I was sitting in the quiet living room the other day while my cat and dog sat with me in a state of half-asleep / half-awake. I began to think about how long back my cat could possibly remember, and whether he could remember anything outside the house he lives in since he never goes outdoors. It occurred to me that he might actually hate the prison, but then I realized that he had no concept of anything outside of it, so probably had no resentment to or knowledge of his predicament. I felt overwhelmingly sorry for him, having not experienced the outside world at all and seen just how much bigger it is than this house.

My feelings of pity were quickly arrested by feelings of alarm at a simple thought: what if humans are in a similar predicament? Is it so far fetched to believe that like a man looking down on a cat, and a cat looking down on an ant, we too are being "looked down" upon by some higher force? This doesn't necessarily have to be a personal god; it could simply be a machine that calculates possibilities and chooses the best decision.

It's a very simple point, and is reminiscent of Plato's cave allegory in that for the people inside the closed system it would be impossible to determine with full certainty whether the affirmative or negative were true. My final contention is that unless one has personal experience that has swayed the individual in one direction or another, it is impossible to say whether or not a higher conscious force is at work or not. If one wants to argue that either it (1) most likely does not exist; or that (2) it most likely does exist; then I would accuse you of falling into an overzealous trap.

Humans < Vulcans

They find us too amusing to invade.

DT

Klingons

Zerg.

what if humans are in a similar predicament?

Maybe, but so what. We don't realise, and we're happy as we are. If we eventually discover that we are indeed "in a similar predicament" then my views would change. But at the moment, who cares?

Also, this seems a needless complexity.

Maybe, but so what. We don't realise, and we're happy as we are. If we eventually discover that we are indeed "in a similar predicament" then my views would change. But at the moment, who cares?

Also, this seems a needless complexity.

You said, "at this moment, who cares?" It is the scope of philosophy to discuss these various issues, so if you indeed "do not care," then why are you participating in the discussion?

Furthermore, I'm not sure what you think I'm turning into a "complexity" (I do not know if that is exactly what you are saying, since the grammar is a little confusing). I'm creating an analogy that could possibly help us further our knowledge of our own situation - there's nothing to complicate. If you are trying to say my analogy is complicated, I'm not sure how much more elementary it could get (Edit: I even worded the topic title such that a small child could understand).

Klingons

What!

They're animals. Kirk said so.

DT

I have personal experiences everyday that show me their is nothing bigger, so I tend to sway toward the idea that there isn't such a higher force.

I think the very fact that you have to ask that question speaks volumes.

Do the cats have to? Do the ants have to?

I think the very fact that you have to ask that question speaks volumes.

Do the cats have to? Do the ants have to?

Do the cats and ants have to what? You didn't quote anything, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

ants and cats cant' under stand, would you want to know that your fate is in the hands of something you could never comprehend?

Do the cats and ants have to what? You didn't quote anything, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

Do they have to ask themselves if there is anything above them? I would imagine our presence and influence in the lives of cats is so big that if they were to have the reasoning capabilities we do, they'd know the answer to the question "is there anything above us" right off the bat.

That we have to ask ourselves that questions suggests that there isn't something like that for us, at least not something with any influence we can detect.

Do they have to ask themselves if there is anything above them? I would imagine our presence and influence in the lives of cats is so big that if they were to have the reasoning capabilities we do, they'd know the answer to the question "is there anything above us" right off the bat.

That we have to ask ourselves that questions suggests that there isn't something like that for us, at least not something with any influence we can detect.

Ah, I see what you mean now. The cat may know we're there, but he has no comprehension of what is actually going on. He has no inkling of the complexity of the world. Do you think he even knows we are much smarter than him? Probably not. He can't comprehend our complex language, and is therefore limited by his limited knowledge of us. I see that we too, do not know/have not explored the vast majority of this universe and this is where I see the room left for some conscious force above us.

ants and cats cant' under stand, would you want to know that your fate is in the hands of something you could never comprehend?

Well, if it was in fact true that our fate was, then yes I would like to know. As well, if the consciousness is benevolent and omnipotent then I don't think it would be bad at all. In fact, it could choose the best thing for me, more so than even I could given its knowledge of everything.

Ah, I see what you mean now. The cat may know we're there, but he has no comprehension of what is actually going on. He has no inkling of the complexity of the world. Do you think he even knows we are much smarter than him? Probably not. He can't comprehend our complex language, and is therefore limited by his limited knowledge of us. I see that we too, do not know/have not explored the vast majority of this universe and this is where I see the room left for some conscious force above us.


Yes, but you said it yourself: cats know we are here.

I'm not suggesting there couldn't possibly be something with more knowledge or more intellect or more technology than us somewhere in the universe. I'm suggesting that the very fact that we have to ask ourselves that question - when cats and ants do not - shows how very different our positions are, and this doesn't look good for those who say there is something greater.

While it's possible there is a more intelligent being, such as an intelligent alien, in our present situation we have no reason to believe it does. Therefore, I would tend to believe they don't exist.

While it's possible there is a more intelligent being, such as an intelligent alien, in our present situation we have no reason to believe it does. Therefore, I would tend to believe they don't exist.

Well, absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence.

Yes, but you said it yourself: cats know we are here.

I'm not suggesting there couldn't possibly be something with more knowledge or more intellect or more technology than us somewhere in the universe. I'm suggesting that the very fact that we have to ask ourselves that question - when cats and ants do not - shows how very different our positions are, and this doesn't look good for those who say there is something greater.

Yes they know we are here, but they cannot comprehend what it is we do. So we may be in a position where we simply cannot comprehend the higher intelligence. I understand what you're saying, and once again, I'm not advocating that there is something or there isn't, but simply that you can't say for sure either way.

We can't say for sure either way. Yes. Cat's can. Thus, we're in a much different position, which is rather telling. That was my point.

If there is anything looking down on us the way we look down on cats, then it is sufficiently advanced that we will never find out about it... therefore we will never know any different and are secure in our relative ignorant bliss.

Leave it be.

Humans < God

Thus, we're in a much different position, which is rather telling. That was my point.

Really? What if the reality around us, which we apparently 'know' is there, is much more complex then we are able to percieve? Why can this "Anything" not something we are a 'part' of?

It doesn't have to be something seemingly separate from us which we 'know' is there, like cats know we are there. Apparently we 'know' the universe is here, why would it not apply?

Cat's 'know' we are here, but apparently not how much more complex life is for a human compared to a cat. We 'know' reality is here, but do we really understand it all?

Really? What if the reality around us, which we apparently 'know' is there, is much more complex then we are able to percieve? Why can this "Anything" not something we are a 'part' of?

The very fact that you have to ask "What if" already shows we're in a much different position than cats or ants because they don't have to.

Moreover, the OP talked about something "looking down on us". Unless you have some proof that "reality" is "looking down on us" then you really have no point.

The very fact that you have to ask "What if" already shows we're in a much different position than cats or ants because they don't have to.

No, cat's don't have to question whether or not we are there. They already 'know' (;)) we do. What they do have to question, however, is our complexity, our involvement in their lives, how incomprehensibly complex a humans life is to a cats. They do not 'know' that.

Like cat's, we don't have to ask "what if reality exists" ... because apparently we already 'know' (;)) it does. But questions regarding the complexity of reality, how much information might really be involved, how much might be 'above' can still be asked.

Moreover, the OP talked about something "looking down on us". Unless you have some proof that "reality" is "looking down on us" then you really have no point.

Do cat's have any proof we 'look down' on them? Do they understand they are our 'pets', no more then possessions to most people? Do they have any way of knowing, at all, how we regard them?

I don't need proof, as this is all fucking speculation anyways.

What they do have to question, however, is our complexity, our involvement in their lives, how incomprehensibly complex a humans life is to a cats. They do not 'know' that.

It's not just the existence that they know, they know our absolute dominance over them. We can crush them like bugs at any moment. Just ask the many cats that have been microwaved alive, or the cat vaginas you'd probably find in some weird market across the world. We own them.

There is absolutely nothing comparable to that in our lives. Unless you show me some evidence that there is, you're right, it is just "fucking speculation" ... all the more reason why proof should be provided! Apparently you see a piece of shit and you say "Hey I want me some of that".

The fact that others haven't provided proof should not be your convenient excuse of not providing any; it should be your motivation to provide some. Thank you for showing the poverty of your intellectually honesty.

It's not just the existence that they know, they know our absolute dominance over them. We can crush them like bugs at any moment. Just ask the many cats that have been microwaved alive, or the cat vaginas you'd probably find in some weird market across the world. We own them.

You know, I just don't think I can ask a dead cat, and I don't think cat's 'tell' each other about cat-human sexual relations taking place in other parts of the world.

There is absolutely nothing comparable to that in our lives.

Reality has absolute dominance over us. You can die at any moment. You do not appear to have infinite capabilities. Just ask the many human who have died thousands of different deaths, or who wish they could change something in their life's or be able to accomplish a seemingly impossible task but find that their abilities are finite.

The fact that others haven't provided proof should not be your convenient excuse of not providing any; it should be your motivation to provide some. Thank you for showing the poverty of your intellectually honesty.

Why? I am not trying to prove anything. I am speculating.

You know, I just don't think I can ask a dead cat, and I don't think cat's 'tell' each other about cat-human sexual relations taking place in other parts of the world.

Who said anything about cat-human sexual relations? You freak... :eek:


Reality has absolute dominance over us.

Says who? Only if we fall for your bullshit, which no reasonable human being should without any evidence.


Why? I am not trying to prove anything. I am speculating.

Thank you Captain Obvious, that's what shows your appalling intellectual dishonesty.

Says who? Only if we fall for your bullshit, which no reasonable human being should without any evidence.

I would say the 'reasonable' person has arranged his life so that he doesn't try to do anything that doesn't seem pretty easy.

Thank you Captain Obvious, that's what shows your appalling intellectual dishonesty.

Dishonesty? I never claimed anything Rust. You even pointed out that I said 'What If'. And you already 'know' that I do not believe anything can really be known.

If anything, it looks to me as though you are being dishonest, by painting me up as if I had dishonest intentions.

I would say the 'reasonable' person has arranged his life so that he doesn't try to do anything that doesn't seem pretty easy.

Says the person doing absolutely no effort to provide anything supporting the "speculation" he has provided. How rich.

It's far more easy to speculate wildly than it is to actually provide something meaningful to support what you've said.



Dishonesty? I never claimed anything Rust.

No, you gave us rampant speculation in a thread already filled to the brim with it, without making any effort of giving anything that supports what you're speculating about.

There's a reason why people usually look down on tabloids. It's their awful journalistic integrity. You've provided the totse equivalent of that right here.

Ignorance is Bliss.

Ignorance is Bliss.

I'd rather know everything.

If you want to see higher intellengence(sp) then look at your cat or dog and see who feeds it and gives it water.For anyone who has a pet we are their slaves.Feed me,water me,walk me ,let me outside.Who do you think is the smarter one,The one being catered to or the one doing the catering?:confused:

what if humans are in a similar predicament?

Then nothing, really...
Let's say we are, what's there to do about it, and why?

So far I have seen no indication that there should be something, anything looking down upon us, although I've heard quite a few outrageous and totally unsubstantiated claims set forth by various people who can't even agree amongst themselves, so I'm pretty sure we're about the smartest ones around here.
I'd really appreciate i though, if we were visited by someone from another galaxy, that'd put some serious dents in a couple of people's arguments, but I don't think there's any "higher powers" and so on...

Is it so far fetched to believe that like a man looking down on a cat, and a cat looking down on an ant, we too are being "looked down" upon by some higher force?.

No one could have dreamed we were being scrutinized, as someone with a microscope
studies creatures that swarm and multiply in a drop of water. Few men even considered
the possibility of life on other planets and yet, across the gulf of space, minds
immeasurably superior to ours regarded this Earth with envious eyes, and slowly and
surely, they drew their plans against us.
[cue music composed by Jeff Wayne]

No one could have dreamed we were being scrutinized, as someone with a microscope
studies creatures that swarm and multiply in a drop of water. Few men even considered
the possibility of life on other planets and yet, across the gulf of space, minds
immeasurably superior to ours regarded this Earth with envious eyes, and slowly and
surely, they drew their plans against us.
[cue music composed by Jeff Wayne]

Well cool, but do you have any evidence to support this?

Well cool, but do you have any evidence to support this?

No-one does.