Heres the shiny new thread I made just for our own discussion, BrokeProphet, since you didn't want to detract from the topic of that other thread.

It has been said by some that certain people live with their heads in the clouds, "outside" of reality. That they prefer to believe things which are unreal, untrue. For example:

The reason reality is seen <by the delusional> as miserable is because the delusion is bliss. Reality is only miserable by comparison.

The delusion is more comoforting than the reality, UNLESS you realize it is a delusion.

You are free to decide the delusion makes you happy, who knows maybe it does, but that does not change the fact that it is a delusion brought on by a cowardly refusal to face reality.

My question to you, BrokeProphet, is what is reality?

I think that his reality is a delusion in which he sees reality as a delusion. ftw.

Being a slowwitted intellectual having much difficulty with self expression, being of a reserved and stubborn nature(aspergers?), who reaches success through methodical hard work and is often in a conflict between the head and heart to the point of irrational emotion at one moment and logic at the next. I am very indecisive because I take in much from my environment causing me to swing between irrational and rational thoughts and feelings, it can be interesting to watch. From time to time I misrepresent myself in what I am saying.
Endlessly evaluating and weighing things up, contributing to my indecisive nature, no matter how irrational my decision may seen, it still is a valid and good judgment (in my mind at least). I prefer to listen to various opinions on a subject before my own is made. Maybe I’m lazy, or maybe it is the nature of myself that makes me believe I’m lazy.
It is my thirst for knowledge! I can never be satisfied, embarking upon exhaustive studies, always for pleasure of course. Didn’t do to well in school, did what I had to do to get out of that mental prison.
I will admit, I rate the quality of my judgments higher then they really are, this can cause stuntedness in the growth of my plans. Sometimes I fall back into my mind when confronted with REALITY.
But fuck it!
I’m one of those people of who are happy in my dream-world.
I like to have my own ideas about things, and present strange and bizarre theories and observe what kind of problems it poses.

But what… is… Reality..?
And why aren’t my bizarre theories part of it?
Is my Reality a pseudo-Reality, and your Reality the real Reality?
Maybe they’re both THE REAL REALTIY!!!
Enough of this silly is/is not battle between theologians (or mystic in my case) and material scientist!
Enough I exclaim!
Enough. . .
Maybe in the REAL REALITY isness and isnotness are ONE n the SAME.
Are we wasting our time arguing over pointless bullshit when we could be moving further in our different directions, creating new paths of discovery in every situation we observe?
The answer is YES (in my reality)
Fuck you, those who accuse me and my reality as false.
Fuck you, get your filthy hands out of my dream.
Go back to your own and let me be!

It not be I who isseth crazy, not willith I take thou medication. It be ye that iseth crazy for thy accusation thou placeth uponeth me! Oh My! Doth that meanith that I beith crazy? For I haveeth accusith thee of being crazy when thou accusation waseth placethed uponeth I! The conclusion I hath cometh to is one of thee following:
Indeed we beeth both loony.
Neither of us is IN REALITY crazy.Get thou soiled hands out of my dream!
Go back to thy own and leaveth me BE!

My question to you, BrokeProphet, is what is reality?

-Reality is an illusion the only thing one can know is I am.
-Your lucky numbers this week are 12,7,68, and 14
-Find happiness where you least expect it.

Take any fortune cookie saying you like. Me i like these:

-world: all of your experiences that determine how things appear to you; "his world was shattered"; "we live in different worlds"; "for them demons ...

-the state of being actual or real; "the reality of his situation slowly dawned on him"

-the state of the world as it really is rather than as you might want it to be; "businessmen have to face harsh realities"

-the quality possessed by something that is real

------------

These are the big boy definitions of reality. Feel free to get abstract Obbe stink all over it. Have fun.

-world: all of your experiences that determine how things appear to you; "his world was shattered"; "we live in different worlds"; "for them demons ...

-the state of being actual or real; "the reality of his situation slowly dawned on him"

-the state of the world as it really is rather than as you might want it to be; "businessmen have to face harsh realities"

-the quality possessed by something that is real

So, in your mind, reality can be summarized using a bunch of textbook definitions? Have you put any of your own thought towards it, or did you just get angry and decide to slap a bunch of shit you googled together for a reply?

Your first definition doesn't seem to fit with the rest very well. The first definition implies that reality is subjective ("we live in different worlds..."), while all the other definitions imply that there is a 'true' objective reality.

All these other definitions center around a certain quality. The quality of being 'real'.

Excluding your first copy-and-paste, you have chosen to define 'reality' as those things which 'exist' and are real, and 'non reality' or illusion/delusion as those things which do not exist, and are not real.

Where then does your first definition fit in to the picture? How can reality be both everything you have experienced in your life, and something objective which certain experiences should be excluded from?

How do you determine which of your experiences are 'real' and which are not?

edit - <insert generic insult here>

"Reality is what you can get away with." Robert Anton Wilson
"Reality is a collective hunch." Lily Tomplin

Me (and many others)-- reality is what we decide it is. We create our own reality even as we experience it. We are not in the world--the world is in us.

Where then does your first definition fit in to the picture? How can reality be both everything you have experienced in your life, and something objective which certain experiences should be excluded from?

Reality is just good like that.

That first one shows how reality is used as a term to describe one's paradigm. I think you are more interested in the second which is by far, my favorite:

The state of being actual or real.

How does a person determine what is real or not?

I cannot speak for everyone but I use sensory data taken in by a number of biological functions and then processing said data in my organic computer. My computer can be tricked but it has a few saved files worth keeping:

If I put a shotgun in my mouth and pull the trigger, I will cease to be able to use my meat body in this world.

Stuff like that. Rules of reality most of us will obey until we die, yourself included despite your apparant "conviction" of an illusionary world, or as I like to call it your "Delusions of Illusions"

reality is when there's no one there to determine what's real or an illusion

Reality is an all-encompassing term for all that actually exists. This is often defined inter-subjectively. Many people seem to interchange 'reality' with 'personal experience' which is a grave mistake and against definition. Also, the concept that 'reality is an illusion' is also, by definition, contradictory. Some, such as one who really believed we were in some sort of matrix, may say this isn't THE reality. But who is the onus on? It is on the skeptic in such an instance, as per Russell's teapot and other examples. Therefore, there is only one reality (even stating this is superfluous).

... Rules of reality most of us will obey until we die, yourself included despite your apparant "conviction" of an illusionary world, or as I like to call it your "Delusions of Illusions"

Rules of a system, a system which you have assumed to be reality. Please tell me how you have verified for yourself, beyond a doubt, what really is real and what is not - besides using assumptions, faith, beliefs - or else it appears that you are victim to "delusion" yourself. Or as some asshole who defines other peoples beliefs and opinions into mental illnesses may call it, your "Delusions of Sanity".


You show an obvious lack of understanding my beliefs when you ask such questions as why I obey the 'rules' of the system I experience, specifically why I do not kill myself, even though it appears we have been over it many times before. You show even greater confusion when you respond to my recognition of your misinterpretation, as I am recognizing in this paragraph, by assuring me that you indeed do understand my beliefs, by stating that there is nothing to understand and then drumming up a little mockery of my concept within a single simple sentence. Oh, you witty little monkey you.

Because of your harsh judgment, your muddling of my beliefs, your constant attempts to drag them into discussion where I have never mentioned my personal beliefs (as in this thread), your refusal to be indifferent towards my beliefs and your general asshole-attitude complex, I will continue not to discuss them with you. I am not a masochist.

Instead, I implore you to explain to me how you have verified for yourself, beyond doubt, what is real and what is not. Without assuming anything, explain how you know what reality and sanity are.

where and who is this person doing this non existent questioning? eh?

where and who is this person doing this non existent questioning? eh?

Will you ever know?

Do any of us know what the fuck we are talking about? Ever?

Will you ever know?

Do any of us know what the fuck we are talking about? Ever?

hahahaha

I am playing a very stupid and silly game

but for the life of me I can't seem to stop!

I remembered but then I forgot but I keep remembering but then I want to forget again but you can't forget a thing like that unless you go through something incredibly traumatic like say birth, infancy, adolescence...etc.

i did know! i do know...oh jeez hahaha....

real knowledge is beyond words though!

who is?

what is - I am?

where is - I am?

what isn't - I am?

let's get high, then go higher! what, why not? you say, "what is reality?" I say, "who is asking that!"

we all want infinity but we also want to run away from it...a constant running to and running away...just give in already...give in...give in...what! sounds like some sort of strange hypnotic suggestion from the nether realms of ERGODWUT!

let's get high, then go higher! what, why not? you say, "what is reality?" I say, "who is asking that!"

I'd say there are both complex and simple answers to both questions. Will you ever know them? Nope, so lets kick back and pass me the shrooms.

we all want infinity but we also want to run away from it...a constant running to and running away...just give in already...give in...give in...what!

That says a lot all on its own. ;)

I'd say there are both complex and simple answers to both questions. Will you ever know them? Nope, so lets kick back and pass me the shrooms.

give me 400-600 micrograms of LSD and I will tell you anything you've ever wanted to know in ways you never knew possible

Tell me all! ;)

Tell me all! ;)

okay, just this once I will tell all secrets of the universe away FOR FREE ON SALE ONLY $19.95!!

wait, did I say free?

no seriously, ask me anything and ill give you a humorous hint and then wonder why I'm not out gaining more knowledge instead of sitting around typing on a computer - but maybe I'm supposed to be? it seems right on just about every level. just about.

oh well

this could be fun!

okay, just this once I will tell all secrets of the universe away FOR FREE ON SALE ONLY $19.95!!

this could be fun!

All the answers are finally at my fingertips, and here I am at a loss of what to ask ...

Why exist?

All the answers are finally at my fingertips, and here I am at a loss of what to ask ...

Why exist?

ask what you mean by "existence"

is existence the actions that "you" engage in...

or the being that you are?

the reason for the being is the being itself!

it's kind of how like rats will keep pulling the trigger to get their dopamine fix...pull the trigger to pull the trigger...

except at a much higher level =P

ask what you mean by "existence"

is existence the actions that "you" engage in...

or the being that you are?

the reason for the being is the being itself!

it's kind of how like rats will keep pulling the trigger to get their dopamine fix...pull the trigger to pull the trigger...

except at a much higher level =P

The second one, and I agree with your answer.

"You dream of a desert, where mirages are your rulers and your tormentors, yet these images come from you.

Father did not make the desert, and your home is still with him."

"I am not here."

boo hoo, you think you understand my uber complex idea of life, and reality......boo hoo.

Everything is an illusion, the only thing one can know is I am.

What more is there to understand?

Being a slowwitted intellectual having much difficulty with self expression, being of a reserved and stubborn nature(aspergers?), who reaches success through methodical hard work and is often in a conflict between the head and heart to the point of irrational emotion at one moment and logic at the next. I am very indecisive because I take in much from my environment causing me to swing between irrational and rational thoughts and feelings, it can be interesting to watch. From time to time I misrepresent myself in what I am saying.
Endlessly evaluating and weighing things up, contributing to my indecisive nature, no matter how irrational my decision may seen, it still is a valid and good judgment (in my mind at least). I prefer to listen to various opinions on a subject before my own is made. Maybe I’m lazy, or maybe it is the nature of myself that makes me believe I’m lazy.
It is my thirst for knowledge! I can never be satisfied, embarking upon exhaustive studies, always for pleasure of course. Didn’t do to well in school, did what I had to do to get out of that mental prison.
I will admit, I rate the quality of my judgments higher then they really are, this can cause stuntedness in the growth of my plans. Sometimes I fall back into my mind when confronted with REALITY.
But fuck it!
I’m one of those people of who are happy in my dream-world.
I like to have my own ideas about things, and present strange and bizarre theories and observe what kind of problems it poses.

But what… is… Reality..?
And why aren’t my bizarre theories part of it?
Is my Reality a pseudo-Reality, and your Reality the real Reality?
Maybe they’re both THE REAL REALTIY!!!
Enough of this silly is/is not battle between theologians (or mystic in my case) and material scientist!
Enough I exclaim!
Enough. . .
Maybe in the REAL REALITY isness and isnotness are ONE n the SAME.
Are we wasting our time arguing over pointless bullshit when we could be moving further in our different directions, creating new paths of discovery in every situation we observe?
The answer is YES (in my reality)
Fuck you, those who accuse me and my reality as false.
Fuck you, get your filthy hands out of my dream.
Go back to your own and let me be!

It not be I who isseth crazy, not willith I take thou medication. It be ye that iseth crazy for thy accusation thou placeth uponeth me! Oh My! Doth that meanith that I beith crazy? For I haveeth accusith thee of being crazy when thou accusation waseth placethed uponeth I! The conclusion I hath cometh to is one of thee following:
Indeed we beeth both loony.
Neither of us is IN REALITY crazy.Get thou soiled hands out of my dream!
Go back to thy own and leaveth me BE!
A post by Vanhalla that I like and can identify with! :eek: :)

I’m one of those people of who are happy in my dream-world.

This is all I ask theists realize.

...

Hey, if thats the route you're gonna take, go ahead. Just remember, you're the one who claimed to know what reality and sanity are. Now you're running away from that, acting like the same kind of ignorant douche you've grown to associate with religion.

This is it Broke, this is The Thread where you can tear me and my concept apart. Destroy me. All you have to do is ...

"... explain to me how you have verified for yourself, beyond doubt, what is real and what is not. Without assuming anything, explain how you know what reality and sanity are."

I’m one of those people of who are happy in my dream-world.

This is all I ask theists realize.

Actually, you quite regularly ask theists to question their own personal beliefs and happiness, and persuade them to become atheists. If you are so happy, why are you always trying to cause so much change?

Why are you always trying to change me? Why do you try to control me?

Hey, if thats the route you're gonna take, go ahead. Just remember, you're the one who claimed to know what reality and sanity are. Now you're running away from that, acting like the same kind of ignorant douche you've grown to associate with religion.

Reality: The quality or state of being actual or true.

Sanity: The quality or condition of being sane; soundness of mind.
Soundness of judgment or reason.

You believe in these definitions as well. You like to think you don't, but you do.

Example: A shotgun is real, bullets are real, death is real. You know this to be true. True enough that you will not test it's illusiory status by putting a loaded shotgun in your mouth and pulling the trigger.

The fact that you dont shows that you have some measure of sanity....soundness of judgment or reason.

You believe in these definitions as well. You like to think you don't, but you do.

Actually, you quite regularly ask theists to question their own personal beliefs and happiness, and persuade them to become atheists. If you are so happy, why are you always trying to cause so much change?

Desiring change does not require one to be miserable.

I am not desiring to change you or your beliefs. Your philosophy will mature when you devolop hair on those tiny balls and your voice deepens.


Why are you always trying to change me? Why do you try to control me?

I don't try to control you anymore than I try to control an annoying green shit fly. I don't have some grand conspiracy to control a fly, I just swat when it comes to near and annoys.

Stop eating so much shit and spreading it so readily and you will cease to be an annoying shit fly. That is to say...stop trolling.

Everything is an illusion, the only thing one can know is I am.

What more is there to understand?

What did your face look like before your parents were born?!?!?!

From where did the illusion originate?

Is the origin of the illusion also the same?

Even a bubble in the ocean, full of form and empty simultaneously, has the nature of that which it temporarily fragments itself from!

Reality is whatever that fucking demon wants it to be. All I know is my mind

Reality is whatever that fucking demon wants it to be.

The accumulation of environment and genetics = demonic influence?

All I know is my mindIs your mind all you are?
Is your mind all you can know?
Can your mind influence your experiences?
Can your mind influence your genetics when operating at the proper frequency?
Are these questions necessary?

Example: A shotgun is real, bullets are real, death is real. You know this to be true. True enough that you will not test it's illusiory status by putting a loaded shotgun in your mouth and pulling the trigger.

The fact that you dont shows that you have some measure of sanity....soundness of judgment or reason.

You believe in these definitions as well. You like to think you don't, but you do.

Shotguns, bullets and death are all parts of a system. How have you verified this system is real?

The reason that I don't take a shotgun and shoot myself to see whether or not I will die, is because I believe that if I do that then I will die, and death is not something I want to expereince right now. I believe that is all part of a system. Do I know that system is real?

No, I don't. I don't know that the whole system which I percieve having unbreakable rules such as gravity, or "shoot yourself and you die", is itself real. You like to think you do, so this time around without assuming anything, explain how you know what reality and sanity are.

You think sanity is being reasonable? Then I would say the 'sane (http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2125918)' person has arranged his life so that he doesn't try to do anything that doesn't seem pretty easy. That he has ways of pretending he does not mind about anything he cannot alter easily. And that the sane person will not admit that the prospect of being permanently finite is intolerable.

Desiring change does not require one to be miserable.

I was not implying it must. But I do question why you constantly try to cause change if you are so perfectly content.

I am not desiring to change you or your beliefs. Your philosophy will mature when you devolop hair on those tiny balls and your voice deepens.

Then what do you desire when you drag my beliefs into discussion or tell others that their beliefs are wrong? Just to be a miserable prick?

My, that doesn't seem very reasonable.

I don't try to control you anymore than I try to control an annoying green shit fly. I don't have some grand conspiracy to control a fly, I just swat when it comes to near and annoys.

You must miss every time then, as here you are still swatting at flies. Doesn't seem to be a real effective method of achieving your happiness ... oh, thats right, you already are content, aren't you. Well you keep swatting away then, it makes an enjoyable breeze for those of us who can just sit back, relax and let those flies buzz.

You imply I am a conspirator? Please, I am not the one who believes that all religion was designed thousands of years ago as a form of social control by those in power.

Stop eating so much shit and spreading it so readily and you will cease to be an annoying shit fly. That is to say...stop trolling.

Eating shit? You are implying I simply absorb something which I think sounds awesome and believe it without thinking for myself? Please, if you actually read my posts you would understand I am just as much against organized religion and the like as you are.

Spreading shit? I'm not the one making posts which insist that believing in God means you are bat shit fucking insane (http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2123124), or "I am right, you're all wrong" in other words.

Trolling? I'm not the one derailing threads (http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2124182) just so I can try to rip into your beliefs.

Fuck off with your propaganda, Broke, and try really hard to leave my beliefs out of the discussion. After all, you don't need to understand them. You just need to tell me how you have verified for yourself beyond a doubt, without assuming anything, how you know what reality and sanity are. You don't even have to tell me what they are, just how you know; that's all it would take.

Just going to ignore this?

Fuck off with your propaganda, Broke, and try really hard to leave my beliefs out of the discussion. After all, you don't need to understand them. You just need to tell me how you have verified for yourself beyond a doubt, without assuming anything, how you know what reality and sanity are. You don't even have to tell me what they are, just how you know; that's all it would take.

I perfectly understand your beliefs. I understood them when I was a child same as you.

Your beliefs have zero value and zero falsifibility.

Yes, you fucking troll, you have derailed my threads with your horseshit and countless others. I don't care to fish for them, but you KNOW its true. One particular instance you told Angryfemme that your sole purpose for doing it was to get a rise out of me.

You have your rise, and will always have it from me you mental fucking midget. I will be there to point out your bullshit hypocrisy everytime you conviently fail to remember it.

And never forget......you have yet to present how your beliefs are of value to
anyone.

-----------

Your beliefs cannot be falsified same as any religious belief.

Your belief is in no way superior to a person's beliefs that a huge ball of shit is at the center of the universe or that a teapot is revolving around the sun in a place we can't see it.

Intellectually your beliefs are not worth diddley shit. If your beliefs are true...they offer nothing. If your beliefs are false...they offer nothing. They are the musings of a child who fancies himself an intellectual.

I perfectly understand your beliefs. I understood them when I was a child same as you ...

Whoa, more insults and slander. Never saw that coming. :rolleyes:

Now if you wouldn't mind getting back on topic, explain to me how you have verified for yourself beyond a doubt what is real and what is not. Without assuming anything, explain how you know what reality and sanity are.

Now if you wouldn't mind getting back on topic, explain to me how you have verified for yourself beyond a doubt what is real and what is not. Without assuming anything, explain how you know what reality and sanity are.

We have been over this. This is the question I ask you everytime you begin to make any sort of a claim much to your dislike. On your simple abstract level, it does not have a correct answer. Doesn't mean you are correct mind you.

Your regress is a child's game.

Same as you cant prove you are not actually my fart stink that gained consciousness and slipped into a time warp only to evolve for 8 billion years in another dimension, only to come back to this one, to annoy me your creator. Well me an a few white castles.

I can take a page from your B U L L S H I T wannabe intellectual book and argue that point until I am blue in the face. I won't PROVE my argument SAME AS YOU but that isn't the point of the shit you do is it?

What you do is argue the type of bullshit I have above until it can be said that nothing can be proven. It is (please understand this) A WASTE OF TIME. There is nothing beneficial to be gained from it. NOTHING.

This is why I put you in your fucking place. It is where you and your horseshit belong.

why are you trying to prove something to another person?

Classifying Reality and Illusion is probably to be put down to dogmatic Catholic belief in the resurrection of Christ.

The Christ figure is fundamental. But where do you draw the line between reason and reality? Did Christ rise from the dead and does ever lasting life betray reality.

Maybe we should consider the development of biology as well as ecology. The history of man is so far beyond a conceivable revelation as such.

Doesn't mean you are correct mind you.

Correct about what? What claim do you think I have made in this thread?

All I have been doing is asking you how you know what reality and sanity are. You have not explained how.

Your regress is a child's game.

Your undying urge to stifle any opposing opinions is a child's game. Society is game. Being a 'grown up' is a fucking game.

What is your point? What are you trying to accomplish by telling me so?

Same as you cant prove you are not actually my fart stink that gained consciousness and slipped into a time warp only to evolve for 8 billion years in another dimension, only to come back to this one, to annoy me your creator. Well me an a few white castles.

But I am not asking you to prove a negative, or that reality is not something (... you can't prove you are not ...), I am asking for the positive.

It is very clear: You claim to know what reality and sanity are. How do you?

What you do is argue the type of bullshit I have above until it can be said that nothing can be proven.

Actually, all I have been doing is asking you how you know what reality and sanity are. I haven't argued anything, except maybe that you are an asshole. But you didn't deny this.

It is (please understand this) A WASTE OF TIME. There is nothing beneficial to be gained from it. NOTHING.

I would think that is entirely dependent on a persons perspective.

For instance, I think its a waste of time to argue endlessly with anyone I happen to disagree with the opinions of, or make it a point to be as big of an asshole as possible towards them. Like endlessly swatting at and missing little flies, instead of ignoring them.

But on the other hand, to you the above would seem to be totally worthwhile and reasonable, a completely sane thing to do. Right?

This is why I put you in your fucking place. It is where you and your horseshit belong.

Well I was going to just let this go ignored, but you can't seem to stay on topic and off your opinions of me:

I question why you constantly try to cause change if you are so perfectly content.

What do you desire when you drag my beliefs into discussion or tell others that their beliefs are wrong? Just to be a miserable prick?

My, that doesn't seem very reasonable.

Apparently I have been spreading horse shit, and its just a big waste of my time. And somehow this justifies your terrible attitude, and "putting me in my place".

But the thing is, I haven't claimed any "horse shit" here, Broke. I have only been asking you to explain how you know what reality and sanity are. You have not told me.

Considering that, your ill-spirited actions aren't supported by the justifications you have made for them. So again I ask, what do you desire when you drag my beliefs into discussion or tell others that their beliefs are wrong? Just to be a miserable prick?

Why do you constantly try to cause change if you are already perfectly content?

And of course, if you could stay and topic and actually reply to the question I have been asking throughout this thread, that would be nice.