Since we are the product of both our genes and our environment, to what extent can we be responsible for our actions?

That's to the say, the person who is highly motivated for success is that way because his mind developed that way. The person who is a motivationless louse is that way because his mind developed that way. Even the murderer or rapist is that way because they've developed that way.

Of course, barring mental disorders, most people have enough cognitive ability to understand the law, and understand that their needs may violate it. They may want to rape, but they can usually channel that energy elsewhere to avoid legal (or moral) consequences.

But alas, what if someone can't bring themselves to channel their illegal/amoral actions elsewhere? From a philosophical, psychological, and legal standpoint, are they really responsible? It seems to me that our mental processes are responsible for every single thing we do, but we have little to no control over our mental processes, or how they came to be.

And I suppose a simplification of this is basically the question of the drug addict who goes to buy more drugs. Is he responsible, or is the drug that is affecting his mental processes responsible? Is he responsible for initially taking the drug, or is that a result of uncontrollable mental processes too?

When responding, please be clear about whether your addressing the philosophical, psychological, or legal part of this issue. (ie. If you think that someone can't be held responsible for what they do, what is the role of the legal system in dealing with such people?)

Lastly, I realize this is a loaded question, as I'm essentially asking whether we biologically have free will. So, discuss away.

everything
existentialism ftw

You are responsible for everything you do. Every human being makes choices and has to deal with the consequences, both good and bad that resulted from their decision.

In the case of your drug addict he is fully responsible for everything that might happen from said addiction.

1. He made the choice to do the drug multiple times to get addicted.

2. He broke the law, so if he was jailed he would be dealing with a consequence of his actions.

3. He is most likely broke from having to buy drugs.

4. His health is probably deteroriated by this point in time.

There are more potential consequences but it all stemmed from the individuals choices.

Do you follow?

In the case of your drug addict he is fully responsible for everything that might happen from said addiction.

1. He made the choice to do the drug multiple times to get addicted.

Well, that's the topic at hand. Since we aren't neutral, unbiased, impartial, unimpressionable beings, how can you say any choice is truly our own, at least in a philosophical and scientific sense.

Legally, I agree that people need to be locked up (and reformed ideally, though public safety is #1 priority) when they violate laws, but as far as true responsibility for actions...I'm not seeing it. We're essentially hollow vessels, and we're dictated by mental processes that we have no say in.



2. He broke the law, so if he was jailed he would be dealing with a consequence of his actions.

3. He is most likely broke from having to buy drugs.

4. His health is probably deteroriated by this point in time.

There are more potential consequences but it all stemmed from the individuals choices.

Do you follow?

How does this relate to the topic?

Well, that's the topic at hand. Since we aren't neutral, unbiased, impartial, unimpressionable beings, how can you say any choice is truly our own, at least in a philosophical and scientific sense.

Why did you make this thread? Go for the most basic reason why and you just answered your question.

You might also want to see existentialism.

Legally, I agree that people need to be locked up (and reformed ideally, though public safety is #1 priority) when they violate laws, but as far as true responsibility for actions...I'm not seeing it. We're essentially hollow vessels, and we're dictated by mental processes that we have no say in.

The key here is that they are your mental processes. You seem to like the infant science of psychology, so look up cognitive therapy.

As for responsibility, we need to define it first.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/responsibility

We can both agree on that defintion, right?

Once we can agree on a defintion, then we can proceed.

How does this relate to the topic?

Well if you read my post you'd know why.

"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

Responsibility, choices, and consequences go hand in hand. If you get a good grade who is accountable for getting that grade? If you flunk a test, who is accountable for that flunking grade?

I dont believe people are ultimately responsible. I believe the notion of responsibility is rooted in our judgement of others - condemnation of others more precisely, through morality. Its how we justify our own precedent - but is essentially an act of will and domination. The metaphysics of free will are fallacous.

Pantheism, non-dualism, postmodernism FTW.

Why did you make this thread?

Oh the Humanities! Philosophy, Law, Historical Debate, and War.


The key here is that they are your mental processes.


Well, my position, which I'm quite sure I said at least twice, is that "they are mental processes over which you have no control." In other words, I don't think that ownership makes you responsible for something. You can only be responsible for things which you have control over.

How I've arrived at my opinion:

1) We have no control over how our mental processes develop. It's all a combination of genetic and environmental information.

2) Our mental processes dictate our behavior.

So, assuming you agree, the question is: Do we have or can we gain control over our mental processes, such that our decisions are purely objective, and have no biases? I mean, the way I see it, every fabric of our being has been instilled in us from birth. Why don't we (most of us) go and rape women when we're horny, or have sexual relations with young people, or kill when we want what someone else has? Why do we raise our hand when we have a question? Why do we have to cover our genitals? All of these things and more have been fused to our very being, so...at what point can you hold someone responsible for anything?

If someone is missing the link that says "kids are off limits", or "nudity is shameful", they may end up being pedophiles or nudists. I think that whatever they chose, it's going to be out of their conscious control. Someone pedophile with a low drive for such activity can perhaps resist, and that's a result of how he is wired. A pedophile with a high drive for such activity perhaps is unable to resist, and once again, that's a result of his wiring.

Anyways I don't really expect for us to arrive at an answer, but people can bring some interesting ideas to the table. This is all just food for thought.


Well if you read my post you'd know why.

"For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

Responsibility, choices, and consequences go hand in hand. If you get a good grade who is accountable for getting that grade? If you flunk a test, who is accountable for that flunking grade?

Again, I don't see the relevance. If anything this will just detract from an already complicated subject. Someone getting shot is insignificant if all you're asking is "Who pulled that trigger?".

Oh the Humanities! Philosophy, Law, Historical Debate, and War.

You didn't answer the question. :rolleyes:




Well, my position, which I'm quite sure I said at least twice, is that "they are mental processes over which you have no control." In other words, I don't think that ownership makes you responsible for something. You can only be responsible for things which you have control over..

Remember that line in relation to mental processes.

How I've arrived at my opinion:

1) We have no control over how our mental processes develop. It's all a combination of genetic and environmental information.

Do you remember what I told you to look up in my post, but you cut it out when you quoted me? Cognitive Therapy, you just found a way to control your mental processes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioural_therapy

2) Our mental processes dictate our behavior.

So, assuming you agree, the question is: Do we have or can we gain control over our mental processes, such that our decisions are purely objective, and have no biases? I mean, the way I see it, every fabric of our being has been instilled in us from birth. Why don't we (most of us) go and rape women when we're horny, or have sexual relations with young people, or kill when we want what someone else has? Why do we raise our hand when we have a question? Why do we have to cover our genitals? All of these things and more have been fused to our very being, so...at what point can you hold someone responsible for anything?

A. Yes you can control your mental processes, but you skirted that part of my post.

B. Most of us do not want to go to jail because we know that we are responsible for our actions and the consequences of our actions.

C. Because we want to/do not want to. The same reason you made this thread and the same reason you did not answer my question.

D. Because mot people are embarrassed. I personally camp a lot and bathe when ever I have spare water, so I'm not afraid to be seen in the nude, but once again most of us won't go streaking because we know we are responsible for the consequences of streaking.

E. Anytime some one takes an action, they are responsible for it and the consequences that follow. Look at The Nuremberg Trials for examples of this.

If someone is missing the link that says "kids are off limits", or "nudity is shameful", they may end up being pedophiles or nudists. I think that whatever they chose, it's going to be out of their conscious control. Someone pedophile with a low drive for such activity can perhaps resist, and that's a result of how he is wired. A pedophile with a high drive for such activity perhaps is unable to resist, and once again, that's a result of his wiring.

They are responsible for their actions, just like both of us are responsible for ours. You have a choice either way.

Again, I don't see the relevance. If anything this will just detract from an already complicated subject. Someone getting shot is insignificant if all you're asking is "Who pulled that trigger?".

Who pulled the trigger is the person accountable for shooting the other person. You keep skirting the issue of who is responsible and try to blame it on something else. Here is a good link on personal responsibility:

On the law side of the issue you should look up a type of defense known as the "Abused/Battered Child Defense". It rarely works, but it might add some discussion to this thread.

It has already been stated twice but you should look up Existentialism.

You didn't answer the question. :rolleyes:

Not getting involved in the discussion, and he can answer for himself, but why would you look sarcastic? Isn't it obvious to you that the answer was self-respect?

Not getting involved in the discussion

Then why did you even post?

but why would you look sarcastic?

Because he failed to answer the question. He has habits of doing this and cutting entire parts of quotes out so he doesn't have to answer to the points/counterpoints they make.

Isn't it obvious to you that the answer was self-respect?

Why did you make this thread? Go for the most basic reason why and you just answered your question.

Go back and read a little. Self respect is not the most basic reason.

Then why did you even post?



Because he failed to answer the question. He has habits of doing this and cutting entire parts of quotes out so he doesn't have to answer to the points/counterpoints they make.

Go back and read a little. Self respect is not the most basic reason.

I'm not going to go look up topics. If you want to discuss something, put it in your post. When I ignore things you write, it's usually because they are idiotic (in previous threads, not necessarily this one).

I'm not going to go look up topics. If you want to discuss something, put it in your post. When I ignore things you write, it's usually because they are idiotic (in previous threads, not necessarily this one).

I posted links to everything, but you obviously don't want to respond to them:

http://www.totse.com/community/showpost.php?p=10056910&postcount=8

You asked if you could control your mental processes (the psychological side) and I gave you an example of a therapy that has been proven to alter the way one thinks/percieves something.

You asked about the philosophical side of responsibility. I told you about existentialism.

You also asked about the legal side of this issue. I told you about a defense known as the "Abused/Battered Child Defense" That rarely works.

I even said you are going to have to define biological free will. Once we can agree on a definition, we can continue.

You ignore things people tell you when they don't agree with what you say. It's kinda like how you keep contradicting yourself back in SG, then claim you are drunk when ever you do it. You said you wanted discussion, yet you won't even take the time to read the things that addressed your questions. You seem to like psychology and types of therapy, so why not learn while you are here. You can learn something from just about everyone regardless if they share the same ideologies as yourself.

So, are you just going to skirt the points people make when they are not coinciding with what you believe, or are you going to add some points to it?

I posted links to everything, but you obviously don't want to respond to them:

http://www.totse.com/community/showpost.php?p=10056910&postcount=8

You asked if you could control your mental processes (the psychological side) and I gave you an example of a therapy that has been proven to alter the way one thinks/percieves something.

You asked about the philosophical side of responsibility. I told you about existentialism.

You also asked about the legal side of this issue. I told you about a defense known as the "Abused/Battered Child Defense" That rarely works.

I even said you are going to have to define biological free will. Once we can agree on a definition, we can continue.

You ignore things people tell you when they don't agree with what you say. It's kinda like how you keep contradicting yourself back in SG, then claim you are drunk when ever you do it. You said you wanted discussion, yet you won't even take the time to read the things that addressed your questions. You seem to like psychology and types of therapy, so why not learn while you are here. You can learn something from just about everyone regardless if they share the same ideologies as yourself.

So, are you just going to skirt the points people make when they are not coinciding with what you believe, or are you going to add some points to it?

You mentioned Cognitive Therapy, said I should look it up, and in a later post you put a link.

And another thing, every goddamn post of yours involves ignoring points people make. Stop being a fucking retard, you stupid shit.

I'm busy, so I'll give you a proper reply later.

You mentioned Cognitive Therapy, said I should look it up, and in a later post you put a link.

And another thing, every goddamn post of yours involves ignoring points people make. Stop being a fucking retard, you stupid shit.

I'm busy, so I'll give you a proper reply later.

No, you are the one ignoring points, you asked questions, I answered them in all of your threads. You tried to discredit counterpoints, I made new ones. So really, are you going to reply to any of the points I made, or are you going to try to skirt them again?

If you're so busy I guess you have time to make threads in SG about crossing your legs.....

I think the fact that they are your mental processes does imply a degree of responsibility. For instance, I want a chocolate bar. I want a chocolate bar. I may not have control over this desire that has risen up in me, but I will think over it and make a choice. The choice to go get it is mine. You can say I'll always choose the same thing because I'm predestined to do it based on my life history, genes, etc., but it's still a choice in every sense of the word. I get it because I want it, and it is the being I call "me" both wanting and getting.

You can say I'll always choose the same thing because I'm predestined to do it based on my life history, genes, etc., but it's still a choice in every sense of the word

How is it a "choice in every sense of the word" if you can't choose to do differently? Choice implies the ability to decide between two or more things. If you can't do that because you must choose one in particular, then there is no choice...

WOW, I have said this exact thing before. Your first sentence, nearly word for word.

Anyway, I've talked with friends about it, and it boils down to a few things. As for saying "You do/don't have free will", the more pertinent question is "What do you mean by YOU?". While you may think that you are choosing something over another thing, your mind is simply performing millions of calculations through chemicals and deciding what to do based on the most beneficial solution. So, you basically have to decide what you mean by "you". Humans have a scarily vague idea of our personal identities.

Another thing to be pointed out about the choice thing: awareness/consciousness. It has always been my opinion that once you are made aware of this, you are now responsible. Once you realize/are told that you are responsible for your actions, you are almost magically responsible, because now you know that, though you may have inferior genes, people, and, by extension, you, have the power to overcome them. It's almost like unlocking something in your mind.

Did that make some sense?

Edit:

As interesting as this is, you should also ask yourself, no matter what conclusion you come to, how it affects your daily life. If you decide that we're all not responsible for our actions, we still have to lock up murderers. I guess your actions might change if you choose that we all are responsible, though.

In a social/legal sense, "you" are responsible for quite a bit "you" do. This is because we entitize things, even human beings.

Realistically though, there is no real "you" to make decisions. The brain fights over "decisions" and acts on "your" behalf, then it tells you what "you decided", which consciously manifests in "you" thinking to "yourself" and saying I'll do x, instead of y. Basically, "you" are being tricked into thinking "you" are thinking and deciding things. Thanks neuroscience.

In a social/legal sense, "you" are responsible for quite a bit "you" do. This is because we entitize things, even human beings.

Realistically though, there is no real "you" to make decisions. The brain fights over "decisions" and acts on "your" behalf, then it tells you what "you decided", which consciously manifests in "you" thinking to "yourself" and saying I'll do x, instead of y. Basically, "you" are being tricked into thinking "you" are thinking and deciding things. Thanks neuroscience.

It is "your" brain. You have great control over your own thought processes. Humans in general like to play the blame game. When it comes down to asking someone who is responsible for their good grade, they will say "I am", but if they have a bad grade and you ask the same question they will normally say, "The teacher is because (insert justification/excuse here)".

In other words, people who say they have no control over their bodies, thought processes, or decisions they make tend to be irresponsible and playing victim.

It is "your" brain. You have great control over your own thought processes. Humans in general like to play the blame game. When it comes down to asking someone who is responsible for their good grade, they will say "I am", but if they have a bad grade and you ask the same question they will normally say, "The teacher is because (insert justification/excuse here)".

In other words, people who say they have no control over their bodies, thought processes, or decisions they make tend to be irresponsible and playing victim.

Cognitive Therapy doesn't equate to "(great) control over our own thought processes". It's a form of external influence, designed to recondition us and shape us to think a certain way (just as we have been shaped our entire lives). Even the decision to seek out cognitive therapy is going to be a result of our pre-existing mental processes (ie. distress from a disorder), or external factors entirely (ie. concerned family members).

In other words, therapy is just an additional external influence, meant to change the way your mind works. It is not giving you power over your thoughts and mental processes.

I'm not entirely opposed to idea of one gaining control over their mind. Meditation apparently does change the shape of the brain, making people more aware, and seemingly more in control of their mind. However, even if you take the relatively unusual case of a skilled meditator, there still is the question of are the mental processes controlling him, or vice versa.

As for your comments on "the blame game": Your observations are accurate (an inherent logical/perceptive flaw in just about all humans, yourself included), though I don't see any correlation to the topic at hand. Basically, all you've said is "It is your brain" (which doesn't matter, as has been pointed out before), "you have great control over your thought processes" (how?), and then you begin discussing the "blame game".

In a social/legal sense, "you" are responsible for quite a bit "you" do. This is because we entitize things, even human beings.

Realistically though, there is no real "you" to make decisions. The brain fights over "decisions" and acts on "your" behalf, then it tells you what "you decided", which consciously manifests in "you" thinking to "yourself" and saying I'll do x, instead of y. Basically, "you" are being tricked into thinking "you" are thinking and deciding things. Thanks neuroscience.

This is what I've come to believe as well. We aren't really entities, but rather more like a very complex pinball machine. If you want to go the Freud route, then the ball starts down in the Id (which is basically the same for everyone), and the orientation of the "bumpers" is based on how our ego and superego formed.

Or to be more scientific about it, as beings, our thought processes are essentially just neurons firing down conditioned pathways.

I kind of like it though...if you try to think of your interactions with others as just firing neurons, it feels like you're "seeing the Matrix" or something. :p

You have great control over your own thought processes.

False. There is no "you" to have control. "Decisions/actions" are processed and then relayed to the conscious AFTERWARD. Read up on current neuroscientific research.

False. There is no "you" to have control. "Decisions/actions" are processed and then relayed to the conscious AFTERWARD. Read up on current neuroscientific research.

This is flawed on so many levels.

Let me have fun with this before I get into DerDrache's delusioned thought processes.

"Decisions/actions" are processed and then relayed to the conscious AFTERWARD.

1. You just now realized that you process things such as sights, sounds, smells, etc?

2. You also realize that beause you have sensors (think of your nose, ears, eyes, tounge, and skin) you have the ability to analyze a situation. (Self Cognitive therapy, but we'll go into that latter.)



Cognitive Therapy doesn't equate to "(great) control over our own thought processes".

Personal Responsibility (http://www.coping.org/growth/accept.htm) (WOW! Cognitive Therapy can be performed by yourself! Who would have thought!?!?!)

As for your comments on "the blame game": Your observations are accurate (an inherent logical/perceptive flaw in just about all humans, yourself included), though I don't see any correlation to the topic at hand.

Let's look at the thread title;

What are we responsible for?

Let's look at the blame game historically:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_g2699/is_0006/ai_2699000608

To water it down for you because you obviously can't even answer the most basic question of why you made this thread, If something good happens from a decision a person willingly made, then they want to take responsibility. (Historically and in the business world when the "new guy" takes a risk and it paid off, everyone else wants to take credit for it himself included.) A historical example is the work Gus Avrakotos did. If someone makes a bad decision that results in bad things happening, they want to blame it on something else. (I decided to climb that old rotted wooden ladder, It broke,I fell and busted my knee up, but it is the ladders fault that I decided to climb on it even though it was in disrepair therfore the ladder is responsible for my busted knee, not me.) A historical point is the Nazi's at the Nuremburg Trials.

If you can't figure out how the blame game relates to this thread, then you really need to evaluate your thought processes relating to personal responsibility.

Let's see if you can reedeem yourself in figuring out how all of this ties into responsibility, or are you going to stop replying until you get one other person to reply first?

As I said before, your "blame game" comments are irrelevant to the discussion. People like to take credit for good things and disown bad things. It's a valid, interesting observation, but how does it relate to the topic of "What dictates our behavior?"?

Moving on, the central idea of "personal responsibility" is that you have control over everything you do. Our position is that that is not true, and that subconscious processes out of our control are really calling the shots.

Although actually proving either side (via discussion) is probably impossible, I'd like to see you provide a compelling argument in defense of your thoughts. As of now, nothing you've said even challenges our side, as you haven't shown that humans are entities. If you can't convince us that humans may indeed be entities in control of their own actions, then I don't see how you can so definitively disagree with us.

As I said before, your "blame game" comments are irrelevant to the discussion. People like to take credit for good things and disown bad things. It's a valid, interesting observation, but how does it relate to the topic of "What dictates our behavior?"?

Moving on, the central idea of "personal responsibility" is that you have control over everything you do. Our position is that that is not true, and that subconscious processes out of our control are really calling the shots.

Although actually proving either side (via discussion) is probably impossible, I'd like to see you provide a compelling argument in defense of your thoughts. As of now, nothing you've said even challenges our side, as you haven't shown that humans are entities. If you can't convince us that humans may indeed be entities in control of their own actions, then I don't see how you can so definitively disagree with us.

I already have proven my point. I also proved that people like to disown their actions when they end up takeing a turn for the worse. What you attempted to do in this thread has been attempted throughout history.

You can not prove anything, nor can you discredit anything I have proven. The answer is in the first question I asked you that you did not answer, but you are afraid to answer it.

I already have proven my point. I also proved that people like to disown their actions when they end up takeing a turn for the worse. What you attempted to do in this thread has been attempted throughout history.

You can not prove anything, nor can you discredit anything I have proven. The answer is in the first question I asked you that you did not answer, but you are afraid to answer it.

Heh. Sure thing, little guy.

Heh. Sure thing, little guy.

Admitting defeat, you're almost there, but I'd rather see you answer my first question.

Nothing is truly 'free' if there is something influencing it. Therefore only nothing is free. Coincidentally, I'm delving into Taoism right now.

1. You just now realized that you process things such as sights, sounds, smells, etc?

2. You also realize that beause you have sensors (think of your nose, ears, eyes, tounge, and skin) you have the ability to analyze a situation. (Self Cognitive therapy, but we'll go into that latter.)


1) What? Obviously you are taking my statement on the wrong level.

2) The problem is that it isn't really 'you' analyzing it. It's already been analyzed and then the 'decision' is retroactively passed by the conscious, thus making 'you' think it was 'your' decision. In reality, 'you' are being tricked into a feeling of control.

Since we are the product of both our genes and our environment, to what extent can we be responsible for our actions?

That's to the say, the person who is highly motivated for success is that way because his mind developed that way. The person who is a motivationless louse is that way because his mind developed that way. Even the murderer or rapist is that way because they've developed that way.

Of course, barring mental disorders, most people have enough cognitive ability to understand the law, and understand that their needs may violate it. They may want to rape, but they can usually channel that energy elsewhere to avoid legal (or moral) consequences.

But alas, what if someone can't bring themselves to channel their illegal/amoral actions elsewhere? From a philosophical, psychological, and legal standpoint, are they really responsible? It seems to me that our mental processes are responsible for every single thing we do, but we have little to no control over our mental processes, or how they came to be.

And I suppose a simplification of this is basically the question of the drug addict who goes to buy more drugs. Is he responsible, or is the drug that is affecting his mental processes responsible? Is he responsible for initially taking the drug, or is that a result of uncontrollable mental processes too?

When responding, please be clear about whether your addressing the philosophical, psychological, or legal part of this issue. (ie. If you think that someone can't be held responsible for what they do, what is the role of the legal system in dealing with such people?)

Lastly, I realize this is a loaded question, as I'm essentially asking whether we biologically have free will. So, discuss away.

i read somewhere where some guy killed someone, and said the devil made me do it, and when the judge said can u prove that and the guy said can u prove he didnt, and got off with no charges, or some shit like that

i read somewhere where some guy killed someone, and said the devil made me do it, and when the judge said can u prove that and the guy said can u prove he didnt, and got off with no charges, or some shit like that

As has been handed down from generation to generation by the almighty gods of totse, pix or it didn't happen.

Seeing as I'm not prepared to tolerate some utter fuck-up causing me trouble, and then be allowed to continue doing so 'because he's not responsible', I would say the answer to your question is: everything.

Your thoughts and your actions. There is only so much your genes and your upbringing have influence on, the rest you can change. Be it personality, habits, or body shape.

Have you played Metal Gear Solid 1? It's got some interesting thoughts on the subject.

1) What? Obviously you are taking my statement on the wrong level.

2) The problem is that it isn't really 'you' analyzing it. It's already been analyzed and then the 'decision' is retroactively passed by the conscious, thus making 'you' think it was 'your' decision. In reality, 'you' are being tricked into a feeling of control.

1. No, I told you what the brain does. Picture it like a CPU and Hard drive for your body. You have senosrs and you decide what to do with them.

2. If you are using your logic, "you".

Another fun fact, Which one stops first, the brain or the heart?

1. No, I told you what the brain does. Picture it like a CPU and Hard drive for your body. You have senosrs and you decide what to do with them.


Talking from your ass certainly isn't helping your point. While I'm not going to give you a lesson in sensation and perception, the basic process is that receptors (visual, audio, pain, temperature, etc.) pick up outside information, your brain automatically processes them, and then your brain forms a perception of the stimulus. It's not a conscious process.

The real focus here is the behavior that occurs after we've formed a perception of a stimulus. There's no need to derail the thread with off-topic, incorrect ideas about how the nervous system works.


Another fun fact, Which one stops first, the brain or the heart?

"Hey, fun fact: How many bones are in your feet?"

Do you have ADD or something?

Your thoughts and your actions. There is only so much your genes and your upbringing have influence on, the rest you can change.

What are you saying is "only so much"? To me it seems that just about everything is determined by genes and your upbringing (particularly your upbringing).

Perhaps we can guide our thought processes or push them in a certain direction, but I'm of the belief that HOW we think has already been programmed into us. Take a rapist, for instance. This person's mind operates in a particular way, and when you put a stimulus in front of him, his rape-focused thought processes will begin rolling. All of his reasoning and logic will eventually lead him toward rapist behavior.

I'm not suggesting sympathy or legal leniency, but I think that once we have been shaped to be something, we won't have any/much real control over what we do.

What are you saying is "only so much"? To me it seems that just about everything is determined by genes and your upbringing (particularly your upbringing).

Perhaps we can guide our thought processes or push them in a certain direction, but I'm of the belief that HOW we think has already been programmed into us. Take a rapist, for instance. This person's mind operates in a particular way, and when you put a stimulus in front of him, his rape-focused thought processes will begin rolling. All of his reasoning and logic will eventually lead him toward rapist behavior.

I'm not suggesting sympathy or legal leniency, but I think that once we have been shaped to be something, we won't have any/much real control over what we do.

I think the most important things we get from our upbringing are moral qualities (whether we feel guilt over certain things) and how open/close minded we are. If you're open-minded, there is no "rape-focused thought processes", because you consider different points of view and different ways of thinking. If we are biorobots, then our consciousness is completely useless. I don't believe it would exist for no reason at all.

Talking from your ass certainly isn't helping your point. While I'm not going to give you a lesson in sensation and perception, the basic process is that receptors (visual, audio, pain, temperature, etc.) pick up outside information, your brain automatically processes them, and then your brain forms a perception of the stimulus. It's not a conscious process.

The real focus here is the behavior that occurs after we've formed a perception of a stimulus. There's no need to derail the thread with off-topic, incorrect ideas about how the nervous system works.



"Hey, fun fact: How many bones are in your feet?"

Do you have ADD or something?

You still haven't answered my question. The only things you personally can not controll is what your nerves send back to your brain. How you process it is up to you.

So are you going to answer my question like I have yours, or are you going to try to attack credibility (a clear sign that you are on the losing end of the debate)

You still haven't answered my question. The only things you personally can not controll is what your nerves send back to your brain. How you process it is up to you.

....or are you going to try to attack credibility

You're killing your own credibility by saying things that are false. What I explained in my last post was a brief summary of what you'll find in any psychology text on senses and perception. If you want to talk about the acts of rationalizing or conscious thinking, go for it, but as for what you're discussing now? No.

With everything that you experience, your mind works automatically to percieve the stimulus. It pulls from past experiences and based on what category the stimulus best fits into, you'll have a certain perception. This ranges from how you react to images, to sounds, to people, to everything. Rationalization can occur, of course, but it's only going to happen after your mind has automatically formed a perception.

This is off-topic, once again, but I felt it important to correct you.

You're killing your own credibility by saying things that are false.

This is off-topic, once again, but I felt it important to correct you.

You never answered my question.

Why did you make this thread? Go for the most basic reason why.

Oh the Humanities! Philosophy, Law, Historical Debate, and War.

You just lied again. So much for honesty on your part.

Cognitive therapy and personal responsibility prove that you have control over your perception.

The only things you can not control are:

What you physically see, smell, touch, hear, and taste. What you decide to do with those things is completely up to you.

You never answered my question.





You just lied again. So much for honesty on your part.

Cognitive therapy and personal responsibility prove that you have control over your perception.

The only things you can not control are:

What you physically see, smell, touch, hear, and taste. What you decide to do with those things is completely up to you.

I've already previously explained how cognitive therapy is not "control over perceptions". You'll need to actually address that instead of just saying "LOL NO". Furthermore, simply citing the concept of "personal responsibility" does not prove anything either. That's like saying "Happiness proves that you can control your perceptions."

Lastly, no matter how much you want to argue, you're spouting crap that goes against everything that scientists have vigorously proven through scientific experiments and research. Aside from being a clown, do you have anything more to bring to this thread?

=DerDrache, I addressed and proved all of your points wrong. You still fail to answer a very basic question.

Not only have you lied, misquoted me, and admitted that you are not here to gain knowledge, you still won't answer a very simple question.

It is a simple question nothing more nothing less.

Everything is a sum of the events before us. We are all governed by the same chemical laws in our brain, and with enough super computer vector analysis, we could figure out how anything would react in the universe; etc.

Everything is sort of pre-destined due to physical and chemical laws.

So, no one is responsible for anything.

[This assumes no soul, which would probably lead to a religious debate which the above hypothesis is false].

Everything is a sum of the events before us. We are all governed by the same chemical laws in our brain, and with enough super computer vector analysis, we could figure out how anything would react in the universe; etc.

Everything is sort of pre-destined due to physical and chemical laws.

So, no one is responsible for anything.

[This assumes no soul, which would probably lead to a religious debate which the above hypothesis is false].

Forget soul.

Quantum physics is not deterministic. There's the problem with your argument right there.

Everything is a sum of the events before us. We are all governed by the same chemical laws in our brain, and with enough super computer vector analysis, we could figure out how anything would react in the universe; etc.

Everything is sort of pre-destined due to physical and chemical laws.

So, no one is responsible for anything.

[This assumes no soul, which would probably lead to a religious debate which the above hypothesis is false].

Do you think everything that happens in the world is connected...along the lines of the "butterfly effect"? (ie. a butterfly flaps it's wings, and a hurricane occurs somewhere around the world because of it)

If that extends to human behavior, that's pretty awesome/wild.

Do you think everything that happens in the world is connected...along the lines of the "butterfly effect"? (ie. a butterfly flaps it's wings, and a hurricane occurs somewhere around the world because of it)

If that extends to human behavior, that's pretty awesome/wild.

Well the way I see it; we must all obey gravity.
People can't just stop obeying gravity... much like we cannot stop certain chemicals in our brain, and certain memories from resulting in an outcome. In my thoughts, the universe has been working forwards from the big bang and will continue on the way it is planned whether we like it or not.

This is what you should read:
http://www.cracked.com/article_15746_embrace-horror.html

I know cracked.com is = fail, but still; it makes sense.

Well the way I see it; we must all obey gravity.
People can't just stop obeying gravity... much like we cannot stop certain chemicals in our brain, and certain memories from resulting in an outcome. In my thoughts, the universe has been working forwards from the big bang and will continue on the way it is planned whether we like it or not.

This is what you should read:
http://www.cracked.com/article_15746_embrace-horror.html

I know cracked.com is = fail, but still; it makes sense.

That was a pretty good read. I don't really buy into the "everything is destined" thing, nor do I think they explored all possible answers to the microscope/subatomic particles mystery, but some of what he talks about is really interesting.

I definitely have been part of that "good/bad" camp until now, but I'm going to try to distance myself from it. I actually am feeling kind of liberated. Thanks.