many times when i've asked people who believe in the one all powerful all loving god (christian, catholic, etc) why there is suffering in the world if god is all loving they have often responded that suffering is there as a counterbalance to happiness. we have no light without darkness to compare it too, no concept of cold without the opposite heat.

this i can understand and i think so can anyone whos ever gone through anything painful only to have the pain removed. the question i would like to pose though is why would god, if suffering is neccesary to counterbalance happiness, apportion it out in a seemingly random manner? children in africa born into a life of violence and misery compared to paris hilton born into a party life with more money then its possible to spend in a single lifetime?

if god needed to put suffering in the world wouldn't he, in his infinite power, place an equal amount of suffering upon each person? as this isn't the case how can people be judged against the same yardstick when it comes to the entrance exam to heaven? should the rich heirs be judged harder because they had the ability to accomplish more? should the senegal refugee be given an open pass simply by dint of the fact they have had to endure so much and that the simple achievment of living a clean life free of violence and hatred is so impossible to achieve?

thoughts, comments

ps: this isn't so much an indictment of the major monothiestic religions but more a curiosity on the explanation to such a well known state of the world and also upon what criteria those believers think god judges us by

Heres an idea: why don't you work towards changing that?

Is blaming your suffering on some imaginary man in the sky any better then those who seek out an authority to worship? Will it change anything? Whether or not you believe in a "God", your suffering and the suffering of others is all due to the choices we make.

Thats like complaining about it being "unfair" that all the bits of matter that make up the human population have the ability to sit up, look around and think about this while the majority of "reality", as it seems, gets nothing close to this privilege. Accept it. Try and make the situation 'better', if thats what you want. Make better choices.

The answer is simple: free will is absolute, and those who suffer choose to do so.

Old saying form somewhere-- "Pain is mandatory; suffering is optional." I had heard this for years and didn't grok it until one day I slammed the car door on my finger.

The pain was just amazing--I felt dizzy and nauseated, it hurt so much. But instead of suffering--getting out of the moment and obsessing on did I break a bone, will I lose the use of the finger yadda yadda, I just thought "WOW--what a rush!" and wondered if my fingernail would turn any interesting colors. (It didn't.)

Mostly, we suffer when we choose not to live in the present moment.

Same thing with fear--we never fear what is happening now--we are too busy dealing with it. We always fear what might happen in the future--which usually never does, anyway.

Fear is our only enemy.

Quick question: What was the last miracle any of you witnessed?

Thought so.

A world without God would look much the same way it does today. You take the good, you take the bad you take them both and there you have...the facts of life. (sweet).

God is a unnessacary for good things and bad things to happen here on Earth. He is completely uneeded and is currently being downsized and outsource.

God is drawing unemployment right now.

How do you define "miracle"?

For me, the mere fact of my existence is miracle enow.

How do you define "miracle"?

For me, the mere fact of my existence is miracle enow.

An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.

Note: Life is not supernatural. See evolution for complete details.

Heres an idea: why don't you work towards changing that?

Is blaming your suffering on some imaginary man in the sky any better then those who seek out an authority to worship? Will it change anything? Whether or not you believe in a "God", your suffering and the suffering of others is all due to the choices we make.

Thats like complaining about it being "unfair" that all the bits of matter that make up the human population have the ability to sit up, look around and think about this while the majority of "reality", as it seems, gets nothing close to this privilege. Accept it. Try and make the situation 'better', if thats what you want. Make better choices.

i'm not blaming this state of affairs on a higher power, i believe fully that the world is the way we make it i'm simply asking how this disparity is explained by the major religions of the day. whether or not god exists or not wasn't what i was really getting at simply the idea that if he does exist, as so many people believe, then what is the explanation around suffering being heaped upon some more than others? and of course does this affect the ultimate goal of said believers of getting into heaven

ps i'm agnostic myself seeing as you seem to think i actually believe in a personified god

if he does exist, as so many people believe, then what is the explanation around suffering being heaped upon some more than others?

Well I can't speak for others, so I won't pretend to. Personally, I believe God does not exist as so many people believe God does, I believe most people have not given very much consideration as to what God is. Its a good question to ask: why did God allow suffering to exist, or free will? Why do some people get the shitty end of the stick?

Why don't we take this even further?

Why did God allow for the ability to suffer? Or the ability to dislike something?

Why did God grant such a small part of his creation the ability to sit up and look around at everything and think about all of this, and deprive the rest of reality those abilities? Thats not very proportionate.

Fuck, why did God even bother creating such hilarious creations? Why doesn't God just enter a state of unimaginable bliss and stop time?

An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.

Note: Life is not supernatural. See evolution for complete details.

I don't believe there is a difference between supernatural occurrences and natural occurrences, I believe "supernatural" is just a term some people attach to unexplained natural occurrences.

The laws of nature? In other words, the rules to a system. Alright, so explain this system. How did it come to be? Is it not incredible? Can you explain existence, Broke? Can you explain reality?

Although I agree with what you were saying in the earlier post ... about it being unnecessary to believe in God. It really does not matter if you do or not. But some people will always find it necessary to be pricks to the people who see things differently, huh.

the question i would like to pose though is why would god, if suffering is neccesary to counterbalance happiness, apportion it out in a seemingly random manner? children in africa born into a life of violence and misery compared to paris hilton born into a party life with more money then its possible to spend in a single lifetime?

if god needed to put suffering in the world wouldn't he, in his infinite power, place an equal amount of suffering upon each person? as this isn't the case how can people be judged against the same yardstick when it comes to the entrance exam to heaven? should the rich heirs be judged harder because they had the ability to accomplish more? should the senegal refugee be given an open pass simply by dint of the fact they have had to endure so much and that the simple achievment of living a clean life free of violence and hatred is so impossible to achieve?

thoughts, comments
Thoughts, comments: You've hit the main problem I have with almost all religions pretty much dead on. A thumbs up for you.

Can you explain existence, Broke? Can you explain reality?

No, which is why I do not place a supernatural label on it, call it a miracle to justify a God.

What was your point?

Seriously did you even need to respond to my post. Did you present any new ideas or add a point to the conversation?

No.

Go play with some legos or something.

What was your point?

a) In my opinion, supernatural and natural are the same thing.

b) To question your reasoning for asking when we last witnessed miracles, and why you think such 'supernatural' occurrences would make any difference in what we were saying.

c)You say it is unnecessary to believe in God. I agree. Yet, you still find it necessary to attempt to control others and persuade them into not believing, as if it should be mandatory. You would even go so far as to define beliefs in God as insanity, as you have before. I would like to read why you believe this is any different then attempting to control people through a church.

An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God.

Note: Life is not supernatural. .

That definition is, I think, sadly inadequate. To an ignorant person, a butane lighter might appear to be miraculous, not to mention a high-tech thing like a quartz clock or whatever. I think it was Arthur Clarke who observed that any sufficiently advanced technology cannot be distinguished from "magick."

"Supernatural" is a whole 'nother thing. To me, nothing that appears in nature is supernatural--including magick, laying on of hands healing (having done it), discarnate entities, yadda yadda yadda.

a butane lighter might appear to be miraculous, not to mention a high-tech thing like a quartz clock or whatever.

They might think that, sure, but since there is a natural explanation for those gadgets, then it isn't a miracle.

Their erroneous belief doesn't somehow invalidate the definition given.

b) To question your reasoning for asking when we last witnessed miracles, and why you think such 'supernatural' occurrences would make any difference in what we were saying..

It is a simple question, and wasn't directed at you. You don't believe in miracles, you believe in illusions. Feel free to actually ANSWER the simple question I asked, though.

you still find it necessary to attempt to control others and persuade them into not believing, as if it should be mandatory. You would even go so far as to define beliefs in God as insanity, as you have before. I would like to read why you believe this is any different then attempting to control people through a church.

I am not telling people that if they do not listen to what I say, their ghost will burn for all eternity, they won't get paradise, get to see their dead grannies.

In short, I am not providing hope to the stupid. You asked for difference, and those are but a few.

I have never said religion or beliefs should be outlawed or mandatory. I am a firm believer in Liberty, for fuck's sake. I believe if a person wants to believe in talking snakes, zombies, and evil fruit, then they have the RIGHT to do so.

And I have the right to laugh my ass off and personally judge those who are this stupid.

What they DO NOT have the right to do is FORCE me participate. Yet, they do and until such a time comes when we have a truly secular society, I will speak out against the retarded and backwards beliefs of mystics.

..... laying on of hands healing (having done it), discarnate entities, yadda yadda yadda.

Seriously, if you are magical, why are you wasting that ability?

I do hope you spend your days and nights in cancer ward after cancer ward laying on the hands of magical healing. I am surprised you have time to mod a forum. I would figure your phone would be ringing off the hook with calls of "Brain tumor this, and spinal cord injury that".

Or........or.......

You could be entirely full of shit.

They might think that, sure, but since there is a natural explanation for those gadgets, then it isn't a miracle.

Their erroneous belief doesn't somehow invalidate the definition given.

You seem to be positing that a miracle needs be unexplainable in order to be a miracle. In that case, aspirin was miraculous for all those years when no one could explain why it works.

You seem to be positing that a miracle needs be unexplainable in order to be a miracle. In that case, aspirin was miraculous for all those years when no one could explain why it works.

No, what I'm saying is that someone could believe that a butane lighter, a quartz clock, and aspirin are a miracle, but if a Natural Explanation exists - and one does exists for all of those things - then those things, are not a miracle.

In other words you said: " To an ignorant person, a butane lighter might appear to be miraculous". I'm saying, sure an ignorant person might believe that...but he'd be wrong. An ignorant person might believe that 9 is an irrational number. He'd be wrong there as well.

What ignorant people believe doesn't magically change what is or is not true.

Okay--but who is to say then that there is not a "natural" explanation for phenomena that most people would consider to be miracles?

Take shamanic soul retrieval--I could give a perfectly natural explanation for how and why that works, having done it numerous times.

Feel free to actually ANSWER the simple question I asked, though.

If I use the definition you provided, then every moment, as every moment itself is ultimately unexplained. But like I said, I do not believe there is a real difference between the supernatural and natural.

In short, I am not providing hope to the stupid.

No, you are providing ease to those who seek ease. A distraction from reality for those who attempt to convince themselves that the possibility of their finiteness is a certainty and that they should not find such circumstances at all intolerable.

And ultimately, you are still trying to change what others believe. Which is ultimately the same thing organized religion does.

What they DO NOT have the right to do is FORCE me participate.

I agree man. So who locked your chains?

Okay--but who is to say then that there is not a "natural" explanation for phenomena that most people would consider to be miracles?

Well seeing as I don't believe in "miracles" that fits quite fine with me, and with the definition of the very word I should add.


I don't get your point... If there is a natural explanation, then it isn't a miracle!

I don't get your point... If there is a natural explanation, then it isn't a miracle!

Evidently, we define "miracle" differently. In fact, I'm not sure how I would define the word myself. I have been reading A Course in Miracles a lot lately and have yet to find a coherant definition of the word there.

Evidently, we define "miracle" differently.

How do you define it then? Because I'm basing myself on the dictionary. Look up your dictionary and you'll find something to the effect of "something that surpasses what is explainable by natural phenomenon".

You will also find a definition that defines a miracle as something that is amazing, but that's hardly a meaningful definition when discussing god(s). Materialists, atheists, agnostics... whatever, don't have problem with amazing things. They have problems - many of them do anyway- with things that violate the natural laws.

why would god, if suffering is neccesary to counterbalance happiness, apportion it out in a seemingly random manner?
Why would God distribute suffering randomly, for instance, have one guy's arm chopped off while leaving a thousand with two arms? Because God loves basketball.
http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1753319/
In all seriousness, I was watching this video, and I had a revelation. I said to myself, "This must be the reason for suffering: to give rise to greatness."

This guy fakes a pass by doing the thing where you toss the ball to yourself, from one hand to the other, except he does it with only half the hands normally required (one)!!!

I think this guy is freaking epic. God took his arm because God loves basketball.

The answer to your question is....

Shit happens.

Shit happens at random to people, without the need for a magical explanation.

I imagine the world would have just as much suffering and just as much inequality amongst who suffers and why.......without God.

It then stands to reason that either:

God does not exist.
God is dead.
or God does not care.