I feel really sorry for them. It's not that I have a problem with their religion specifically, but I feel as if they take things way too far.

They try ridiculously hard to pull some divine meaning from the bible, and whenever I attempt to inject them with truth and logic they quickly put up the jesus shield.

aka, an impenetrable force field of ignorance.

They also like to refer to atheism as a "religion" even though I try to explain to them that atheism is simply the omission from any belief of a god.

Why must they insist on maintaining a blind spot for their own religion's faults yet they are so easy to denounce another?

To be honest, a four year old could put a few holes in the christian belief with a few simple questions.

For example:

"Mommy, why did Jesus descend into hell?"

"Why did God send Jesus to die on the cross and save people from their sins, when he could just done it instantly since he's god?"

Christians try too hard to cover up the holes in their beliefs with irrational logic. They also make nonsense excuses for god's absence of power.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not just another atheist douche bag who likes to insult religions. I understand that they're part of cultures and traditions, but it ails me to see my friends engage in such idiocy.

Sadly, they know no better. I know that I will never get through to them. If only they could step out of their bubble of delusion to see the world with clarity.

They are weak to depend on some magic savior as if he will really help them whatsoever. They blindly stumble around in the dark waiting for something to guide them, but of course they search to no avail. In their minds, their "savior" has touched their lives, but it's all in the mind. The mind makes what it wants out of things.

It's all illusions. They can be satisfying to give into, but they will be nothing more than mirages.

The lies you may or may not choose to believe don't matter.

at least not in the end.

One more atheist faggot here to join the circlejerk.

Who's more close-minded: your friends, with their insistence on how Jesus died for their sins? Or you, with your insistence on there being no God, pretending to feel sorry for them to make yourself feel better than you are?

One more atheist faggot here to join the circlejerk.

Who's more close-minded: your friends, with their insistence on how Jesus died for their sins? Or you, with your insistence on there being no God, pretending to feel sorry for them to make yourself feel better than you are?

haha ZING.

Dont try to convert your friends.

I agree that the problem may be you. Why can't you accept them for who they are?

One more atheist faggot here to join the circlejerk.

Who's more close-minded: your friends, with their insistence on how Jesus died for their sins? Or you, with your insistence on there being no God, pretending to feel sorry for them to make yourself feel better than you are?

^This.

And of course posting on a forum about how bad you feel for your friends isn't taking things far either, right?

One more atheist faggot here to join the circlejerk.

Who's more close-minded: your friends, with their insistence on how Jesus died for their sins? Or you, with your insistence on there being no God, pretending to feel sorry for them to make yourself feel better than you are?

Oh c'mon zek, ease up a bit. I'm not being close-minded.
I never said there was no god. I do believe in an omnipresent energy that's responsible for all the positive things in the universe. So I have no "insistence" at all.

Just because you're strung out on antidepressants and couldn't satisfy kristen doesn't give you the license to be a jerk.

^This.

And of course posting on a forum about how bad you feel for your friends isn't taking things far either, right?

No, it isn't taking things far at all, compared to the things a fundie christian can do.

I agree that the problem may be you. Why can't you accept them for who they are?

I do accept them for who they are. I just question some of the things they believe. Big deal.

I came here to put down my thoughts. I still love and accept my friends.

Right now, the friends are stuck in a stage one state consciousness. In time they may evolve.

Meanwhile, OPs best course is to not only accept them, but forgive them for any errors he perceives in them, and forgive himself for being judgemental.

That is unfortunate.

So you love them and still accept them. Then whats up, G?

I mean, whats the problem? So they're stupid ... you have no right to change that, you probably won't be able to change that anyways, and wanting to change it and not being able to is obviously causing you to suffer over the issue.

Why? If you actually accepted them, then these things wouldn't bother you. You wouldn't feel this need to 'fix' them, because you would accept them as they are.

Stop judging them, and either accept them or find new friends you can be happy with. Or both.

I feel really sorry for them. It's not that I have a problem with their religion specifically, but I feel as if they take things way too far.

They try ridiculously hard to pull some divine meaning from the bible, and whenever I attempt to inject them with truth and logic they quickly put up the jesus shield.

aka, an impenetrable force field of ignorance.

They also like to refer to atheism as a "religion" even though I try to explain to them that atheism is simply the omission from any belief of a god.

Why must they insist on maintaining a blind spot for their own religion's faults yet they are so easy to denounce another?

To be honest, a four year old could put a few holes in the christian belief with a few simple questions.

For example:

"Mommy, why did Jesus descend into hell?"

"Why did God send Jesus to die on the cross and save people from their sins, when he could just done it instantly since he's god?"

Christians try too hard to cover up the holes in their beliefs with irrational logic. They also make nonsense excuses for god's absence of power.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not just another atheist douche bag who likes to insult religions. I understand that they're part of cultures and traditions, but it ails me to see my friends engage in such idiocy.

Sadly, they know no better. I know that I will never get through to them. If only they could step out of their bubble of delusion to see the world with clarity.

They are weak to depend on some magic savior as if he will really help them whatsoever. They blindly stumble around in the dark waiting for something to guide them, but of course they search to no avail. In their minds, their "savior" has touched their lives, but it's all in the mind. The mind makes what it wants out of things.

It's all illusions. They can be satisfying to give into, but they will be nothing more than mirages.

The lies you may or may not choose to believe don't matter.

at least not in the end.

http://godhabeeb.ytmnd.com/

tell me ab out shit.

*kicks stones*

I do accept them for who they are. I just question some of the things they believe. Big deal.

I came here to put down my thoughts. I still love and accept my friends.

If you love and accept your friends, then why do you question something that makes them happy, content, comforted, or makes them feel good? Their belief in the christian god isn't harming you or themselves.

Their belief in the christian god isn't harming you or themselves.

Actually, it kind of is. From his perspective, they're wasting their time worshipping a nonexistent deity, praying, going to church, etc.

Also, this belief might harm their offspring, in the form of circumcision.

Christians try too hard to cover up the holes in their beliefs with irrational logic.

Is this not the common theme amongst all peoples? Is every or any human being capable of having a powerful and absolute answer or reason to every question begot to them or every action committed by them? Peoples is humans and as humans we have to learn that there are limits--which bind us to mindless repeatitive tasks and free us from these same tortures-- and for the children they must learn their parents are not gods, are not perfect and will never have all answers.

Sometimes, to not know is to learn.

I'd be willing to wager that the majority of these folks were Christians when you first befriended them. Am I right? There must have been something about their personalities that you enjoyed, otherwise you wouldn't have elected to hang out with them. Sometimes after we get really familiar with people, we tend to focus more on what we perceive to be their negative traits rather than their positive ones - and quickly lose sight of the real reasons they're our friends.

You say you still love and accept them, and that's great. My guess is that you're feeling a little isolated from them, maybe even feeling a little bit like an outsider, or that you're drifting away due to the one thing you don't have in common with one another. I can certainly relate to that! Not to say that you're jealous that they have imaginary friends and you don't, but just that it would be preferable to have more shared interests.

You came to the right place to vent about it. My suggestion is to just forgive them for being gullible human beings, and hope that they'll do the same for you if you ever fall prey to gullibility, yourself. :)

Actually, it kind of is. From his perspective, they're wasting their time worshipping a nonexistent deity, praying, going to church, etc.

Also, this belief might harm their offspring, in the form of circumcision.

Yes, from his perspective. Should we use his perspective to determine what is and isn't a waste of time? Should we condemn his friends or their beliefs for what they might do?

All you can do is speak your mind, help to make them better, more self reliant people. Give them the tools they would need to deal with the world without god.
Peace and love to all, especially those Jesuits who won't have a bar of it.

Actually, it kind of is. From his perspective, they're wasting their time worshipping a nonexistent deity, praying, going to church, etc.

Also, this belief might harm their offspring, in the form of circumcision.

His friends will never really live their lives. Practising Christianity means suppressing your nature, sexuality, self-imposing attitudes and values you would never otherwise hold, losing your ability to think for yourself, etc. I'd be concerned if I had friends who were as religious as his.

Oh c'mon zek, ease up a bit. I'm not being close-minded.
I never said there was no god. I do believe in an omnipresent energy that's responsible for all the positive things in the universe. So I have no "insistence" at all.

Just because you're strung out on antidepressants and couldn't satisfy kristen doesn't give you the license to be a jerk.

ROFL.
This is the biggest ownage I've seen on TOTSE in a while.


On topic:
Yeah just ignore them, disown them as your friends.

I agree that the problem may be you. Why can't you accept them for who they are?

This.

I don't believe in god, but I don't try to get other people to not believe.

I got a friend that acts like atheism is a cult. His myspace name is "the atheist", his background is adults shouldn't have imaginary friends and shit like that. Like I said I don't believe in god either, but both sides need to grow up and fuck off.

Everyone is entitled to their own ridiculous speculations. Ultimatly it is irrelevant because beliefs do not change the outcome; if people feel content with their beliefs and can still play nicely with hands to themselves then to each their own.

Oh c'mon zek, ease up a bit. I'm not being close-minded.
I never said there was no god. I do believe in an omnipresent energy that's responsible for all the positive things in the universe. So I have no "insistence" at all.

Just because you're strung out on antidepressants and couldn't satisfy kristen doesn't give you the license to be a jerk.

I guess Judge not, would apply here huh Zek?

Or glass houses, throw stones?

Either way, I imagine you downed half a bottle after reading this.

If you can save one, do it. The best advice is to not debate with them. You have encountered the religious mental wall. They will want to debate with you to reaffirm their beliefs.

Don't. Do not allow them to answer their doubt by rebounding their ideas off of you. Let that doubt destroy their delusion.

Simply tell them you choose not to believe, and couldn't be happier.

What do they need to be saved from?

Don't listen to any of the theist assholes. You're the right one, and you're not going to stop being the right one anytime soon. Most of them think that there's some massive unseen energy force somewhere guiding everything. I thought that was cool in Star Wars too, but really, do they need to bring it into real life?

I tend not to have friends that are religious. It just pisses me off. Why would anyone remain in such wilful ignorance? Why would they support something so destructive and horrible? Why would they believe such ridiculous things?

I've come to the conclusion that people are just brainwashed into being religious, and then just defend it by having a massive mental blind spot. Like the man said, "Most of us are already atheists for most gods. Some of us just go one god further." I think religious people know, deep down, that they're wrong, they just don't feel like admitting it.

Of course, that either points to them being too ignorant to change or too afraid of acknowleding that the world isn't really a magical golden place. It's like not believing in santa claus: the fact that santa claus is a nice person is a deterrent to disbelief, and that would excuse this, except that deterrent isn't evidently very strong.

Just hit your friends with as much logic as you can whenever they start this. If possible find new friends that don't have imaginary friends. Just correct them when they're wrong, and stay solid. Don't get pissed off, just stay calm and stick to your guns.

While I like Zek, and I call him a good bloke from what I know of him, I don't like what he posted as I rekon that it misses the mark entirely in this particular case (though the stigma behind it is quite justified). You don't seem to be a stereotypical athiest, just an athiest. There is an enormous difference. Stereotypes and generalisations aren't good for too much, especially when taken as more in part of serious consideration. My advice for you comes in three parts; don't allow stereotypes of specific thiests nor 'a'thiests alter how you live and in what you believe (or do not), you are only concerning yourself with a problem that you created of yourself, get over the issue in whichever way you will and move on from there.


If you don't observe this advice, you will become a self loathing sour wanker with more problems than need be, like Prometheum here.

Don't listen to any of the theist assholes. You're the right one, and you're not going to stop being the right one anytime soon. Most of them think that there's some massive unseen energy force somewhere guiding everything. I thought that was cool in Star Wars too, but really, do they need to bring it into real life?

I tend not to have friends that are religious. It just pisses me off. Why would anyone remain in such wilful ignorance? Why would they support something so destructive and horrible? Why would they believe such ridiculous things?

I've come to the conclusion that people are just brainwashed into being religious, and then just defend it by having a massive mental blind spot. Like the man said, "Most of us are already atheists for most gods. Some of us just go one god further." I think religious people know, deep down, that they're wrong, they just don't feel like admitting it.

Of course, that either points to them being too ignorant to change or too afraid of acknowleding that the world isn't really a magical golden place. It's like not believing in santa claus: the fact that santa claus is a nice person is a deterrent to disbelief, and that would excuse this, except that deterrent isn't evidently very strong.

Just hit your friends with as much logic as you can whenever they start this. If possible find new friends that don't have imaginary friends. Just correct them when they're wrong, and stay solid. Don't get pissed off, just stay calm and stick to your guns.

While I like Zek, and I call him a good bloke from what I know of him, I don't like what he posted as I rekon that it misses the mark entirely in this particular case (though the stigma behind it is quite justified). You don't seem to be a stereotypical athiest, just an athiest. There is an enormous difference. Stereotypes and generalisations aren't good for too much, especially when taken as more in part of serious consideration. My advice for you comes in three parts; don't allow stereotypes of specific thiests nor 'a'thiests alter how you live and in what you believe (or do not), you are only concerning yourself with a problem that you created of yourself, get over the issue in whichever way you will and move on from there.


If you don't observe this advice, you will become a self loathing sour wanker with more problems than need be, like Prometheum here.

How am I self loathing?

It's pretty typical to pull ad hom attacks in this forum, but you could have done a lot better. "Smug and self obsessed" or "Adonis-like circle-jerker" would have been better than self loathing, because I'm clearly not that.

In any event, the stereotypic atheist, as perceived by a theist, is a goth-type statanist utterly devoid of morality. This is evident in the ever-present "ZOMG you're an atheist??? So you think it's okay to KILL PEOPLE?!?" fallacy.

Hahaha, I won't fall for that, Prometheum.

...In any event, the stereotypic atheist, as perceived by a theist, is a goth-type statanist utterly devoid of morality. This is evident in the ever-present "ZOMG you're an atheist??? So you think it's okay to KILL PEOPLE?!?" fallacy.

...what in the blue fuck?!! If anything, that is the most flawed statement made yet.

I agree with Prometheum, he isn't self loathing, he loathes other people.

...what in the blue fuck?!! If anything, that is the most flawed statement made yet.

I wouldn't think so. His statement refers to how sometimes christians generalize all those who are non christians as the worst people to walk the planet. Black and White. No in between with some of them. This would be from a christian perception of course. A lot of people tend to do this with conflicting believers.

Graemy, we more or less agree with each other on the first point. I made a minor mistake in how I presented my statement is all.

I'll take that step, and explain.

..It's pretty typical to pull ad hom attacks in this forum, but you could have done a lot better. "Smug and self obsessed" or "Adonis-like circle-jerker" would have been better than self loathing, because I'm clearly not that...

I wouldn't call that ad hominem because it wasn't meant for you to read, nor was I adressing you (that's key). You may call it that, and in hindsight that's fair enough, but really it was what I observed for example, and was for none but the OP to read. Perhaps I shouldn't have used the term 'self loathing' without providing enough context for you to understand my rationale - that any kind of loathing is self loathing...

..and that is one of the main points I was making of your choices to the OP. You've chosen to be one that will unneccessarily burden himself for no-ones benefit. Your atheism is self destructive. To choose to self destruct in loathing is really an element of self loathing, I feel. You could call the above heresay on the grounds that my perception may be incorrect, though, and I don't deny that. I'll be damned if what I say strays too far from what is right though.


NB. - If you were to burden yourself for someones benefit, ironically, it could be pointed out to be a very classical Christian act (depending on which branch's beliefs and values you are identified with).

- While I disagree with how you went about posting, I wouldn't lump you in with the wholly destructive 'agressive atheists' whom disgust me. Not at all, this is your choice. Just be careful what you push, please.

How am I self loathing?..

Once again, I lacked the foresight to define my interpretation of the term itself.
..It's what I took from reading your post, and was more than evident. It wasn't through stereotype or generalisation, either, if that was something you were trying to get at. So yes.. ..call it personal, or ad hominem, if I was indeed adressing you (which I wasn't). But I rekon that this is just a misunderstanding.

NB. Don't forget, that I wasn't even talking to you. So it is not my objective to share any of this with you.

...In any event, the stereotypic atheist, as perceived by a theist, is a goth-type statanist utterly devoid of morality. This is evident in the ever-present "ZOMG you're an atheist??? So you think it's okay to KILL PEOPLE?!?" fallacy.

...what in the blue fuck?!! If anything, that is the most flawed statement made yet.


But (as Prometheum is well aware) it isn't my intention to take this thread off track, so I will cease.

Graemy, we more or less agree with each other on the first point. I made a minor mistake in how I presented my statement is all.

I'll take that step, and explain.


But (as Prometheum is well aware) it isn't my intention to take this thread off track, so I will cease.

Right, I'll go along with that and not respond. However, I'd like to point out that theists don't have a monopoly on human kindness.

I'm not trolling, by the way. I only troll BI. I'm 100% serious everywhere else.

One more atheist faggot here to join the circlejerk.

Who's more close-minded: your friends, with their insistence on how Jesus died for their sins? Or you, with your insistence on there being no God, pretending to feel sorry for them to make yourself feel better than you are?

god hates fags

If they are smart people they will open themselves up to truth, reason, and new ideas. Hope that they are wise enough to see that the love of reason does not suggest the fallability of their faith.

If they are smart people they will open themselves up to truth, reason, and new ideas. Hope that they are wise enough to see that the love of reason does not suggest the fallability of their faith.

Of course and no matter of differences in beliefs, your point is like a word on the tip of the tongue that I didn't give the definition of form to. I am relieved in that you have said this, because now I won't have to labour.

IIRC I heard that you were an atheist, but honestly, I don't know what you are, nor do I think it matters for the only way in that it is of relevance to the point is in that a difference in beliefs doesn't stop your post from being universally valid. It only makes this an interesting point, and of course I totally fucken agree with your wise words.

Of course and no matter of differences in beliefs, your point is like a word on the tip of the tongue that I didn't give the definition of form to. I am relieved in that you have said this, because now I won't have to labour.

IIRC I heard that you were an atheist, but honestly, I don't know what you are, nor do I think it matters for the only way in that it is of relevance to the point is in that a difference in beliefs doesn't stop your post from being universally valid. It only makes this an interesting point, and of course I totally fucken agree with your wise words.

*looks from side to side*

...Wha--? People talk about me?

Thanks man. I'm a christian basically. But I think theres much more to life beyond the average christian scope you know? Buddhism, Taoism, Islam...its all relevant. They all have wisdom to share.

I wonder how your friends feel about evolution, big bang, and any other scientific theory.

Do they think that physics, geology, paleontology, biology, archaeology are a shit load of lies? I mean, what can be more convincing than a 2000 year old book?

They did know much more back then than we do now. Alchemy all the way dude!

I wonder how your friends feel about evolution, big bang, and any other scientific theory.

Do they think that physics, geology, paleontology, biology, archaeology are a shit load of lies? I mean, what can be more convincing than a 2000 year old book?

They did know much more back then than we do now. Alchemy all the way dude!

You have to remember though, it's God's book. God says so.

You have to remember though, it's God's book. God says so.

Well then it must be true. I don't want to question him. His power is too great.

Hey-oh. I'm a christian, in the sense that I believe in Christ. That's about all I have in common with "christians." Having read most of this thread and the OP, I think it all comes back to what it always does in this forum - open-mindedness. I think that if anyone is arrogant in their beliefs, then those beliefs are not worth much at all. I think that one must always be open to any evidence, viewpoint, etc that concerns anything about the concept of God. It's incredibly obvious that there can never be total surety in any view, so be accomodating, kind and even-tempered with people that hold other beliefs.

I feel really sorry for them. It's not that I have a problem with their religion specifically, but I feel as if they take things way too far.

I've found that it's a waste of time to feel sorry for others in situations like this. If they're really your friends, just try to enjoy your time with them.

They try ridiculously hard to pull some divine meaning from the bible, and whenever I attempt to inject them with truth and logic they quickly put up the jesus shield.

aka, an impenetrable force field of ignorance.

This is why they call it faith, and "faith" is belief without proof.

They also like to refer to atheism as a "religion" even though I try to explain to them that atheism is simply the omission from any belief of a god.

Carry a dictionary.

Why must they insist on maintaining a blind spot for their own religion's faults yet they are so easy to denounce another?

I have a feeling that this has less to do with their religion and more to do with their personalities.

To be honest, a four year old could put a few holes in the christian belief with a few simple questions.

For example:

"Mommy, why did Jesus descend into hell?"

"Why did God send Jesus to die on the cross and save people from their sins, when he could just done it instantly since he's god?"

Answers:

To save those who'd been sent to hell before his arrival i.e. Abraham.

Because Jesus' death on the cross was powerful symbol. Hell, the impacts of that gesture are still being felt today (see: Christianity). I can only imagine that if god exists he'd have known the above was the best solution and that simply magic-ing people into salvation was not.

Christians try too hard to cover up the holes in their beliefs with irrational logic. They also make nonsense excuses for god's absence of power.

I know, and I wish they wouldn't. Because, once again, that's why it's called faith.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not just another atheist douche bag who likes to insult religions. I understand that they're part of cultures and traditions, but it ails me to see my friends engage in such idiocy.

I know, but what can you really do? If they're truly your friends I suggest trying to look past their faults and have some fun. After all, if there is a god that's what I beleive he'd want.

I know that I will never get through to them. If only they could step out of their bubble of delusion to see the world with clarity.

Don't give up.

They are weak to depend on some magic savior as if he will really help them whatsoever. They blindly stumble around in the dark waiting for something to guide them, but of course they search to no avail. In their minds, their "savior" has touched their lives, but it's all in the mind. The mind makes what it wants out of things.

It's all illusions. They can be satisfying to give into, but they will be nothing more than mirages.

You may be right, but ultimately this is nothing but your own perception of them which might be far from the truth.

The lies you may or may not choose to believe don't matter.

at least not in the end.

Boy, ain't that the truth.

---

I am agnostic.

Hey-oh. I'm a christian, in the sense that I believe in Christ. That's about all I have in common with "christians." Having read most of this thread and the OP, I think it all comes back to what it always does in this forum - open-mindedness. I think that if anyone is arrogant in their beliefs, then those beliefs are not worth much at all. I think that one must always be open to any evidence, viewpoint, etc that concerns anything about the concept of God. It's incredibly obvious that there can never be total surety in any view, so be accomodating, kind and even-tempered with people that hold other beliefs.

Nice way of putting it. And therein lies faith and its importance.

It's all illusions. They can be satisfying to give into, but they will be nothing more than mirages.

The lies you may or may not choose to believe don't matter.

at least not in the end.

I'm agnostic, but people like you piss me the fuck off. It's fucking pointless to argue with people about religion and it makes you look like an arrogant ass hole believing you're so right when you have no more fucking proof then they do.

Religion wouldn't be the powerful force that it is today if it could be changed by the words of an arrogant wanna-be-know-it-all douche bag like you.

Stop trying to fucking convert people, no one gives a shit.