So over the course of the semester, I ran out of paper to take notes on.
There was a note specific section in the back of one of my textbooks, so I just started writing the most important things down in there.

Turns out that that particular textbook is the only one we are allowed to use for our exam, because it has all the tables and charts in it.
I'm like, yeah whatever, no big deal, right?

Well about a half hour into the exam, the teachers start making the rounds a flipping through everyones books, making sure there is nothing written down in them. I'm just like, aw shit :( Post secondary schools, especially mine, have an extremely strict policy on cheating, and even though I am not looking at my notes, they aren't going to believe me if I tell them that.

So I just started praying in the back of my mind, "God, please make me invisible, please don't let the teacher notice me."
The prof had just finished checking the book of the guy across from me and was walking over to me (I'm completely frozen) when someone else puts up their hand, so the teacher leaves me and goes over to help them.

At this point, I change my prayer to something along the lines of, "Please let the prof forget about me."
I kept writing through all of this, and the teacher starts checking other peoples books, right up to the person next to me, but he doesn't check mine.

He comes and stands right at the back, just behind me, but doesn't pay attention to me. I asked him a question, he answered it, but didn't say anything about my book.

I finished writing the exam, handed it in, and left.

Right afterwards, I go and talk to some of the guys in my sister program. They are all like, "so what happened, cheat sheet in his book?" and I'm like, "wtf you guys talking about?" and it turns out that one of the other guys was caught with writing in his book and made to leave the exam.
The reason I didn't notice that happen was because I was too busy praying that the same thing wouldn't happen to me.

So yeah, that's my testimony.

So... God helps cheaters but not little boys dying of AIDS? Gotcha!

So... God helps cheaters but not little boys dying of AIDS? Gotcha!

Maybe all they have to do is ask?

That makes sense; all those people are suffering because they haven't asked god!

Why don't they just ask god? I'm glad god doesn't take the initiative to help them without them asking for it, either. Serves them right for being so stupid, huh?

This takes us back to the whole God gave us free will argument. He gave them the choice to follow and seek him and ask for his guidance and help.

If he just goes ahead and helps them, then they are none the wiser, save for being cured or whatever, and they continue on with the life they had before.

It's for everyones benefit that he asks for us to follow him.

You got lucky. Plain and simple.

Way to go! :)

I haven't been to church in over a decade, never pray for anything, and a while ago I found 20 bucks on the floor next to an ATM. What does that tell you?
Nothing. Absolutely nothing.

What does that tell you?

It tells me that one man's carelessness is another man's fortune.

If he just goes ahead and helps them, then they are none the wiser, save for being cured or whatever, and they continue on with the life they had before.

It's for everyones benefit that he asks for us to follow him.

In case you didn't get it, I'm ridiculing the silly notion that all the people suffering in the world are suffering just because they haven't asked god. Many of them have; they just haven't received any answer. Perhaps because there is no evidence that prayer actually works? (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/31/health/31pray.html)

As for the argument of free will:

1. Them being helped without asking and therefore not learning a lesson has nothing to do with free will. It just means they got helped without asking, while you (supposedly) got helped when you asked. There is no difference here regarding free will.

Just like if someone falls down and I helped them get up without them asking me for help doesn't mean I have somehow robbed them of free will.

2. Even if it had anything to do with free will, an omnipotent god must be able to preserve free will while at the same time help.

And even if he couldn't, it's rather appalling to suggest that people should suffer miserably just because your god thinks they should learn a lesson.

Maybe all they have to do is ask?

I agree.

*Awaits Hexadecimal to help bail him out*

When I posted this thread, I wasn't intending to argue/debate with anyone. I was posting solely for the purpose of letting people know what happened, and what I feel was the reason behind it.

This seems to be the one big difference I notice between believers/non believers on Totse. I say believer, because Christian may be too narrow minded.
Everyone is always so quick to jump in the bandwagon and try to put down our beliefs, but as far as I've seen, we just defend ours.

We don't attack what the rest of you believe (for the most part) or try to push our views on you, so it would be nice if you perhaps showed us the same respect?

Plz and ty.

You got lucky.

http://www.totse.com/community/images/icons/icon13.gif

When I posted this thread, I wasn't intending to argue/debate with anyone. I was posting solely for the purpose of letting people know what happened, and what I feel was the reason behind it.

This is a discussion board; a forum to discuss things. It isn't a personal blog. If you post something as an example of what you think shows god exists, then you should expect people to respond, either questioning or supporting what you said.

I questioned what you said. If your beliefs are so fragile and silly that simple scientific evidence or just plain elementary critical thinking is an "attack" against them, then that's a pretty compelling argument against holding such beliefs in the first place...

*Awaits Hexadecimal to help bail him out*

When I posted this thread, I wasn't intending to argue/debate with anyone. I was posting solely for the purpose of letting people know what happened, and what I feel was the reason behind it.

This seems to be the one big difference I notice between believers/non believers on Totse. I say believer, because Christian may be too narrow minded.
Everyone is always so quick to jump in the bandwagon and try to put down our beliefs, but as far as I've seen, we just defend ours.

We don't attack what the rest of you believe (for the most part) or try to push our views on you, so it would be nice if you perhaps showed us the same respect?

Plz and ty.

Seriously, the best defense against Rust is galvanization.

Coat your understanding with God's wisdom.

Rust: You want to know why these people starve? It is because they let the world step upon them and starve them. Instead of letting the spirit of War that God imbues every man with stand up and fight for their basic survival, they choose their fears. They let their fear of death bring death upon them. They survive a little while, conforming to the fear of retaliation for fighting, instead of risking life and limb in the trust of their heart, which screams to stand tall against their oppression so that they may survive as God wishes them to.

If these men asked God to feed them, they would be convicted to fight for food. They would know who to fight, where to attack, when to do so, and they would win. Babe Ruth batted well, but God bats 1.000.

So what you're saying is that you're pulling shit out of your ass and ultimately proving me correct by essentially saying that "prayer" alone has nothing to do with it - they can pray and have nothing happen, contrary to what he implied in his response? Awesome!



lol! @ you trying to be a hero

Instead of letting the spirit of War that God imbues every man with

So religion is the source of every war.

So religion is the source of every war.

Maybe he was referring to spiritual warefare, don't you think?

No he was quite blatantly talking about reality.

Unless of course this food they are fighting for is "spiritual food" in which case they're still a bit fucked.

Though I now foresee a metaphorical fight. A fight with the earth to grow potatos? Maybe a spiritual metaphorical righteous battle?

I'ma gonna done try this askin thing.

God, if you're listening, and, as other people will testify to, all I have to do is ask, Please let Ed show up at my front door tomorrow letting me know I've won The Publishers Clearing House Sweepstakes. Thank you in advance.

<holds breath>

So religion is the source of every war.

No, the heart is the source of war.

No he was quite blatantly talking about reality.

Unless of course this food they are fighting for is "spiritual food" in which case they're still a bit fucked.

Though I now foresee a metaphorical fight. A fight with the earth to grow potatos? Maybe a spiritual metaphorical righteous battle?

No, I quite literally mean combat. Physical. The protection of family and community against oppressors. Turning a cheek is wonderful when you actually have one to turn; letting the world stomp upon you shows no cheek, let alone gives you one to turn. God doesn't command us to be door mats; quite the contrary, he commands us to be true to the heart of flesh we are given when the Spirit comes over us. To love God, to love thy enemy, to stand for Him. If there's anything the OT teaches about the warrior spirit of God, it's that He doesn't put up with oppressors.

So what you're saying is that you're pulling shit out of your ass and ultimately proving me correct by essentially saying that "prayer" alone has nothing to do with it - they can pray and have nothing happen, contrary to what he implied in his response? Awesome!



lol! @ you trying to be a hero

No. I'm saying that prayer has everything to do with it. If they ask God for a solution, they will be given one, along with the courage necessary. It's a solution they certainly don't have the balls to carry out on their human willpower.

No, you're saying exactly what I said. You essentially said that their prayers don't have to result in a solution to the problem (e.g. people can " let the world step upon them and starve them"). So at best (i.e. even if we ignore the fact that you have no fucking evidence to support this) all you can say is that praying alone doesn't resolve anything, they need to do something else (according to you that is "stand up and fight for their basic survival and not choose their fears") all which is contrary to what Running Free implied.

But instead of imbueing the hearts of those without, with anger and warrior abilities would it not be better to fill the hearts of those with, with generosity?

Or how about just not having to imbue anybody with anything in the first place?

This is a supposedly omnipotent god we're talking about. He can, allegedly, do anything... He can fix everything in a blink of an eye all while preserving free will!

Or how about just not having to imbue anybody with anything in the first place?

This is a supposedly omnipotent god we're talking about. He can, allegedly, do anything... He can fix everything in a blink of an eye all while preserving free will!

But he'd rather help us to help ourselves, rather than doing everything for us.

1. An omnipotent god must be able to make them help themselves while at the same time preserving free will, however weird that may sound.

2. Even if he couldn't, it's rather appalling to suggest that people should suffer miserably just because your god prefers not helping.

3. Given that you didn't "help yourself" in the very story you told in the beginning of this thread, that reeks of you desperatly trying to save prayer by throwing any crummy defense you can think of.

As said in the Matrix, he can only show us the door...... we're the ones that had to walk through it.

^ That tired response was dealt with in number 3. Try again.

The winds of grace are always blowing; we need only raise our sails.

The winds of grace are always blowing; we need only raise our sails.

Thank you.

Yet you still very dishonestly keep ignoring the fact that according to you, you didn't raise any sail! You prayed and God helped you not get caught cheating. You prayed and stuff happened. Apparently cheating merits being helped with no 'sail rising' but suffering unbelievable pain does not.

"Raising the sail" (i.e."helping yourself" or working hard to improve yourself) isn't proof of prayer's efficacy, that's proof of the effectiveness of hard work and determination! What do you think an atheist does? The same thing minus the prayer!

Rust, I'll say this simply. You have no idea whatsoever it is that I said. You're filtering faith through your faithless viewpoint, and picking up a human understanding that bears no resemblance whatsoever to what is being said.

God answers prayers, and does preserve free will. If these men ask God to feed them, God will give them absolutely everything necessary to get food. He's the rock, the foundation, the source...we still have to do the foot work to build the superstructure. We can ask for freedom, food, luxury, and anything else...and God will give us every last tool we need to accomplish these things. We still have to use the tools though. As to atheists doing the same thing, minus the prayer, "The Lord rains his blessings upon both the righteous and the wicked." Huh, interesting how an ancient book full of blatant lies and contradictions still possesses relevance. God searches our hearts, whether we have faith or not, and blesses us all the same. I don't have faith in God because it benefits me; I have faith because God revealed Himself to me. I know God is, and I know Christ is King. The rest is moot detail in the big picture.

Are you even reading what I'm saying? Because you start accusing me of not knowing what you're saying, and then say exactly what I said you had!

"God will give us every last tool we need to accomplish these things. We still have to use the tools though."

In other words, if we don't use the tools there might not be a solution to our problems! Guess who said that?

"You essentially said that their prayers don't have to result in a solution to the problem (e.g. people can " let the world step upon them and starve them"). So at best (i.e. even if we ignore the fact that you have no fucking evidence to support this) all you can say is that praying alone doesn't resolve anything, they need to do something else" - Me


Prayers don't have to result in a solution to the problem, because we can choose not to use those tools*! They need to do something else, besides pray, which according to you is use those tools!

You've just repeated exactly what I said. Please, read the things I say carefully.

[* those tools you have no fucking evidence for but I'm being good and assuming they exist so we can continue the discussion, because we both know you don't provide any evidence for the utter bullshit you spew]

Rust, seriously, you get dumber and dumber every time I talk to you. Are you even remotely capable of stepping outside of your own viewpoint? Imagine being one of these people that is starving. Imagine the crippling fear they have, the crushed spirits they have seeing their loved ones and communities slowly wasting away to starvation.

You think they can just fucking stand up for themselves? They have no fight in them. They have nothing to use. They have no solution. They are destitute and abandoned by man, because humanity sure as fuck doesn't care enough to save them. If they ask God for salvation, they'll be given the spirit to fight, the intuition to plan every last attack to success. They will be given a solution. Their problem is solved...but they still have to put the solution into action. Knowing how to solve the equation that results in the shape of a circle is wonderful, but until you plot the solution you don't have a circle. Have fun in the dark.

As to your last comment: You have all the evidence surrounding you every day you live in this world. God has provided it your entire life and forever will, but you choose to contain yourself in a prison where you can see yourself as alpha and omega. If you stepped out of your cell for even a moment your entire concept of life would crumble to the ground. You're afraid of that, and that's okay; God loves you no less for it.

They will be given a solution. Their problem is solved...but they still have to put the solution into action. Knowing how to solve the equation that results in the shape of a circle is wonderful, but until you plot the solution you don't have a circle.

... Which is exactly what I said!

"You essentially said that their prayers don't have to result in a solution to the problem (e.g. people can " let the world step upon them and starve them"). So at best (i.e. even if we ignore the fact that you have no fucking evidence to support this) all you can say is that praying alone doesn't resolve anything, they need to do something else" - "


Prayer alone doesn't solve the problem, they need to do something else. That something is that "they still have to put the solution into action".

Either you're trolling, or you're unbelievably stupid. Either way you're discrediting yourself, so thank you.

As for the "evidence", I had already guessed you couldn't provide any evidence to support your bullshit long ago, so no need to give me all that fluff, just say you can't.

You misunderstand what solution means. Prayer doesn't result in a realization of the solution. Learn English.

Learn English? No, I think you mean "learn to weasel your way out of things by beating the ever-loving shit out of a dictionary".

Sadly not even that dishonest tactic is going to help you here.

I was talking with Running Free. Running Free claimed that he prayed and his problem was solved. He didn't use any "tools", he didn't use any plan, he didn't use any intuition or fighting spirit; he just prayed and poof his god made the problem go away.

So whether you like it or not, in this context "solution" means "when the problem doesn't exist anymore". If you're talking about something else, it's you who need to learn English. Ironic, I know.:)

So yes, prayer doesn't result in the realization of a solution. That was exactly my point all along. Thank you.

It takes you five paragraphs to say 'You proved me right.'

Wonderful. I never said you were wrong about Running Free. Care to take your inflated ego elsewhere so I can talk to you?

Don't blame your utter incompetence on me. I've been maintaining that you were proving me right - an saying so in much less than five paragraphs - for ages.

I believe I first said:

"So what you're saying is that you're pulling shit out of your ass and ultimately proving me correct by essentially saying that "prayer" alone has nothing to do with it - they can pray and have nothing happen, contrary to what he implied in his response? Awesome!"


Thank you though, for talking about ego while at the same time exaggerating what I've been doing and not admitting your fault in this whole mess. I love irony.

I was talking with Running Free. Running Free claimed that he prayed and his problem was solved. He didn't use any "tools", he didn't use any plan, he didn't use any intuition or fighting spirit; he just prayed and poof his god made the problem go away.



It wasn't so much as a poof and problem's solved. The problem was always there. The prof walked past me multiple times; he could have checked my book at any time. I asked God to just let the prof forget about me, and as far as I'm concerned, that's what happened.

He almost had my book in his hands when he was called to help someone else. He came back to the person next to me and checked their book as well. He walked right past me after that and basically stood over my shoulder while I kept writing.

Don't think that I just prayed and forgot about it. The fact that I might get checked was always at the front of my mind....... I didn't know whether God would help me or not...... as far as I'm concerned, he did.

It wasn't luck, it wasn't chance, and it wasn't coincidence. You can say whatever you like, and it won't change my mind.

It wasn't so much as a poof and problem's solved. The problem was always there. The prof walked past me multiple times; he could have checked my book at any time. I asked God to just let the prof forget about me, and as far as I'm concerned, that's what happened.

I said "poof" to point out how you didn't have to actually do anything (aside from initially praying) not to say that it went away instantly after you prayed or that you weren't nervous or concerned.


You didn't do anything besides pray. Not only does that put a context of the term "Solution" being used here, which is what I was telling Hexadecimal, but it also refutes your later comments suggesting that god wants us to help ourselves after we pray. Like I said, you still very dishonestly keep ignoring the fact that according to you, you didn't raise any sail! You prayed and God helped you not get caught cheating. You prayed and stuff happened. Apparently cheating merits being helped with no 'sail rising' but suffering unbelievable pain does not.

You can say whatever you like, and it won't change my mind.

I know, that's the problem. A reasonable human being would be open to what other people have to say, and be willing to change their mind. You aren't reasonable. You grasp to the concept of prayer no matter how much evidence there is against it. That's dishonest and unreasonable.

I know, that's the problem. A reasonable human being would be open to what other people have to say, and be willing to change their mind. You aren't reasonable. You grasp to the concept of prayer no matter how much evidence there is against it. That's dishonest and unreasonable.


Ditto against you.

BTW, I wasn't cheating, I just happened to have notes in the back of my book, and if they were seen, I would have been accused of cheating.

Sorry but unlike you, I am completely open to the possibility of prayer being true. Hell, I even once believed - just like you did - that it did work. I now don't but I'm open to the possibility. I just demand evidence for it. Your scenario isn't evidence for it, thus it doesn't convince me.

That doesn't mean I cannot change my mind. So please, don't be dishonest; don't pin your dishonest and unreasonable position on me.

This takes us back to the whole God gave us free will argument. He gave them the choice to follow and seek him and ask for his guidance and help.

If he just goes ahead and helps them, then they are none the wiser, save for being cured or whatever, and they continue on with the life they had before.

It's for everyones benefit that he asks for us to follow him.

Your a slave to your own emotions and thought processes, something the demiurge gave you. God will send you Gnosis so that you will be free from this bondage of thoughts and feelings, according to my spiritual path, you are all three at the same time, but one is pre-dominate in you, this can change however:

Hylic - Carnal natured and materialistic... This is the lowest of ignorance...

Psychic - Thought and Feeling centered, where your thought processes and emotional status lead not to a random response or free willed response of your choosing but rather a preemptive response (even if it is just a reflex, for aren't reflexes a response?) This is what most people are... To me Psychic is understood as being to Impulsive...

Pneumatic - The Spiritual seed of your "true self..." As a Christian Gnostic it is the Christhood, Christ Within, The Christos, The Cosmic Christ.

Keep in mind these vary in degrees, you are all three but one is pre-dominate in you, you can change that once you begin to know, how do you begin to know? Well I just told you but also by god's grace as well.

The higher you are on this scale the more free will you have, very few have become 100% Pneumatic though (E.g. Jesus Christ) partly because, our compassion for those who are still ignorant holds us back, this is not a negative statement but a statement of truth, we want each other to be free the problem is how we go about doing that!

This message is a spiritual one not for the hopeless disbeliever. Which for you pre-predominately psychics out there is something you do not have to be, unless you want to. Trust me this may all seem contradictory and crazy but I gaurentee you the understanding of what i told you comes to you throught the what I call "The Spirit of God."

Rust: You want to know why these people starve? It is because they let the world step upon them and starve them. Instead of letting the spirit of War that God imbues every man with stand up and fight for their basic survival, they choose their fears. They let their fear of death bring death upon them. They survive a little while, conforming to the fear of retaliation for fighting, instead of risking life and limb in the trust of their heart, which screams to stand tall against their oppression so that they may survive as God wishes them to.

If these men asked God to feed them, they would be convicted to fight for food. They would know who to fight, where to attack, when to do so, and they would win. Babe Ruth batted well, but God bats 1.000.
And Christians wonder why their beliefs are attacked, or why I think it's a sick, sick religion.

It's their own fault they're starving! Damn niggers with their "boo hoo, I have AIDS, boo hoo hoo, I want food"... if only they would pray and then kick the shit out of... um... their situation? The men with machine guns? The entire world? I dunno, but dammit, I'm not gonna help them until they help themselves! It's not like they've ever tried that before, lazy coons...

:p

And Christians wonder why their beliefs are attacked, or why I think it's a sick, sick religion.

It's their own fault they're starving! Damn niggers with their "boo hoo, I have AIDS, boo hoo hoo, I want food"... if only they would pray and then kick the shit out of... um... their situation? The men with machine guns? The entire world? I dunno, but dammit, I'm not gonna help them until they help themselves! It's not like they've ever tried that before, lazy coons...

:p

Don't misrepresent my beliefs, please. I don't think it's their own fault that they are starving. I know though, that if they asked God for a solution, they would be given one. It might take patience, resolve, daring...but they'd have one. As to my helping of them...I'm on the other side of the globe and unable to travel outside of the country.

Could I donate to charities that try to help them? Sure I could, but the governments over there take it and leave the impoverished to starve some more.

I'll be able to travel in a few years. I can't really do anything until then.

I questioned what you said. If your beliefs are so fragile and silly that simple scientific evidence or just plain elementary critical thinking is an "attack" against them, then that's a pretty compelling argument against holding such beliefs in the first place...

I believe that this is officially the best thing you've ever said, Rust.

Wait, no, I think I like this more:

Learn English? No, I think you mean "learn to weasel your way out of things by beating the ever-loving shit out of a dictionary".

Everyone's Piling on Hexadecimal i see...

Everyone's Piling on Hexadecimal i see...

Yeah Man - its kinda rough. I can totally understand some of the things he's saying though. Rust - all you're doing is misinterpreting/misquoting his words and skewing them so it fits your beliefs. Words do not have concrete meanings.

Rust - all you're doing is misinterpreting/misquoting his words and skewing them so it fits your beliefs. Words do not have concrete meanings.

I'm doing no such thing, in fact it seems he admitted I was correct because he was arguing something entirely different. Try to pay attention before you attack me.

P.S. I love how you claim I'm misinterpreting his words while then claiming that "words do not have concrete meanings"...

If there's anything the OT teaches about the warrior spirit of God, it's that He doesn't put up with oppressors.

Any day now God is going to rid us of the 1% of humans who control 80% of the wealth in the world?

God has put up with oppressors, hell even encouraged them in the old testemant. Slavery IS oppression. If you are half as versed in the bible as you proclaim, I will not have to point out the problem there, by posting the numerous "thumbs up" god gives slavery.

To the OP, I am sure it has been said already, but I will say it again:

I almost feel sorry for you. Your desire to be close with this figment has grown so desperate you associate something as trivial as what you describe, as being a testimony of God's love.

The fact that you cannot find a better personal example, or even a larger example, would make me sad for you, if I were capable of having sympathy for the willfully ignorant.

Words do not have concrete meanings.

rofl

hahahahahaha

Tell that to Webster's.

I had to come back......

The more I thought about it the more it pissed me off.

Let us say, God is real, and he DID keep your teacher from finding your notes. What kind of a complete asshole does that make God? This makes him an asshole of monumental assholiness.

The fact that this God ignores the prays of millions of wheelchair bound theists, the prayers of millions of starving mother's holding their skeletal shallow-breathing. eyes-bulging, dying infants in their arms, the prayers of millions of terminally ill cancer patients......................but shows up to save you from a minor reprimand, or possible detention or even expuslsion, displays God as the unjust asshole he truly is.

Since, you have the big guy's ear; Try asking for something a bit more substantial, you selfish prick.

Don't misrepresent my beliefs, please. I don't think it's their own fault that they are starving.

Rust: You want to know why these people starve? It is because they let the world step upon them and starve them.
Kinda hard to see how it can't be their fault.

I'm Agnostic, but BrokeProphet, isn't that a narrow definition of "god", that "god" isn't just a force (like the Holy Ghost in the Trinity)

I'm Agnostic

Translation:

a) Pussy.

b) [non-hardline] Atheist

I'm Agnostic, but BrokeProphet, isn't that a narrow definition of "god", that "god" isn't just a force (like the Holy Ghost in the Trinity)

What narrow definition of God. He claimed this force heard his plea and kept him from getting caught "cheating". This force must be entirely random when it answers prayers (that is to say, starving infants do not get priority over say preventing someone from dentention.) If this is the case, I can easily just call it probability. If this force has the slightest bit of intelligence to it (as most religions, and all major religions, believe) then it is an asshole.

Or, shit just happens, and no amount of pleading with a supernatural external force is going to change the course of random events.

---------------------

I'm sorry, I don't believe in agnostics. I do not believe human beings are, in practice, capable of such ambiguous position. It does look good on paper, and can be used to trump an argument or three, but I just don't believe in them.

I can niether prove nor disprove they even exist. (yes, that JUST happened)

You do not believe there is a God. You do not practice religion. You do not practice theism. You are therefor without theism, or atheist, if you will.

http://cectic.com/comics/138.png

http://cectic.com/comics/138.png

LOL.

Nice.

Translation:

a) Pussy.

b) [non-hardline] Atheist

lol :p

I remember the ED article that Agnostics=pussies.

What narrow definition of God. He claimed this force heard his plea and kept him from getting caught "cheating".

saying that whether god is personified and does that smithing thing, rather than it simply subtly influences people, etc.

This force must be entirely random when it answers prayers (that is to say, starving infants do not get priority over say preventing someone from dentention.)

heh...."God works in mysterious ways"

If this is the case, I can easily just call it probability. If this force has the slightest bit of intelligence to it (as most religions, and all major religions, believe) then it is an asshole.

Or, shit just happens, and no amount of pleading with a supernatural external force is going to change the course of random events.

---------------------

that sounds like something Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins wrote :p

I'm sorry, I don't believe in agnostics. I do not believe human beings are, in practice, capable of such ambiguous position. It does look good on paper, and can be used to trump an argument or three, but I just don't believe in them.

I can niether prove nor disprove they even exist. (yes, that JUST happened)

You do not believe there is a God. You do not practice religion. You do not practice theism. You are therefor without theism, or atheist, if you will.

Odd argument, though I heard that before...

I'm sorry, I don't believe in agnostics. I do not believe human beings are, in practice, capable of such ambiguous position. It does look good on paper, and can be used to trump an argument or three, but I just don't believe in them.

Did I ever tell you about this one day me and my mother were strolling down my hometown’s avenue? Well we were walking, right, and she turned to me and she asked me if she had left the kitchen light on at home. I said I didn’t know. I know it is amazing, and probably unbelievable, but I said I didn’t know. It took all my power to reach that undecided state, where I was in an equilibrium of unknowingness, and where I neither believed the light was on nor off because neither belief was justified, but it really happened. I almost collapsed, but it happened. And from that day forward, son, I believed in miracles.

Kinda hard to see how it can't be their fault.

I don't see how it makes it their fault that they let it happen. Ask the rape victim if it's their fault for letting someone bigger and more intimidating force them into something...fear can cripple. It isn't their fault, but they're the only ones that can help themselves.

http://cectic.com/comics/138.png

Huh, funny. If I pray for a couple minutes, asking Christ to remove any physical pain I have, it goes away. This same technique allowed me to fast for 3 weeks when I was too poor to buy food without any stomach cramps, etc.

Is this just some neuro-psychological effect? Maybe. It works though, so I don't really give a shit why. It's cheaper than pills, and doesn't harm my liver. :P

I don't see how it makes it their fault that they let it happen. Ask the rape victim if it's their fault for letting someone bigger and more intimidating force them into something...fear can cripple. It isn't their fault, but they're the only ones that can help themselves.
:confused:

I had something else to say about God and helping people but I forgot and it doesn't really matter I don't have the energy.

Is this just some neuro-psychological effect? Maybe. It works though, so I don't really give a shit why. It's cheaper than pills, and doesn't harm my liver. :P

Well, you claim it works. Could it be possible that it works? Maybe. You haven't proven it though, so I don't really give a shit what you claim. It's a unsubstantiated notion that goes against pretty much all we know of prayer in scientific studies.

If you start believing in god because this you will go to hell.

And no im not religious I just have believes, karma is one of them.

that sounds like something Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins wrote :p

Odd argument, though I heard that before...

If you are accusing me of plaigerism, just say it.

I have not studied Sam Harris, and have read little of Dawkins outside of papers he has done on memetics.

The agnostic argument is my own.

Did I ever tell you about this one day me and my mother were strolling down my hometown’s avenue? Well we were walking, right, and she turned to me and she asked me if she had left the kitchen light on at home. I said I didn’t know. I know it is amazing, and probably unbelievable, but I said I didn’t know. It took all my power to reach that undecided state, where I was in an equilibrium of unknowingness, and where I neither believed the light was on nor off because neither belief was justified, but it really happened. I almost collapsed, but it happened. And from that day forward, son, I believed in miracles.

Nice story, fortunately for you, being "agnostic" about leaving the light on or not, had no direct negative consequece for you.

Now say you are walking down the street and your mother says "Did you leave the lawnmower on inside the garage with our cat muffin locked in there?" and you did not honestly know, you would probably race home and check it out. You would not be comfortable in your undecided state, would you?

The morale of MY story is agnostics fall to Pascal's Wager...

And if an "agnostic" doesn't practice theism, then they are without theism, or atheist.

I still don't understand the problem. What's ambiguous of agnosticism? It's saying that we can't know, as a matter of fact, whether god's exist or don't exist.

That's not ambiguous - their ontological position is clear; and that's not falling to Pascal's wager in the least.

Even Dawkins and Sam Harris have to concede this point as scientists.

You would not be comfortable in your undecided state, would you?

I never said that agnosticism was always useful or always a safe position to hold. My post was simply a sarcastic mockery of your belief that no one can be an agnostic because people are too dumb to be capable of abstaining from judgment. You looked as if you were giving a good impersonation of one of those theists who cannot accept that atheists exist and who furthermore feel slightly intellectually intimidated by them.

The morale of MY story is agnostics fall to Pascal's Wager...

Let us restate this nonsense in theological terms, since we are discussing positions on the existence of God, namely, agnosticism, atheism, and theism. Pascal’s Wager is that it is safer to believe in God than to not believe in God, because if God exists and you do not believe he exists, then you are in a lot of trouble, whereas if God does not exist, but you believe that he does, your belief has no bearings on your life. Now, you yourself have pointed out in many threads that this presupposes a single model of God, when there are infinite possible variations, such as a God that favours atheists over theists and agnostics, or, indeed, a God that favours agnostics over theists and atheists. Everyone falls to some form of the Wager, then, but in such a way that the Wager becomes meaningless for everyone and need not be taken into consideration when forming beliefs about the existence of God.

And if an "agnostic" doesn't practice theism, then they are without theism, or atheist.

Concerning a God -- since I believe that you can hold different positions for different gods, being an atheist about one, an agnostic about another, and an ignostic about yet another -- I do not believe that you are an atheist unless you hold the belief that said God does not exist. An agnostic may hold neither the belief that that God exists, nor the belief that that God does not exist, and is thus not committed to atheism.

I still don't understand the problem. What's ambiguous of agnosticism? It's saying that we can't know, as a matter of fact, whether god's exist or don't exist.

That's not ambiguous - their ontological position is clear; and that's not falling to Pascal's wager in the least.

Even Dawkins and Sam Harris have to concede this point as scientists.

In spite of my beliefs and practices (which work for me), I still remain an agnostic for the sole reason that it can't be proven/disproven. It can't be shown as factual or fantasy unless God chooses to be like, "I'm right here, motherfuckers."

Agnosticism is correct. I recognize that. It is just not very practical. There are MANY, MANY things that cannot be proven or disproven, that do not get near as much attention as God.

An invisible pink unicorn COULD be staring at you right now. Magical gremlins COULD be hiding your remote from you. Ghosts could be drinking your spirit energy while you sleep.

To get along in life a person has to assume certian things to be true or untrue, even if these things cannot be proven. You HAVE to lean more one way than the other.

For example, nobody can prove that a dimensional invisible foot eating monster is real.....BUT you cannot prove that it is not real.

If you see this person abed, to afraid to get out....they are a TRUE agnostic and remain completely nuetral to the possibilty of the foot eating creature. If, however, you see an agnostic out of bed, they clearly lean more stongly that this creature does not exist.

Agnosticism is simply not practical.

Agnosticism is correct. I recognize that. It is just not very practical. There are MANY, MANY things that cannot be proven or disproven, that do not get near as much attention as God.

An invisible pink unicorn COULD be staring at you right now. Magical gremlins COULD be hiding your remote from you. Ghosts could be drinking your spirit energy while you sleep.

To get along in life a person has to assume certian things to be true or untrue, even if these things cannot be proven. You HAVE to lean more one way than the other.

For example, nobody can prove that a dimensional invisible foot eating monster is real.....BUT you cannot prove that it is not real.

If you see this person abed, to afraid to get out....they are a TRUE agnostic and remain completely nuetral to the possibilty of the foot eating creature. If, however, you see an agnostic out of bed, they clearly lean more stongly that this creature does not exist.

Agnosticism is simply not practical.

What? It's practical to assume things with no proof, are not.