My buddy Ian has been growing interest in Hermeticism lately, which has brought back much of my own studies into it, and experiences with it. At peaks of spiritual connectivity, I operate quite harmonically with what I believe to be the unnameable parallels Hermetic Law attempts to express.

I was wondering what you, men and women of My God, think/feel about the Hermetics.

The only source about Hermeticism I've read in detail is The Kybalion. It's fascinating and insightful, however, so far, it fails to satisfy my mind. The crux of this disatisfaction may very well lie in the teachings of the writers of The Kybalion or in my own lack of comprehension. In a nutshell the dissatisfaction arises from apparent contradictions. For starters the teachers assert:
I. THE PRINCIPLE OF MENTALISM

"THE ALL IS MIND; The Universe is Mental." -- The Kybalion.
This Principle embodies the truth that "All is Mind." It explains that THE ALL (which is the Substantial Reality underlying all the outward manifestations and appearances which we know under the terms of "The Material Universe"; the "Phenomena of Life"; "Matter"; "Energy"; and, in short, all that is apparent to our material senses) is SPIRIT which in itself is UNKNOWABLE and UNDEFINABLE, but which may be considered and thought of as AN UNIVERSAL, INFINITE, LIVING MIND.


Note the assertion:"SPIRIT .... is UNKNOWABLE and UNDEFINABLE".

Later the teachers make these statements:
(3) THE ALL must be IMMUTABLE, or not subject to change in its real nature, for there is nothing to work changes upon it nothing into which it could change, nor from which it could have changed. It cannot be added to nor subtracted from; increased nor diminished; nor become greater or lesser in any respect whatsoever. It must have always been, and must always remain, just what it is now--THE ALL--there has never been, is not now, and never will be, anything else into which it can change.

THE ALL being Infinite, Absolute, Eternal and Unchangeable it must follow that anything finite, changeable, fleeting, and conditioned cannot be THE ALL.


All of which seems to contradict "UNKNOWABLE and UNDEFINABLE" and which also seems to contradict the
III. THE PRINCIPLE OF VIBRATION

"Nothing rests; everything moves; everything vibrates." -- The Kybalion.

This Principle embodies the truth that "everything is in motion"; "everything vibrates"; "nothing is at rest"

The obvious import being that if everything vibrates then it cannot be "Unchangeable"????

There is much of value however in The Kybalion { http://www.kybalion.org/kybalion.asp } as any seeker of knowledge would appreciate, also there are parallels with The Gospel of Thomas - where the Jesus applies the term 'The All" to ourselves, and himself:
(02) Jesus says:
(1) "The one who seeks should not cease seeking until he finds.
(2) And when he finds, he will be dismayed.
(3) And when he is dismayed, he will be astonished.
(4) And he will be king over the All."
(77) Jesus says:
(1) "I am the light that is over all. I am the All.
The All came forth out of me. And to me the All has come."
(2) "Split a piece of wood – I am there.
(3) Lift the stone, and you will find me there." { http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gth_pat_rob.htm }


Cheers:)

Have you read the Emerald Tablet? It's what the Hermetic Law is based upon...Hermeticism, best as I have ascertained, is best suited to the purpose of leading one to the Emerald Tablet, which is the basis of Yeshua's teaching, among many other spiritual leaders.

Looks like the normal religious/spiritual cryptobabble.

Looks like the normal religious/spiritual cryptobabble.

Only if you choose that it be so. You may also choose, as I do, to see the profundity and wisdom therein.

OP, I would remind you of something that Stephen Gaskin said, and I wish I had his book here so I get the quote perfect--remember that "vibration" is a figure of speech. Obviously, everything in the physical world, from galaxies to quarks, moves or "vibrates," but as rule, when you are talking metaphysics, you don't want to take the whole "vibes" thing too literally.

BTW, thanks for starting the thread--it is perfect for one of the people I just did a psychic reading for.

Please...if you can't understand this 'cryptobabble', go back to grade school and take better care to understand how language operates. Afterwards, return to high school to then understand how imagery and metaphor operate. Defend your 'understanding' if you want, but this is truly simple shit...calling it 'cryptobabble' shows an amazing lack of understanding of very simple ideas and wording. Given even an ounce of willingness to understand these ideas, they accurately reflect grand schemes throughout all life.

Only if you choose that it be so. You may also choose, as I do, to see the profundity and wisdom therein.

OP, I would remind you of something that Stephen Gaskin said, and I wish I had his book here so I get the quote perfect--remember that "vibration" is a figure of speech. Obviously, everything in the physical world, from galaxies to quarks, moves or "vibrates," but as rule, when you are talking metaphysics, you don't want to take the whole "vibes" thing too literally.

BTW, thanks for starting the thread--it is perfect for one of the people I just did a psychic reading for.

Ain't no thang AM. I may be a psycho-Christian lunatic, or whatever you prefer to call those who believe Yeshua an avatar...but I'm always glad to look at history and other belief systems, faiths, and metaphysical knowledge sources.

1)

Spirit = in itself is unknowable and undefinable; can be considered a universal/mind

My understanding is that the "spirit" in our level of being is difficult to understand - thus, not COMPLETELY knowable. Through this inability of our limitations and mind, we can attempt to imagine the "spirit" as universal / infinite / living / mind.

Just because we make lines, circles, dots axioms in math and define them doesn't mean we KNOW what they really are! That is why we call them axioms.

It all comes down to semantics - and the fact that the Kyballion was written by people who CLAIMED to be disciples of Tehuty (thoth). Not saying that their work is bad - but you can never really trust interns/initiates :).

Redzed, I'll offer my interpretation of that, if you don't mind. Well... Actually it doesn't matter if you mind, I'm gonna do it anyway :D

The All doesn't change it that it MUST contain everything and be everything, literallay it must be the All. Let me try an analogy; imagine looking at a Football from the outside, unless you do something it doesn't seem to change, it is just a ball; bt if we were to take a close up and detailed look at the ball, inside and out, we would see what would be change, the air moving around inside the ball, atoms moving in whatever wayatoms do... Hope that makes sense.

Another way of saying what I'm trying to, is: you know how within a contained system (or however it was phrased) energy is neither created nor destroyed? Well although the energy within the All may move round change forms, etc, it still contains the same stuff that it had in the beginning.


In other words, change requires something external, and there can be nothing external to the all or it ceases to be all.

Finally, Spirit cannot be defined or known. If one is within the All, occupying a single space, then there is much that is external to oneself, and in the same way that you cannot know what a person is thinking because you are not that person, you cannot know the All, because you are not the all. If that makes sense.
You cannot define All, because you would literally have to define everything, and to define something you must know it, so to define the All you must know All.

I hope that made some sense, and you'll have to forgive how every so often 'll have words and letters missing, my Keyboard keeps failing to recognise the fact that I'm typing.

Edit: But to stay on Topic, I rather like the idea of hermeticism, even if I haven't gone that far into it.

Have you read the Emerald Tablet? It's what the Hermetic Law is based upon...Hermeticism, best as I have ascertained, is best suited to the purpose of leading one to the Emerald Tablet, which is the basis of Yeshua's teaching, among many other spiritual leaders.

No I had not. Web search turned up lots of translations, and much hearsay as to it's origin. On first reading a description of "cryptobabble"(KS) seemed apt:) however after discovering Newton's translation and a bunch of others who seemed to value the knowledge therein I've made a hard copy and am currently attempting to understand it. Sun/Father = Spirit and Moon/Mother = Matter gives some insight but I'd like to hear your interpretation. What does it mean to you?

:D

I am buying a book on this esoteric pagan tradition. But I know that Hermiticism is the pagan root of some of the most brilliant minds of the ancient world: Pythagoras, Plato, Aristotle, Socrates to name a few. It was an Egyptian tradition. The most famous piece of work that the general public knows about is most likely The Emerald Tablet.

Before discovering the Esoteric, I was on the New Age current. With things like The Secret, I bought the DVD and they showed a green brick with writings on it. I did research on the Green Brick to find out what i really was called: The emerald Tablet. Obviously The Secret is mostly (like 90%) false or misleading. The most known law is The Law of Attraction and The Law of Vibration, however, because research was marginalized to maximize profits The Secret never mentioned it. So now the world has an improper understanding of two esoteric laws....

Interestingly, esoteric religions of the ancient days helped influence some of the most praised minds of the western society especially our modern western society. Most people dont realize the connection between esoteric beliefs that shaped this modern world.

Looks like the normal religious/spiritual cryptobabble.

That is b/c that is exactly what it is. It more reminds me of the nonsense you read from Scientology papers, than of the traditional christian cult book.

I bet Charlie Manson could right stuff like this ALL DAY LONG.

Please...if you can't understand this 'cryptobabble', go back to grade school and take better care to understand how language operates. Afterwards, return to high school to then understand how imagery and metaphor operate. Defend your 'understanding' if you want, but this is truly simple shit...calling it 'cryptobabble' shows an amazing lack of understanding of very simple ideas and wording. Given even an ounce of willingness to understand these ideas, they accurately reflect grand schemes throughout all life.

It is the way it is worded. It can be written more simply. Why isn't it?

Because then it would not seem to be as true. To answer such complex things, the answer itself is taken more seriously if it seems complex. Not so complex that you can't understand it, we want to reach the sheep with it after all, but just complex enough to give it that ring of authenticity.

Or cryptobabble.

That is b/c that is exactly what it is. It more reminds me of the nonsense you read from Scientology papers, than of the traditional christian cult book.

I bet Charlie Manson could right stuff like this ALL DAY LONG.

You come from a completely different side of thinking and perceiving the world. If you think its BS than fine. Hey, you never bothered to follow the life so you don't know, do ya? If you don't know than your judgment is based off on ignorance... So keep talking, keep thinking your the shit, keep being ignorant, keep being arrogant, keep exalting yourself because, whatever you say concerning religion is largely true but the spiritual pursuit is largely false. That's the fact of the matter.

"Charles Mason was a symbol for literary works, characterized by a grim or ghastly atmosphere. In these works, there is an emphasis on the details and symbols of death. Macabre themes are often preoccupations in the Goth subculture." Goth's don't tread here, they tread if anything in Wicca and Witches and if they are really out their perhaps Satanism. Hey, you want stereotype as well fine by me but you still don't know.

So keep that in mind folks:

If You Don't Know than you are ignorant. If you are ignorant that whatever you have to say holds no water. So just keep talking and insulting... It will get you nowhere anytime soon.

Only if you choose that it be so. You may also choose, as I do, to see the profundity and wisdom therein.

OP, I would remind you of something that Stephen Gaskin said, and I wish I had his book here so I get the quote perfect--remember that "vibration" is a figure of speech. Obviously, everything in the physical world, from galaxies to quarks, moves or "vibrates," but as rule, when you are talking metaphysics, you don't want to take the whole "vibes" thing too literally.

BTW, thanks for starting the thread--it is perfect for one of the people I just did a psychic reading for.

Arms, I hope you see this post, because I am officially freaked the fuck out. In a good way though. I never visit this forum, and but I just happened to catch a glimpse of the topic on the "Hot Topics" list, so I clicked it. Lo and behold, here you are talking about me :)

Hey, you never bothered to follow the life so you don't know, do ya?

You sure about that?

Or are you being ignorant?

It is the way it is worded. It can be written more simply. Why isn't it?

Because then it would not seem to be as true. To answer such complex things, the answer itself is taken more seriously if it seems complex. Not so complex that you can't understand it, we want to reach the sheep with it after all, but just complex enough to give it that ring of authenticity.

Or cryptobabble.


Poetry dude; not everyone wants to read text books.

This is what I think of all yr babble:


A man staring at his equations
said that the universe had a beginning.
There had been an explosion, he said.
A bang of bangs, and the universe was born.
And it is expanding, he said.
He had even calculated the length of its life:
ten billions revolutions of the earth around the sun.
The entire globe cheered;
They found his calculations to be a science.
None that that by proposing that the universe began,
the man had merely mirrored the syntax of his mother tongue;
a syntax which demands beginnings, like birth,
and developments, like maturations,
and ends, like death, as statements of facts.
The universe began,
and it is getting old, the man assured us,
and it will die, like all things die,
like he himself died after confirming mathematically
the syntax of his mother tongue.

Poetry dude; not everyone wants to read text books.

Hold the fuck on....

That suggest that holy texts are more entertainment than educational or informative.

Aren't these books supposed to inform us of what we as humans are to do to get into a specific afterlife? That is some pretty important information.

If true, that information is more important than having a manual on how to defuse a bomb, while your attempting to defuse a bomb. More important b/c if true, whats mortality compared to eternity?

Now imagine that the bomb diffusing manual is written in riddles, and poems.

KABOOM.

That suggest that holy texts are more entertainment than educational or informative.


I find Scientific texts to be entertaining, educational, and informative.
I consider metaphysic poetry to be Scientific.
I consider algebraic poetry to be Scientific.
Biology is a language that must be learned, and please don't expect instant gratification, same can be said about Spirituality.
There exist many different languages in which concepts (physical and meta) can be expressed, however, theory and practice are not the same thing. To understand something, that thing must be practiced.

Hold the fuck on....

That suggest that holy texts are more entertainment than educational or informative.

Aren't these books supposed to inform us of what we as humans are to do to get into a specific afterlife? That is some pretty important information.

If true, that information is more important than having a manual on how to defuse a bomb, while your attempting to defuse a bomb. More important b/c if true, whats mortality compared to eternity?

Now imagine that the bomb diffusing manual is written in riddles, and poems.

KABOOM.


I wasn't suggesting that, no.

What I was suggesting was that when people express themselves and their beliefs an ideas many of them prefer not to write in bullet-points.

And to go back to your post: First of all let's clarify something so we can understand
each other; I don't belief religious texts are a manual to get into a specific afterlife, and even if there were an afterlife I would'nt believe that it would be a one time do-or-be-damned kind of thing, in my mind it would be something progressive. Or maybe not, I don't know.

Secondly, maybe an instruction manual may be suited for putting up a shelf, or un-blowing-up a bomb, but perhaps when it comes to ideas and beliefs; poetry and prose are more effective ways of expressing ideas. Perhaps the ideas expressed in religious texts etc can only be expressed through the use of various literary devices, and maybe, just maybe, there's nothing wrong with writing for an audience who can understand something that isn't written bulletpoints.

And to go back to your post: First of all let's clarify something so we can understand each other; I don't belief religious texts are a manual to get into a specific afterlife

Then what is the point of a religious text if not to explain to us how we should live in order for a particular result (i.e. utopia, afterlife)?

Nearly all religious texts tell people how they should live and why and the consequences of doing or not doing so.

Many times these consequences are very great or very bad.

So why not write as clear and concise as you can about this idea, so that people will not fuck it up, misinterpret, or bend it for their own greedy uses?

Secondly, maybe an instruction manual may be suited for putting up a shelf, or un-blowing-up a bomb, but perhaps when it comes to ideas and beliefs; poetry and prose are more effective ways of expressing ideas.

Poetry and prose may be a wonderful way of expressing idea and belief, but they are not better at expressing instruction than a concise and clearly written instruction manual.

Religion, many, many, many times, is instruction for living and dying.

Not to mention that if you area suggesting religion is idea on how to live, then how does it differ from a self-help book? Why is it considered sacred and "If you can Will it, you can do it" is not.

Not enough Christian bashing=Moving to SotD

Moving to SotD

Fear not, OP -

nshanin's not really a mod. He just plays one, on Totse.

Fear not, OP -

nshanin's not really a mod. He just plays one, on Totse.

Nah, just on this forum.

It is the way it is worded. It can be written more simply. Why isn't it?

Because then it would not seem to be as true. To answer such complex things, the answer itself is taken more seriously if it seems complex. Not so complex that you can't understand it, we want to reach the sheep with it after all, but just complex enough to give it that ring of authenticity.

Or cryptobabble.

Or maybe enough complexity to keep the imagination sparked, and thus, keep the reader's interest?

This may be hard to understand, but most people aren't going to sit down and read a list like the following and then take it as THE key to an easy and peaceful life:
1. Dedicate your self to a cause greater than self preservation
2. Be honest
3. Work for your goals
4. Fellowship with other humans
5. Keep an open mind
6. Give freely what is given

For the average person...whether it be because they are completely fucking insane or just incapable of self-discipline, cannot see a set of instructions like that and simply follow them. Wrapping those six ideals up in religion and mythology is just about the only way most people will ever come to focus on them enough to put them into practice.

Hell BP, I'm going to take a wild guess here and say that it's likely YOU have trouble practicing those ideals in your life. Well, I'll be honest about why I think that: You come off as a miserable prick much of the time, which results ONLY from the contraries to those ideals:
1. Dedication to instincts as master
2. Deception
3. Laziness
4. Isolation
5. Intolerance
6. Hoarding of wisdom and possession

I'm not saying you never do things for other people, or lie all the time, or don't ever work, or don't have friends, or can't accept some viewpoints, or are completely bitter about helping others...but I am saying that when you're in a shit mood (which does come across through text, whether we try to hide it or not), that it's because of one of those things. Self-serving, lying (be it by omission or falsehood), laying around, being alone, taking self-perception as truth, and selfishness are bitches man...they fuck your mojo up and take down the folks around you.

Well, if you get something from this, rock on. If not, alright then.

And as for the afterlife comment, BP: Yeah, it'd be even nicer to get into some magical resort after I die for doing these things...but sincerely, those six ideals bring peace and joy while I'm here.

This may be hard to understand, but most people aren't going to sit down and read a list like the following and then take it as THE key to an easy and peaceful life:
1. Dedicate your self to a cause greater than self preservation
2. Be honest
3. Work for your goals
4. Fellowship with other humans
5. Keep an open mind
6. Give freely what is given

You come off as a miserable prick much of the time, which results ONLY from the contraries to those ideals:
1. Dedication to instincts as master
2. Deception
3. Laziness
4. Isolation
5. Intolerance
6. Hoarding of wisdom and possession

Well, if you get something from this, rock on.

I think you did a great job of putting these ideals and their opposites into words.

These things may seem obvious when we read them, but I think it would be a lot harder for most people to express their ideals as written words, and to even begin to understand the opposites of those ideals. You seem to put a lot of thought into it; good job!

By Hermeticism you mean The Hermetic Order of The Golden Dawn.I first read about them when researching about Crowley. But I am not sure what they believe because I never really did a in depth research about them. So I have no view either way.