That is my thesis, and I shall now prove it.

Religon has destroyed history.

So many people have taken religous texts and used them as the only history of the world. Granted, they are historical texts, but no more so than the magna carta, aristotle, and beowolf. The bible is a histroy of one group of people, and not even that detailed, and about a very small group of people living in a huge world with people all over that area.

Moses, abraham, Jesus, these people are singular people with a small group of followers mostly imbred, nomads, with out a permanant place to call home who think everything that they do not know is evil.

And even at this their history was written by people years after their passing.

But still people have come to the conclusion that this is how it is.

Christopher Columbus was later sentenced to life in prison for losing almost 20 of the queens ships, and he killed indians. No one hears about this.

I have never really learned about plato, aristorle, any great philosophers on school.

It is filled with wars lead by zealots against non believers.

History is written by winners, and the winners beliefs seems to dictate the history that ensues in text books, and stories.

Popular religon had changed so many times, and empires have fallen for it. Russia fell a few times, rome was a great super power based on many gods, europe as a whole was a great empire spreading all the way to india, and to the south of africa.

Now it seems as though America might be at the doom of so many before it, almost as russia when they adopted Marxism and skewed it in to a way to rule the masses by controling the masses. Not as an monarchy but by shuting the system down.

All great empires colapse under their own doing. No one seems to realize that their is no solution to this, other than working with everyone else. And accepting others agendas and merging them. Not like the Geneva convention, or the leauge of nations, but more of an EU sort of deal.

The EU is an incredible thing, and it seems that if they can get all the kinks out they might be on to something. It is surely not a religous deal much like the reason for America escaping religous percucition, but more of an economical wellbeing.

I wonder if religon is going to dictate the future as much as it has so far. I mean we have no real religous texts from before the death of christ, and those that are seem to be the most fucked up books ever written.

What will be the new bible? will it write the history of tommrow? I hope not.

I wonder if religon is going to dictate the future as much as it has so far. I mean we have no real religous texts from before the death of christ, and those that are seem to be the most fucked up books ever written.

What will be the new bible? will it write the history of tommrow? I hope not.

I know religion is now accepted by the American public at large, as a political issue.

I probably will not see a non-christian candidate win the presidency in America, in my lifetime.

Obama will win, I guarntee it.

Its not religion that has done this...

It is religious fundamentalism, religious fanaticism... Played up by those who sought socio-political control...

My actions will not Greatly alter this time stream, as opposed to a fundamentalist as those guys of the 700 Club or something like that, and I am a religious or spiritual person.

Its not religion that has done this...

It is religious fundamentalism, religious fanaticism... Played up by those who sought socio-political control...

My actions will not Greatly alter this time stream, as opposed to a fundamentalist as those guys of the 700 Club or something like that, and I am a religious or spiritual person.

If your actions don't greatly alter the time stream by affecting those around you, then you're not really that religious, you're just spiritual. Religion implies that you make it a point to express to everyone at every place you go the change wrought by your faith in your beliefs, thus recruiting per se new members to the faith. Being spiritual is just connecting with whatever spirit(s) you feel is the entity(ies) that are going to bring you happiness, joy, and contentment.

You may not think it, but repeatedly telling your gnostic stories will make an impact, even if it's just a small dent, in the lives of the people around you, for better or worse.. that is if you are as vocal about it in person as you are over the net.

I am a religious or spiritual person.

Which? I have never known, read of, or heard of anyone who was both.

In many ways, the terms are antithical.

Which? I have never known, read of, or heard of anyone who was both.

In many ways, the terms are antithical.

That's the joys of Gnosticism... unanswered ambiguity.

After being raised religiously... I can affirm that I am highly spiritual. I still go to church (I work with youth) but I can attest to the fact that I hate religion and the industrialization and institutionalism caused by religion.

I think if we take away the ornate buildings and meet at people's houses in small groups we have a better chance of changing the world. Mega-Churches piss me off to no end.

Even in my mid-size non-denominational church, we have a coffee shop/smoothie bar and our own church bookstore. Those kind of things don't have a place in a church. But we also don't have church membership, nor do we do mandatory or open tithing. All tithes are anonymous and we don't pass a plate or anything, there's a few boxes on the walls at the back of the sanctuary which prayer cards and tithes go in.

Our lack of membership and expected tithing does lend towards the fact that a bookstore and smoothie bar/coffee shop can help keep our church running, but it's still something I don't really agree with.

Yes, religion is partly responsible for the distortion of human history. And inevitably, many parts of history are distorted and should not be taken as absolute, only as likely truth.

However, religion isn't the only thing responsible.

Yes, religion is partly responsible for the distortion of human history. And inevitably, many parts of history are distorted and should not be taken as absolute, only as likely truth.

However, religion isn't the only thing responsible.


WW2 had 50 million people killed because of Hitler who basicly abolished religion in Germany. The crucades in total had like 1 million people killed and even if you count EVERY death from religion it wouldnt be near 50 million

WW2 had 50 million people killed because of Hitler who basicly abolished religion in Germany. The crucades in total had like 1 million people killed and even if you count EVERY death from religion it wouldnt be near 50 million

Hitler exterminated an entire culture, including it's religion.

That kinda means they died for their religion. Had they not been Hebrew/Jewish (culute/religion) then Mr. Adolf wouldn't have done the whole "superior race/exterminate the filthy jews" tirades he did.

If your actions don't greatly alter the time stream by affecting those around you, then you're not really that religious, you're just spiritual.

Religion implies that you make it a point to express to everyone at every place you go the change wrought by your faith in your beliefs, thus recruiting per se new members to the faith. Being spiritual is just connecting with whatever spirit(s) you feel is the entity(ies) that are going to bring you happiness, joy, and contentment.

You may not think it, but repeatedly telling your gnostic stories will make an impact, even if it's just a small dent, in the lives of the people around you, for better or worse.. that is if you are as vocal about it in person as you are over the net.

Probably meant to say that...

Well, I wouldn't define the ends as just "happiness, joy, and contentment" oh sure you might get those three feelings, but a Buddhist is a Buddhist for enlightenment and illumination, they are spiritual. Let us not forget though:

The Parable of the City on the Hill: It can be seen by all, so a spiritual tradition must be made to catch the attention of those around them. One should not force a spiritual tradition on someone but rather to be there for those interested in the tradition. Now I consider Christ a spiritual person, not religious.

I dont identify myself as a Gnostic, I identify myself as... Me, I am Who I am. Gnosticism is how I connected with others around me to make a point, its a means not an end. I think that is what spirituality is as well, a means not an end.

Which? I have never known, read of, or heard of anyone who was both.

In many ways, the terms are antithical.

Well, it comes down to what you interpret as religious or spiritual, I dont want to but at the risk of turning this thread into a discussion of Religion V. Spirituality what did we [as forum members] agree on the definition of the two?

I would pick spiritual if religion was agreed to be a collection of secondhand dogma and doctrine. I probably meant to say spiritual but I left it open to interpretation and said "spiritual or religious"

Humans destroy society.

Humans destroy society.

I don't know your religious views... I don't really care to look because it's not really any of my business but...

Would you agree that the Bible would be correct in saying that humans are inherently wicked, religion aside?

I know alot of people are like "I believe if you do good things you go to Heaven b/c why would God be mean to Good people" which is all good and well for those that think Humans are decent, but as per your post, I'm curious as to whether you believe people are inherently wicked and can they be inherently good?

I don't know your religious views... I don't really care

Good! Lets stay that way.

Would you agree that the Bible would be correct in saying that humans are inherently wicked, religion aside?

No, I do not believe we are 'inherently' anything, we always have choice.

I know alot of people are like "I believe if you do good things you go to Heaven b/c why would God be mean to Good people" which is all good and well for those that think Humans are decent, but as per your post, I'm curious as to whether you believe people are inherently wicked and can they be inherently good?

Good and bad are subjective man. And you can be as you decide 'good' is, or you can be as you decide 'bad' is. It doesn't matter.

But as far as fucking up history, destroying society, etc. ... these things have happened because people made certain choices. If we want to stop these things from happening again, people would have to stop making those choices.

But as far as fucking up history, destroying society, etc. ... these things have happened because people made certain choices. If we want to stop these things from happening again, people would have to stop making those choices.

Can you expand on these choices... and how we can go without repeating history?

Do you think that it's possible for racism and prejudice to be eradicated? One of the big things I try to push with my peers and people younger than me is that we are human beings before we are anything else (black, white, male, female, straight, gay) and that we need to learn to work together. Do you think that will be possible within say... the next 100 years, should we make it that far?

Can you expand on these choices... and how we can go without repeating history?

Just don't be assholes.

Do you think that it's possible for racism and prejudice to be eradicated? One of the big things I try to push with my peers and people younger than me is that we are human beings before we are anything else (black, white, male, female, straight, gay) and that we need to learn to work together. Do you think that will be possible within say... the next 100 years, should we make it that far?

Of course its possible. Probable?

Considering the last ten thousand years, I would say not.

Just don't be assholes.



Of course its possible. Probable?

Considering the last ten thousand years, I would say not.

Okay... suppose we started it off in half of a country... how long do you think it would take for the majority of the 1st class world to buy into it?

Sans the rest of the world liking America. I'm quite sure that we've fucked up enough to where they won't ever fully trust America because America will never fully appreciate what they have.

Okay... suppose we started it off in half of a country... how long do you think it would take for the majority of the 1st class world to buy into it?

Who are you to make decisions for others? Their choices are their choices.

Sans the rest of the world liking America. I'm quite sure that we've fucked up enough to where they won't ever fully trust America because America will never fully appreciate what they have.

Western culture is beginning to collapse, as all cultures do.

Who are you to make decisions for others? Their choices are their choices.


I'm not saying make the choices for them... I suppose buy in was a bad term usage.

If we start to open up and accept people as humans... do you think it would sweep across the world or do you think people would still stay prejudiced?

If we start to open up and accept people as humans... do you think it would sweep across the world or do you think people would still stay prejudiced?

Given the last ten thousand years?

...





It certainly could be possible. If compassion blossomed, suffering would wilt.

But people choose what people choose. The world is the way it is.

Humans destroy society.

Your an atheist, I am assuming, seeing that your other replies in the past seemed "godless." Not saying its wrong, it just didnt give way in your replies that there is a God. Now, I am a theist... Let it be marked down today on Totse that, the two came to an agreement!

IMHO, saying religion destroys society makes just as much sense as saying guns kill people, that would be wrong, as Obbe point out that, it is PEOPLE WHO KILL PEOPLE! <--- Paraphrased ;)

Your an atheist, I am assuming, seeing that your other replies in the past seemed "godless." Not saying its wrong, it just didnt give way in your replies that there is a God. Now, I am a theist... Let it be marked down today on Totse that, the two came to an agreement!

IMHO, saying religion destroys society makes just as much sense as saying guns kill people, that would be wrong, as Obbe point out that, it is PEOPLE WHO KILL PEOPLE! <--- Paraphrased ;)

I don't really think it should make a difference whether you're atheist or theist... as I said earlier... before we are anything else, we are human beings. That should be reason enough to join hands with one another.

Btw... I can't correctly distinguish when I turned into a shitty hippy... but I have.:(

Your an atheist, I am assuming, seeing that your other replies in the past seemed "godless." Not saying its wrong, it just didnt give way in your replies that there is a God. Now, I am a theist... Let it be marked down today on Totse that, the two came to an agreement!

Well ...

I don't really think it should make a difference whether you're atheist or theist...

But, I do believe in God.

Well ...



But, I do believe in God.

I figured you did... but as I said, what you believe shouldn't be important to me unless you specifically come to me concerning your own faith.

The crazy evangelising stuff that southern baptists and evangelists tend to do just isn't really on par with what I believe Christians were meant to do. We can plant seeds. Tell our stories... but ultimately, it's not our place to shove our beliefs down your throat.

I don't really think it should make a difference whether you're atheist or theist... as I said earlier... before we are anything else, we are human beings. That should be reason enough to join hands with one another.

Btw... I can't correctly distinguish when I turned into a shitty hippy... but I have.:(

I know, it does not make a difference, I just said that because, some people on this are very steadfast in there belief is absolute and we could agree on something.

LOL, start wearin' the glasses and peace medallions, I guess.

Well ...



But, I do believe in God.

Wow, you see thats why I let you know that I was making an assumption, just in case you said that, I might have been thinking of someone else, who I was unsure about...

I figured you did... but as I said, what you believe shouldn't be important to me unless you specifically come to me concerning your own faith.

The crazy evangelising stuff that southern baptists and evangelists tend to do just isn't really on par with what I believe Christians were meant to do. We can plant seeds. Tell our stories... but ultimately, it's not our place to shove our beliefs down your throat.

*Overhears conversation* and *Nod's head*

I get the feeling, that Christianity was not supposed to be what it was today. I get the feeling Early Christianity was more, esoteric than what it was today... Parts still exist from the bible and Saints, that cover on the more inner tradition of Christianity, but the one most people know today and evangelize today is nothing more than a shell of what it really is.

Well... It's not so far gone... it's just focused on greed and envy instead of love, selflessness, and servancy.

Obbe... or anyone else: Off Topic b/c I don't want to make a thread on it - Do you believe Marriage is strictly a religious entity, therefore should not be changed for homosexual unions or do you think it's become a secular thing?

Do you believe Marriage is strictly a religious entity, therefore should not be changed for homosexual unions or do you think it's become a secular thing?

Well apparently I can get married simply by signing a contract with my significant other downtown, with absolutely no ceremony, and become legally married. So no, I do not think it has to be a religious thing at all.

I think if some homosexuals wanted to be married, of course they should be allowed to. As a Christian ceremony/religious ritual type thing? Of course not ... Christians do not believe homosexuals should be married, its their faith, they have every right to believe what they want ... and because of that, I don't know why two homosexuals would want a Christian marriage ceremony in the first place!

But, of course homosexuals should still be allowed to get married. They should be allowed to go downtown and sign a contract just like I can. They should be allowed to have a ceremonial wedding, just like anybody ... there no reason it needs to be religious, and especially no reason it needs to be a part of a religion which is anti-gay. It could be a part of their own spiritual beliefs, or simply just a non-spiritual gathering of their friends and family to witness their union and party it up.

Of course homosexuals should be allowed to be married, just as of course atheists should be allowed to be married. When someone tells them they're not allowed, that person is forcing their beliefs onto the couple.

edit - Oh, yeah ... I only quoted you in my last post to say that to godfather89

Well... It's not so far gone... it's just focused on greed and envy instead of love, selflessness, and servancy.

Obbe... or anyone else: Off Topic b/c I don't want to make a thread on it - Do you believe Marriage is strictly a religious entity, therefore should not be changed for homosexual unions or do you think it's become a secular thing?

The shell is served out of greed instead of love. They will not get much out of it except being brainwashed, there idea of faith is the idea of being brainwashed. We live in shitty times... With the way people act.

Marriage was at one point religious, but i see it changing to secular means, perhaps with some religious tradition.

Hitler exterminated an entire culture, including it's religion.

That kinda means they died for their religion. Had they not been Hebrew/Jewish (culute/religion) then Mr. Adolf wouldn't have done the whole "superior race/exterminate the filthy jews" tirades he did.

hitler didnt just kil jews there was something called a war and him and his generals were very ruthless. hollocost killed bout 6 mill. so i think 44 mil is still more!

hitler didnt just kil jews there was something called a war and him and his generals were very ruthless. hollocost killed bout 6 mill. so i think 44 mil is still more!

Holy shit! Woooooooooooooow. I never knew that.

Oh my God! Who would've ever thought atrocious spelling would reveal something that was never taught in history class.

Oh wait...

If you really want to understand what religion has done in the way of deaths over the world you have to take into account that world wars happened before WW1, where CATHOLICS fought LUTHERANS AND CALVINISTS. Anyone that died in that war (which spanned all across what was civilised Europe at the time) was killed for religious reasons. The Tibetans that have died since Occupation in China has been because of their religious difference with the state of China. Religious deaths do not fall only to the Abrahamic religions. You must also go back and look at the deaths amongst other majour religions and the destruction caused by their existence.