View Full Version : Your enlistment "contract" is not a contract
Trueborn Vorpal
2008-05-20, 05:01
It's a simple document. It isn't notorized or anything of the sort.
Check it out: DoD Form 4/1 (http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/infomgt/forms/eforms/dd0004.pdf)
Notice the wording: "DOCUMENT"
This is important for anyone thinking of enlisting. I can't believe the number of enlistees that have been fucked over for enlistment promotions and bonuses.
Recruiters are salesmen and will (generally) promise anything to get you to come aboard. Whatever they promise, great; make sure you get these promises in writing if you'd ever like them to come to fruition. And don't just get them in writing, get them in writing ON the DoD Form 4/1 document or on a second piece of paper which can be attached to the form.
XiPPiLLi
2008-05-20, 05:53
My recruiter screwed me over.
You realize afterwards that they never once lie, they just sort of...bend the truth. I've heard it so many times...
Recruiters suck.
Either of you geniuses looking for any real estate investment opportunities? I've got all kinds of shit for sale......bridges, swampland, some moldy shmegma that gathers at this one spot on Meta's hunch that he always seems to miss in the shower. What do you say.....call within the hour and we'll throw in a case of chinese yoyos made out of emu livers.
Yup, ya gotta feel all safe and warm at night knowing our "soldiers" have such savy life skills in their repetoire as they go about their duties.
Trueborn Vorpal
2008-05-20, 08:51
Either of you geniuses looking for any real estate investment opportunities? I've got all kinds of shit for sale......bridges, swampland, some moldy shmegma that gathers at this one spot on Meta's hunch that he always seems to miss in the shower. What do you say.....call within the hour and we'll throw in a case of chinese yoyos made out of emu livers.
Yup, ya gotta feel all safe and warm at night knowing our "soldiers" have such savy life skills in their repetoire as they go about their duties.
How does anything that you stated have anything to do with the topic at hand?
jackketch
2008-05-20, 10:29
How does anything that you stated have anything to do with the topic at hand?
Well he was pointing out that if people need to be told by you that it is a document not a contract then perhaps reading comprehension and maybe general intelligence among recruitees is rather low. How is that NOT pertinent to the topic at hand??!
Trueborn Vorpal
2008-05-20, 11:31
maybe general intelligence among recruitees is rather low.
Unfortunately, this is usually the case. I believe the required ASVAB score to enlist in US army infantry is 33. Last I heard. It may be 40 but waiverable down to 33. The marine recruiting requirements are only slightly more stringent (besides the physical requirements.)
However, to say that everyone in the military is bone-headed is either pure ignorance or a trolling tactic. The requirements to get into programs such as interpreter, nuclear tech, or cryptography basically require college degrees or an equivalent level of training. They GIVE this training, mind you, but you have to possess the learning capacity for it.
Unfortunately, this is usually the case. I believe the required ASVAB score to enlist in US army infantry is 33. Last I heard. It may be 40 but waiverable down to 33. The marine recruiting requirements are only slightly more stringent (besides the physical requirements.)
However, to say that everyone in the military is bone-headed is either pure ignorance or a trolling tactic. The requirements to get into programs such as interpreter, nuclear tech, or cryptography basically require college degrees or an equivalent level of training. They GIVE this training, mind you, but you have to possess the learning capacity for it.
Thanks for translating Jack, it appears my posts in this forum may have to be even wordier than usual......considering I may have to elaborate more.
Discussing the intellect level of the average recruit ain't trolling, it's legitimate conversation. Here you are discussing the LOW standards for getting in, and that is my whole point.......how people blow up the life status of all people military, when in reality many times they are the runts of the litter. You and the media make it out to be as if the armed forces are made up of a bunch of Sgt. Yorks, when in reality its just a shitload of Gomer Pyles.
I'm curious Trueborn....what were YOUR ASVAB scores? 20 years ago as a junior in high school I scored a 98, and damn you shoulda seen the list of eligible jobs I had to pick from. Most of the other guys at the MEPS station had little papers the size of an index card, whereas mine was longer than my arm. I literally had my pick....electronics, nuclear, intel, etc, .....but I don't/didn't roll that way. Nope, it was 11 Bravo for me. Oops sorry, forgot I'm talking to REMF's here, not real soldiers. That is "infantry" for those pencil pushers following along at home. Pre-Desert Storm I had a pretty decent little idea mapped out. Infantry training, then Stinger training, then Airborne school, and with some luck and ability Ranger school. Go ahead True....wow us with your "knowledge" and "skills".
BTW, a side note to all of this. So far this whole things is failing. I mean really.....if you SERIOUSLY believed there was enough subject matter for a military forum you should have had at least 10 threads/ideas off the top of your head to put up. All the time you've had to think about it, all the chaos caused because of this "need"....and here you are with these pretty silly topics. Remember, the whole Totse world is watching you. Not to mention both Zok's and Acidmelt's integrity have been dragged down quite a few notches over all of this. You got a huge little albatross around your neck, and so far the weight of it has you in the prone position wiggling around with futility and insecurity. While you are down there, why not give us 20 while you are at it? ROFLMFAO!
Not to put any pressure on you and Xippili or anything..........
P.S. Ummmm yeah, Psych Ops was on that list too! :)
Slave of the Beast
2008-05-20, 16:38
P.S. Ummmm yeah, Psych Ops was on that list too! :)
You mean the ones where you torment the enemy in his dreams, implant images, view his battle plans, etc... like they did to Saddam in Gulf I? (http://www.paraview.com/press_releases/apr7_2003.htm)
You mean the ones where you torment the enemy in his dreams, implant images, view his battle plans, etc... like they did to Saddam in Gulf I? (http://www.paraview.com/press_releases/apr7_2003.htm)
EXACTLY like that. And it goes way beyond....win their hearts and minds or just burn their huts down. Nope, you know you have them when you start making them burn their OWN huts down......and making them believe its all for their own good to boot.
Trueborn Vorpal
2008-05-20, 20:33
I'll play.
My ASVAB score a year before I enlisted was also 98. They tried to push me into nuclear tech, but I went CTN (http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/navy/a/navyctn.htm) because it's revolves directly around things I enjoyed before joining the military.
Trueborn Vorpal
2008-05-20, 20:36
You mean the ones where you torment the enemy in his dreams, implant images, view his battle plans, etc... like they did to Saddam in Gulf I? (http://www.paraview.com/press_releases/apr7_2003.htm)
Hahaha "psychic spies."
Must have been trained at HAARP facilities along with the chemtrail pilots. :rolleyes:
So it's quite like any job then? Where at induction they'll utter lots of shiny words
"career progression... blablabla...shiny things...blablabla....more money...bla.."
That sounds fair enough. Most companies, Millitary or not, will make their company sound cooler than all the others.
My latest job? I'm still waiting for my pony.
Slave of the Beast
2008-05-21, 09:33
Hahaha "psychic spies."
Must have been trained at HAARP facilities along with the chemtrail pilots. :rolleyes:
Ever read this? (http://www.amazon.com/Men-Who-Stare-Goats/dp/0743241924)
To most reasonable human beings such activities seem ridiculous, insane, even, but then you've got to have a few screws loose to join up in the first place.
tatued30
2008-05-25, 20:19
Unfortunately, this is usually the case. I believe the required ASVAB score to enlist in US army infantry is 33. Last I heard. It may be 40 but waiverable down to 33. The marine recruiting requirements are only slightly more stringent (besides the physical requirements.)
However, to say that everyone in the military is bone-headed is either pure ignorance or a trolling tactic. The requirements to get into programs such as interpreter, nuclear tech, or cryptography basically require college degrees or an equivalent level of training. They GIVE this training, mind you, but you have to possess the learning capacity for it.
unless things have changed its 33 with a high school diploma and 50 with a GED pretty much the same for all except the AirForce and its 50 and they dont take GEDs
soul flayer
2008-05-25, 20:49
unless things have changed its 33 with a high school diploma and 50 with a GED pretty much the same for all except the AirForce and its 50 and they dont take GEDs
I'm pretty sure the AF takes GED's. I guy in my unit went to something called Youth Challenge, which is a program for kids who want to drop out of high school. When one graduates from Youth Challenge, they receive a GED. Most jobs in the Air Force, that have openings, require high scores, so it's unlikely you'll get in any time soon, with low scores.
tatued30
2008-05-29, 17:07
I'm pretty sure the AF takes GED's. I guy in my unit went to something called Youth Challenge, which is a program for kids who want to drop out of high school. When one graduates from Youth Challenge, they receive a GED. Most jobs in the Air Force, that have openings, require high scores, so it's unlikely you'll get in any time soon, with low scores.
well i did say unless things have changed lol, i got out in 97,so it has been awhile.
Whether it's a document or a contract doesn't matter, you signed your name on the dotted line, and THATS what matters. Once you put your signature on that dotted line, it then becomes a contract. You think if you were to go to court in order to break the "contract" on the basis that it's not a contract, but rather a document, that the court would rule in your favor? NO.
However, none of this is relevant. You should know by the time you ship out whats going on with any bonuses, promotions, etc. If you don't, then you obviously don't care enough about them. However, while in the DEP, you can write a formal letter to your recruiter requesting it be passed on through his chain of command to the appropriate officer in charge of recruiting I believe it is. In the letter, you just simply make a request to be discharged from the Delayed Entry Program, subsequently releasing you from your "contract."
Now sure, the officer in charge CAN deny your request, however, chances are slim. A poolee expressing great interest in being released from his contractual obligation is probably very highly likely to be seperated. They're not going to make you ship out, when chances are you're highly unmotivated, therefore being a crappy recruit during basic training, and if ever deployed, becoming a hazard to you, and others around you. Most requests will be honored, and you will not have to ship out.
Some go the route of just not showing up to MEPS on their ship date. Yes, this is illegal, yes you can go to jail, yes you can be hit with some hefty fines. However, this hasn't happened in AT LEAST the last 25 years. A kid that hadn't shipped out yet when I got out of bootcamp that I went to school with actually did this, after I told him about it. Nothing ever happened. So if you write a request and it's denied, just don't show up. No one is coming to arrest you. Your recruiters might harrass you constantly calling and showing up at your house, but other than that, your fine.
tribulus
2008-06-02, 01:27
I got a 99 on the asvab when I was 17, everyone told me to wait a year and join the Air Force or Army full time. I was young, dumb, and impatient and now I am stuck in a lame ass 13M unit (MLRS) for another year and a deployment and stop-loss within that time, so it will be a couple of years before I can reclass and do something worth my time.
Take it from me, if you score higher than 80, wait until you are 18 and pick something that is either really interesting to you or something that you can make lots of money at in the real world. Do not ever join a field artillery unit unless you like being bored for the rest of your life.
soul flayer
2008-06-03, 02:54
Whether it's a document or a contract doesn't matter, you signed your name on the dotted line, and THATS what matters. Once you put your signature on that dotted line, it then becomes a contract. You think if you were to go to court in order to break the "contract" on the basis that it's not a contract, but rather a document, that the court would rule in your favor? NO.
However, none of this is relevant. You should know by the time you ship out whats going on with any bonuses, promotions, etc. If you don't, then you obviously don't care enough about them. However, while in the DEP, you can write a formal letter to your recruiter requesting it be passed on through his chain of command to the appropriate officer in charge of recruiting I believe it is. In the letter, you just simply make a request to be discharged from the Delayed Entry Program, subsequently releasing you from your "contract."
Now sure, the officer in charge CAN deny your request, however, chances are slim. A poolee expressing great interest in being released from his contractual obligation is probably very highly likely to be seperated. They're not going to make you ship out, when chances are you're highly unmotivated, therefore being a crappy recruit during basic training, and if ever deployed, becoming a hazard to you, and others around you. Most requests will be honored, and you will not have to ship out.
Some go the route of just not showing up to MEPS on their ship date. Yes, this is illegal, yes you can go to jail, yes you can be hit with some hefty fines. However, this hasn't happened in AT LEAST the last 25 years. A kid that hadn't shipped out yet when I got out of bootcamp that I went to school with actually did this, after I told him about it. Nothing ever happened. So if you write a request and it's denied, just don't show up. No one is coming to arrest you. Your recruiters might harrass you constantly calling and showing up at your house, but other than that, your fine.
On top of all of that, the military can take away every cent they paid you, if do something to get other than honorable discharge/separation. People don't hear a lot about this, but people who get dishonorably discharged, are often in a lot of debt. This is the reason why.
I learned this during our Trainers class, when they were going over the choices a 3 level airman has, if they fail their career development courses, more than twice. You fail twice, and you piss off the wrong people in the process, they can take back all the money they spent on you.
DesertRebel
2008-06-08, 23:19
On top of all of that, the military can take away every cent they paid you, if do something to get other than honorable discharge/separation. People don't hear a lot about this, but people who get dishonorably discharged, are often in a lot of debt. This is the reason why.
I learned this during our Trainers class, when they were going over the choices a 3 level airman has, if they fail their career development courses, more than twice. You fail twice, and you piss off the wrong people in the process, they can take back all the money they spent on you.
From what I understand, I personally do not want to find out the hard truth myself, you have to seriously try and get a dishonorable discharge. The reasoning is the military doesn't want a guy to go around and go "Man! The [service] fucked me over! They ruined my life..." and goes on to tell why they ruined it, they can persuade 10+ people from not joining.
But! If they give you a Bad Conduct Discharge or something other than dishonorable, they figure the person will still bitch about it, but will cut them some slack since they didnt get a dishonorable from them.
This is all rumor btw.
3PushesBullet
2008-06-19, 17:56
unless things have changed its 33 with a high school diploma and 50 with a GED pretty much the same for all except the AirForce and its 50 and they dont take GEDs
From what I understand, only the Army takes G.E.D.s, and you have to take an extra test on top of the ASVAB to be accepted with a G.E.D.
And according to the AF captain that swore us in at MEPS, the Air Force does NOT take G.E.D.
From what I understand, only the Army takes G.E.D.s, and you have to take an extra test on top of the ASVAB to be accepted with a G.E.D.
And according to the AF captain that swore us in at MEPS, the Air Force does NOT take G.E.D.
My recruiter(Marine Corps) said they accept GEDs, they just don't like it as it requires a higher ASVAB score and a lot more paperwork to process someone going in without a diploma. Also, many people with GEDs are less motivated. If they didn't pack the gear to graduate high school for fucks sake, how could they graduate bootcamp?
DesertRebel
2008-06-20, 20:08
Also, many people with GEDs are less motivated. If they didn't pack the gear to graduate high school for fucks sake, how could they graduate bootcamp?
BULL FUCKING SHIT!!!
I hate to tell your Recruit ass this, but for some people, they see and feel the military as their last chance to do something with their lives, so they are some of the most motivated people in the division. Same goes with these GED guys.
I went through Basic with a couple guys who had GEDs, and let me tell you we started with 90some people. We graduated with 50. The GED guys did great, and I never once questioned their mental retardation, lack of motivation or whatever. Hell I assumed they had Diploma's until they said something or they had to go do a thing or two cause of their GED.
I have seen people with Diplomas, Degrees, GED's drop out of Basic. Hell some of the lazier people I met had diploma's cause they simply didn't care. You don't know them, they could have had more important shit to do, such as being seriously sick, help support their family, accidently started a family and this is their one shot to give them a decent life. Hell the ones who accidently started a family are probably more motivated than your high school ass because you fail, you look like a total bitch when you go home. They fail, their family has a harder time making ends. Hell the military maybe the last chance before hitting rock bottom. Ever think about that?
Having a GED is like being a closet homosexual honestly. Unless you make a lot of noise about it, people are gonna think you're just like everyone else. A straight person with a high school diploma whose doing their job.
I recall only one instance where I found out one of the people in the division had a GED cause he had to go take a test, and told the guy next to him why and I overheard it. All he had to do was get up, notify his chain of command and leave.
Ultimately, the short version of this is it doesnt matter what your educational level is, it all depends on how motivated you are to pass. Cause ultimately, all everyone else cares about is 1 thing: Can you do your job. I like to think of the Air Force as the best example of this.
You got people with degrees, flying aircraft maintained by kids with GEDs and diplomas.
So go through Basic Training, and when you're out, tell us what your experiences with people with GEDs were. Cause mine were just like kids with diplomas.
FuckedintheHead
2008-07-18, 20:24
Do not ever join a field artillery unit unless you like being bored for the rest of your life.
This. I am a 13B. How long have you been in?