I was recently reading Wallace Stevens' Sunday Morning and took a very profound meaning from it. His poem is conversational; the speaker contests the views of an affluent lady who possesses an anxiety about forgoing the opportunity of church on a Sunday.

What I mainly took from Stevens' argument is that heaven, or paradise, is supposedly eternally beautiful; everything is perfect, beauty is immortal. This is the impression I have got - at least - from the Judeo-Christian interpretation of heaven. Yet, therein lies a paradox, and Stevens' point: for us, as humans, to have a concept of the beautiful, we must have a concept of the un-beautiful, as it were. Stevens says "death is the mother of beauty" - he pertains to the migration of birds to exemplify this point: when "the birds are gone" we yearn for their return; so that when they return, we welcome them.

Indeed, if this is to be considered, we have to acknowledge that heaven is a human conception, since it is only natural to imagine heaven as portrayed displaying the most superlative elements:


Does ripe fruit never fall? Or do the boughs
Hang always heavy in that perfect sky,
Unchanging, yet so like our perishing earth,
[...]
Why set the pear upon those river banks
Or spice the shores with odors of the plum?


How, then, is it possible that we can possess any comprehension of an afterlife when no one has ever been there to experience this paradoxical eternity of perpetual beauty, fixed in time?

Heaven is a myth designed to help us, the most selfish, narcissistic, and greedy species on the planet, deal with the notion of death and eternity.

"What happens when I die?", we ask ourselves, petrified with uncertainty. Nothing, I say, nothing...

We merely "live in an old chaos of the sun."

I think it would be quite easy for human beings to come up with the idea of unending beauty. With ease I imagine ancient man shivering in a freezing cave whining out in the night at his hunger pangs. It is then the notion of immortality strikes him. What if the summer never ends, the herds never go south, the plants never die. I think an afterlife is something quite easy to image.

As for myself, if this existence does turn out to be transitory, well then I am quite happy to have shared this phenomena with all of you.

EDIT: I noticed I was typing up my post while you were editing yours. Yes, I do agree with you that the Judeo-Christian notion of an afterlife is just simply a product to help you cope with this "miserable" existence.

Yeah, sorry about the editing thing. Should have previewed it before posting, but needed to get this off my chest.

While I myself may be an atheist, I am not denying the existance of an afterlife; only the Judeo-Christian afterlife.

for us, as humans, to have a concept of the beautiful, we must have a concept of the un-beautiful, as it were.
I've never understood why people thought this. Maybe it's because "beautiful" is a more abstract thing; it's easier to see why this makes no sense if you consider, say, taste. You don't have to eat Brussels sprouts for chocolate to stimulate your tongue's reward system. These concepts are functions of brain wiring, not things that need to be defined through opposites.

How, then, is it possible that we can possess any comprehension of an afterlife when no one has ever been there to experience this paradoxical eternity of perpetual beauty, fixed in time?

And most importantly - How, then, is it possible that we can make use of our awareness faculties to *experience* perpetual beauty, fixed in time, when our brain has ceased to function?

Interesting responses, guys. Keep them coming!

And most importantly - How, then, is it possible that we can make use of our awareness faculties to *experience* perpetual beauty, fixed in time, when our brain has ceased to function?

Our brains are just parts of our physical bodies, which our Essential Selves or souls use to manifest on this plane.

We may discorporate--indeed, we do many times--but life, consciousness itself, itself is eternal.

"Indeed, if this is to be considered, we have to acknowledge that "DEATH "is a human conception, since it is only natural to imagine" DEATH "as portrayed displaying the most" fearful "elements":

"What happens when I die?", we ask ourselves, petrified with uncertainty. Nothing, I say, nothing...


Au contraire! What dies? is what I ask. Fortfied by the certainty of e=mc squared:D! I am composed of eternal energy, energy that was never created, indestructible! At the point of death, what portion of that energy is destroyed? None, I say, None!

Namaste;)

"Indeed, if this is to be considered, we have to acknowledge that "DEATH "is a human conception, since it is only natural to imagine" DEATH "as portrayed displaying the most" fearful "elements":



Au contraire! What dies? is what I ask. Fortfied by the certainty of e=mc squared:D! I am composed of eternal energy, energy that was never created, indestructible! At the point of death, what portion of that energy is destroyed? None, I say, None!

Namaste;)

Yup, energy, in the form of matter. That matter will rot in the ground. Nothing will be destroyed.

The Qur'an contains many references to an afterlife in Eden for those who do good deeds.

Heaven itself is commonly described in the Qu'ran in verse 35 of Surah Al-Ra’d: "The parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised! Beneath it flow rivers. Perpetual is the fruits thereof and the shade therein. Such is the End of the Righteous; and the end of the unbelievers is the Fire."

Since Islam rejects the concept of original sin, Muslims believe that all human beings are born pure. In Islam, therefore, a child who dies automatically goes to heaven, regardless of the religion of his or her parents.

Although sharing some similarities, the concept of heaven in Islam is different in many respects to that found in Judaism and Christianity. Chiefly, Heaven (Jannah) is described in physical terms, using jewellery, and food The Islamic texts describes life for its immortal inhabitants, one that is happy..without hurt, sorrow, fear or shame .. where every wish is fulfilled.

There are many different layers/levels of heaven concerning Islam. Which are also not the same as the physical one.

Really, this is something that I've just given up on. I just refuse to think about it. I'm going to live my life the best that I can, and when I die I'll find out if there is an afterlife. Any discussion about any afterlife is pointless because there's absolutely no way to prove or refute any one idea or theory or belief.

However, I like the idea of reincarnation the most. I like the idea of spending multiple lifetimes with the people closest to me and getting wiser all the time.

"Indeed, if this is to be considered, we have to acknowledge that "DEATH "is a human conception, since it is only natural to imagine" DEATH "as portrayed displaying the most" fearful "elements":



Au contraire! What dies? is what I ask. Fortfied by the certainty of e=mc squared:D! I am composed of eternal energy, energy that was never created, indestructible! At the point of death, what portion of that energy is destroyed? None, I say, None!

Namaste;)

Ah, the reincarnation of Walt Whitman. Have you read Song of Myself? It's good :).

I believe that the mind is part of the body. Reality, as it is perceived by humans, is the result of the mind coming into contact with the world. Beyond human perception, who knows what reality looks like or is?

Thus, I deduce that when the body dies - i.e. the heart stops beating blood around your body and eventually all of your organs stop working, most importantly your brain - the mind also ceases to exist. I don't believe in the fabled 'soul' or 'spirit', unless you were to consider the mind as these so-called spiritual elements. Yet, when your brain no longer works, how can the mind possibly continue to work also? It can't, is the simple answer.

However, we can talk about eternity as the perpetual passing on of energy from one thing to the next - for example: when you die, your body disintegrates into the earth, this then fertilizes the ground, new grass grows, animals eat the grass, we kill and eat the animals, and so forth; or '[t]he smallest sprout shows that there really is no death', says Whitman.
This is all fairy basic stuff. But the thing we can't seem to get our heads around as humans is the ending of consciousness. Consciousness cannot be passed on through energy. I am not contesting the idea of an afterlife - on the contrary, there is always life after death - I, instead, am contesting the Juedo-Christian afterlife. That we ascend to another realm that mirrors all of the beauty and brilliance of the world of the living, totally devoid of bad. Surely, another paradox, if we did indeed inhabit a paradise it would not be a paradise for long due to our inherent qualities of conflict, malice, and selfishness.

[As you can probably tell I'm studying American Literature at the moment :p]

Maybe the reason we can perceive of a heaven of infinite beauty is because it isn't our first stop. We come to earth first.

I am not entirely clear as to the reasons why a good and loving god would allow some of the terrible evil that happens in the world, but this at least may be part of it.

After a world like this. A heaven of infinite peace and happiness doesn't seem too difficult to imagine.

Maybe the reason we can perceive of a heaven of infinite beauty is because it isn't our first stop. We come to earth first.

I am not entirely clear as to the reasons why a good and loving god would allow some of the terrible evil that happens in the world, but this at least may be part of it.

After a world like this. A heaven of infinite peace and happiness doesn't seem too difficult to imagine.

Actually, I think its impossible to imagine.

Prove me wrong.