and they don't really experience their so called higher states but just conceive of them?
In taoism, the tao is said to be completely undefinable, any definition, any label, any word or name ascribed to it, will fall short of it, its nothingness, but even saying its nothingness or calling it nothingness would be incorrect and a misunderstanding. It is the same with hindu gurus trying to define god or higher states/higher consciousness. Perhaps the gurus and sages who talk about enlightenment, the tao, higher consciousness etc, claim to have achieved it but are really just creating a concept that they claim is real? saying its not this, its not that, denying any definition and description again and again saying that its completely incomprehensible to normal consciousness, so that they can say they have achieved it and experienced it and then they will be treated as gurus, and everyone will consult them about enlightenment and be their students and follow everything they say, possibly also while they enjoy the high place in society of a priestly class such as, in
hindu society; the brahmin caste.

This is the age of fake teachers. There are loads of "gurus" and "masters" peddling their wares. The true masters you'll meet only when you can go to other planes of existence yrself, like the astral realm.

We are all on the road to sainthood, and we will all get there eventually. Some of us are farther along than others, and look over our shoulders and say "Dudes--there is something even cooler up ahead."

That said, there are fakers and frauds in every field of endeavor, I think. Those who operate in the realm of spirituality and/or religion do seem more blameworthy than, say, a crooked lawyer.

But the Age of Pisces was the age of sages and whatnot. In this, the Age of Aquarius, many of us seek to empower others, stress that we ourselves are not special. Both Walsch and Chopra are very clear on this point.

We are all in this --whatever you conceive "this" to be -- together, and no one is better than any one else. We all need to speak our truth, with all the clarity and love and courage and compassion we can muster.

We are all on the road to sainthood, and we will all get there eventually. Some of us are farther along than others, and look over our shoulders and say "Dudes--there is something even cooler up ahead."

That said, there are fakers and frauds in every field of endeavor, I think. Those who operate in the realm of spirituality and/or religion do seem more blameworthy than, say, a crooked lawyer.

But the Age of Pisces was the age of sages and whatnot. In this, the Age of Aquarius, many of us seek to empower others, stress that we ourselves are not special. Both Walsch and Chopra are very clear on this point.

We are all in this --whatever you conceive "this" to be -- together, and no one is better than any one else. We all need to speak our truth, with all the clarity and love and courage and compassion we can muster.

It's more likely we're going to speak our hatred with guns, bombs, tanks, missiles, and nukes...but what the fuck, let's give love a try? Bullets can't pierce love, can they? ;)

Quantum theory provides us with a striking illustration of the fact that we can fully understand a connection though we can only speak of it in images and parables.


Werner Heisenberg (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Werner_Heisenberg)

Anyone else see the hilarious connection between the topic of this thread, and all the posters who have replied so far? ;)

Anyways, yeah, for all you know such a person could be talking out their asshole, just straight up lying. Don't listen to other people, find things out for yourself.

Anyone else see the hilarious connection between the topic of this thread, and all the posters who have replied so far? ;)

Anyways, yeah, for all you know such a person could be talking out their asshole, just straight up lying. Don't listen to other people, find things out for yourself.

Nice character assassination Obbe. ;P

I ain't a sage though. I'm a troll that happens to have faith in some sort of All Powerful and a dude named Yeshua. I'm still here, 99% of the time, with the sole intent of fucking with people. After all, the purpose of life is to live. And living demands enjoyment. :)

HAIL SATAN! SUCK MY COCK!

This world and age are abound in conmen of all sorts. The easiest, most powerful, and widely spread form of deception is called religion.

Want to create an army of underage sex slaves....God is your answer.

Want to convince someone to commit suicide....God is your answer.

Want to make millions and only work 1 hour, 1 day a week....God is your answer.

Want to wield considerable polititcal power with an army of voting sheep....God is your answer.

Religion/Enlightnement/Spirituality is nothing more than a nice comforting idea, used by deceptive assholes to gain any or all of the aforementioned, by manipulating the fretful, foolish, and/or weak minded.

Religion is a crutch to the follower, and a tool to the leader. That is the only difference between sheep and shepards. You may think you dont follow, and then go out an buy a spiritual guidebook for the low, low price of 19.95. Act now and we will throw in some magic candles and spirit salts for free.

I imagine there are those few out there who STILL think they are not being willfully ignorant at someone else's urging and for their benefit. To them I would say, bullshit. Even if you are a carrier of the meme of deception, without symptom, you are still contagious, and those you infect will more than likely play into the hands of the shepard. If it were otherwise, I would not hear from you on this subject, on this or any other forum.

To quote an asshole, Cheers :)

i actually gone through the thinking process what broke prophet said.. and i always blamed god for whatever happened in this world.

I come from a hindu family.. every religion calls itself TRUE and the ONLY PATH.

But hindu's say VERIFY everything, even if its GOD who leads you to nirvana.

its brilliant idea to me.

If god comes and says., hey boy here your enlightement, i will ask him to prove himself if he is really GOD.

So hinduism is WAY ahead of its time.

And it also says DONT BLINDLY BELIEVE. hindu's say dont blindly believe any religion or god, verify fully.

MOST people END their thinking process of GOD at logic.

In vedas( hindu scriptures), it says LOGIC CANT PROVE GOD. Actually vedas say what can and cannot be acheivable through your senses. So now you begin to see what is BEYOND our senses.


AUM. shanti shanti shanti hi.

Anyone else see the hilarious connection between the topic of this thread, and all the posters who have replied so far? ;)


I'm blind...

I'm blind...

I would bet that many of the regular posters who show an undying hate for anything related to God/spirituality/religion would, I think, also be under the opinion that the OP's description of con men is also a great description of the writers of the first five replies, myself included.

I would bet that many of the regular posters who show an undying hate for anything related to God/spirituality/religion would, I think, also be under the opinion that the OP's description of con men is also a great description of the writers of the first five replies, myself included.

Oooooh, haha, I gotcha.

I'm not sure if I made myself 100% clear in my post or if everyone understood what I was trying to say.
If you have read about taoism, you'd know that the sages and masters of taoism talk about the tao as being completely indefinable, that any word, name or description falls short of the tao, and so on. What if they were simply men that were just pushing this concept away from understandability again and again, that they hadn't really experienced or even properly conceptualized what they were saying, all they were doing, was just saying 'there is something, an ultimate truth, that is beyond all definability, and I have experienced it'. It's like intellectual laziness - you don't have to use real logic or critical thinking skills like with sciences and modern western philosophies, you can just point at the sky and use the dragon in my garage argument and get away with it under the guise of religion and metaphysics - unlike with say, physics, where you actually have to learn rules and formulas and facts, and use logical and scientific methods and thinking.

Perhaps the sages did not fully realize that they hadn't experienced such a thing, or they just didn't care - they enjoyed the prestige and power of their positions in society, or their personalities were inclined to be deceptive and manipulative, without having any remorse.

Perhaps it is an inborn thing, where some people are genetically/instinctivley inclined to be this sort of leader and people like this have been born since the year dot. I suppose they would be kind of like psychopaths that are born that way, and wired to be manipulative and deceptive and not be remorseful or troubled about it. They realize that other people have certain traits that they don't have, they see these as weaknesses, and exploit them.

So while these conmen are actually the ones who are insensitive to spiritual and transcendental concepts and needs, they articulate them and act as if they have experienced and championed them. Everbody else looks up to them and tries to acheive and experience what the sages say they have acheived and experienced, because they crave those answers to life's questions and want to be enlightened. The 'gurus', on the other hand, don't give a shit about all that, realise that alot of other people do give a shit, and so they exploit it. If you read about the higher states of consciousness that yogis claim to have access too, they are described to the point where they cannot just simply be a phenomena of the mind and that they are truly transcendental, which makes students think that they have to get to the point where they are experiencing states which were previously inconceivable to them and beyond their imagination. But maybe the yogis don't really experience such incredible states, without really realising or caring that their teachings and descriptions imply that the states they experience really are of such an incredible nature? It could have the effect of students constantly seeking and never being satisfied because they expect the higher states to be so incredible and inconceivable and nothing they achieve satisfies their expectations.

In indian society, the preistly class, or the brahmins, were the most estimed and privelaged caste, because they were supposed to be sages with knowledge of the divine and power over even the gods. Meanwhile much lower castes were considered untouchable and lived in abject poverty. Maybe the brahmins used the concept of karma to justify the iniqiuties and injustices of their society, and the fact that they got all the best things in life while everyone else was at best grovelling at their feet and at worst living in their own filth. The brahmin caste may actually as a genetic lineage been men who were born as the conmen/leader personality, or perhaps they just did it because they were born into a wealthy and privileged life style and high status, so they just did whatever they could to keep themselves there and exploit everyone else.

If you have read about taoism, you'd know that the sages and masters of taoism talk about the tao as being completely indefinable, that any word, name or description falls short of the tao, and so on. What if they were simply men that were just pushing this concept away from understandability again and again, that they hadn't really experienced or even properly conceptualized what they were saying, all they were doing, was just saying 'there is something, an ultimate truth, that is beyond all definability, and I have experienced it'. It's like intellectual laziness - you don't have to use real logic or critical thinking skills like with sciences and modern western philosophies, you can just point at the sky and use the dragon in my garage argument and get away with it under the guise of religion and metaphysics - unlike with say, physics, where you actually have to learn rules and formulas and facts, and use logical and scientific methods and thinking.

I happen to practice Taoism myself. I believe that, although Tao may be unnamable and incomprehensible, that's not the reason it was included in the writings. I think it's more to prove the point that it's not gonna help us if we do figure it out. According to EVERYONE, no matter what God you believe in, he's all-powerful and you can't change anything that he does. So why should we try? We just drive ourselves insane trying.

Herein lies the meaning of our existance. Our purpose isn't to spend our lives searching for a big man in the sky, it's to live. The entire goal for us being here, as far as I'm concerned, is to be in a state of pure emotion. Be it love, hate, pain, pleasure, whatever. The best we can hope for is the moment where we can't focus on anything but what we feel. Taoism isn't meant to explain anything. It's meant to help you live in that moment of real life all the time.

The entire goal for us being here, as far as I'm concerned, is to be in a state of pure emotion. Be it love, hate, pain, pleasure, whatever.

This is off topic, but I'm very stoned right now, and what you said reminded me of this idea I had some time ago. It probably came to me while thinking of music in relation to the rest of reality.

Music, simplified, is just various vibration frequencies strung together in a mathematical rhythm on a time line. Different notes and their higher octaves are just slower and faster vibration frequencies. Alone, these notes don't mean too much to most people, but when played with other notes they make us feel different. Some notes sound really good together. Some sound sad. Some sound awful, etc.

String more and more together, complicate the math much more and you have a tune. And tunes can be categorized themselves, into happy tunes, sad tunes, terrible tunes, etc. All of this subjectively, of course.

Are our lives much different?

Our emotions could be described in the same "vibrational frequency" way as music can be. Emotions also can compile and become complicated. They also run along the time line of our lives. At different times during your life, you will feel different. When you stand back and view your entire life, it is it's own unique emotional 'song'. Different peoples lives could be described differently and again, subjectively.

Neat to think about.

It's because music is pure emotion put into a form that we can understand on this plane. Of course it'd follow our lives pretty closely. We're always experiencing an emotion, no matter what happens. Music is always playing a note (or a lack thereof - it's the same thing) no matter what happens.

It's because music is pure emotion put into a form that we can understand on this plane.

I'm pretty sure all matter can be explained in the same way as well. As different frequencies, math.