, nation, race, religion, whatever is somehow inherently superior to any other.

I agree there is a difference in excercising sound judgment and being judgmental, tell me, which one is this.........

Actually, you were "merely" being a contentious twerp--not that there's anything wrong with that.

In a few years, when you have gone through adolescence and your frontal cortex is fully developed, you may begin to understand this.

Right now, trying to instruct you is like trying to teach a pig to sing--it wastes my time, and annoys the pig.

Is this exercising sound judgement?

Tell me, where does your own over-inflated judgemental ego end, and your bullshit begin?

You will not convince me that you believe being a contentious twerp is better or equal to not being a contentious twerp. You will be unable to convince me that saying this was not meant to antagonize through your judgement of them.

You will be unable to convince me that you believe equating someone's intelligence to that of a pig, is not meant to antagonize through your judgement of them.

You WILL understand, that it looks an awful lot like judgement on your part. Ego driven at that.

Your judgment that I am somehow hypocritical is groundless, but it does serve to illustrate my point. That is, by presuming to sit in judgment upon me, you only perpetrate and foster the illusion of separation, and thus hinder your own spiritual development.

I call you a hypocrit for not practicing what you preach. I do judge you so. We ARE separate entities as well as seperate creatures. I do not believe in the spirit, there is no evidence for it, so spiritual development is an exercise in futility.

I call you a hypocrit for not practicing what you preach. I do judge you so. We ARE separate entities as well as seperate creatures. I do not believe in the spirit, there is no evidence for it, so spiritual development is an exercise in futility.

Your logic fails since we are in a bounded universe and cannot possibly comprehend anything beyond it. So whether or not "Spirit" exists on a higher subset of the planes of existence, science or evidence (especially physical-based) will neither aid nor hurt something we can't even interact with!

Metaphor:

It is like attempting to teach fish the existence of our air-filled atmosphere. It is impossible for the fish to perceive the atmosphere because it is in a lower subset of existence (let's pretend fish can't jump out of the water). Humans, on the other hand, are not bounded by water and can perceive both the sea and the air, because we live in a higher subset of existence. I hope you can understand this metaphor...

And your perception of "we are separate individuals" is flawed since you take this physical reality as a constant/axiom. What if this is a virtual world, a subset of an even bigger world? Then your idea is flawed - you can't base anecdotal (and physical) experience as proof.

In conclusion, if you want to prove the "Spirit", you have to first be outside-the-box (as in, dead, exiled from physical existence). Only then can you observe the world to a higher degree and "prove" it.

And your perception of "we are separate individuals" is flawed since you take this physical reality as a constant/axiom. What if this is a virtual world, a subset of an even bigger world? Then your idea is flawed - you can't base anecdotal (and physical) experience as proof.

In conclusion, if you want to prove the "Spirit", you have to first be outside-the-box (as in, dead, exiled from physical existence). Only then can you observe the world to a higher degree and "prove" it.

What?

Seriously, are you suggesting that my idea (humans being seperate creatures) requires disproving the spirit. If so, I do not need to disprove something that has not been proven in order to make the claim that we are seperate.

Some evidence to the FACT THAT WE ARE SEPERATE....

What number am I thinking of right now? Where did I just pinch myself?

That is right, YOU have no fucking idea.

This suggests that we are not linked together, mentaly or physically. Since spirit is not proven, you cannot make a truth claim as to us being linked spiritually.

Hence, we are seperate creatures.

What?

Seriously, are you suggesting that my idea (humans being seperate creatures) requires disproving the spirit. If so, I do not need to disprove something that has not been proven in order to make the claim that we are seperate.


[You did not understand fully what I was trying to explain to you: this is a matter of perception; hence, different viewpoints - you: A) That when we are manifested, we experience this world as distinct individuals; and my view: B) Our "selfs" contribute to a bigger, complex system (that may even be observed to transcend this physical world, as we know it).]

Still not able to grasp this?

If you play World of Warcraft, you would consider the NPC's as real-life, distinct entities that are separate from the rest (because you use all your senses to experience it). And that is how all games are designed... but if you know any understanding of computers, all software is just a unified mathematical pattern of 0's and 1's.

Heck, even consciousness itself can be a part of this illusion. Who says that your awareness proves your existence? "I think, therefore I am." is a silly statement, because when we make robots with AI, what will we think of them? As separate, sentient indivuals/beings, or just expensive machines that compute physical senses into response. The human body is no different.


Some evidence to the FACT THAT WE ARE SEPERATE....

What number am I thinking of right now? Where did I just pinch myself?

That is right, YOU have no fucking idea.

This suggests that we are not linked together, mentaly or physically. Since spirit is not proven, you cannot make a truth claim as to us being linked spiritually.

Hence, we are seperate creatures.

Again, since we perceive this physicality with five senses, what is there to prove that this isn't a world similar to the Matrix (the move)? All our knowledge (based on the physics of this world) will be useless since there is a HIGHER plane of existence.

And me "knowing what you are thinking in your head" does not in any way aid or harm the idea of a transcendental reality. "We are one" does not equate as "ZOMG I can think what you are thinking!"... durrr.

Completely off topic from the discussion, a comment or three...


If you play World of Warcraft, you would consider the NPC's as real-life, distinct entities that are separate from the rest

No, you most certainly wouldn't, unless you are a reality-challenged misfit trying to substitute fantasy for a real life. They aren't "real", the most realistic responses you will ever get from NPCs is a very limited set of pre-programmed responses.

(because you use all your senses to experience it).

Which is also the reason you don't. You do NOT use all your senses. Sight, sound, to a limited (extremely) extent - touch. That leaves out smell, the rest of touch (i.e. feeling and so on). Your character isn't a substitute you, it's merely an extension, and you do not have all your character's attributes by that extension. To believe that it's the same thing as using all your senses is an indication of a desperate for counselling. Maybe someday VR will be developed that can actually pull off this Matrix-world you wish for, but meantime it doesn't exist,and most surely as fuck not in the WoW game.

Still not able to grasp this?

Yes it could all be an illusion. We could be a dream of God, or stuck in the matrix, or we could be the dreamers, and everyone around us is an illusion.

We could all be the product of the fart particles giving a godlike being a headache.

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Any of this 'what if' shit is just as plausible as the rest. It is useless to use this line of thinking in an argument or debate, and has even less practical value.

You say my logic fails at making the claim we are seperate entities, and yet, you present nothing but Matrix nonsense to try and show otherwise.

It is perfectly obvious we are seperate. You cannot read my mind, feel what I feel, taste what I taste, think like I think. You cannot perceive through any of my senses. You cannot completely understand what it is to be me, nor I you.

You can only make assumptions to everything I say, think, feel etc, which is different than knowledge. If we were all one, I think this interaction would be different.

^---this is the cold hard logical truth of it.

Yes it could all be an illusion. . . .

It is perfectly obvious we are seperate. You cannot read my mind, feel what I feel, taste what I taste, think like I think. You cannot perceive through any of my senses. You cannot completely understand what it is to be me, nor I you.
.

Separation is an illusion. In a sense, ALL visible matter is illusory, as it is--according to Einstein and many ohers--mostly empty space. At the qwuantum level, minute particles emerge form the Void for no apparant reason, interact, and return to the void. This is a well-established "cold, hard" scientific fact.

However, to be "All One" is not to be identical. Consider the cells of your body. You have brain cells, skin cells, liver cells, and so on--all different, all "separate"--yet they are All One, in that they all together make up the wonderful creration that is you.

And I rather doubt that anyone would be silly enough to contend that any one of them is any better than any other.

In a like manner, we are all cells in the body of God.

And I rather doubt that anyone would be silly enough to contend that any one of them is any better than any other.


You accuse people of being morons who are less evolved than you all the time.

You accuse people of being morons who are less evolved than you all the time.

Incorrect.

Once in a great while, I will quote Rust, from whom I got the expression "fucking moron"--when I encounter a post which strikes me as particularly low in content and high in willful assholery. And I have frequently credited him.

"All the time"? Hardly.

But while we're on the subject, let me add something that may actually be of some help or interest to someone. Spirituality is 99% repetition--that is, enlightenment is not like being vaccinated or learning a secret handshake. It is a state of mind which varies, and which one maintains only with constant mindfulness. For instance, just this morning I cought some NPD coming out in a brief conversation with a neighbor. I noted it, accepted it, and let go of it. You see, we can never put down what we do not pick up and what we resist, persists. To put it another way, we can not release that which we have never embraced.

Personally, I have attained the seventh state only a few times. This is not news, I have stated this before. Most of the time, I hover somewhere between the third and fifth level. Like anyone else--including some of my more illustrious predecessors such as as Jesus, Mother Teresa, Nasrudin, and Rabbi Hillel--I succumb to the illusion of separation.

And I rather doubt that anyone would be silly enough to contend that any one of them is any better than any other.

No, my brain cells are much more important than say the cells that make up my appendix.

I am aware that the all matter is made up of mostly voidspace. I am aware of the science that suggests quantum particles form out of void and vanish back into it. Just b/c something is small or behaves in ways not understood does not mean it is not real (or illusion). That should be made clear.

In keeping with your "interesting" comparison of humans, cells, and the body of God.....what organs do humans constitute of God? The cellular structure that is humanity, performs exactly what function for Gods body? If you say the asshole of a God, I may agree.

You could be right. We could all be individual cells that come together to make up the body of God. You have shit for evidence, beyond your fanciful comparison.

Humans are seperate entities from one another. Human beings are, however, social creatures. Do not confuse the social nature of the animal that is a human, as being indictive of humans not being seperate from one another.

It is a romantic and pleasant, this oneness with the universe, but it simply doesn't hold one quantum particle of water. :)