It seems to me that religion will have less sway over us the more pastor's embarass those who make the laws.

Thoughts.

It seems to me that religion will have less sway over us the more pastor's embarass those who make the laws.

Thoughts.

My thoughts are that it is against the rules to post what is essentially the same thread (http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2128428), but reworded, in more than one forum, and that this thread should therefore be closed.

My thoughts are that it is against the rules to post what is essentially the same thread (http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2128428), but reworded, in more than one forum, and that this thread should therefore be closed.

Heres a fucking penny for em, fag.

If the affect religion has on our life through government does not belong in My God...move this one as well.

Rest assured I will cuntishly point out every fucking thread that meets the same criteria as mine, and demand it be moved as well.

The topic is different even if the content is basically the same. I'll reply to the topic: I have no idea. I fear that religion is not actually on the way out at all, but that it's just the dominant religion that is changing. Will people ever learn?

What do you think the dominant religion is changing into?

Possibly Islam. I think it's growing pretty rapidly. All sorts of New-Age spiritual nonsense is propagating too, though.

Possibly Islam. I think it's growing pretty rapidly. All sorts of New-Age spiritual nonsense is propagating too, though.

I hope not.

Abrahamic religions are the fucking WORST religions.

I still think that with the internet and proper education a person can figure out religions are in all likelyhood utter horseshit. It is my hope to have a secular country one day.

I still think that with the internet and proper education a person can figure out religions are in all likelyhood utter horseshit.

Except that children are programmed to believe otherwise, to believe that whatever else out there is false. They're ingrained with a distorted sense of logic and perspective of the world.

The problem here is that it is an endless cycle that is being passed down from parent to child. You can convince a little kid of anything since they're so impressionable. Not to mention the fact that they will be more likely to believe things from an authoritative source (ex: parents, church, etc).

And then these children grow up and pass these ideas on to their children, and so on, ad infinitum.

it is against the rules to post what is essentially the same thread (http://www.totse.com/community/showthread.php?t=2128428), but reworded, in more than one forum

He ammended the thread content to make it more suitable for the forum he wanted to discuss it in.

Uptight, much?

Except that children are programmed to believe otherwise, to believe that whatever else out there is false. They're ingrained with a distorted sense of logic and perspective of the world.

The problem here is that it is an endless cycle that is being passed down from parent to child. You can convince a little kid of anything since they're so impressionable. Not to mention the fact that they will be more likely to believe things from an authoritative source (ex: parents, church, etc).

And then these children grow up and pass these ideas on to their children, and so on, ad infinitum.

I agree, but the cycle is dwindling here in America. Church pews are getting lonlier and lonier every Sunday. People demand to remove any vestige of midevil torture devices from the public sight.

And now with every candidate having problems with the people saying (imagine this) retarded shit whilst behind the pulpit.......perhaps Pat Robinsons religious right is out wind. Perhaps secular humanism will be the next big thing.

I could see the big megachurch activity coming to a screeching halt, but I bet there'll always be grassroots religious movements in the mix. Rural america thrives on it. These are the more devoted, salt-of-the-earth folks who take their holy spirit in absurdly large doses, and don't get out much. Fuck with their religion, and they'd turn rabid on you.

Perhaps.

But progress does come to those folks. Albeit 20 years or so after the rest of the country.

I know people will always create and imagine things to explain the unknown, but I just hope that those people will one day be a minority, it would give me such hope for humanity if that were the case.

I'd like to see the ancient religions of Greece and Rome come back.

To get religion 'out of your life', all you need to do is stop caring about religion.

Jesus is just alright with me.
Oh yea. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EB3QAqS7L4k)

To get religion 'out of your life', all you need to do is stop caring about religion.

That's like saying "Stop caring about politics."

It doesn't just "go away."

That's like saying "Stop caring about politics."

It doesn't just "go away."
Unfortunately true. :(

That's like saying "Stop caring about politics."

It doesn't just "go away."

Really? So if everyone all at once stopped caring about any of the things we could classify as being a part of human culture, this huge wealth of information wouldn't go away? Of course it would.

On a personal level, will my not caring about religion stop other people from raging battles about it? No, but I wouldn't care. It would not be a part of my life, and has no effect on my happiness.

If you want religion out of your life, thats what you should do. Put it out of your life. Stop letting it affect how you feel. Its not so hard.

On a personal level, will my not caring about religion stop other people from raging battles about it? No, but I wouldn't care. It would not be a part of my life, and has no effect on my happiness.

That's a pretty selfish way to look at it. Maybe you personally have been lucky enough not to suffer at the hands of some religious fanatic, or some war waged in the name of a god, but there are plenty of people who have...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusade
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad

Or...

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050911/images/ins_terror430.jpg
http://www.ypsddpakistan.itgo.com/images/religious_extremist_has_free_hand.jpg
etc etc, the list goes on and on...

Its out of my control. I'm not going to put myself through more suffering attempting to control it.

Also, there is a difference between getting religion out of our life, and getting oppression out. Personally if I were walking down the road and saw a religious extremist with a gun to a child's head, I would try to prevent the situation from getting worse. I would protect the child. I would protect myself and my own beliefs.

Would I try to control or change his beliefs, like he is trying to do to me? No. I would not.

Its out of my control. I'm not going to put myself through more suffering attempting to control it.

Like I said... a selfish way to look at things.

Although, I suppose a discussion like this thread proposes is about on par with a discussion on how to end world hunger, and how to encourage world peace... It may seem out of control to us on a personal level, but that doesn't mean discussing it is completely pointless. It's important to raise awareness about these issues.

Also, there is a difference between getting religion out of our life, and getting oppression out. Personally if I were walking down the road and saw a religious extremist with a gun to a child's head, I would try to prevent the situation from getting worse. I would protect the child. I would protect myself and my own beliefs.

Would I try to control or change his beliefs, like he is trying to do to me? No. I would not.

Religion has been shown to almost go hand in hand with oppression. Religion and freedom of thought just can't seem to get along. However, we would get along absolutely fine without religion. So why not get rid of it in order to spare lives and to encourage the growth of humanity?

Like I said... a selfish way to look at things.

Although, I suppose a discussion like this thread proposes is about on par with a discussion on how to end world hunger, and how to encourage world peace... It may seem out of control to us on a personal level, but that doesn't mean discussing it is completely pointless. It's important to raise awareness about these issues.

Sure, I love discussion. But actual action, trying to control people and make them a certain way ... I don't see how that would be any less oppressive then religions control over people.

While we may see the non-existence of organized religion a good thing, attempting to control the rest of society with that goal in mind is just as bad as what it does, in my opinion.

I believe that not caring about religion is the best way to go, first of all because it makes me content, but also because if everyone stopped caring, then organized religion would have no grip on society. I believe people have to decide to stop caring about religion on their own, and that actively trying to move society away from organized religion is no better then controlling them through religion, and will have similar symptoms. I believe that would cause more war, not peace.

Religion has been shown to almost go hand in hand with oppression. Religion and freedom of thought just can't seem to get along. However, we would get along absolutely fine without religion. So why not get rid of it in order to spare lives and to encourage the growth of humanity?

Some people like religion. Another freedom is freedom of religion. Or a better way to say that might be freedom of personal beliefs. Would forcing people to give up religion not conflict with this?

I agree with you that organized religion is usually oppressive and controlling. But do you not have the freedom to think for yourself? After all, here you are, disagreeing with organized religion. Thats great.

Why involve other people? Why start trying to convince others that you know the "real" truth? Or even simply that what they believe is wrong? I see that as the exact same thing those religions you are against do. I see it contributing to the same problems. I do not see it sparing lives.

Why involve other people? Why start trying to convince others that you know the "real" truth? Or even simply that what they believe is wrong? I see that as the exact same thing those religions you are against do. I see it contributing to the same problems. I do not see it sparing lives.

Why? Well the most important reason is that organized religion carries negative connotations. Such as the ones I mentioned above (religious wars, extremists, etc).

It also puts a limit on freedom of thought. The christian papacy had a monopoly on all forms of thought and education and technology for thousands of years... What happened to people like Galileo when he tried to tell people that the earth revolves around the sun and not the other way around?

And you better believe that if christianity still had that kind of power, they would exercise it just as diligently...

Organized religion is all about the suppression of truth, not the pursual of it. And if you can't see the negatives in that, and thus the reasons why it needs to be extinguished, then we must be on two completely different wavelengths...

What happened to people like Galileo when he tried to tell people that the earth revolves around the sun and not the other way around?

What would happen to a theist in a world of militant atheists?

Do you not see these are just two sides of the same coin? The same problem?

The problem is the 'militant' part. It's not whether you have beliefs or lack them, its what you do, what you do to others.

Organized religion is all about the suppression of truth, not the pursual of it. And if you can't see the negatives in that, and thus the reasons why it needs to be extinguished, then we must be on two completely different wavelengths...

I do disagree with organized religion ... I clearly stated that I agree with you about that. But we really must be on different wavelengths, since you can't see the negative side of attempting to control the rest of the worlds opinion on religion, can't see how it would contribute to the same problems organized religions do and cannot be content.

On a personal level, will my not caring about religion stop other people from raging battles about it? No, but I wouldn't care. It would not be a part of my life, and has no effect on my happiness.

"He.....

He's a WITCH!!!

BURN HIM ALIVE!!!"

Be kinda hard to put a happy go lucky smile on while you are holding charred peices of face on your skull. Be hard to laugh with lungfuls of acrid burnt flesh smelling smoke.

Bit extreme, I will admit, but it does showcase your naive concept of sticking your head in a hole like a ostrich, so things wont effect you.

Possibly Islam. I think it's growing pretty rapidly. All sorts of New-Age spiritual nonsense is propagating too, though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1BEErB8cdA

We have nothing to worry about. Besides, thanks to the mass media everybody hates Islam.

Possibly Islam. I think it's growing pretty rapidly. All sorts of New-Age spiritual nonsense is propagating too, though.

Indeed it is...and it makes me smile uncontrollably :D


Islam is growing very rapidly all over the world and will soon be the most dominant religion. People are slowly but surly starting to become more religious and open their minds to take an actual look at what religion has to offer. Women and Men are converting/reverting from left, right and centre. Which means they're educating themselves on a new level other than how they have been conditioned to think. White, Black and Asian women are deciding to cover themselves up and wear the hijab out of respect and modesty for themselves, and it makes me happy. I'm so sick and tired of these non-religious people being so preoccupied with materialism and how they're being perceived by other people within society, making them extremely insecure and paranoid to a point where they have to modify and beautify themselves to a exaggerated extent for social acceptance.

People around here base their lives upon consuming alcohol and going night clubbing every other night. Being intoxicated within the street, screaming, swearing, crying, fighting and vomiting.

The women are plastered in make up, wearing low cut tops with padded up lifting bras, to give off the illusion that their boobs are bigger. Wearing short skirts and high heals and love to drink, smoke and take all kinds of drugs.

Then we have Islam that comes and brings a new hope. Which seeks to destroy nightclubs, casinos, strip bars and porno shops. Also to ban alcohol for good.

This is how it should be and this is how it will be.

Indeed it is...and it makes me smile uncontrollably :D


Islam is growing very rapidly all over the world and will soon be the most dominant religion. People are slowly but surly starting to become more religious and open their minds to take an actual look at what religion has to offer. Women and Men are converting/reverting from left, right and centre. Which means they're educating themselves on a new level other than how they have been conditioned to think. White, Black and Asian women are deciding to cover themselves up and wear the hijab out of respect and modesty for themselves, and it makes me happy. I'm so sick and tired of these non-religious people being so preoccupied with materialism and how they're being perceived by other people within society, making them extremely insecure and paranoid to a point where they have to modify and beautify themselves to a exaggerated extent for social acceptance.

People around here base their lives upon consuming alcohol and going night clubbing every other night. Being intoxicated within the street, screaming, swearing, crying, fighting and vomiting.

The women are plastered in make up, wearing low cut tops with padded up lifting bras, to give off the illusion that their boobs are bigger. Wearing short skirts and high heals and love to drink, smoke and take all kinds of drugs.

Then we have Islam that comes and brings a new hope. Which seeks to destroy nightclubs, casinos, strip bars and porno shops. Also to ban alcohol for good.

This is how it should be and this is how it will be.

Ok, now you're just trolling... :mad:

Ok, now you're just trolling... :mad:

Not at all...Within what i said, how does it make me a troll?


I am being realistic with my surroundings. People bash religion on here frigging constantly. Nobody calls them trolling. But a few people speak in the light of religion and what it can do for the benefit of world, and he is called a troll.

please.

What would happen to a theist in a world of militant atheists?

Do you not see these are just two sides of the same coin? The same problem?

The problem is the 'militant' part. It's not whether you have beliefs or lack them, its what you do, what you do to others.

But getting rid of religion would cause nothing but good....

Letting religion take over means only one...

Like I said, it's religion that carries the one-track-mind attitude. It's either christianity, islam, judaism, whatever... One of the other! They cannot coexist!

But if we just get rid of them all together, then everyone will benefit. Maybe not the current generation of theists, or even the following generation, but humanity as a whole will be better from it.

It's about time we cleanse ourselves of illogical thinking and childish superstition. It does nothing but hinder us.

Not at all...Within what i said, how does it make me a troll?


I am being realistic with my surroundings. People bash religion on here frigging constantly. Nobody calls them trolling. But a few people speak in the light of religion and what it can do for the benefit of world, and he is called a troll.

please.

Because you're supporting one of the most ass-backwards religions there is...

All organized religions are cults. Yet you go and defend the worst one of them all... And you expect to be taken seriously?

Because you're supporting one of the most ass-backwards religions there is

All organized religions are cults. Yet you go and defend the worst one of them all... And you expect to be taken seriously?

According to your understanding.

I obviously disagree with that, and a further more two billion people disagree with that.

I don't care if you take me seriously or not. What i said still stands. Just because you don't think highly of Islam, and then someone comes along speaking highly of it. You call him a troll. That is just stupid.

Although, I suppose a discussion like this thread proposes is about on par with a discussion on how to end world hunger, and how to encourage world peace... It may seem out of control to us on a personal level, but that doesn't mean discussing it is completely pointless. It's important to raise awareness about these issues.

It only takes one person to take a stand and fight against it often to blossom

But getting rid of religion would cause nothing but good....

And don't the aggressively religious want to do this same thing? Get rid of every 'truth' but their own? They all see it as nothing but good as well.

Like I said, it's religion that carries the one-track-mind attitude. It's either christianity, islam, judaism, whatever... One of the other! They cannot coexist!

Really? They do not coexist right now?

Sure they exist in disagreement, at war with one another. How would be declaring war on all religion be any different? How can you think it would not contribute to the exact same problems? How can you think people won't rebel against those trying to change them?

People make up their own minds, whether you like it or not. And everyone making the decision, on their own, towards peace and away from attempting to control others is the only way I see peace happening ... not through force.

Like I said, its not having beliefs or lacking them thats the problem. The problem is forcing others to accept your way as the "right" way. That problem still exists with what you are proposing.

But if we just get rid of them all together, then everyone will benefit. Maybe not the current generation of theists, or even the following generation, but humanity as a whole will be better from it.

And thats what all the Christian extremists think about every other system of beliefs. And thats what Islamic extremists think about every other belief. "Humanity would be so much better if everyone thought like me".

Are you so blind that you can not see you are suggesting the same thing? That you would be just as extreme and oppressive as those you are opposed to? That it would cause more war and bloodshed?

It's about time we cleanse ourselves of illogical thinking and childish superstition. It does nothing but hinder us.

Is not childish to want everyone to "accept my way, or take the highway"?

You think what you a proposing is fucking logical? That humanity needs to be cleansed of undesireables in order to move on towards greater achievements?

"He.....

He's a WITCH!!!

BURN HIM ALIVE!!!"

Be kinda hard to put a happy go lucky smile on while you are holding charred peices of face on your skull. Be hard to laugh with lungfuls of acrid burnt flesh smelling smoke.

Bit extreme, I will admit, but it does showcase your naive concept of sticking your head in a hole like a ostrich, so things wont effect you.

Personally if I were walking down the road and saw a religious extremist with a gun to a child's head, I would try to prevent the situation from getting worse. I would protect the child. I would protect myself and my own beliefs.

Would I try to control or change the extremists beliefs, like he is trying to do to me? No. I would not.

12345

Would I try to control or change the extremists beliefs, like he is trying to do to me? No. I would not.

It is not about controlling or changing another's beliefs.

Get that through your fucking head.

It is about not allowing those personal beliefs to affect me.

A person can believe in evil fruit, zombies, sacred cows, evil pork, crystal magic, ghosts, and gods all they want. I may find it amusing, and laugh my ass off, but I would not try to force my beliefs on them through governmental law. Indeed I do not force my atheist views upon anyone.

When religion stops using government as a tool for indoctrination, I will stop taking joy in watching the religious regimes of the world begin their downward decent into mythology.

Since it is you I am talking with it bears repeating:

It is not about controlling or changing another's beliefs.

Get that through your fucking head.

It is about not allowing those personal beliefs to affect me.

It is about not allowing those personal beliefs to affect me.

Thats great. I actually agree with that, Broke, I just don't agree with people like gadzooks who may, for example, try using the government as a tool to control others.

If we could all believe or not believe what we want without trying to force it onto others, then that would be great. I do not see peace happening when everyones trying to control everyone else.

Also, I might add that while it would be great to live in that ideal world where nobody tried to control anyone else, or there were some sort of 'rules' to prevent such control from happening (lol), not allowing others personal beliefs to affect you can be just as easy as that - don't let them affect you. You don't have to attempt to control them to not be affected by them. And if you were to control them, then wouldn't your personal beliefs now be affecting someone else's life?

According to your understanding.

I obviously disagree with that, and a further more two billion people disagree with that.

Just because 2 billion people believe something, it doesn't make it right.

Thats great. I actually agree with that, Broke, I just don't agree with people like gadzooks who may, for example, try using the government as a tool to control others.

If we could all believe or not believe what we want without trying to force it onto others, then that would be great. I do not see peace happening when everyones trying to control everyone else.

What about the children?

There are children being brought up and indoctrinated with ridiculous stories at a time where they're gullible enough to believe anything. They're force-fed a bunch of crap and it is presented to them as fact.

If you don't see any similarities between that and the government using 'tools to control others,' then all is lost on you.

What about the children?

There are children being brought up and indoctrinated with ridiculous stories at a time where they're gullible enough to believe anything. They're force-fed a bunch of crap and it is presented to them as fact.

Yeah, it sucks to be a kid. But they're not my children. What right do I have to tell someone what they should and should not teach their own children?

If you don't see any similarities between that and the government using 'tools to control others,' then all is lost on you.

I DO see similarities between government control and religious control. Thats why I said it was something you, a person who whats to control the beliefs of all others, might do.

Yeah, it sucks to be a kid. But they're not my children. What right do I have to tell someone what they should and should not teach their own children?

Again with the selfishness. You just straight don't give a fuck unless it's you who's at the receiving end, do you?

These children will grow up with a skewed sense of reality. Their perception of the world and their logical skills will be completely useless. It's brainwashing in all it's glory.

To say "these aren't my kids so what do I care" is just plain selfish.

Although, of course, you have every right to be concerned only with yourself. But I just hope you realize that this attitude you have is a very self-centered attitude.

I DO see similarities between government control and religious control. Thats why I said it was something you, a person who whats to control the beliefs of all others, might do.

I am against the controlling of the beliefs of others.

That's why I think religion should be separated, and, (out of personal preference), abolished altogether.

Religion is a fertile breeding ground for negative thought control.

...

I will reply to everything in that post that will still apply after you reply to this post (http://www.totse.com/community/showpost.php?p=10062206&postcount=35).

And don't the aggressively religious want to do this same thing? Get rid of every 'truth' but their own? They all see it as nothing but good as well.

But their judgment is clouded.

Really? They do not coexist right now?

Sure they exist in disagreement, at war with one another. How would be declaring war on all religion be any different? How can you think it would not contribute to the exact same problems? How can you think people won't rebel against those trying to change them?

People make up their own minds, whether you like it or not. And everyone making the decision, on their own, towards peace and away from attempting to control others is the only way I see peace happening ... not through force.

Like I said, its not having beliefs or lacking them thats the problem. The problem is forcing others to accept your way as the "right" way. That problem still exists with what you are proposing.

The point though, is that most theists are unwilling to compromise. Atheism/agnosticism is a natural form of compromise. It's saying "you could be right." Theists are too headstrong. It's their way or the highway. They can't accept for even a minute the remote chance that they could be wrong.

I'm getting the impression that you think that atheism/agnosticism is a one-track kind of thing. Well it ISN'T. Atheism is not the exact opposite of most theism (abrahamic religions, for example). It isn't a stern disbelief in god. It's a form of logical skepticism.



And thats what all the Christian extremists think about every other system of beliefs. And thats what Islamic extremists think about every other belief. "Humanity would be so much better if everyone thought like me".

Are you so blind that you can not see you are suggesting the same thing? That you would be just as extreme and oppressive as those you are opposed to? That it would cause more war and bloodshed?

Is not childish to want everyone to "accept my way, or take the highway"?

You think what you a proposing is fucking logical? That humanity needs to be cleansed of undesireables in order to move on towards greater achievements?

I addressed this above in this same post.

Atheists aren't the ones with the "my way or the highway" attitude.

But their judgment is clouded.

And they believe everyone else's judgment is clouded too. How clear is your judgment when you suggest exterminating others beliefs, controlling them, forcing them into a certain way? When thats the very thing you are opposed to?

The point though, is that most theists are unwilling to compromise.
Atheism/agnosticism is a natural form of compromise. It's saying "you could be right." Theists are too headstrong. It's their way or the highway. They can't accept for even a minute the remote chance that they could be wrong.

I am an agnostic theist, I believe it is impossible to know I'm "right". Don't be so close minded.

Not all atheists are willing to compromise ... are you willing to allow organized religion to go on existing? If they promise not to bother anyone?

Like I said, its not having beliefs or lacking them thats the problem. The problem is forcing others to accept your way as the "right" way. That problem still exists with what you are proposing.

I'm getting the impression that you think that atheism/agnosticism is a one-track kind of thing. Well it ISN'T. Atheism is not the exact opposite of most theism (abrahamic religions, for example). It isn't a stern disbelief in god. It's a form of logical skepticism.

I'm getting the impression that you think theism and controlling others goes hand in hand. Well they don't. Theism is believing in God.

You don't have to wipe out every belief in God, to get people to stop controlling others. And wiping that belief out would be a form of controlling others itself! So it seems that it would not actually change that part of the situation at all.

Atheists aren't the ones with the "my way or the highway" attitude.

Not all atheists, no, but you're certainly one.

are you willing to allow organized religion to go on existing? If they promise not to bother anyone?

Yes, I am. But for one thing, that is an impossible promise to keep.

And of course, I include brainwashing children as 'bothering anyone."

I'm getting the impression that you think theism and controlling others goes hand in hand. Well they don't. Theism is believing in God..

No, but they generally do go hand in hand.

Theism, in itself, is fine with me. Organized religion is not.

But the amount of theists who are not part of an organized religion is pretty damn small. Probably no more than about 1% of all theists.

You're arguing for such a small percentage of people that wouldn't even be affected by getting rid of organized religion. So I don't even know why you're getting so argumentative over it.

Yes, I am. But for one thing, that is an impossible promise to keep.

And of course, I include brainwashing children as 'bothering anyone."

Yes, so instead of being content and happy with yourself, you feel a need to control their beliefs? You see no problem in doing the same thing you are opposed to others doing?

No, but they generally do go hand in hand.

Theism, in itself, is fine with me. Organized religion is not.

But the amount of theists who are not part of an organized religion is pretty damn small. Probably no more than about 1% of all theists.

So? They all still have the ability to decide "I'm not going to force my beliefs on anyone else anymore. I don't care what others think."

Like I said, its not having beliefs or lacking them thats the problem. The problem is forcing others to accept your way as the "right" way. That problem still exists with what you are proposing.

You're arguing for such a small percentage of people that wouldn't even be affected by getting rid of organized religion. So I don't even know why you're getting so argumentative over it.

Uh, I'm not arguing 'for' anyone. I am showing you how eliminating the beliefs of these people you disagree with is no less oppressive then what they do to others.

Yes, so instead of being content and happy with yourself, you feel a need to control their beliefs? You see no problem in doing the same thing you are opposed to others doing?

You still don't see how brainwashing children is a negative thing??? :confused:

So? They all still have the ability to decide "I'm not going to force my beliefs on anyone else anymore. I don't care what others think."

Like I said, its not having beliefs or lacking them thats the problem. The problem is forcing others to accept your way as the "right" way. That problem still exists with what you are proposing.

There are certain things that are practically universally accepted as 'right' and 'wrong.'

Suicide bombings = wrong.
Crusades and wars waged in religion = wrong.
Killing, stoning, beating people to death = wrong.

These things stem from certain religious beliefs. Which means that there must be something fundamentally wrong with these beliefs, as somehow, people are deriving from them reasons to commit such horrendous acts. (Or do you find these acts totally acceptable???)

You still don't see how brainwashing children is a negative thing??? :confused:

Did I ever say it was positive? :confused:

Believing in God and brainwashing your children do not go hand in hand, either.

Or do you find these acts totally acceptable???

Personally, no I don't (and I would add that I also disagree there are objectively good or evil things, if you were to suggest that.).

I just realize that these acts have everything to do with trying to control others, and nothing to do with simply believing in God.

Atheists have never bombed? Never committed suicide? Never murdered? Never gone to war?

Since none of those things have anything to do with a lack of belief in God, and everything to do with controlling others, then I would say they are certainly capable of doing so.

Like I said, its not having beliefs or lacking them thats the problem. The problem is forcing others to accept your way as the "right" way. That problem still exists with what you are proposing.

Believing in God and brainwashing your children do not go hand in hand, either.

In about 99% of cases they do.

Atheists have never bombed? Never committed suicide? Never murdered? Never gone to war?

Not out of any religious/spiritual belief.

There are heinous acts committed with religious motives, and then there are heinous acts committed without religious motives.

Theists can carry out both, while atheists can only carry out one type.

Since none of those things have anything to do with a lack of belief in God, and everything to do with controlling others, then I would say they are certainly capable of doing so.

Name one, JUST ONE, instance of a theist being killed by an atheist because of their religious beliefs.

Please.

Like I said, its not having beliefs or lacking them thats the problem. The problem is forcing others to accept your way as the "right" way. That problem still exists with what you are proposing.

Ok, fine, I'll admit it. I am a fascist. Happy now?

I don't care if it makes me a fascist, or whatever you choose to call it, to want to get rid of religious-induced violence and brainwashing and other societal ills.

In about 99% of cases they do.

So? An atheist is incapable of doing so? A theist is incapable of not brainwashing their children?

Of course they are both capable of doing both. So the problem is not whether or not they believe in God or do not believe in God, the problem is attempting to control others.

Not out of any religious/spiritual belief.

There are heinous acts committed with religious motives, and then there are heinous acts committed without religious motives.

Theists can carry out both, while atheists can only carry out one type.

Right, and is 'one type' supposed to be code for 'any motive imaginable'?

Since the terms atheism and theism only refer to belief or lack of belief in God, both groups could have any number of unrelated motivations for wanting to control others.

How would getting rid of the "religious" motive do anything to stop people from committing these acts for other reasons?

How would "getting rid" of all religion not be an attempt to control others itself?

Name one, JUST ONE, instance of a theist being killed by an atheist because of their religious beliefs.

Please.

I said that they are certainly capable of it. Being an atheist has nothing to with "not controlling others". All it refers to is a lack of belief in God.

Therefore, atheists are perfectly capable of committing the same acts theists are capable of.

It does not matter if the motivation is different, it would still be attempting to control others ... which I have been saying is the root of this problem. Not religion.

Ok, fine, I'll admit it. I am a fascist. Happy now?

I don't care if it makes me a fascist, or whatever you choose to call it, to want to get rid of religious-induced violence and brainwashing and other societal ills.

I try to always be happy.

It's obvious you don't care. How fucking selfish :rolleyes:, lol.

So? An atheist is incapable of doing so? A theist is incapable of not brainwashing their children?

Of course they are both capable of doing both. So the problem is not whether or not they believe in God or do not believe in God, the problem is attempting to control others.

The point is that it happens much, MUCH, MUCH less often among atheists as among theists.

In fact, that same point applies to most of what else you said in this post.

Reducing organized religion would mean a drastic reduction in wars, death, violence, brainwashing, etc, etc.

That is why I am all for controlling others in this case. In my opinion, the ends completely justify the means.

The point is that it happens much, MUCH, MUCH less often among atheists as among theists.

Then why must you eliminate theism? Why not just try to convince them that they don't have to be that way, if you feel the urge to attempt to control them at all?

After all, I have shown that committing all these heinous acts are not requirements of being theists.

Reducing organized religion would mean a drastic reduction in wars, death, violence, brainwashing, etc, etc.

Really? You don't think all these religious people might be a little opposed to your will, and try to resist you? Causing wars, death, violence, more brainwashing? Perhaps even lead to the use of brainwashing by "your side" to convince these undesirables?

That is why I am all for controlling others in this case. In my opinion, the ends completely justify the means.

And thats exactly what organized religion would say.

Then why must you eliminate theism? Why not just try to convince them that they don't have to be that way, if you feel the urge to attempt to control them at all?

After all, I have shown that committing all these heinous acts are not requirements of being theists.

It's not so much theism I'm against. And I apologize if I gave off that impression. The only reason that I refer to theism and religion so much is that organized religion makes up a vast percentage of religion/theism.

And about trying to convince them rather than control them, that's not exactly an easy task, as about 99% of theists are unwilling to listen to or accept anything that contradicts their views.



Really? You don't think all these religious people might be a little opposed to your will, and try to resist you? Causing wars, death, violence, more brainwashing? Perhaps even lead to the use of brainwashing by "your side" to convince these undesirables?

Remember, this is all theoretical. I don't actually plan on going out and trying to put a stop to organized religion. I wouldn't even know where to begin.

All I'm saying is that it would be nice if we didn't have any organized religion.

You (or anybody) want to be a theist? Fine, just don't indoctrinate your children with it. Present it to them as theory and not as absolute fact.

Although, inevitably, they will start forming churches, increasing their numbers, start converting people... Things that naturally stem from ignorant theism (about 99% of theism, but I suppose not all theism)

And about trying to convince them rather than control them, that's not exactly an easy task, as about 99% of theists are unwilling to listen to or accept anything that contradicts their views.

Yeah man. Based on all human history, I have no hope for the future. Thats why I just don't care.

I am content.

Now, if everyone did that exactly that ... where does this problem of "others attempting to control others" go? It disappears. But I have no hope that will happen any time soon.

All I'm saying is that it would be nice if we didn't have any organized religion.

Yes it would. And it would be nice if there were no pollution, and I could fly, and it rained gummy bears and every moment of life was orgasmic.

You (or anybody) want to be a theist? Fine, just don't indoctrinate your children with it. Present it to them as theory and not as absolute fact.

I believe all education should be done like that. Information should not be forced on children, they should be motivated to learn the truth. They should be taught in ways which will spark interest, and get them to intend to find their own truth. Not simply accept what is told to them by authority figures.

Although, inevitably, they will start forming churches, increasing their numbers, start converting people... Things that naturally stem from ignorant theism (about 99% of theism, but I suppose not all)

I have no hope for humanity.

Also, I would say that stems from wanting to control others. People can spread bullshit about anything, not just God.

I believe all education should be done like that. Information should not be forced on children, they should be motivated to learn the truth. They should be taught in ways which will spark interest, and get them to intend to find their own truth. Not simply accept what is told to them by authority figures.

I agree. This is how it should be done.

I have no hope for humanity.

Generally, neither do I.

But threads like these are good for theoretical discussions of problems like this.

But threads like these are good for theoretical discussions of problems like this.

Yeah. Its a shame people attempt to control others.

...or there were some sort of 'rules' to prevent such control from happening...

Bit of an oxymoron. A rule to prevent other peoples beliefs from affecting you. That rule is someone's belief, but I get what your saying.

I have not read much of what is taking place between you and Gadzooks, just seemed that you were trying to indicate that I wish to control what other's believe, which is far from the truth.

The point of this thread was a simple observation that the news media has been attacking the candidates based on their relationship with nutjob christians. My hope is that this trend continues, so that having endorsements from christian leaders will be seen as a detriment to a campaign. This will decrease or at least slow down the foothold the Christian corporation has in Washington.

Which I think is a wonderful and great thing.

Bit of an oxymoron.

The reason I loled (in brackets).

Which I think is a wonderful and great thing.

Yes, organized religion has no right to use the government as a tool to control others.